Do you think we'll see a repeat of Ruby Ridge or Waco soon?

[arcadian]

Poll question: Do you think we'll see a repeat of Ruby Ridge or Waco soon?

[ericinne]

1. The Medicare Militia?

Yeah, they'll all be held up by the feds in a nursing home.

[Maru Kitteh]

3. OK - THAT cracked me up! Thanks for the giggle, and welcome to DU.

[mdmc]

2. within 10 years, imho, yes.

why not?

[LiberalLoner]

4. My fear is that we will see another Timothy McVeigh soon. n/t

[Jamastiene]

10. That was my first thought too. n/t

[onehandle]

12. Timothy McVeigh: Republican, NRA Member, Found like thinkers at the Gun Shows he frequented.

It's easy to find these guys.

The next one is just around the corner.

[Ardent15]

49. Yes. nt

[EFerrari]

5. I think it's more likely these wing nuts will attack a Federal facility.

The anniversary of OK City coming up in April.

[Jamastiene]

11. April 20th is their favorite day to start some crap somewhere.

They all seem to love Hitler's birthday for acting out their violent fantasies, the sick bastards.

[EFerrari]

13. That whole week is worrisome. Violent assholes.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. 19th or 20th - they can't seem to ever remember (if they even care)

which is Hitler's birthday and which is the anniversary of the Minuteman stand at Lexington.

Kind of like how I can't remember which day is my sister's birthday and which is St Pat's. It doesn't really matter - both are good reasons to have a beer.

[Jamastiene]

23. Too bad we can't talk them into just having a beer instead.

That'd be better. Maybe they'd mellow out some. :thumbsup:

[kentauros]

50. Like on 420 Day, eh?

420

[DevonRex]

26. They use the 19th for a completely different reason. It relates to the

execution of a RW wacko murderer, Richard Snell - a McVeigh friend, in Arkansas on the same day that McVeigh bombed the Murrah Building. Waco ended on that date in 1993 and was one of the reasons McVeigh used that date in 1995. More info on Snell from Wikipedia:

"Snell was a member of the radical white supremacist group The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (known as the CSA), which was started in 1971 in the small community of Elijah, Arkansas by polygamist James Ellison. He was involved in filming the planes that landed at the restricted airport in Mena, Arkansas, believed by many conspiracy theorists to be a government sanctioned cover-up. Snell believed that the CIA was using this airport to smuggle drugs into America. He was also a White-racist and a believer in the Christian Identity religion, and frequented Elohim City, a private community located in Oklahoma, created by members of Ellison's organization."

Columbine was on April 20th.

[RaleighNCDUer]

35. It's a little sad, in a bizarre way, that McVeigh chose to do his bombing

to honor Snell on the day of Snell's execution - guaranteeing that NOBODY would be talking about Snell that day.

I remember all about the CSA, and didn't know until just now that Snell was executed on the day of the Murrah building bombing.

If there is an afterlife, Snell is probably pretty pissed at McVeigh.

When Bushco was ramping up terror alerts for any and all excuses, one they used was "the Islamic extremists correlate new attacks with anniversaries" - which I've never seen. The RW wackos, however, LOVE anniversaries - as is evidenced by the Murrah bombing. I get nervous every April 19/20.

[DevonRex]

41. It really is ironic, isn't it? I wonder if McVeigh realized that before he died.

April has become my least favorite month of the year because of all the tragedy caused by those wackos. I'm not really religious in a traditional sense anymore but I confess to praying and lighting candles in my own little kind of pagan way, starting around the middle of April. It's just my way of remembering lost souls and putting some positive energy out there. And I turn it into a time to remember friends and family who might be struggling for whatever reason. Silly, huh?

I had a law enforcement friend who was blown through a wall in the Murrah Building and friends of my son were trapped in Columbine for hours. And, some of my peers were killed at Waco. It all just hit too close to home so I had to find a way to deal with it.

:hi:

[RaleighNCDUer]

42. Wow - a close connection to all three -

must leave you feeling a little like Forrest Gump, always managing to be on the scene at pivotal times.

I hope the three is the end of it for you. It's more than enough.

:hi:

[DevonRex]

45. Now you made me tear up, just by being so nice.

Thankfully not on the scene but still a bit too close for comfort.

:hi:

[Are_grits_groceries]

6. I'm sure there will be some similar setup.

However, the reason they turned into cause celebres was the way the government handled both of them.

If somebody with ANY sense is in charge, then maybe the whole FUBAR can be avoided.

ANY sense? HA! I answered my own question.

