How many times can a person get 'Born Again'?

[AnArmyVeteran]

Once you are 'born again' it's like becoming a member of an exclusive club where only those who are fellow 'born again' Christians can belong. But I have seen countless stories of born again Christians who have fallen off the wagon and then gotten 'reborn again'. Just how many times can you get 'reborn'. My dad used to joke about Christians who would commit a crime, then get saved, commit another crime, get saved again, and on and on. I guess if you die at the right part of that cycle then you go to heaven, otherwise, you go to hell.

It's all so confusing! I've talked with 'born again' Christians and they truly believe if people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and other ruthless mass murderers said they 'believed' in Jesus just before dying they would go to heaven, but people who have been good, decent people, who have worked for others all their lives would go to hell if they didn't say the magic words to be 'saved'.

Is their God that vindictive and hateful? And if they believe even Hitler can get to go to heaven if he said 'I believe' just before his last breath do they believe God is really that gullible?

I am not anti-Christian or any anti any religion. I believe there are millions of decent Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus. I am just wondering what kind of thought processes they go through to figure out who is truly 'born again' and worthy of a 'pleasant' hereafter. I believe in redemption because everyone makes mistakes, but I can't see Hitler going to heaven while others who have sacrificed for others throughout their lives will go to hell.

The latest story about the Michigan militia group just arrested for plots against the government were Christians who believed in using violence to achieve their goals. How can a Christian support violence of any kind? And why would a Christian even think about owning a gun as self-defense if they say they truly believe in Jesus and the Ten Commandments? I suppose they don't believe in the "Thou shalt not kill" part of the Ten Commandments.

[Matariki]

1. Their God sounds really insecure or something

needing to be 'believed in' more than anything else, lol.

[DCKit]

3. Needy, needy, needy. You should see his facebook page. n/t

[AnArmyVeteran]

21. Does God have a Facebook page??? How can He 'friend' me?

[DCKit]

2. Nor do they believe in "Thou shalt not judge" or "Thou shalt not commit adultry".

And it hasn't slowed them down one bit.

[AnArmyVeteran]

13. And what about the commandment comparing women to property?

The Tenth Commandment states, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's". This commandment equates a woman to an ox, ass and a slave (ie: manservant). Of course, the Bible was written strictly by men so I can understand their bias against women and how they believed women should always be subservient to men. But I wonder how many Christians believe their wives should be compared to material possessions, and especially barnyard creatures?

I understand the intent of the commandment, but surely if this commandment was truly inspired by the will of God, I believe with all His 'perfection' that God could have written with a bit more clarity so us lowly earthlings could understand it better.

BTW, I agree with you that it seems as if they are selective in the commandments they choose to follow. A lot of Christians tend to judge others more than other groups. And there sure are a lot of republican Christians who love to commit adultery. What I find fascinating is that republican Christians seem to be eager to forgive republican christians who sin, but are foaming at the mouth ready to condemn any democrat or liberal who sins. Look at the long list of republicans who are still in office who have committed worse sexual sins than President Clinton and who demanded he resign, yet they are refusing to leave their offices for committing worse transgressions.

[DCKit]

27. Apparently Democrats, by definition, can't be Christian.

If you think the wailing, bitching and moaning is bad now, imagine the state they'd be in if WE all disappeared one day. Shit, they wouldn't even be able to feed themselves.

They'd go into Xtian overdrive, and still not be able to get it right. The witch-hunts and Inquisition would be back in full-force within a week 'cause it's always somebody else's fault.

[AnArmyVeteran]

29. Right DCKit...

Without liberals or democrats right wingers would demonize someone else. Hell, they are even demonizing themselves condemning members of their own movement because they aren't radical enough. Their hatred will only end when there is one of them left standing after their circular firing squad and that person will even turn on himself.

[el_bryanto]

4. The terminology implies that it shouldn't be done on the cheap

If one is born again it implies you are a new creature. In theory that should be a big deal.

That said the forgiveness implied is appealing to certain mentalities (con man types who are good at lying to themselves) - either you can just keep repenting cheaply or you are simply pure and anything sin you commit isn't really sin.

Bryant

[muffin1]

5. As Dennis Miller once said (back when he was funny),

How many times can you pull this shit? Can you be born again, and again, and again, like some kind of evangelical Gabor sister?

