Does anyone use a computer that is not made of any plastic?

[NJmaverick]

How about a computer that doesn't use electricity? Not drive a car or consume goods that are not trucked in? Does anyone here not use an internet that is constructed of plastics and powered by electricity? Does anyone not use products made of plastic or took energy to produce?


Yet oddly there are many that wonder why the US needs oil. Until there is a way to produce plastics and other goods with out oil and until we have enough solar, wind and nuclear to replace our fossil fuels. Until we find a way to power cars, trucks, planes, trains and ships on something other than oil based fuels we are going to need oil. Much as we all would like it to be different, it's not. It's the reality we live in.


Now can we be careful and protective to the environment while we extract that oil? I feel the answer is yes with the right oversight and regulations.

Should our goal be to greatly reduce our use of fossil fuels? Again the answer is a big yes.


However at this point in time it's best for our nation's fragile economy and our national security to reduce the amount of energy we import.


Beyond that to get any sort of green house gas bill through the Senate there has to be COMPROMISE. It's another political reality that we may not like but is the way of the world.

[msongs]

1. problem is dems do not compromise they blow repubs n cave in...ask for nothing and settle for even

less. witness the one year delay on the welfare for insurance corporations health care "reform"

Msongs

[Subdivisions]

2. 'we are going to need oil'

So, the continuation of business as usual until it's all gone. Is that what you're saying?

[MrCoffee]

6. That's exactly what that argument is

Mention any alternative and the weeping and gnashing of teeth begins.

[NJmaverick]

21. You couldn't be further afield from the truth

present Obama has already spent billions in the stimulus bill to move the nation to green energy sources

[dave29]

7. clearly not what he is saying.

:)

[NJmaverick]

8. That's a rather bizarre jump in reasoning

considering there have already been massive efforts to move our nation to green energy sources

[Subdivisions]

16. Green energy sources WILL NEVER REPLACE OIL. n/t

[NJmaverick]

18. Not for plastics and other goods but it can be replaced as an energy source

[Subdivisions]

22. With what? n/t

[NJmaverick]

26. Solar, tidal, wind and nuclear with an eventual eye toward fusiion

power

[Terry in Austin]

59. Sadly, no

All of those sources put together won't replace the amount of energy we get from fossil fuels. We'll just be obliged to make do with less -- a LOT less.

It's certainly understandable, this wishful thinking about green-technology "replacements for oil" -- it's also pervasive enough to earn the term "technotopian." I don't mean that to be rude, but any suggestion that the party is over still seems to be considered so.

Yes, we've got to deploy renewables as much as we're able, but no, it won't get us back to high-energy, consumer-friendly business as usual. Not even close.

And fusion? Please. It's a good thing that it will always be "thirty years away," because the last thing this overpopulated world needs, IMO, is a permanent supply of unlimited energy.

[Subdivisions]

67. 'Technopian' ... Love it! We in the oil watching business refer to these

people as "Cornucopians" - or those who believe there will always be a fix and there will always be plenty of everything. I will adopt your term where appropriate.

Edited to add: The term that most applies to people on this board is "Cassandras", or those who dismiss or disbelieve or deny a legitimate concern.

As for everything else you said - dead on the head. Thanks for posting.

[Terry in Austin]

79. For oil watchers

"Cornucopians" is a good one; Kunstler uses "technotopian," and I've heard the variant "technopian" here and there -- has the advantage of being a little shorter. Can't take the credit for that one, but glad it resonates.

They're all labels, of course, but they do serve a useful function as shorthand. I've even copped to being a "Doomer," even though people thought they were dissing me with the term...

Keep spreading the word, though -- after all, Cassandra was right!

:fistbump:

[robertpaulsen]

71. Enlightening reply. Reminds me of this column.

I really can't blame the media for their reluctance to face up to peak oil. It's an unpleasant concept and it immediately strikes fear into one's heart.

I have often reflected on how coming to grips with peak oil is much like the process of grieving, as identified by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross in her 1969 book, On Death and Dying. In peaker terms, I'd describe it like this:

1. Denial: "There's plenty of oil out there, and we can drill our way out of this."
2. Anger: "Why aren't those bastards drilling our way out of this?"
3. Bargaining: "Well maybe ANWR, the continental offshore, the tar sands, and slightly more efficient cars will fix it."
4. Depression: "Oh man, we're screwed, it's too big a problem for me, I might as well give up."
5. Acceptance: "I'm ready for the second half of the Age of Oil and I'm going to find a way forward."

http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/peak-oil-energy-policy/680

Seems like President Obama is still in the bargaining stage at best. Which is not the most enlightened position, but it beats anger or depression!