[Greyhound]

24. The problem with that is that in both cases, the government had to instigate

the confrontation. The wackos in Waco and the Weavers were careful to stay within the law and the FBI/BATF enticed/instigated the "offense" that gave them the excuse to go in.

The resulting PR from this is devastating to sane governance and provides fuel for these militia types. If we were less concerned with "appearing strong" and more concerned with achieving results from within the law, these disasters can be avoided.

[harkadog]

25. Absolutely right.

Both Ruby Ridge and Waco could have been easily avoided with a little common sense.

[RaleighNCDUer]

48. I know the ATF agents supposedly set Weaver up with the phony

weapon buy - which he DID, after all, go along with - but how did the Feds orchestrate Waco?

They DID have illegal full auto weapons in the compound. They were found after the fire.

[Greyhound]

54. They sold the shotgun through their mole after cutting it 1/4" shorter

than legal. Do you measure the barrels on your guns to check if the advertised length is accurate? It was entrapment, plain & simple, something else we have Raygun to thank for.

The Feds mistake in Waco was going for the photo-op over the goal. The weapons were made the issue after it was determined that they were never going to make the child abuse charge stick (Age of consent is 14 and a complaint needs a parent or guardian which they weren't going to get). Thus the child endangerment and weapons charges.

I'm not defending either of these (although the ironies surrounding the Weavers murders are legion) groups, rather pointing out that both of these PR disasters were easily avoided, had the ulterior motives been ignored.

[closeupready]

7. Sometimes, DU makes me unintentionally laugh.

I think some here are fond of getting hysterical about just about everything that happens.

A bird dies and it's an extinction event. Oil prices rise, and Peak Oil is Here! :D

In this case, there's no hard evidence that I've seen indicating another Waco or Ruby Ridge, but that won't stop people here from being alarmist. :rant:

Carry on. :hi:

[MajorChode]

30. You funny

It's not alarmist. Anyone who is old enough to remember those events remember the political climate that led to those events. These people don't form their warped views all on their own. They are encouraged every step of the way by like minded individuals. The far-right-wingnuts are even more virulent today than in years past. All you have to do is turn on the news. You had someone attack the IRS building in Austin just recently and the Hutaree fucksticks had all sorts of long term bunker preparation material on their website. The only reason they weren't able to barricade themselves is because the FBI moved in too fast for them.

[old mark]

8. Probably, but not on as large a scale - I think the idea is spreading among the RWers

that they are indeed being watched. They shared the idea that the federal agents and the military hate the "liberals", especially Obama - he's black, you know-and that the militias and other airheads would be free to kill all the liberals they wanted to "take back their country".
They are beginning to understand they wre very wrong about this, but I think there are some who will make the attempt anyway. They are the equivalent of the suicide bombers-they are dupes and tools of others.

None of them are known for being overly smart.

mark

[Jamastiene]

9. With Palin and others openly pushing for revolt, yes.

Of course, what I see as possible is something more like the Oklahoma City Bombing. The right wingers need to call off their dogs. That stuff is too horrible to have to face again. It does nothing to hurt the government. It just hurts everyday people. It's horrible.

[GoCubsGo]

14. Ruby Ridge or Waco? No....

Murrah Federal Building? Yes.

[closeupready]

16. I doubt that very much. Basically because

that kind of thing, post-9/11, is associated with Islamic terrorist groups. I know that sounds simplistic, but most of these clowns ARE pretty simple - and even downright stupid. Obviously, you can't discount the possibility entirely.

[Posteritatis]

20. You mean like flying planes into buildings is associated with them?

Lot of people switched their tune pretty fast when the pilot was someone whose ideologically matched theirs.

[closeupready]

22. Oh, right - I guess that is a good point.

n/t

[Beacho]

15. I voted 'No'

But only in that I think that feds have smartened up in the way they handle these situations. I think that there are tighter controls over tactics and use of force in the wake of the fiascos of Waco and Ruby Ridge. That being said I think that there will be attempts to perpetrate more OKCs, let's hope they are averted in time.

On another note I think that groups like the Michigan Militia are not going to turn a blind eye to people that may get stupid and get them dragged down with them. Odd alliance I know, but after the problems they faced with being associated with McVeigh and Nichols I do think that they are policing themselves, More out of a sense of self preservation than anything else.

[onehandle]

19. I voted no, for the same reason.

And I do think that they are policing themselves more, but will still screw up and be subject to more raids.

They are being emboldened by the wide coverage of armed teabaggers and other right wing groups on Fox News and elsewhere. This will make them more reckless and clumsy, thinking that the people are behind them.

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. they know if they police themselves and expel those with the most

violent rhetoric they will be getting rid of both the crazies and the FBI plants.

