For the last time, there are no "mandates" in this law

[Recursion]

A "mandate" would be Congress passing a law saying "it is illegal for you to be without health insurance".

What Congress has done is say "if you don't buy health insurance, we will raise your taxes".

It's just like how they said "if you don't buy a house, we will raise your taxes". It's no more a "mandate" to get health insurance than the new homebuyer's tax credit and mortgage interest deduction are "mandates" to buy a house.

[zipplewrath]

1. It's a fine, not a tax

You will incur a fine, regardless of the amount of tax you owe (or don't owe). Beyond that, you are wandering into a semantic discussion.

I do think in the end the lawsuits are on pointless ground. The law can easily be rewritten to merely offer a reduction in taxes based upon demonstrating one has insurance. And all taxes can include a "health care tax" that is modeled on the fine structure in this bill. First, you calculate your health care tax, then on line 24 you deduct the cost of your premium, up to but not in excess of the tax.

[ixion]

2. ...

:eyes:

[Recursion]

3. I'm being crushed under this mandate I have to buy a house

The tax penalty for renting is an order of magnitude more than the tax penalty for not having insurance.

[DesertFlower]

11. i agree with you.

before we bought our house, we paid way too much in taxes. maybe renters should be allowed to claim a deduction.

[BuelahWitch]

4. Spin, spin, spin!

I hope your health insurance pays for anti-vertigo meds, cause you're gonna need 'em doing all that spinning!

[Recursion]

8. Are you breaking the mandate to buy a house?

I am.

[BuelahWitch]

9. If you buy a house you get a tax break

If you rent you don't. How does that equate with paying out the ass either way with this health insurance bill?
Next you'll be saying people are "mandated" to have kids or they're taxed for it...

[Recursion]

10. If you don't buy health insurance, your taxes go up

If you don't buy a house, your taxes go up.

Explain to me the difference you seem to see?

[BuelahWitch]

13. I haven't drunk the kool-aid, honey

Nor will I EVER drink that kool aid. You just keep telling yourself the shit sandwich is New York Strip...a lie is a lie is a lie.

[Recursion]

14. Then it should be easy for you to tell me the difference, right?

Cause I don't see the difference in two cases of Congress encouraging behavior through tax rates.

[Roland99]

18. Post #16.

[Recursion]

24. So it's really just that it's called a "fine" for not doing it rather than an "incentive"? NT

[BuelahWitch]

19. If I don't buy health insurance, I pay a FINE

Just like if I don't pay my car taxes on time. If I didn't have a car I wouldn't have to pay taxes on it. If I buy a house, I get a TAX BREAK.
Why don't you go bother Will Pitt? He doesn't agree with you either. But then I know you gun nuts get your jollies out of harassing women...

[Recursion]

21. Semantic nonsense

Call it a carrot or call it a stick.

If I buy a house, I get a TAX BREAK.

So it will make you feel better about this if they call it a discount for people with insurance rather than a fine for people without it? I know some people really cling to semantics, but geez...

But then I know you gun nuts get your jollies out of harassing women...

where the hell did that come from?

[Roland99]

26. There is no FINE for not buying a house.

Wow...to see such ignorance from a DUer.


sad.

[Recursion]

28. What's the difference?

I don't buy a house (actually, I don't get a mortgage) and my tax bill is a lot higher than the bill of a hypothetical me who did.

I don't get health insurance and my tax bill is a lot higher than the bill of a hypothetical me who did.

Why does it bother you so much that one situation is called a "fine" and the other is called an "incentive"?

[Roland99]

32. What bothers me, really, is having wasted more than 1 second with you.

*plonk*

[RaleighNCDUer]

29. How do my taxes go up if I don't buy a house?

I rent, I pay NO property taxes.

WTF?

[Recursion]

31. It's marketed as "your taxes go down if you buy a house"

The difference is just semantics. You get to deduct the interest on your mortgage. Your taxes go down when you buy a house (alternately, your taxes go up when you don't).

[RaleighNCDUer]

34. I think you have a little trouble distinguishing between 'up' and 'down'. nt

[Recursion]

36. In a sense, sure, it's a question of what you call it

We say "we're lowering your taxes for having a mortgage" and "we're raising your taxes for not having insurance". What's really the difference? The point is to encourage behavior by making people pay less when they do what Congress is encouraging them to do.

[WilliamPitt]

5. "For the last time..."

Somehow, I doubt that.

;)

[joanski0]

6. Also, I just heard Ron Wyden on the Senate

Floor say that the individual State's have the right to decide what to do about the people who don't want to get coverage. He also said he hoped the Attorneys General would drop these lawsuits and read the appropriate provision in the healthcare bill. The provision IS Constitutional.

[shotten99]

7. More like a tax discount if you have insurance already.

[lonestarnot]

12. Word jugglers piss me off.

[Recursion]

15. Yeah, whoever came up with the word "mandate" for this pisses me off, too. NT

[Roland99]

16. It *IS* a mandate. Don't buy a policy, owe a fine to the IRS. Guess what happens if you don't pay?

The IRS is coming after your ass.

[Recursion]

17. OK, how is that different from the "mandate" to buy a house?

Is it just that it's called a "fine" for the person who doesn't do it rather than a "discount" for the person who does? Talk about semantics...

[Roland99]

20. mandate to buy a house?

:wtf:

[BuelahWitch]

22. Yeah I know, the spin is unbelievable...

[Recursion]

23. Yeah, the mandate to buy a house

If raising your taxes if you don't buy health insurance is a "mandate", raising my taxes for not buying a house is a "mandate" too. The difference is, the mandate for buying a house is a ton bigger.

[Roland99]

25. Wow, can you be any more clueless as to this legislation? It's a FINE! A PENALTY

Understand that?

It's not an increase in taxes.


It's a FINE! Like if you had a speeding ticket.


It's a FINE payable to the IRS. Don't pay the IRS and they WILL come after you for evasion. Evasion can include JAIL TIME.

[Recursion]

30. Yes, if you don't pay your taxes you can go to jail

If I refuse to pay the extra money I owe in taxes for not having a mortgage, I go to jail too.

[ScreamingMeemie]

27. Holy cow...

Cuckoo bananas talk.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. The IRS is NOT going to come after me for renting. nt

[Recursion]

35. They sure will if you don't pay the (higher) amount of taxes you owe as a renter

I understand the general opinion is that I'm crazy, but I honestly don't see the difference between calling it an "incentive" or a "fine".

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. I don't owe 'higher taxes' for renting. I owe what I owe. I get no

tax BREAK on a mortgage, but then I also have no mortgage.

Should renters also get a tax break? Should renters be held accountable,and evicted, for their landlords not paying their taxes?

Different questions completely, and just as relevant as your nonsense.

[Recursion]

38. So you would be ok with it if they made a universal $950 health care tax and exempted the insured?

Is it just the word "fine" that pisses people off?

[RaleighNCDUer]

39. I don't know about 'people' but what pisses ME off is a mandate

to purchase insurance from for-profit companies, rather than a tax levy to support universal health care by a governmental non-profit agency along the lines of the Social Security administration or Medicare.

[Recursion]

40. Oh, yeah, I agree it's an absolutely stupid way to pay for health care

I just don't buy that using taxes to goad people into doing things is somehow novel.