[Terry in Austin]

81. Perfect

The five-stages model is SO spot on here. Thanks for the link!

I came across a piece not long ago that mused on just why the idea of climate change finds so much more acceptance than its "carbon twin," peak oil. The writer proposed that it has to do with a basic difference in narratives.

The climate change narrative says "we're so powerful that the very planet stands to be damaged by our industrial might, so it's our responsibility as powerful beings to take care of it." We get an ego boost out of it, even if it's a grim one.

Conversely, the peak oil narrative says "our technological and industrial accomplishments are mainly due to burning up eons' worth of fossil fuels in a couple of hundred years, and without that rich inheritance to squander, we're not so mighty after all." No wonder people cover their ears and go "la-la-la-la" at the mere suggestion!

It's gonna be some tough sledding, no doubt about it...

[ThomThom]

75. I think we are making plastics from oil that doesn't come deep in the

earth.

[NYC_SKP]

47. We will, however, run out of oil, sooner or late, pretty much.

Of course nothing will replace oil.

"Displace Oil" would be the better term.


Reduce
Reuse
Recycle
Rethink
Recover
Refuse
Renew
Respect
Repair
Replace
Restore
Repurpose
Respond
Rebuy
Remember

:patriot:

[Subdivisions]

64. One more R = Relocalization. n/t

[NYC_SKP]

69. Good one, thanks!

That's a perfect fit, and was missing, indeed.

:thumbsup:


Reduce
Reuse
Recycle
Rethink
Recover
Refuse
Renew
Respect
Repair
Replace
Restore
Repurpose
Respond
Rebuy
Relocalize
Remember

:patriot:

[Heidi]

3. The laptop of my dreams uses less plastic, but it does consume electricity.

What sort of offset would apply to art?

http://www.datamancer.net/steampunklaptop/steampunklaptop.htm

[Romulox]

23. Very clever and well designed!

Thanks for the cool link.

[Heidi]

44. I'm a vintage office supplies dork.

A video of part of our manual typewriter collection. I designed the LED-lighted shelf and hired a guy to build it for us. (Please don't point and laugh at my dorkishness.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx5dKMlFgsQ

[Kind of Blue]

48. Love that.

I guess I'm dating myself but I've always wished somebody could come up with a keyboard that was of the typewriter kind. This is very intriguing. Thanks for the link.

[Heidi]

55. You're NOT dating yourself! I had never used a manual typewriter

until we accidentally started our little collection. I just love the steady clickety-clack sound and feel of the manual keyboard under my fingertips. Many of these old manual typewriters were built like tanks. I can't imagine a conventional laptop still being in use for decades, but my husband has a 1929 Underwood portable that types like a dream, for example. ZERO energy consumption except what our fingertips decide to exert. :)

[myrna minx]

51. I want that! n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

4. The oil isn't necessarily going to stay here.

It's going to be sold on the market to whomever the highest bidder is. If that's China, then that's where the oil goes.

It's not like we weren't discussing this here back during the election and pointing things like that out.

[laughingliberal]

31. It's always been the case. We talked about this when the Pubs wanted to drill ANWAR

Those who said we needed the oil and it would bring gas prices down ignored the fact that the oil companies would put it out on the world market. Same here. At the very least, I thought we had rid ourselves of the 2 oil guys in the White House.

[PDJane]

5. spending petro chemicals in an orgy of personal

and private travel was stupid beyond belief.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. The only logic which justifies US offshore drilling is as a transitional strategy to renewables.

There is no comprehensive renewables plan. Absent that plan, this is simply a way to use up what little oil remains as quickly and cheaply as possible.

[NJmaverick]

13. There have already been massive efforts (the stimulus plan for example)

toward moving to green energy. So I agree oil is transitional as an energy source.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. Those "efforts" have not resulted in a tangible plan.

If the the pressure to create that plan is removed (by temporarily inflating the oil supply) then it won't happen until it's too late.

Peak oil will be a crash, the timing of which we don't know, an immediate global economic fail... not a gradual price run up.

[laughingliberal]

37. No, we're Democrats. We negotiate by caving first then asking the other side to compromise

It's chess!

[Captain Hilts]

10. I wish the president had the audacity to say 'conserve'. nt

[NJmaverick]

15. Cash for clunkers, cash for chalk, cash for energy conservation

he already has said it loud and clear to those that have or are willing to listen. He has also made massive efforts at green enery in the stimulus bill.

[Captain Hilts]

73. GREAT programs, but it broke even on conservation. Real clunkers were not eligible. nt

[AnArmyVeteran]

Obama did during the campaign...

