Is this possible? Make all public schools public charter schools?

[CTyankee]

Can this be done? After all, if charter schools are so great, then why not just have them all be public, subject to the same regulations that we currently have for public schools and declare them "charter" schools.

I am not very knowledgeable about charter schools per se but I know that there are some public charter schools already in existence. If the right wing wants to make such a big deal about charter schools, it seems to me we can turn this to our advantage.

What would be involved in doing this on a much broader scale?

[alstephenson]

1. Charter schools ARE public schools. eom

[tonysam]

5. No, they aren't. Nice try at propaganda.

They take public money, but there is no elected board to oversee it, no real accountability.

They are basically private schools which take public money.

[CTyankee]

18. Public charter schools have no elected board overseeing them?

What if they did? THAT is what I am asking...please don't try to turn this into something it is not. There should and must be accountability, if they are using public funds. What I don't understand is why we cannot just make take the successful part of the charter school, much the way magnate schools are done here, where we have a science school, a maritime school, an arts school, etc.

[tonysam]

40. They have NO real accountability to taxpayers who finance them.

THAT is the major difference.

[sandnsea]

56. They're accountable to the district they're in

And the district is accountable to an elected school board.

Here's the wildly red town of Eugene's regulations on charters:

http://www.4j.lane.edu/schools/charterschools

[donco6]

59. Ha! We have two.

We can't even find out if they have proper insurance or not.

Accountable my ass.

[sandnsea]

69. Take it to your school board

They have the authority to do something about it. They would be putting the entire district at legal risk and they're not going to do that. You know it and I know it so stop with the hysteria.

[donco6]

74. I'm the administrator in charge of getting the information.

I'm the one the board directs to get it.

And I'm hardly hysterical.

[sandnsea]

84. Oooh, so they are accountable

The board has directed you to make them accountable. And if the board doesn't back you up, then you go to the community, and the community replaces the board. Right? Same as if the superintendent were screwing up somehow.

The charter schools are not going to be allowed to operate without insurance indefinitely.

And isn't it lovely that someone who hates charter schools is designated to work with making sure the charters are compliant. That's going to work out well.

[donco6]

90. I'ze jus' duz whut I'ze tol'

And if'n them fellers don't git me whut eye need, bygolly, I'll . . . I'll . . .

Well, what I really have to do is tattle on them to the state charter institute who will force them to get me the info, which they probably won't give me mainly because they know they don't have the proper coverages. It's a stalling tactic, which takes up my time. But hey, I guess I gotta love 'em!

[mzteris]

168. And the NAME of these two?

You can PM me if you'd like. I'm having trouble finding "charter schools" in your district. The only ones close are award winning so . . . .

well, I'd like to help you out if you'll let me know their names.

[Spike89]

75. "wildly red"?!?!?

Certainly not red as in red state (republican). What does that mean? I have heard some of our more over the top conservatives refer to "the people's republic of Eugene" but even they don't truly believe it.

[sandnsea]

81. That was sarcasm

As in red state red, not commie red. As in, even very liberal Eugene has some charter schools and the teachers haven't been run out of town.

[paulsby]

85. eugene's also home of anarchist scumbags

who are neither red nor blue, but just disruptive putzes.

[sandnsea]

91. Okaaay

The most radical I've seen is some candlelight vigils for some oak trees.

:shrug:

But what's that got to do with charter schools??

[paulsby]

96. are you serious? eugene is anarchist central

it's hardly news that eugene is home to a large anarchist block

it doesn't directly have to do with charters. it has to do with the political culture of eugene, which was referenced in the post i responded to, claiming that eugene is solidly left o center. it is , but it is also home to anarchist fucksticks, who are at least as antithetical to the left as they are to the right.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/12/10/anarchists

http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general94.html
(los angeles times article from 1999)
"Then the anarchists moved in. Forget about investments in Myanmar; smash the banks. Why bother about hamburger wrap? Close down McDonald's. And so this Oregon university town has given birth to one of the most active communities in what seems to be a small but growing national resurgence in anarchist thought--a movement dedicated to wiping away just about everything the last 2,000 years of human civilization has produced: government institutions, industrial development, technology.

Eugene Becomes a Lab for Anarchists

Eugene, a city of 150,000 that is best known as the home of the University of Oregon, has become a test kitchen for the principles of anarchy applied to small-town America. Issues like upscale restaurants and condominium developments, new downtown parking lots and logging of local forests--these are as likely topics as the writings of Emma Goldman and Noam Chomsky during weekly meetings of the 20 or so members of Eugene's Black Army Faction.

In recent months, anarchists have vandalized the minivan of a police officer, writing "Die pig" across the back window; waged war over the removal of dozens of stately old trees to make way for a downtown parking lot and residential development; started a grass-roots community school with training in subjects like vegan cooking and worm cultivation; launched damaging attacks against local computer software and Nike outlets, in addition to several banks and restaurants; leafleted banks, mortgage companies, fast-food outlets and lawyers' offices with messages like "Viva la Unabomber" and "Actualize industrial collapse."

