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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 04:34 PM
Original message
McChrystal: "We have shot an amazing number of people, but... none has ever proven to be a threat."
Sorry, had to shorten the quote for the title:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/27/world/asia/27afghan.html

Tighter Rules Fail to Stem Deaths of Innocent Afghans at Checkpoints
By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.
Published: March 26, 2010

KABUL, Afghanistan — American and NATO troops firing from passing convoys and military checkpoints have killed 30 Afghans and wounded 80 others since last summer, but in no instance did the victims prove to be a danger to troops, according to military officials in Kabul.

“We have shot an amazing number of people, but to my knowledge, none has ever proven to be a threat,” said Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, who became the senior American and NATO commander in Afghanistan last year. His comments came during a recent videoconference to answer questions from troops in the field about civilian casualties.

Though fewer in number than deaths from airstrikes and Special Forces operations, ((!)) such shootings have not dropped off, despite new rules from General McChrystal seeking to reduce the killing of innocents. The persistence of deadly convoy and checkpoint shootings has led to growing resentment among Afghans fearful of Western troops and angry at what they see as the impunity with which the troops operate — a friction that has turned villages firmly against the occupation.

Failure to reduce checkpoint and convoy shootings, known in the military as “escalation of force” episodes, has emerged as a major frustration for military commanders who believe that civilian casualties deeply undermine the American and NATO campaign in Afghanistan. Many of the detainees at the military prison at Bagram Air Base joined the insurgency after the shootings of people they knew, said the senior NATO enlisted man in Afghanistan, Command Sgt. Maj. Michael Hall.

SNIP - PLEASE READ THIS, IT GETS WORSE


Comment by Chris Floyd:

http://chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1949-an-unaccustomed-truth-american-commander-admits-afghan-atrocities.html

An Unaccustomed Truth: American Commander Admits Afghan Atrocities

SNIP

One can only assume that the regular editors of the New York Times were all out at a party, or left early for a weekend in the Hamptons, or something -- but somehow, the paper published a front webpage story that stated -- without the usual thousand excuses and extenuations -- that American troops are routinely slaughtering Afghan civilians at checkpoints. What's more, the story unequivocally ties the civilian killings to the "surge" ordered by the noble Nobel Peace laureate, Barack Obama.

Here's what the Times says:

SNIP (QUOTE FROM NYT)

And what is the paper's authority for this astounding admission of atrocity? Not the usual "unnamed sources" or "senior official in a position to have knowledge of the situation," but none other than Obama's hand-picked commander on the Af-Pak front, General Stanley "Black Ops" McChrystal his own self:

SNIP (QUOTE FROM NYT)

Let's repeat the much-media-lauded general's statement again: “We have shot an amazing number of people, but to my knowledge, none has ever proven to be a threat." Now, what would the authorities say if you or I shot "an amazing number of people who have never proven to be a threat?" Why, they would call us murderers -- even mass murderers. Yet this is precisely what "the senior American and NATO commander in Afghanistan" has just declared, on videotape. The story goes on to make the extraordinarily straight -- and indisputable -- point that these wanton killings of civilians who have never even "proven to be a threat" is fanning the very "insurgency" (which is the Beltway term of art for any resistance to American military presence") whose quelling is the ostensible reason for the Laureate's "surge" in the first place:

SNIP (QUOTE FROM NYT)

The story even states plainly that the official figures of admitted killing of unthreatening civilians -- already unconscionably high -- might not be the true extent of these atrocities:

SNIP (QUOTE FROM NYT)

The story also presents an example of one slaughter of civilians, and shows how it leads directly to the rise of resistance against the American military presence:

SNIP (QUOTE FROM NYT)

SNIP

One unit could be doing counterinsurgency, while another carried out “a raid that might in fact upset progress,” General McChrystal explained during the videoconference.

SNIP

Again: what do you call it when innocent, unarmed, defenseless people who "have never proven to be a threat" are gunned down in cold blood? What do you call such an act?
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Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. In other words, none has caused us to sweat, or apologize.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. Murder.
Imagine if a foreign army were over here shooting innocent people, including children, who have never proven a threat to anyone. What would it be called here?
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Look how people flipped out when some Americans were killed in Mexico.
Now imagine if that happened several times a day for years.
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. it would be called most any big city
police department
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. The police department shoots random unarmed civilians at checkpoints on a regular basis?
Edited on Sat Mar-27-10 06:39 PM by JackRiddler
Amazing, truly.