When Obama said it would be a good idea for everyone to properly inflate their car's tires (when gas prices were $4 a gallon) it could save them 5% of their gasoline usage. Obama was absolutely correct. But true to form, all the right wing radio freaks attacked Obama ridiculing him and saying 'inflating tires properly' was Obama's energy policy. Inflating tires properly not only saves gasoline, it also saves lives. Premature or abrupt tire failure due to improperly filled tires has led to a lot of traffic deaths, as well as poor gas mileage.

Even if that was Obama's only 'energy policy' it would be better than Bush & Cheney's who developed their 'policy' with six secret meetings with Ken Lay, Bush's corrupt buddy. And of course, Bush's 'energy policy' also was war against a country which never threatened the US, had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, had nothing to do with Al Qaeda and had nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden. But brain-dead right wingers cheered on every bomb dropped in Iraq and every one of the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis killed by Bush's 'energy policy'.

[AnArmyVeteran]

70. Obama did during the campaign...

When Obama said it would be a good idea for everyone to properly inflate their car's tires (when gas prices were $4 a gallon) it could save them 5% of their gasoline usage. Obama was absolutely correct. But true to form, all the right wing radio freaks attacked Obama ridiculing him and saying 'inflating tires properly' was Obama's energy policy. Inflating tires properly not only saves gasoline, it also saves lives. Premature or abrupt tire failure due to improperly filled tires has led to a lot of traffic deaths, as well as poor gas mileage.

Even if that was Obama's only 'energy policy' it would be better than Bush & Cheney's who developed their 'policy' with six secret meetings with Ken Lay, Bush's corrupt buddy. And of course, Bush's 'energy policy' also was war against a country which never threatened the US, had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, had nothing to do with Al Qaeda and had nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden. But brain-dead right wingers cheered on every bomb dropped in Iraq and every one of the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis killed by Bush's 'energy policy'.

[Caliman73]

86. That would be a good thing, but remember Jimmy Carter tried that...

His speech was sobering and people did not want sobering. That is how we got the idiot Reagan with his "conspicuous consumption" ideology.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. I disagree with him, but this is stuff we should be able to talk about. n/t

[Hell Hath No Fury]

12. I remember during the Bush years --

I used to say here that he could butt-fuck a Boy Scout on live TV and there would be a segment of his supporters who would find some way to justify it to defend him.

I really hope to never see a fellow DUer go down that road....

[NJmaverick]

17. I remember when Cheney said conservation is a nice personality quirk

rather than a civic duty. How times have changed. Still there are some that are so blinded by a rigid unbending adherence to a particular ideology that they are blinded to the facts and the reality we live in.

[Mass]

14. Promote a sustainable economy would be a great step in the right direction

Promoting drilling is NOT. At best, it is a PR coup because drilling will not take place before 10 years (if it does, given that oil produced in the US will be more expensive to produce than elsewhere), but even if it was the case, it confuses the message in a country where people cant seem to start understanding there are real issues.

This is the same policy the GOP wanted to promote a few years ago. It is not better now than then (and I know perfectly well that Obama did not promise no more drilling. I just disagree with him now as I did during the campaign).

[Sebastian Doyle]

19. We certainly could use a hell of a lot LESS plastic.

This lame brained idea of putting all food products that previously came in glass containers in plastic, for example. As far as I know, we have plenty of sand, and it's easier to recycle glass anyway. Not to mention (as anyone who currently pays far too much for Mexican Coke knows) it all tastes better in glass anyway. There's a reason why they don't sell beer in plastic bottles. Not that Bud/Miller/Coors didn't try - it was a massive FAIL.

I avoid buying anything in plastic containers if and when any alternative is available.

[NYC_SKP]

24. My Titanium Powerbooks are made of titanium...

But there's a LOT of plastic inside!



As regards the point I think you're trying to make:

The absolute opposition to any domestic production reminds me of the battle over off-shore wind turbines.

Somehow, people don't mind electricity from coal plants miles away because they don't see them.

Similarly, people don't seem to mind using medicines, materials, modes of transportation, etc., that ALL involve use of petroleum...

...as long as it's recovered in some other country (and probably with far fewer environmental standards).

It just doesn't make sense. Use less, AND quit importing.


Reduce
Reuse
Recycle
Rethink
Recover
Refuse
Renew
Respect
Repair
Replace
Restore
Repurpose
Respond
Rebuy
Remember

:patriot:

[NJmaverick]

29. Oil as an energy source should be considered as transitional

plastics and other products produced by oil are going to be with us for some time. No question we should conserve, recycle and look for alternatives. However from a practical standpoint we are going to have to make some difficult and unpleasant choices.