Nearly 75 showed up at a Northwest anarchist conference in Eugene in June, and later that month eight police officers were injured when a downtown march called by the Anarchist Action Collective to smash computers and television sets turned into a riot. Rocks and bricks were hurled through bank signs, shop windows, a hotel and motorists' cars in a street action that included more than 200 activists. Police responded with shields, batons and made 20 arrests.

The anarchists are mostly teens and twentysomethings with inclinations toward black clothing and punk rock. But their numbers include middle-age intellectuals, artists and writers. And Eugene's entire activist community has joined with them on issues like the downtown trees, logging of national forests and animal rights. (It was probably the animal rights issue, businessmen say, that led to the smashing of the front window of a downtown furniture store advertising a "leather sale.")

"I am not going to allow any group of . . . urban terrorists to make our city streets a place where people feel like they can't be," said Mayor Jim Torrey, who was vomited on at a City Council meeting by a defender of the downtown trees. "

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/12/10/anarchists

[sandnsea]

98. I can only assume you're joking

:rofl: That's the funniest description of Eugene I've ever read.

[paulsby]

101. do you dispute that it's anarchist central

it's hardly surprising when an anarchist is arrested, even up here in seattle, and their home address is eugene, or in the immediate vicinity thereof.

just like free staters gravitate to NH, GLBT gravitate to provincetown, surfers gravitate to the north shore, anarchists gravitate (and unfortunately germinate in) eugene.

[sandnsea]

108. Because of the oak tree vigil??

They're your anarchists??

Wow, if they're the scariest thing the left has to offer, we're in serious trouble in an insurrection.

[paulsby]

109. way to ignore the evidence

do i need to cite events such as the dipshits smashing nike town, the guys throwing bricks at cops, etc. etc.

for pete's sake, read the salon article

[sandnsea]

I live here, 60 miles from Eugene

Eugene is my "big city" for shopping, surgery, the airport. No, it is not anarchist central. That is just too funny.

Edited to add:

I will forever refer to them as the Oak Tree Anarchists. :rofl:

[Spike89]

138. I live here, and it is not the 90s

Eugene, Oregon was a headquarters for a very small group of anarchists that were given way more publicity and credit for their part in the Seattle protests than they deserved. Those guys may still be here, but really, your most recent report is from 11 years ago, with a backup source from 16 years ago? Granted, 1-15 years isn't long for some trends, but in this case we are literally talking about a handful of dudes (yes, they were mostly guys). It was NEVER more than a couple dozen people.

I guess you could make a case that Eugene is a center of fur trading in the profitable beaver skins that the dandies in London like to make their top hats of--there are articles from the 1850s proving this!

Even in that silly article, they talk about 20 members and totally stretch things by attempting to tie the tree protesters into the anarchist groups. Eugene has had a large number of environmental activists, but to equate them to anarchists is bull.

[sandnsea]

139. Clarifying, you responded to me

And I am in no way connecting the tree vigilists to anarchists, or Eugene to anarchists. I'm in Florence, btw. :hi:

[Spike89]

158. sorry about that

I've spent quite a bit of time in Florence and around it...someday I'd like to retire to the central coast.

[joeybee12]

155. They're accountable to whomever bankrolls them and makes a profit off them...n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. No elected board

Accountability is a joke. Really.

[mzteris]

166. not true.

You really know do nothing about charter schools.

[alstephenson]

31. Private schools charge tuition.

Charter/public schools do not. I disagree with your assessment/propaganda.

[donco6]

49. As they should.

A school receiving public funds and denying entrance to students like a private school? Not such a good use of public money.

[donco6]

50. dupe

that was weird.

[blondeatlast]

144. Have you tried to enroll a child in one? I laugh in your general direction

and encourage you to kee trying with that lame April fool's joke.

[ncteechur]

189. you don't know what you are talking about.

[CTyankee]

7. OK, then I'm not getting the distinction being made by the right wing.

They are using "charter school" to mean "not public" and we know that there ARE public charter schools. I think they gave up using the term "private" because it was a big turn off to the general public who think that public education is a right in our democracy, which it is. But now the right wing has turned the whole discussion into a public v. charter and I was just wondering if we could get this turned around...

[tonysam]

10. They aren't real public schools.

The day their boards are elected by the public in elections is the day they are public schools.

Just because they siphon taxpayer money doesn't mean they are real public schools.

[CTyankee]

24. Well, make their boards subject to the same rules...they have to be elected.

Or bring them under the umbrella of the already elected ones...if they receive ANY public funding they should abide by the same rules...

