Toyota’s Acceleration Issue Due to Electronics, Experts Say

[Omaha Steve]

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/32292/

By Gary Feuerberg Epoch Times Staff

WASHINGTON—After recalling over 8 million vehicles worldwide, Toyota Motor Corp. has been on a PR campaign to repair its reputation as well as repair mechanical issues related to sudden acceleration in its vehicles.

But a panel of electrical engineers say that the issue lies in electronics, not mechanical parts, and that Toyota is taking the wrong approach in its investigations, according to a March 23 news conference in Washington.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/mambots/content/multithumb/thumbs/350.0.1.0.16777215.0.stories.large.2010.03.29.Armstrong_Mar23_10+008M.jpg
British Electronics and EMI expert Eurling Keith Armstrong says it's bad science when automakers deny design fault and software bugs that can cause unintended vehicle accelerations when they can�t find them. He spoke March 23 at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. (Gary Feuerberg/The Epoch Times)


“Electronics have weaknesses and can go wrong in many ways,” said Euring Keith Armstrong, an electronics expert. “Many electronic throttles are not safe enough, but it is easier to blame drivers, floormats, and sticky pedals.”

Anthony Anderson, an electrical failure expert, and Brian Kirk, a safety software expert agree. All three engineers are from the U.K. Their observations about the behavior of electronics in automobiles is no different than the way electronics behaves in all other industries and is backed up by scientific standards and peer-reviewed papers.

Questions about sudden, unintended acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles are raised every time an incident hits the news. On March 8 James Sikes’s Prius accelerated to 90 miles per hour and could not be stopped on a San Diego freeway by application of the brakes. Unable to replicate the problem, Toyota said that Sikes’s account has little merit.

In another well-publicized case, Mark Saylor, an off-duty California Highway Patrol trooper, died with three members of his family on Aug. 28, 2009, when his 2009 Lexus sped out of control and crashed in Santee, Calif.

On March 25, the Los Angeles Times reported 102 deaths because of sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles.

FULL story at link.

[FiveGoodMen]

1. K&R

[xultar]

2. Where is my sweetie???? I know you're lurking.

[librechik]

3. if you are talking about the dozen or so Toyota Rules and is Infallible folks

I'm sure they'll be along to poop on this thread any minute now.

[PBS Poll-435]

10. I was busy!

:hi:

[xultar]

12. I was getting jealous. Whew!

[PBS Poll-435]

22. :( Glad to see ya, though.

:D

[DainBramaged]

14. When criminal charges are brought by the Justice Department against toYOYOta

and the families of those killed win BILLIONS of dollars in settlements, I will think of you and will laugh my ass off.

[PBS Poll-435]

16. The only criminal things I see so far are

Are a recommendation by police in Japan to charge a driver with negligence and a criminal indictment in Norway against another Prius driver.

:shrug:

[Omaha Steve]

55. Toyota may face criminal probe in Canada

You must have missed this in latest breaking news a few weeks ago.


http://www.globalwinnipeg.com/Toyota+face+criminal+probe+Canada/2697613/story.html

Canwest News Service: Thursday, March 18, 2010

Transport Minister John Baird acknowledged the possibility of a criminal investigation into Toyota's management of the recent safety defects and recalls on its vehicles as he tabled about 2,500 pages of evidence at a parliamentary committee on Thursday.

Baird said he could not, as a minister of the Crown, order a police investigation, but he said that his department was probing why Toyota did not immediately notify the government that it was looking into a potential safety defect with accelerator pedals prior to issuing a massive recall in January.

"I think what we need to do is review what has happened, particularly since last November, October or even going back to September, (and) look at what we can learn from that to make the roads safer," Baird said after appearing at the committee.

He said he asked his deputy minister to review testimony this week by Toyota officials at parliamentary hearings and that he has confidence that department officials will carefully examine all evidence before making a decision.

"In all recalls, with respect to manufacturers or importers, you look at whether there was a reasonable standard of care," said Baird. "Obviously, in Canada we regulate under criminal power and there's a high threshold that's demonstrably higher, for example, than civil liability."

[sailor65]

4. The article doesn't mention whether

this panel has done any ECM testing on its own. It doesn't sound like these guys have though.

[Tesha]

5. So in other words, they have no actual evidence. (NT)

[anigbrowl]

6. Just an FYI...

I have no opinion on the claims being made here or on Toyota, but you might like to find a different report. The epoch Times is a kinda of dubious source - it's the newspaper of the Falun Gong movement and their journalistic standards are wildly inconsistent. I take anything I see in there with a big pinch of salt.

[upi402]

7. Thanks for the info. I avoided getting a Toyo due to electronic lag feel of acceleration

and brakes too for that matter. Just had that digital camera shutter delay feel and I thought there'd be times when I wasn't in direct mechanical control.