[NYC_SKP]

43. Agree. But there is a NIMBY element at play.

Not on MY territorial waters, you don't!

But getting 57% from someplace else, no problem. http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/energy_in_brief/foreign_oil_dependence.cfm

Oh, and what about those Wars for Oil, and that Pipeline?

There are very good arguments to be made for domestic production, but most important is that we should transition away from oil and other fossil fuels ASAP.

NYC_SKP


Reduce
Reuse
Recycle
Rethink
Recover
Refuse
Renew
Respect
Repair
Replace
Restore
Repurpose
Respond
Rebuy
Remember

:patriot:

[polichick]

27. Except there's not enough there to impact our imports or our prices...

There is no U.S. market, only a world market - whatever they get will likely go to China. This is a payoff to big oil - in advance of legislation Obama hopes they won't fight. Fat chance!

[NJmaverick]

33. If you ever been into bicycling you learn about weight reduction

as the heavier the bike the harder it is to go uphill and accelerate. What you learn in the process of reducing weight is that small things add up and not to focus on only those items that make a big impact.

As for the idea that the US would export it's produced oil, only to important it from another nation doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Still some exporting a few things to China (to offset our huge trade imbalance) wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

[polichick]

39. You need to learn about the oil market - there is no U.S. market...

Oil goes on the world market, as I said. I have a friend in the oil business and he's amazed at how few Americans know how it actually works. This is a payoff, plain and simple - just like the one to big pharma, which got us nothing.

[Warpy]

28. My refurbished Dell has less of it than a lot of them

There are hunks o plastic on the front plate and DVDR trays and that's it, except for the clips holding the RAM in place. Most of the case is metal over a metal chassis.

[AnArmyVeteran]

52. Michael Dell & Rick Perry are in cahoots with each other...

Before Perry became governor, he sold a small piece of worthless land covered with rocks, cactus and mesquite to Michael Dell for a massive profit. It had all the look of a political payoff. Rick Perry was the Lt Governor at the time and in Texas the Lt Governor is the most powerful position in the state. The governorship actually is like a figurehead, while the Lt Governor has all the real powers. Since Perry received a ton of money from virtually worthless land he has been tight buddies with Michael Dell, working hand in hand and appearing everywhere together.

When I first heard of that land deal it smell corrupt, it looked corrupt, and well, you know the definition of a duck...

Don't buy anything with Dell's name on it. He's a right winger who has his very own political prostitute in Rick Perry.

BTW: Not once did the media ever out Bush as being in the weakest governorship in the country. Bush kept saying he was the governor of such a big economy state and the rest of his crap, when the governor has virtually no powers. One power he did have was to stay executions, but he refused to do that as he rejoiced with each person killed by the state because with each person he killed he gained even more support from right wing idiots.

[Warpy]

85. I wouldn't buy it new

but refurbished by a techie is fine.

[Ichingcarpenter]

62. My iMac

the OP sounds like he's from Cheney's task force.
We pay $6.50 a gallon here, but get 20% of our energy from wind.

It can be done right in the US but this is a lame argument he uses

[Xithras]

30. You can make plastic without oil. You can make lubricants without oil.

Look up Mirel, and any one of its bioplastic competitors. As an added bonus, bioplastics are also biodegradable.

The reality is that bioplastics remain a niche because they're more expensive to make, and our market economy demands that we ALWAYS choose the cheaper option, even if it is politically, economically, and environmentally the WRONG choice to make.

All we need, to reduce our dependence on oil and move to a non-petro economy, is the political leadership and will to legislate the conversion and fund research into the areas where no alternative is available (though I do have faith that private solutions will pop up rapidly once the oil based solutions are limited...neccessity is the mother...). It's tragic that we're stuck with shortsighted leaders who seem to be welded to conservative political and economic principles.

[NJmaverick]

36. Doesn't that require oil based fertilizers and fossil fuel based energy to grow and manufacture?

[Xithras]

45. No.

There have been successful developments over the last few years in using algae based biomass to create chemical fertilizers. Again, the price is a little higher, but it's entirely doable.

Oil is used everywhere for one simple reason...it's cheap. I've never bought into the whole "OMGPEAKOILTHEWORLDISGOINGTOEND" hysteria because I understand that there ARE alternatives. Some are functional today, some are still being refined in labs, and some are still theoretical, but NONE will move into the mainstream until our oil addiction is broken.

[Maru Kitteh]

32. No common sense allowed here. Move along.

[rosesaylavee]

34. He is addressing the issue... and I don't think he's done yet.

The stim package has a lot of energy projts in it... and there are hundreds if not thousands of new energy-related construction projects starting this year or underway. We are in teh middle of a energy revolution and as usual the MSM is missing the event.