[AnArmyVeteran]

22. Hi Muffin!!! Miller used to be funny, before he learned he could make money exploiting right wingers

[MajorChode]

35. I never thought he was funny even then

Which is why his so-called humor is even more perplexing to me.

[xultar]

6. No limit. You screw up, murder, rape, you can be born again.

[Warpy]

7. It's been my understanding that it's only once

after the original birth, of course, although some do go through the ritual again if they feel a particular need to hedge their bets or gain absolution or simply restate their pledge to Jebus.

In any case, there is no need for it for anybody who buys into the Dispensationalist heresy that says once a person goes through the ritual, his ticket for heaven is permanently punched no matter what he does on earth, to go through it more than once.

There's no harm in getting dunked repeatedly unless a minister gets tired enough of a frequent backslider that he holds him under water too long. It's just not necessary.

[slackmaster]

8. Many years ago there was a guy living in an alley near my apartment, who died every night

He was born again every day when the liquor store opened.

[AnArmyVeteran]

15. LOL Slackmaster!

[ChairmanAgnostic]

9. depends on which sins you just committed.

If it's a REALLY big one, say, sexual abuse of children, then you have to the whole thing, without anesthetic, and absolutely no C-Section.

[Juche]

10. According to Mr. Show, about 4 times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFo8NGO4nTA



Either way, you are confusing compassionate christians with authoritarian christians. They aren't the same thing by any means.

[yurbud]

11. when I was leaving the Evangelical movement, one of my leaders asked if I had really been

born again the FIRST time.

That was kind of a final kick out the door.

If you start questioning your own motives that much, you'd end up chasing your tail into a mental hospital (which does happen to some Evangelicals).

[emulatorloo]

12. "Born Again" once. There is no "Reborn". If you fall off the wagon, you "Re-dedicate your life

to Christ." At least that's how it went in the fundy chrurch I grew up in.

So there is no "reborn again" in the fundy doctrine.

[grantcart]

16. Correct, and in fact it is not something you do, you are 'receiving the Holy Spirit'

Once you have received it there is no need to get it again you just have to rededicate yourself to what you already have.

[AnArmyVeteran]

17. Ok, so let me get this straight...

You can be born from a womb. Then you can be 'reborn'. And after you fall off the 'reborn' wagon then you can 'rededicate' your life. But this leads to the next question. How many times can you 'rededicate' your life? Or is there yet another step in the process? Good god I am confused!!!

[Caliman73]

32. I believe they call it being born into the spirit

The title "Born Again" is an external moniker. They may sometimes say I was "reborn into the spirit". Baptism is called a rebirth. Most Christian traditions recognize only one baptism. If you make a mistake in life do you just stop what you are doing or rush headlong into more serious problems along the same path? Re-dedication is typically just acknowledging that you were not following the teachings of Christ, and vowing to do so. There is a difference between Many Christian traditions and Catholicism, which is what I was brought up in. Many Christian traditions believe that only faith can save you. Catholics believe that works without faith are meaningless and faith without works are equally meaningless. Therefore for many Christian traditions, what you believe is more important than what you do. All Christian traditions, including Catholicism, and most other religious and spiritual traditions take into account that humans frequently fall from grace, or are weak, or however they frame it. Most have a way in which to re-establish a connection to the deity. People who believe in being "born again" simply believe that a personal re-dedication is what is important. Catholics believe that you have to acknowledge your sin, confess, make amends, and have reconciliation in order to re-establish that connection.

[RainDog]

52. fundamentalists differ from charismatics on being "born into the spirit"

both believe in being "born again," as in all humans, as a condition of existence, are born as sinful creatures - separated from god by the simple fact of their humanness. b/c of free will, no human is born "saved."

to be "saved," someone is "born again" as a christian and becomes part of the "body of christ" - a metaphor for the church. being born again is also a metaphor for remaking ones life in a way that puts service to god first in all actions, rather than things like greed, ambition, etc.

fundamentalists do not believe that the events depicted in the book of Acts have relevance in today's world. pentacostals do. pentacostals believe that speaking in tongues is a current manifestation of god. both groups believe in miracles and in the ability of god to interfere in everyday human lives.