That said, when this hit and all I heard in the MSM was about floor mats... I poo-pooed it. This assertion makes sense to me just in light of my anecdote.

[TexasObserver]

8. K&R

[lefty2000]

9. What Would NASA Do?

The shuttle has three flight computers at all times. The computers monitor each other's behavior and compare results. If one computer disagrees with the other two, the outlier gets voted down. Only a simultaneous, identical failure in two computers at the same time could produce a disastrous electronics failure.

A triply redundant electronic throttle control system could be installed and this problem would go away (if it really is caused by electronics).

[IDemo]

18. Toyota uses two processors

Which do as you describe - cross check input voltages (there are two) from the pedal and throttle position sensors, and trigger a failsafe in thousandths of a second if there is disagreement.

Here's a short video explaining how the throttle control system works ->
http://storage.cdncontent.com.s3.amazonaws.com/tms/pageav/5/4/3/0/0/154300/etcs_section_03_hd_diagnosis_02_20_h264.mov

A longer 'webinar' features some of the testing for RFI/EMI/ESD that Toyota practices -> http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/2010-toyota-electronic-throttle-154266.aspx

I'm as convinced as anyone that it is an electronics fail causing most if not all of the cases reported. But Toyota puts in a pretty hefty amount of testing, generally exceeding standard requirements. I'm more inclined to believe there are circuitboard manufacturing issues, faulty components, marginal soldering, or latent ESD damage to blame.

[backscatter712]

24. Close.

The shuttle has five computers, running simultaneously and voting on everything they do.

And some of them run a completely different codebase than the other computers, engineered to accept the same input and generate exactly the same output as the baseline software.

[Romulox]

34. It would use US Taxpayer monies to subsidize Toyota's QA research, apparently...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4325533

[PBS Poll-435]

11. Cosmic rays one day, EMI the next.

:shrug:

[harkadog]

13. If it is electronics how come the sudden accelaration

overwhelmingly affects older drivers? If it is electronic the age group should be random.

[DainBramaged]

15. Where is you information from, citation please.............

You want real links and citations, read my journal, until then, if you can't provide proof, don't spew that toYOYOta garbage here.

[PBS Poll-435]

17. Here is a graphy that I found

But take it with a grain of salt, I guess. ;-)




Data from chart referenced in the Car Connection via the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10074/1043035-185.stm

[TexasObserver]

26. That you think this supports your arguments is amusing, at best.

I'd love to hear your explanation of how this graph proves anything relevant to this discussion.

You probably skipped the part buried in the story:

There are several caveats. The data does not represent all incidents reported to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), because those reports do not specify the complainant's (or driver's) age.

Moreover, the age distribution of all sudden-acceleration complainants should be mapped against the age distribution of Toyota buyers overall, to ensure it's not representative.



Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10074/1043035-185.stm#ixzz0jdkqzW0R

[DainBramaged]

30. From you, I wouldn't take pepper.

[Romulox]

33. Unless *I* am misreading that chart, it shows that highest # of deaths is in the 22-30 age range

What point did you think you were making by posting this? :silly:

[DainBramaged]

39. They are throwing everything against the wall hoping it will stick

unfortunately, the courts will have the final say, and the YOYO PR brigade will be left holding the pedal.

[PBS Poll-435]

41. Math. Statistics. The Truth

Just throwing it all on the wall to see what sticks...



:eyes:

[PBS Poll-435]

40. Please use teh Google

To find statistics.

It will help.




(You do realize that MV accidents (in any car/make/model) are the leading cause of death for that age group, right?)

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus10.html

[Romulox]

50. The chart is labeled "Toyota Unintended Acceleration / Vehicle-Related Deaths vs. Age".

The chart shows that the highest number of deaths for TOYOTA UNINTENDED ACCELERATION (not general accidents) is in the 22-30 year old age range.

It shows precisely the opposite of what you offered it to prove. :rofl: :hi:

[NoGOPZone]

66. You're reading the chart wrong

The orange rectangle is the unintended acceleration deaths. It's lowest for the 22-30 Age Group.

[Romulox]

67. I see my mistake. I suppose the un-captioned line is meant to represent volume

of Toyota ownership?

Even this isn't the correct metric. It should be by miles driven.

[harkadog]

43. An electronic problem would have nothing to do with the number of deaths.

The number of incidents is what is important. That should be random in age. It is not.

[TexasObserver]

47. Not true, at all.

You're doing something we call "assuming facts not in evidence." If you want to analyze the Toyota data on the graph, you have to know (1) how many miles in troubled Toyota models is each age group driving, and (2) how much more likely are the young, stupid and impetuous to ignore reporting unintended accelerations than are older drivers?

