Drill all you want, it won't make a difference...

[misanthrope]

...First, Americans are averse to conservation. They hate it and hate being asked to do it which means you can plead all you want but it won't do any good. Selfishness is too ingrained into the culture and Americans will only pursue alternative energies when they have little choice. I don't like this characteristic a bit but I'm objective enough to see that we are going to continue to rely on fossil fuels until it's too late.

Secondly, offshore domestic drilling will show once and for all that pump prices aren't dictated nearly as much by the amount of crude on hand as they are by refineries. Oil companies control prices by their refining rate and as long as they have no economic incentive to increase refining, thereby reducing their profits, they will not do it. The domestic drilling argument is a canard and hopefully this will finally put an end to it.

[n2doc]

1. Refineries are essentially 0 profit these days

All the profit comes from the Crude Oil.

[misanthrope]

7. So you're saying that there's no profits from gasoline sales?**nm

**

[n2doc]

10. You said refineries

I don't know why I bother, but if you are interested in the real situation

http://www.petroleum-economist.com/default.asp?Page=14&PUB=46&ISS=25538&SID=723802

Gas stations generally only make a few C per gallon profit.

http://caranswer.info/other/How-much-profit-do-gas-station-owners-make-off-a-gallon-of-gas---Other-Cars-Tran.html

[misanthrope]

11. I can do without the condescension, thanks...

...but if you don't want to acknowledge the link between gasoline prices and refining, that's fine.

And I realize full well what the individual gas station owners' profit margins are. That's why you don't see "filling stations" of the type that once were common. Station owners have to open an attached convenience store or close.

The following is from a story I wrote that was published in 2007:

"According to the U.S. Dept of Energy, the national average for retail gasoline, including taxes, is $3.20 per gallon, up 34 cents from a year ago. The average for the Gulf Coast, lowest in the nation, is $3.06 per gallon, 33 cents higher than a year ago.

"The average is 19 cents higher than the DOE projected price for this period.

"The refinery itself has become the biggest point of contention in recent discussion of rising gas prices. Petroleum companies point to the lack of refining capacity as the reason for rising prices, a bottleneck that constricts supply and increases price.

"It has been three decades since a new refinery has been built in the U.S. despite the fact usage has increased by 45% in that same timespan. The cause for the lack of new facilities varies according to who is asked.

"Industry spokespeople point to two main factors: environmental regulations and public reluctance typified as “Not-in-my-back-yard” or “NIMBY” syndrome. They maintain Americans fear the effects of industry typified as environmentally risky...."

"...A greater question would lie in economic principle. Would it make fiscal sense for petroleum manufacturers to commit massive financial outlay to projects that would only lessen profits?

"According to one legislator, that question has already been answered. In 2001, Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR) authored a comprehensive report on the state of the United States refining industry. He noted a total of 24 refinery closures between 1995 and 2001 that cost the nation 830,000 barrels per day of gasoline, roughly equal the amount lost to Hurricane Katrina alone.

"Wyden uncovered several memos and internal documents from major oil companies that seemed to chart how refining capacity was reduced to maintain higher profits. Wyden received one memo written in 1996 from Texaco wherein the oil company felt it apparent that petroleum supplies needed 'reducing.'

“'The most critical factor facing the refining industry on the West Coast is the surplus refining capacity, and the surplus gasoline production capacity,' the memo said. 'The same situation exists for the entire U.S. refining industry. Supply significantly exceeds demand year-round. This results in very poor refinery margins, and very poor refinery financial results. Significant events need to occur to assist in reducing supplies and/or increasing the demand for gasoline.'

"The Energy Information Assocation said in late April that supplies have fallen 13 percent since February 2007 and refineries at that time were running at 87 percent capacity..."

[LiberalLoner]

2. People often don't seem to realize peak oil is here - rop

We are in the middle of the plateau and I would expect we will start to go down the other side within the next decade, and no matter how much we drill, each year we will have less and less oil to use, and more and more population competing for what oil there is. Life is going to get a lot harder I think over the next few decades.

[Subdivisions]

13. Not only do they not realize it, they don't even want to think about or discuss it. n/t

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

3. Yes Americans are averse to conservation, but we will get more

results right now if we conserve in every area we can.

[amborin]

4. Americans are averse to conserving so our "leadership" should therefore indulge this bad practice?

[Myrina]

5. Exactly. At some point our habits HAVE TO change.

It's not about finding 'more' oil, or 'local' oil, its about learning to use less energy, period.
We've so totally and completely succumbed to the instant gratification super-size mentality that we just can't comprehend that the supply is finite and the only thing we can do about it is to change our mindset.

[HughMoran]

6. Yep, one less lame excuse I guess

Dunno why some people on the right get all jiggy about this drilling crap - it ain't gonna do crap and the likelihood is that none of the contracts will be fulfilled anyway.

[Uncle Joe]

8. I believe Americans are more flexible and the messages they're continually bombarded with from

the corporate media greatly shape or influence their priorities.

To a large extent the corporate media has defined American Society's concept of masculinity as being anathema to moderation or conservation as opposed to historical Native American points of view connecting those dynamics together.

That's why "real" men eat *Hardees Burgers and drive mechanized behemoths.

Modern America places a premium on image over substance and propaganda is a fine fusion of scientific art dedicated to magnifying that effect for the sake of profit.

I believe should the corporate media tie masculinity to compassion, empathy, responsibility, conservation, wisdom and a general respect for nature's value, American behavior would dramatically change.

Thanks for the thread, misanthrope.

*Disclaimer, I like Hardees Burgers.

[hatrack]

9. We'll keep on doing what we do until we can't, and then we won't.

Only then will we change, and of course by then, it'll be way too late to avoid truly massive, lacerating social spinout.

[Subdivisions]

14. Not to mention a near extinction level die-off. n/t

[Subdivisions]

12. It's already too late. It's only a matter of time now.

Edited to add a graph NO ONE here wants to see or talk about:



And they will present any possible argument to avoid accepting this reality.

If anyone that sees this doubts this graph, go to http://www.eia.gov and http://www.iea.org and run the data yourself.

[hunter]

15. Refineries don't have anything to do with it.

There's plenty of refining capacity and little point in adding more.

From here on out refining capacity will decrease just a few steps behind decreasing oil extraction rates.

New refineries will be built to take advantage of heavier and dirtier crudes, and to supplant the refining processes with synthetic natural gas products, but that's all.

With oil extraction rates declining any "increase in refining" would simply increase the price of the final products.