EDIT: And yes I am aware of police shootings. But it's not comparable.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. Recommended.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. Can we please go home now?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. You'd think little more would need to be said!
McChrystal, the antiwar witness.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. What???
OK, we've admitted that this a murderous and futile endeavor.
Can we bring them home now?
Have you told the President? Or rather, what have you told the President?
Why don't you then, tell us why we are there?
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. K and R # 11 nt
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. Mostly crickets - incredible. Imagine...
The same McChrystal, who was originally advanced to a command position in Afghanistan under Bush (before he got a further promotion last year), and who bears responsibility for the torture complexes there, having made the same incredible statement while Bush was still president.

This thread would have 90 posts and 200 recommendations, for all the good that would represent. But this would be reflective of a genuine outrage and determination to see the atrocity in our name end.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. It's an important story to be sure, but not particularly surprising...
Was anyone really unaware that we're killing scads of uninvolved civilians on a regular basis?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. When the commander of the operation himself knocks out its own justification, that's a big deal.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
36. a big fucking deal
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Welcome to the game of "winners," "losers," and "sides".
Now that Democrats are in charge, we need to downplay this kind of thing, don't you know.

K & R
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Sad, isn't it? The 'left' is now silent
Cheers for pictures of the president with the troops, though. Just like the right did when Bush posed for similar photo-ops.

I wonder what it will take to arouse Americans out of their apathy regarding what their government is doint to the people of Iraq and Afghanistan? Would this excellent reporting produced by Robert Greenwald (a hero to the left when Bush was president) move them at all in sympathy towards the victims of this war? I know it would if Bush were president still.

Rethink Afghanistan
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. The real left isn't silent
Only the party over country types are.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. knr. We are mass murderers.
Get out now.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. We need to leave NOW
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. Winning friends for America.... one round at a time!...nt
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
18. The NYT article appears to contradict itself.
Though fewer in number than deaths from airstrikes and Special Forces operations, such shootings have not dropped off, despite new rules from General McChrystal seeking to reduce the killing of innocents.


...does not jibe with

Shootings from convoys and checkpoints involving American, NATO and Afghan forces accounted for 36 civilian deaths last year, down from 41 in 2008, according to the United Nations. With at least 30 Afghans killed since last June in 95 such shootings, according to military statistics, the rate shows no signs of abating.


:shrug:

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. The number hasn't dropped off since McChrystal supposedly
issued new rules.

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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Gotcha.
...but it has dropped off. Despite 17,000 additional troops and a 25% increase in airstrike operational tempo, I'd add.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I believe his so called rule change wasn't too long ago. Maybe a month
or so.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. IIRC you're correct.
He did assume command in June, however, and instituted sweeping changes in engagement.

Just not, it appears, at checkpoints. :(
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. You're not really hanging a case on that difference, are you?
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Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Hey! we're on-track to kill as many civilians this year as we did last year
at least the number dropped by 5 from 08 - 09... oh wait, these force escalation numbers " do not include shooting deaths caused by convoys guarded by private security contractors. Some tallies have put the total number of escalation of force deaths far higher."

wtf are you talking about?
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. You're not actually interested, I don't think
...but in the unlikely event I've misread you and you wish to have a fact-based conversation, pro-government forces killed 596 civilians in 2009, 28% fewer than in 2008. Anti-government entities killed 1,630 civilians in 2009, 41% more than in 2008.

That the situation is still untenable is obvious; claiming it is not improving, however, is simply false.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Where do these body counts come from and what makes them reliable?
Please source. Thank you.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. I'd appreciate it if you could give a citation on these figures for deaths in the war.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
28. K&R
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
29. kick
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. We have shot. an amazing. number. of people. But none. has ever proven. to be a threat.
Edited on Mon Mar-29-10 04:01 PM by JackRiddler
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Everyone needs to take his comment to heart.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
34. Democracy Now with a different view of Afghan war today...
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
35. K&R
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
37. kicky wicky
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