But your thinking is obviously flawed, as a comparison between Toyotas and Nissans sold in America between 2005-2009 proved. If your supposition was correct, Toyota would not have 12 times as many reported incidents of unintended acceleration per vehicle sold, as compared to Nissan, per vehicle sold. If your supposition regarding age was correct, we would see the same incidence of reported unintended acceleration for Nissan as for Toyota. The 1200% difference tells the sane, rational person that Toyota has a design flaw Nissan does not have.

[harkadog]

48. You are saying if someone is young they are stupid and impetuous?

Talk about assuming facts not in evidence. That is what you must be saying to assume that older people don't have the same rates of being stupid and impetuous. Speaking of evidence you provided no links to your assertions.

[TexasObserver]

54. Do I need to explain to you the difference between a statement and a question?

The QUESTION I asked was, in pertinent part:

" ...how much more likely are the young, stupid and impetuous to ignore reporting unintended accelerations than are older drivers?

I said quite clearly that this was something one would need to know in order to make any sense of the data you so proudly endorse. Either come up with that data, or admit that your conclusion is completely asinine and without basis.

[harkadog]

56. You are one the challenging it.

You come up with the data which you think disproves it. But the paid Toyota bashers will do their best to help you. Good luck.

[TexasObserver]

57. You're reduced to claiming there are "paid Toyota bashers"?

I accept your surrender and promise humane treatment for you and your fellow Toyota supporters.

[Omaha Steve]

58. "PAID" ???

I swear I do this without any form of payment. Busting the myth is more of a very fun hobby. You meet all kinds of doubters. :-)

Omaha Steve

[harkadog]

60. Maybe if you got paid you would do a better job.

Because you are not doing well so far.

[Omaha Steve]

61. You cut me to the quick

I bow to your superior car intelligence. So do the other people NOT buying TOYOTAS these days. We are so glad you are on the high road. In a toyota, you will probably get to the end of that road unexpectedly before the rest of us.


But then I've posted well over 50 credible articles that slam Toyota since this started. How many re defenders of Toyota in the car industry have YOU posted?

[harkadog]

62. I know science and statistics.

That is all I need to know to debunk most of the Toyota bashing nonsense. Toyota is still selling well despite the attempts to extort money by some out of work lawyers. Being in the legal field I know the smell of something that is dirty and rotten and this was stinks.

[Omaha Steve]

63. You must have missed the reply farther up

The Canadian Government is not out of work lawyers. But the word criminal means Toyota may have to hire a few more.

[harkadog]

65. I am happy you have confidence in prosecutors

to do the right thing. I don't.

[Omaha Steve]

49. Great reply

Thank you.

[Romulox]

51. That's not logical. nt

[harkadog]

53. Because you say so I guess.

[Romulox]

68. No, because it's a nonsense sentiment.

"An electronic problem would have nothing to do with the number of deaths."

Unless it has a problem in the throttle control system, you must mean. :eyes:

[harkadog]

69. No I don't mean that.

An electronic problem would result in random incidents and would be random in the age groupings. The number of deaths associated with those incidents could be as the result of many factors. I guess older people just happen to buy Toyota's with the electronic glitchs. Who knew?

[Romulox]

70. That's *inductive*, not *deductive* logic you're applying there...

There's no rational reason to assume incidents will be random--after all, the incidents are centered around one manufacturer's cars, not generally among the automobile manufacturers.

It's just as likely that a component in their higher end computer/electronic throttle control system is off, and that these pricier models fall more squarely in the hands of older drivers.

At any rate, if you can't explain why this isn't happening in Buicks, your theory has major holes. :hi:

[harkadog]

71. They do and have happened in other cars

The Audi 5000 was the boogy man in the 1980s but thousands of cases were reported in all makes and models from 1980-2000. The government investigated and could find no mechanical or electronic defect. GM found that older drivers were 6 times as likely to report this problem as younger drivers. Short people were more likely to report than average sized people. People that were unfamiliar with the car (parking lot attendants, etc.) were more likely to report than people familiar with the car. Conclusion: People put their foot on the gas when intending to put their foot on the brake. I don't expect you will investigate any of this because you have an agenda. Big foreign car companies = evil. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/opinion/11schmidt.html

[Romulox]

72. We are talking about Toyota in 2010, not Audi in the 1980s.

"I don't expect you will investigate any of this because you have an agenda."

I love it when some nobody comes out with an accusation like this that implies some knowledge of me or my motivations. :silly:

[harkadog]

73. And in 2020 you will be talking about the _______, not Toyota in the 2010s.

There will be always be a new one around the corner because a new set of people will be old. I don't have any knowledge of you but I can tell from your posts that you are a Toyota hater and turn a blind eye to any facts that are put before you. At least some of the haters who post here are honest about their affiliation with American car companies.

[harkadog]

20. There's your graph

I'm glad another poster looked it up for you because I would never answer your garbage.