[donco6]

27. They'd NEVER agree to it.

And here in Colorado, to be a charter the law states that you MUST have your own board.

[CTyankee]

34. Are they publicly elected? If not, why not?

I can't understand why they could get public funds and not be accountable to the public?

[donco6]

43. They are usually just appointed amongst themselves.

The parents of the school get together and have an "election" of sorts. They have to have bylaws, I know that much. But as a taxpayer, *I* have no right to go in and ask a charter how they spend their money. I'd probably have to file a FOIA request to get anything from them.

[CTyankee]

64. How did this happen? It seems so undemocratic to me...nt

[donco6]

77. Since when did that matter?

The idea was - since vouchers couldn't get through - to create taxpayer funded schools created by individuals who could then shape them any way they wanted. You want to create a charter that serves only kids in your mostly-white housing development? Not a problem! We have them all over here.

[CTyankee]

100. It matters if the public did not have a say in how this came to pass.

Is this something that the state legislature must OK? Where is the tax payers input on this? Those are the ones paying...accountability should be up to them.

[donco6]

104. The legislature passed quite a while ago.

It was never put up to a vote, but it would probably pass if it were. People in general really don't understand how charters work.

[CTyankee]

115. That's a problem. Public information is key to getting people to understand

if the purpose of the charter is to defeat, not enhance, public education.

[mzteris]

170. You're right - most people DON"T understand how Charters work . . .

Each charter school is governed by a board of directors.
Charter schools that do not meet the terms of their charter agreement may
be shut down by the authorizer.
To open a charter school, a group of charter school founders, usually
comprised of parents, educators and community leaders, submits a charter
application to the district in which the perspective school intends to locate.
The application must specify the school’s mission, goals, objectives and
performance goals; the degree of support for the school within the
community; the school’s education program; the methods the school will use
to collect and analyze assessment data; the governance and operations
model of the charter school; a business plan; employment policies; and
other operational policies.
The district must consider the application, hold at least two public meetings,
and accept or reject the charter school’s application within 75 days of when
it was filed. If the school board approves the application, the school founders
and the district have 90 days to finalize a contract. If the local board denies
the application or imposes unacceptable conditions on the application, the
applicant may appeal to the State Board of Education.
The charter application serves as the foundation of the contract between the
charter school and its authorizer. The contract specifies all of the
agreements regarding waivers of district policies. It describes how the school
will meet the intent of the laws and policies for which it has received
waivers. The contract also includes agreements regarding facilities and financial arrangements. Within 10 days after the authorizer has approved
the contract, it must contact the State Board regarding the waivers the
school seeks to receive from the state statutes and regulations. The State
Board has 45 days to respond to the request.

Charter contracts last for three or more years. The charter school must
submit a renewal application to the board no later than December 1 of the
year prior to the academic year in which the charter agreement is set to
expire. The local board is required to rule on the renewal application no later
than the next February 1st or a mutually agreed-upon date. The local school
board may revoke or choose not to renew a charter school for the following
reasons: the charter school has committed a material violation of the
conditions, standards, or procedures in its charter application; the charter
school failed to make reasonable progress toward achieving the student
performance goals; the charter school failed to meet generally accepted
standards of fiscal management; and/or the charter school violated any
provision of the law from which the charter school was not specifically
exempted. The authorizer must state its reasons for revoking or not
renewing a charter contract. The charter school may appeal the decision to
the State Board of Education.

A charter school may appeal to the Colorado State Board of Education if a
charter application has been denied, revoked or not renewed. Within 60 days
of receipt of the notice of appeal, the State Board is required to hold a public
hearing to review the local board’s decision. If the State Board finds the local
board’s decision was contrary to the best interest of students, the school
district or the community, it remands the decision to the authorizer with
written instructions to reconsider. The authorizer must reconsider its
decision within 30 days. If the board does not approve the application or
renewal, the charter school may file a second appeal with the state. At which
time, the State Board is required to hold a second hearing and reexamine
the local board’s decision. In this case, the State Board's decision is final and
not subject to appeal.

PART THREE: CHARACTERISTICS OF COLORADO CHARTER SCHOOLS
This section of the report looks at key characteristics of Colorado charter
schools and the students and families they served. These data present an
overall picture of the charter school program in Colorado during the 2007-
2008 school year.
CHARTER SCHOOL SIZE
The charter schools included in this study ranged widely in size, depending
on their location, the grade levels served and educational philosophy. Of the
141 schools in this report:
• 14.89% (21 schools) served less than 100 students;
• 17.02% (24 schools) served between 101 and 200 students;
• 15.6% (22 schools) served between 201 and 300 students;
• 14.89% (21 schools) served between 301 and 400 students;
• 16.31% (23 schools) served between 401 and 500 students;
• 7.09% (10 schools) served between 501 and 600 students; and
• 14.18% (20 schools) served more than 600 students.

