Please educate me: Does the catholic church have some sort of special immunity?

[howard112211]

Because if the case of suspected widespread abuse were as clear for any other organization, wouldn't there be federal agents kicking in doors, dragging out people (in this case priests) in handcuffs, confiscating computers and searching homes and business areas (in this case churches) for child porn stashes right about now?
:shrug:

[The Magistrate]

1. Not As A Matter Of Law, Sir

As a matter of 'clout', however, it could be said to have some degree of immunity. It is a very formidable body to take on, politically, and particularly formidable at the local level of a municipality.

[howard112211]

2. I somehow thought that law enforcement was "automatic" in the sense that it happens

independent of political will, simply by certain mechanism kicking in.

Maybe I am too naive in such matters.

edit: My shithead niece has falsely accused at least three people (i don't know the exact number since we had to distance ourselves from her) of raping her. Everytime all hell broke lose and the respective person (who in each case later turned out to be 100% innocent) was subject to all sorts of shit. She didn't get in trouble because she was a minor. Seeing the respective agencies in
action over these incidents, I am surprised of how they are more or less letting the catholic church police itsself.

[The Magistrate]

6. It Does Not Always Work That Way, Sir

There can be other factors. Take a situation from, say, forty years ago, when this wave of scandals was actually beginning. A child accuses a priest of molestation. Do the parents believe the child? If they do, does the policeman believe the accusation credible? Is the policeman the proverbial 'Irish cop' (still actually pretty common in most big cities then)? What about the state's attorney? That is an elected post in my state; the Catholic vote is a major feature to this day, and generally not courted by scandalous prosecutions of priests. Every one of these steps is a potential cut-out from a smooth route to arrest and prosecution of the offender, and others could be sketched out as well.

Generally what happened was the families took their complaints not to the police but to the Church, to another priest or to the Bishop. There they were told not to contact the police, and generally obeyed.

In instances in the present day, families tend to go to the police, and so you do see some arrests in a timely manner.

[FBaggins]

3. I think that depends on how the question is asked.

I haven't followed the recent case, but I understand that the Vatican itself (and/or the pope) that is being sued this time.

In addition to being the head of the church, the Vatican is also recognized as a nation and the pope as a head of state.

I think that an argument could be made that a Frenchman couldn't sue the president of the US for failure to punish a criminal (or turn him over to France). Not exactly parallel of course.

[howard112211]

4. Still yet, normal people are subject to local laws when they are outside of their country of origin.

[DaveinJapan]

7. That would assume that Priests and (in particular) Bishops are "normal people".

As I wrote in the other post, the Catholic Church is also a country. So, in a strange sense, officials of that Church that answer to the Vatican aren't exactly subject to normal rules and regulations (yes they SHOULD be...but again, can of worms).

To go after any of THEM is more like trying to go after an Ambassador for breaking local laws. Or so it seems.

[The Magistrate]

9. Priests And Bishops Are Subject To The Law Here, Sir

There is no question of diplomatic immunity, or anything similar, save perhaps for a papal nuncio. Police are perfectly free to arrest, and courts to try and convict and sentence, any Catholic clergyman for any crime. The principal checks on their doing so are the political will of their superiors in municipal government, and the willingness of devout Catholics to bring their complaints to the Church rather than to the police. In my state there have been several priests arrested, charged, and convicted recently of molestations, and serving sentences. The crimes were all fairly recent, however.

[FBaggins]

21. But that really isn't the case here, is it?

I'm open to correction, but I'm pretty sure that loads of priests and bishops have been tried (and/or sued civiliy) for actions taken here (as you've mentioned)... but that isn't what this case isn't about.

This is the vatican/pope being sued (IIRC) for knowing about actions that some priest/bishop took here and not stoping/reporting it.

If a US citizenn were in Italy and committed a crime, I don't think that an Italian could sue the US or the President for failing to punish the person or report him to the Italians. There might be a diplomatic impact, but not a criminal trial.

[DaveinJapan]

5. I tend to agree with The Magistrate. The Catholic Church is essentially a Nation.

Thus any raids on a Catholic Church would be somewhat akin to invading an Embassy.

Not that I'm okay with that, but the fact is they have their own Sovereignty (funny how they distance themselves from their own churches in their arguments though, scumbags!). It's the very definition of "opening up a can of worms", should some local law enforcement go there.

And yes, individuals going after the Vatican won't work (any more than I could sue France), it would have to occur at an international level. And, sadly, the international community holds the Nation of Vatican in high regard and won't dare open up that can of worms to go after them.

They SHOULD, but they won't. (sad, too, because any other nation running a pedophile racket would be roundly condemned)

[Hannah Bell]

8. is it your sense that the federal authorities care about the welfare of children?

reading up on the political uses of moral panic might be instructive.

[The Magistrate]

10. Leaping To the Defense Of Priestly Pedophilia, Ma'am?

Any particular Marxist ground for doing so?

[Hannah Bell]

18. hoisting up the usual straw men, sir?

it's why pedophilia is so politically useful. much as homosexuality used to be.

and it's nearly as effective to paint one's opponent as some kind of "sympathizer", isn't it?

[howard112211]

19. For what it's worth, I'll present a "defense of pedophilia" here:

The law should punish people for what they do, not for what they are. Sexual abuse of a minor is illegal. A person
who is clinically a pedophile, but who agrees to abide by the law should not be persecuted by the state in any way.
Most humans are capable of murder. That does not mean most humans need to be locked up preemptively. On the contrary, doing
so would amount to an overturning of the rule of law.

[Hannah Bell]

20. that's not a defense of pedophilia. it's support for what used to be normal law.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. They think they do

[damyank913]

12. They're taking a page out of Nixon's playbook-"Executive Immunity".

They need the time to find and destroy all of the records.

[SkyDaddy7]

13. Christianity always gets a free pass...

The same crap has been going on in the Boy Scouts as well! More hell is raised by believers when someone files suit to remove god from the currency.

[nightrain]

14. apparently. special dispensation from "above"?

[Lerkfish]

15. the same immunity the mob has, corporations have...

its called power.

power can get you off all sorts of crime.

[madokie]

16. Two things you don't do

question the Catholic Church
question the Israelites
It'll get you in terrible trouble every time ;-)

[get the red out]

17. The Vatican is a country

They can do whatever they want to do in their quest for power and money and must always be given respect for it because they say they are holy. :sarcasm:

[Orsino]

22. Yes. n/t

[PA Democrat]

23. Every state has some form of mandatory reporting law requiring

people in specific profession (or in some states, any citizen) to report suspected child abuse. Many states are now specifically including members of the clergy as mandatory reporters.

More info at link:

http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/clergymandatedall.pdf

[Odin2005]

24. Vatican City is a sovereign state.

You can thank Mussolini for that.