fundies from when I was a kid did not use the terminology or idea of "born in the spirit"- this is really a term from the pentacostals who also believe in being "slain in the spirit" - an event that can occur more than once - when the god's presence is so powerful that it literally knocks the person off his or her feet (with a little push from a charismatic pastor?) for fundie the issue was being reborn as a child of god, with forgiveness for the sin of being human as part of the deal. forgiveness, but not permission to do anything b/c of that forgiveness.

however, if someone acted outside of the law or moral code, that person was not then "unsaved." that person was a backslider who had "fallen away" from the church.

the baptists emphasized the phrase "by grace you have been saved through faith. that's not of yourself. that's a gift from god." this is why they say that "works" are not enough to get you to heaven. you have to have faith in god and the works from that point on are the "fruits" of your faith - i.e. your new relationship as a child of god would logically make you change your behavior.

if someone claimed to be born again and did horrific things, people might doubt their conversion but would ultimately say it is for god to judge if a person was born again and saved while committing crimes, or if that person was a liar.

there's also an "unforgiveable sin" that was always a little strange for me to figure out.

"blasphemy against the holy spirit" is an unforgivable sin, according to the fundie view of the KJV. this means that someone denies christianity, as far as I can tell, tho many nights my friends and I would ask ourselves if we had blasphemed the holy spirit... it's sort of like a fundie version of the campfire story with a flashlight under your chin.

[AnArmyVeteran]

56. Thanks for the insightful rundown RainDog, but...

If the Bible was written with the spirit of God then why are there so many interpretations of it? You would think that an all knowing, perfect God could inspire the writing of something that is concrete, with no room for wildly different interpretations. There are a couple of thousand Christian churches (brands) and all of them interpret the Bible differently. If God was truly 'perfect' then every Christian would have the identical beliefs. And why do people have to be Biblical scholars spending their entire lives studying the Bible just to try to understand it. And even no two Biblical scholars agree. If the saying "Simplicity is genius" is true, then 'God' is a blooming idiot.

Maybe God had a lot of brain farts during the writing of the Bible and left out huge portions that could have explained all the hocus pocus contained within it. I have read the Bible countless times and with each reading it led to more doubt. Why were only men allowed to participate in the writing of the Bible? Why was the Bible written before the printing press was invented. Why did God send his 'son' to earth during such a primitive time when no media could record him? If I was 'God' I think that I would have waited just a couple more thousand years to send my 'son' to earth, after all, since 'God' always was and always will be 2,000 years is like a fraction of a second to him.

It is awfully convenient how all major religions were created (concocted) during primitive times.

[RainDog]

57. religion made me an atheist

I detest religion for the most part - because I was raised among the religious - tho what someone chooses to believe is his or her own private opinion and if religion helps someone get through the day, then I see no problem with it.

I would never put my children into a church. They were raised to believe that religions are myths that some people still want to believe.

but again, their business.. until it begins to interfere with policy. Then I see a big problem with it. no matter what the religion.

I was telling you what I learned while growing up. I think it's bullshit all around.

But Sarah Palin, for instance, is not a fundie. She's a pentacostal who believes in current divine revelation (the fundies, on the other hand, think revelation ended when the Paulists got to kick everyone else to the curb.)

She's like John Ashcroft in this respect - tho he seems to have more moral substance and less attraction to trailer trash drama. But remember his annointing with oil?

Palin believes in speaking in tongues, or at least the place where she goes to church does. Her religious group is promoting her as "Queen Esther." That's an important thing to note about their support for her.

What I'm trying to say is that, tho Falwell was a repulsive man, he did not rise to the level of stupidity that Palin does in religious beliefs. It's a matter of degree, but it does matter to some people who claim faith, or used to.

When I was growing up, Pentecostals were viewed as more ignorant than fundies. Outside of it all, it all seems like the same heebee jeebee but they create distinctions in belief.

If people want to create divisions in the r.r. - they should highlight the things the different factions dislike about one another. that's why it's useful to know the difference.

also, in the overwhelmingly fundie protestant south, catholics were viewed as somehow compromised b/c of their different way of faith - i.e. not directly reading the bible, among other things, but really the differences were matters of degree... confession to a priest who has the authority to forgive sins or answering an alter call to rededicate one's life and having god, via a reverend and a community, acknowledge that you confessed your sins and intended to change the behavior.

to those of us outside, no difference. to those inside. difference.