[PBS Poll-435]

21. I probably will not be graced with a response, either

Oh well.


:)

[DainBramaged]

29. Garbage this with your answer.

Merry Christmas and keep those cards and letters coming, oh wait, I'll never see your responses again, so sad, too too bad.

[harkadog]

44. You have told me that several times now.

I guess you can't help but stalk me.

[Omaha Steve]

31. Then why don't we see older drivers making the mistakes on other makers cars?

Or why don't we see spikes in sudden acceleration BEFORE electronic controls?

Toyota has a problem they either can't figure out, or won't tell what they really know!

[DainBramaged]

32. The toYOYOta PR brigade can't answer logical questions

Why bother?

[PBS Poll-435]

37. Saw an '03 Buick crash into a Farmers Market a few years ago

Killed 10 and injured 55+.

[Omaha Steve]

45. LA Times: Toyotas' sudden acceleration blamed for more deaths March 26

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/26/business/la-fi-toyota-deaths26-2010mar26

Including a recent surge of complaints, the defect has been raised as a possible cause of 102 fatalities, according to NHTSA records, lawsuits and police reports.

AUTOMOBILESMarch 26, 2010|By Stuart Pfeifer

More than 100 deaths have now been blamed on sudden acceleration of Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles, nearly twice the number that had been reported two months ago, according to a Times review of public records.

With a recent surge of complaints to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration factored in, sudden acceleration has been raised as a possible cause of crashes involving Toyota vehicles that led to 102 deaths, according to NHTSA records, lawsuits and police reports.


So ONE Buick equals the multiple of Toyotas? And again why aren't others (besides Buick) having this trouble in equal percentage numbers?

[Last Stand]

42. I'm not old and my accelerates unexpectedly when I mess with cruise control.

Or is this just early onset confusion?

I'll have to say, I did wonder if I was nuts when it happened the first time.

[OhioChick]

19. K&R n/t

[Canuckistanian]

23. There's a LOT of engineering that goes into Fail-Safe systems

Like "fly-by-wire" aeronautic controls or nuclear power plant systems.

I doubt the same expertise went into Toyota cars selling for 20k or under.

Back to the drawing board, guys.

[eridani]

25. Toyota is not the only manufacturer of cars with this problem, correct?

Why not eliminate the electronics and go back to mechanical linkages?

[Kalun D]

27. Electronic

It's probably electronic interference, like cell phone or some other. The pedal and throttle body have double redundancy but there is only one control unit. They need to double that.

they need to do whatever they've done with all the airbag systems, they are at least as complicated electronically and they've had virtually no false deployments.

I think the bad press is being exaggerated because other corps want to drag them down, they are becoming dominate and they are making too many hi mileage vehicles to suit the oil companies.

[IDemo]

28. Two processors are used - see post #18 n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Epoch TImes? You have to be kidding me

That is about as flaky a source as there is.

That said, what was purportedly said is the percentage bet. However, it is yet to be duplicated in the lab and some cases have been ruled to have other causes. The bubbas in the articles have not demonstrated it either.

I am strongly for good science and this is not good science

[Romulox]

36. I don't remember you protesting the posting of the Toyota press release...

:shrug:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

64. My comments on this issue have been consistent with good engineering practice

Find the root cause(s) that can be demonstrated. Until then, its just inference and speculation. The bubbas in the article have not done it, so they are no better standing on this than anybody else. Saying it must be in a particular area but its too complex to find is a cop out.

[Lance_Boyle]

38. I wondered about these Toyota problems - are they only happening in the US?

Toyota sells cars all over the world. I would imagine the electronics are fairly standardized regardless of where a model is assembled or sold. So are Toyotas all over the world having this acceleration issue, or is it only (primarily?) in the US? I have not heard reports of failed Toyotas outside of the US.

[Omaha Steve]

46. Mar 24, 2010 4:29 pm US/Central (AP)

http://cbs2chicago.com/consumer/toyota.lawsuits.acceleration.2.1587398.html

Snip: Toyota has been hit with an avalanche of lawsuits that potentially could cost the company billions of dollars following its recall of more than 8 million vehicles >>>WORLDWIDE<<< over sudden unexpected acceleration, including about 6 million in the U.S. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has linked 52 deaths to the accelerator problems, which Toyota has blamed on floor mats that can snag accelerator pedals or pedals that sometimes stick.

[Romulox]

52. They recalled millions of cars in Japan, Europe, Canada, too.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=toyota+worldwide+recall

[madokie]

59. I'd about bet money on it being in the programing

sometimes all the variables that it may take to make it go crazy can't always be duplicated in the lab or on purpose and thats why they're having a hard time figuring it out. Fail safes should have been there from the get go no matter what and to me that is where the criminal element should and may enter in.