[951-Riverside]

17. I see it happening again with certain Mormon groups

I don't see teabaggers going Waco anytime soon because they are for government and lead/supported by government officials. Historically anti-government, separatist and anti-abortion groups have posed the most danger when you're talking about domestic terrorists.

[Myrina]

18. ... some knucklehead here in Indy broke into a Reserve armory ...

... and stole a HumVee yesterday ... took off up the highway and then cut thru a field with it before the cops finally caught up to him ... my guess is he's a militia nutbag.

[tedk_355]

28. Let's hope not

[aikoaiko]

29. Poorly executed Federal agent raids?

:shrug:

It could happen at any time.

[DevonRex]

31. Waco was the execution of a SEARCH WARRANT. The Branch Davidians'

violent response to the serving of a legitimate search warrant is what caused the problem.

[aikoaiko]

33. Yes, of course the Branch Davidians are ultimately to blame, but

do you think the Federal agents executed their plan well? I don't.

I think it was a search warrant and an arrest warrant which equals raid.

[arcadian]

36. That poster just sensed some Clinton bashing.

that's all there is to that.

[aikoaiko]

40. I suppose but I have equal doubt about the Bush adminstrations raid on Ruby Ridge.

I think our agents have learned a lot and take an academic approach to avoiding bad outcomes with armed ideological criminals.

Of course, complacency can happen in a short time and disaster can occur if Federal Agents are not quick thinkers and adapters.

[DevonRex]

47. Who said anything about Clinton? Good grief. You might try reading

some of my posts in this thread before you make any more silly assumptions.

[B Calm]

39. Damn. . . The Federal agents gave them weeks to give up.

[Paladin]

43. It's Just A Lot Easier To Trash The Government, Isn't It?

Rather than a bunch of right-wing loons, armed with Really, Really Cool Guns......

[aikoaiko]

51. Not usually.

Maybe for some people. And maybe some people can't bring themselves to criticize their government when its convenient.

[DevonRex]

44. See my post below on the reasons it was done the way it was.

But in answer to your question, I don't know how else they could have executed a search warrant other than actually going to the house to be searched and presenting the lawful warrant to the occupants of said house.

Because of all the firepower contained in that house (which was well known beforehand) they had to have extensive backup. They knew it had the strong possibility of turning violent but hoped it would not, much like any search warrant that's served on a known violent group.

The FBI actually took over at the siege stage and I confess to not knowing as much about how that was handled as I do about how ATF handled the search warrant phase.

And no, there was no arrest warrant. The property had to be searched in order to physically verify information from sworn affidavits. If the search had been completed and that information had been verified, then arrest warrants would have been issued.

From Wikipedia:

"The Waco Siege<3> began on February 28, 1993 when the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) attempted to execute a search warrant at the Branch Davidian ranch at Mount Carmel, a property located nine miles (14 km) east-northeast of Waco, Texas. An exchange of gunfire resulted in the deaths of four agents and six followers of David Koresh. A subsequent 51-day siege by the Federal Bureau of Investigation ended on April 19 when fire destroyed the compound. Seventy-six people (24 of them British nationals)<4> died in the fire, including more than 20 children, two pregnant women, and Koresh himself."

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. Actually, it would have gone off just fine if a sympathizer in the sherrif's office

hadn't tipped them off that the feds were coming.

I also think it ended the way the Branch Davidians wanted it too - at least their leadership. They were apocolyptics who intended to go out in a blaze of armegeddon's fire. I don't believe the feds deliberately burned the compound down, but that they chose to burn it down around themselves so they could go out Jim Jones style (murdering all those poor kids with them, just as Jones did).

They were initially, intermediately, and ultimately to blame.

[aikoaiko]

52. I mostly agree with you.

[B Calm]

32. I find it amazing how the cons supported a child molester in Waco!

[aikoaiko]

34. They are in complete denial about that.

[DevonRex]

38. Yep. Not only that, but a cult that illegally converted sem-auto weapons to full auto

and had a huge stockpile of them. Which is why the warrant was served in the fashion it was - using the cattle trailer full of backup agents should the Davidians start shooting the agents who went to the door to serve the warrant.

Which, I might add, is exactly what happened. The Davidians started shooting and killed the agents tasked with serving the warrant.

Those cult members knew that children were being raped. They intentionally broke the law in that regard as well as regarding illegal weapons. Yet people still defend them.

I share your amazement. :hug:

[spoony]

37. Shit the DEA probably do that every day before lunch. nt

[Quantess]

53. Kicking for more votes

[scheming daemons]

55. Ruby Ridge happened under George HW Bush, not Clinton

It was in April of 1992. Democrats weren't running the FBI or ATF on that one.