[piratefish08]

14. as many times as it takes to convince yourself that you are morally superior......

[Robyn66]

18. This makes me think of

when I was diagnosed with breast cancer and a friend called and told me her friend had made a shawl for me. So I called her to thank her and I went to pick it up. When I got there she and here husband pretty much JUMPED ME with this whole DO YOU ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOR!! Thing complete with praying over me and giving me armloads of books. I was so freaked out I actually went along (plus I was freaked out about being just diagnosed) but once I was home I was PISSED. Plus guess who takes credit for me being cancer free now! (I think the surgery and chemo has something to do with it though!!!)

[Still Blue in PDX]

25. The sad thing is that they thought they were being kind.

Christians have absolutely no idea how repugnant they are to people outside their circle of similarly batshit crazy cohorts.

Not that all Christians are necessarily batshit crazy; they just appear that way.

[AnArmyVeteran]

28. Their system is kind of cool though, cause no matter what you win!

Let's see if I got this right...

Kill 50 people
- Get saved
Rob a liquor store
- Dedicate yourself to Jesus
Beat your children senseless
- Get reborn
Burn down your house for insurance
- Rededicate yourself to Jesus (again)
Become a republican senator and screw your mistress
- Get re-reborn again
Start a war based on lies
- Get reelected by 'born again' Christians
Kill 5,000 American soldiers & hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis
- Become a model born again Christian

[MisterP]

59. that is literally Jack Chick's "theology" nt

[AnArmyVeteran]

63. Chick has a very interesting take on theology doesn't he?

[Hubert Flottz]

19. BORN TO LOSE!

And they can't take it!

[yellerpup]

20. I'm not sure

but my Baptist cousin used to get saved every Sunday at altar call so "we can beat them chicken-eatin' Methodists to Kentucky Fried Chicken." The preacher wouldn't let us go until someone came forward. She'd check the room, wink at me, smack her lips and go get saved...AGAIN!

[Still Blue in PDX]

23. LOL - Heavenly Chicken nt

:rofl:

[yellerpup]

26. To die for...

only to be born again. ;)

[Still Blue in PDX]

24. Just once. It's being "born in the Spirit."

I'm not sure what exactly to call it when it doesn't take.

Guess I'm a born-again Pagan. Third time's the charm.

[MajorChode]

36. Donno, but I'd like to see what the ceremony looks like

I've always thought they constructed a womb out of an old rubber fuel bladder and used some big truck inner tubes and some garage sale wigs to make a labia. I've never actually seen the process, so I could be wrong here.

[AnArmyVeteran]

41. Hey MajorChode, let's make a Youtube video using your ideas showing how a person is 'born again'...

I think it would be hilarious! I love your idea!

[MajorChode]

42. Yes, that's brilliant!

[AnArmyVeteran]

60. I believe it would go viral, but receive lots of hate from christian extremists!

[MajorChode]

61. There's a way around that problem

When the video is made we list a web site where evangelical churches can rent the apparatus for their own use. I'll bet the demand would be quite high. We would need to set up a production line to make several copies. If it does well locally, we would be all set up for a major production run.

[AnArmyVeteran]

30. Christian philosophy by some: Destroy to rebuild...

I've noticed a lot of Christians believe in order to grow one must first destroy, or be destroyed. It comes from Jesus being killed on the cross just to be reborn again.

Glenn Beck keeps calling for the complete destruction of the US so that it can be rebuilt anew with 'conservative' values. He wants the country to fall into a depression ten times worse than the one in 1929. I remember going to a Baptist church where the preacher savagely attacked everyone in the congregation telling them they are all worthless and going to hell. It's a common tactic a lot of extreme preachers and churches use to tear a person's spirit down in order to indoctrinate them with their beliefs. Can you say Jonestown?