I don't like the nuclear plant and have no illusions that there is such a thing as clean coal. Off shore drilling makes me physically sick to contemplate... HOWEVER, I do think this is a step in a long range plan that is very much needed at this time.

[NJmaverick]

53. That's pretty much it

[laststeamtrain]

35. "Just one word: plastic."

[crikkett]

38. Yes, for thousands of years.

Next Question?
Oh, right: plastic that can be created without oil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioplastic

Power cars on alternative fuels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

Google is your friend. <-- uncomplimentary statement removed on edit with my apologies -->

Enjoy the (en)light(enment) -which is just within reach.

[NJmaverick]

54. What about the oil used to make the fertilizer that grows our food?

[crikkett]

57. You mean, the very same fertilizer that is killing the oceans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_zone_%28ecology%29#Causes_of_dead_zones
"Use of chemical fertilizers is considered the major human-related cause of dead zones around the world."

[crikkett]

60. Has it occurred to you that replacing petroleum products will also create long-lasting jobs?

And thereby retool our economy?

[crikkett]

63. Here's another one: petroleum jelly linked to BREAST CANCER

and it's in all our cosmetics.
"Impurities in Petroleum Jelly or commonly known as Vaseline, under suspicion as a carcinogen in Breast Cancer"
http://www.health-report.co.uk/petroleum_petrolatum_health_concerns.htm


The hippies were right, NJmaverick. Petroleum is killing the world. Viable alternatives do exist. Turning to them will turn our economy around and lead to healthier, wealthier lives.

On edit: I'm sorry for my snark upthread. I've removed my uncomplimentary statement because I should have remembered that it will never help my argument to make insults.

Best,
me
:hi:

[ThomThom]

76. yes grow hemp

[boppers]

82. Damn, I was gonna post an Abacus.

Great minds and all that.

[hunter]

40. The women at Bletchley Park...

No plastic there!

In those days computers were people and machines were still machines.

http://enigma.wikispaces.com/Women+In+Code+Breaking

[arcadian]

41. So you admit the reason we are in Iraq and Afghanistan is to control the flow of oil.

[laughingliberal]

42. Yay! Another chess game!

Give the oil companies what they want with no strings attached and then they'll be soooo grateful, they'll cooperate to help us get green house gas legislation passed. Can't we just already see how this is going to go? It's a sequel.

Next, we can throw money at the banks so they'll help us get financial reform passed.

edited typo

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

46. "Yet oddly there are many that wonder why the US needs oil." Um... like who?

[Ignis]

72. That'd be the firm of Straw and Mann, Esq.

:eyes:

[AnArmyVeteran]

49. My brain is NOT plastic, and it's the best computer I have ;)

[onenote]

61. did it send your message or did a piece of plastic help?

[AnArmyVeteran]

65. Hey, that's a low blow! Without my brain you wouldn't have received my message...

but yes, I did use a computing machine to transmit my thoughts to you. Maybe when humans have evolved more we will be able to dispense with these primitive computers...

[Ozymanithrax]

50. It takes about 2 years to explore, then another 4 or 5 to develop...

So, if they do find any oil out there, it will be 6 or 7 years before we saw any of it on the market. That is assuming the work like gang busters to actually develop the source.

Reducing imports of oil can be handled in other ways (though they all take time) Nuclear Power Plants can reduce imports, efficiency standards on automobiles and all electronic equipment.

I don't think the "Drill Here Drill Now" plan is any more a solution than it would be to Make Palin the Energy Secretary.

[damntexdem]

56. We're burning up oil that should be kept as a resource for future centuries.

[kestrel91316]

58. Of course we need oil. And not just the US. EVERYBODY.

We just don't have any business BURNING such a valuable resource when it should be used for manufacturing those things for which there is no non-plastic or non-petroleum-derived substitute.

And using plastic to manufacture single-use disposable items with a working life of a couple of hours ought to be a criminal offense.

[Initech]

66. The desktop computer case I have is made of steel.

[G_j]

68. far wiser & effective to stop creating islands of plastic garbage! nt

[H2O Man]

74. There's a future in plastics.

[PufPuf23]

77. Any temporary increase in leasing or drilling domestic

oil resources is a PR bandage that will not have meaningful impact on price nor supply and will be another transfer of public wealth to private oil corps.

It is a regressive policy.

[tedk_355]

78. No

[zonkers]

80. This man does...

[Brother Buzz]

83. removed - bum link

[havocmom]

84. LOL wow

that didn't take long

The older I get, the more I see, the more I know Pogo was right