BTW, I got up and walked out of that Baptist service because I refused to be assaulted verbally and emotionally abused. As I walked down a hall to exit the church two women stopped me and asked me in a very condemning way, "Where do you think you are going?" I told them politely, "I am going outside where the real God is". The rage in their faces told me what they were thinking, but not being the brightest bulbs on the tree they didn't have time to respond before I was out the door. I left the friend who invited me inside while I stood outside in the parking lot looking up into a clear sky full of stars. I felt so high because I got the courage up to leave that abusive environment. When the 'service' was over my friend found me in the parking lot and I told her why I left. Less than three months later she attempted suicide because she was brought up believing every bad thing she thought was from Satan and she couldn't reconcile the religious indoctrination she was brought up in and her thoughts. She believed she was evil because of what her parents and her church told her. They drove her to an attempted suicide.

I never returned to another Baptist church. I only witnessed pure evil and abuse there.

[Lilith Velkor]

31. As many times as it takes.

It's like there's a revolving door vagina, or something.

[eShirl]

33. "Is their God that vindictive and hateful?"

Apparently.

[MichaelHarris]

34. until

they are better than anyone around them. The purpose of being born again is that you are super christian. When you meet a better christian than you you have to be "born again" so you can be better than them.

[AnArmyVeteran]

38. So being 'Born Again' is really a game of one-upmanship then, ahh, now I get it...

But doesn't that defeat the whole "being humble and modest stuff" Jesus taught, and to not pray in public lest you be considered a hypocrite (as Jesus said)???

[Orsino]

37. As many times as he is caught. n/t

[old mark]

39. Used to work with a guy had a bumpersticker "Born all right the first time."

I thought that was great.


mark

[AnArmyVeteran]

40. I like that bumpersticker idea!

[beam me up scottie]

43. My ex-m-i-l used to ask me "but don't you want to go to Heaven?"

I would smile and explain that, no, I didn't really want to go to Heaven, because I wouldn't know anyone there.

She eventually stopped asking that particular question but continued to god-bother me every chance she got.

Thank you, N, wherever you are, your behaviour and beliefs helped me cultivate and embrace my atheism. :patriot:

[chollybocker]

44. 46.

[Ichingcarpenter]

45. The Answer is 42

Everyone knows that

[chollybocker]

47. I'm referring to metric souls.

;)

[Ichingcarpenter]

51. Deep Thought worked 7.5 million years on the answer and the answer is

42


Unless you are using base 13

Metric is so french.

[RainDog]

46. in sin - born again - backsliding - rededicating

I think those are the four categories according to the Southern Baptists I grew up with.

You never became "unsaved." But you could be a backslider - which meant you went back to sinful ways. Then you do a sort of public confession and "rededicate" your life - as many times as you want.

[AnArmyVeteran]

58. HARD SHELL versus SOFT SHELL BAPTISTS

My dad told me there were 'hard shell' and 'soft shell' Baptists. The hard shelled ones were the hardliners who didn't believe humans should have any joy or fun, while the soft shellers danced and even used makeup. But my dad would say if you wanted to find beer cans and bottles to recycle go to the hard shelled Baptist churches, because you could find a treasure trove of them behind the hard shelled churches. He said the hard shelled Baptists were the biggest hypocrites, because rarely did they follow what they preached. They just wanted to force their oppressive beliefs on everyone else (just like the Christian extremists of today).

Were you a 'hard' or 'soft' shelled Baptist?

[RainDog]

66. I was a kid

my parents weren't weird but they were in a certain environment. my mom used to dance around to Rufus Thomas, told dirty jokes with other women ALL the time... that I never understood... but she also had me in church 3x a week.

I grew up where the southern baptist convention is located. When I was younger, it was no big deal for older girls I knew to go to the prom, etc. When I was a teenager, the baptists had gotten so much more...weird...that they had an event on prom night to compete so that kids would go there instead.

so, no drinking, no dancing. no card playing. none of the things associated with going out to clubs, etc. but playing musical instruments was okay. (unlike the southern church of christ, which doesn't allow musical instruments.)

women wore make up. it was a big deal to dress up for church. women wore hats. it was the social event of the week. after church there was a family dinner. never remember hearing anyone talk about religion in my house. it was just part of life.

when I was a little older, I found out all the boys I really liked were all smoking pot but pretending they didn't. just like kids with their parents otherwise.

my mother came from a farm and her relatives were all much more strict and weird.

The city was a little looser but when it got down to it, the whole reason behind all the prohibitions was the same reason for the temperance league long ago - to keep people from spending money going out rather than building a nice middle-class existence.

I think the lower middle class in the south uses/used the church as a way to distinguish themselves - or they did - from "white trash." They didn't have access to educational institutions b/c of the money (or, in my mom's case, she had to leave school and start working on the family farm when she was in third grade.)

so, the emphasis was on being sober, working hard, getting an education for your children and hoping this behavior would keep you out of poverty.

as those children of the 60s grew up, when they had kids they went back to the church b/c it offered a way to try to keep their children out of trouble. whether true or not, that's what I saw. that's how the mega churches came about. ymcas for fundies. with suburban segregation.

no doubt there were lots of hypocrites and still are. my situation was somewhat different b/c my mom worked in a desegregated place. I went to school with af-am special ed kids and my mom used to take them with us to watch ball games. I didn't hear all the racism but I saw it. this was before desegregation.

then in the 70s, the churches had an influx of "Jesus Freaks." I could relate to them, not the jerry fallwell sort of thing. but by that time, the doctrine just didn't work for me anymore. it didn't make sense to me. and in the 70s there was white flight to religious schools in the south by white people.

I never saw bottles of liquor anywhere near any church I attended. but they were probably there.

my problem with religion is the doctrine, not the behavior.

[Hekate]

48. If you're Hindu, Buddhist, or Neo-Pagan you can be born again, and again, and again...

If you're a humanist you can claim to be born right the first time.

It's all a matter of perspective and a sense of humor.

As for some of the fundy Christians, yes indeed their god is vindictive and hateful. Mind you, I said "some," but sadly they seem to be the noisiest of the bunch. Avoid them if you can.

Hekate

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. I'll Give It A Shot

1) Many Christians believe you can't lose your salvation regardless of what you do. They would argue this isn't a "Get Out Of Hell Free" card because if you are truly saved while you aren't "perfect" there are just things you wouldn't do.

2) Foregivess is there for those who truly repent. I don't think Hitler would seek foregiveness.

3) I am not a Catholic but I like the Catholic approach to salvation outlined in Vatican ll. The theme is you don't have to be a Christian or Catholic to go to Heaven (though they would argue it helps) as long as you are a seeker of the light. By light they mean Jesus. This doesn't mean you have to express a faith in Jesus, just live your life as you did. What does it mean to follow Jesus. To me it means "Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these."

[CanonRay]

50. "Thought processes"

There's your mistake right there. :rofl:

[AnArmyVeteran]

54. LOL!!!

[AnArmyVeteran]

55. LOL!!!

[malaise]

53. Hmmmmmmm from my perspective anyone claiming to be born

more than once is bat shit crazy. It can't happen.

[JuniperLea]

62. I have an evil born again aunt...

Long story short, she ripped off her parents, her sisters, even ended up in jail for fraud (and plea bargained in exchange for state's evidence against her own brother-in-law) but hey, she's forgiven!

All the people who suffered because of her greed are still suffering, but everything is glory to her now! She doesn't feel guilty in the least for stealing her sister's entire retirement fund, because she's forgiven by God! Yippity skippity!

She gives REAL Christians a bad name... she's still a fraud.

[Canuckistanian]

64. Whenever I hear of someone who's been "reborn"

I always think, "What crime did they commit?"

[AnArmyVeteran]

65. You are right Canuckistanian, DEATH ROW is almost 100% born again killers...

[RagAss]

67. Shouldn't this be in the Mother Goose Forum?

[yodermon]

68. Ah, the big-ass loophole. Even Paul recognized it and tried to plug it:

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be!" Romans 6:1-2

:rofl:

In other words: yeah, you can technically sin all you want and be forgiven all you want: but Don't you do it!! or else... well.... oh, shit.

It's actually the most corrupting aspect of christianity. You get a club where, as long as the members forgive each other, justice never has to be meted out. All is forgiven. Thus we have pedophile-protecting Popes. QED.

[AnArmyVeteran]

69. YODERMON: So forgiveness can help purge the spirit of burdens, but also perpetuate vicious abuse...

[Iggo]

70. Yes. They are that gullible.