PART FOUR: CHARACTERISTICS OF COLORADO CHARTER SCHOOL
STUDENTS
Charter schools operating in 2007-2008 were more racially and economically
diverse than in prior years but continued to serve a smaller percentage of
racial/ethnic minority students and students eligible for Free or Reduced-
Price Lunch than the state public school average.
RACIAL/ETHNIC MINORITIES
The charter schools operating in 2007-2008 served 20,930 racial/ethnic
minority students, representing 37% of the total charter school enrollment
(56,188). The state average was 39%. The percent of racial/ethnic minority
students enrolled in charter schools has increased over time from 32% in
2004 and 27% in 2001, but trails the state average, which is also increasing
(up from 37.5% in 2004 and 33% in 2001).
STUDENT ELIGIBILITY FOR FREE OR REDUCED-PRICE LUNCH
The charter schools operating in 2007-2008 served 14,089 students who
were eligible for Free or Reduced-Price Lunch, representing 25% of the total
enrollment (56,188) of the schools. This rate reflects steady growth
compared to prior years. In 2005, 20% of charter students qualified for Free
or Reduced-Price Lunch, and in 2001 it was 17.8%. Despite the steady
increase in the number of students eligible for Free or Reduced-Price Lunch
served in charter schools, these numbers are below the state’s 35% for fall
2007, 32.1% in 2004, and 28% in 2001. The percent of students eligible for
Free or Reduced-Price Lunch served by the charter schools in fall 2007
ranged from 0% to 100%, with 16 schools reporting 0% and one school
reporting 100%. Table 7 shows the percentage of students eligible for Free
and Reduced-Price Lunch and the percentage of minority students for
charter schools and their authorizing districts.

[mzteris]

169. Colorado League of Charter Schools:

"Focus on the Facts"

Click here for a PDF version of the Charter School "Focus on the Facts" sheet.

Charter schools are tuition-free, public schools that have the flexibility to be more innovative and are held accountable for student achievement. Below are more facts about Colorado's charter schools.

* Charter schools are public schools.
* Charter schools do not charge tuition.
* Charter schools use non-discriminatory enrollment practices.
* There are no "test-in" requirements to attend charter schools.
* Currently, nearly 66,000 students attend the 160 charter schools in Colorado. This amounts to approximately 8.2% of total K-12 public school enrollment in the state.
* Charter school students must take the CSAP.
* Charter schools are subject to the federal No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Act.
* Charter school teachers must be "highly qualified" under NCLB.
* Charter schools serve a broad range of diverse students, including low-income, racial and ethnic minorities, and students with disabilities or other special needs.
* Colorado charter schools continue to attract a variety of students and are located in diverse geographical areas across the state.
* Charter school programs and academic designs are as diverse as the students they enroll. Some charters implement longer school days, while others implement curricula specifically designed for at-risk students, gifted children, pregnant/parenting teens, juvenile offenders, and more.

Demographics
Statewide data regarding the 66,000 students enrolled in charter schools in 2009, demonstrates diversity comparable to statewide data on traditional public schools. Currently:

39.14% of Colorado charter school students are minorities compared to
39.15% of the state's traditional K-12 public school students.

Colorado Charter School Demographics (2009-10):

* 60.86% are white (not Hispanic)
* 26.19% are Hispanic
* 7.75% are Black (not Hispanic)
* 4.12% are Asian or Pacific Islander
* 1.08% are American Indian or Alaskan Native

Colorado Traditional Public School Demographics (2009-10):

* 60.85% are white (not Hispanic)
* 28.50% are Hispanic
* 5.80% are Black (not Hispanic)
* 3.68% are Asian or Pacific Islander
* 1.17% are American Indian or Alaskan Native

Academic Performance
Evidence of the strong academic performance of charter schools is provided by both federal and state measures of student achievement:

* In 2009, Colorado's charter schools outperformed the state's non-charters in the percentage of schools with strong enough academic performance to make Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP). Specifically,
o 85% of charter elementary schools made AYP, compared to 73% of non-charter elementary schools.
o 81% of charter middle schools made AYP, compared to 49% of non-charter middle schools.
o 36% of charter high schools made AYP, compared to 34% of non-charter high schools.

Charter School Funding
The academic success achieved by charter schools is especially impressive in light of the financial challenges they face:

* On average, charter schools in Colorado spend $480 per student from designated per-pupil operating revenue on facilities costs.
* School districts finance their facilities using property tax, mill levies, and taxpayer-backed bonds. Charter schools generally do not receive a proportionate share of these monies. As a result, money often comes out of the classroom to pay for buildings.

[alstephenson]

37. Yeah, because ALL of those elected boards are doing such a great job of governance.

Not.

[donco6]

45. Well, if they're not, they can be "unelected."

Unlike a charter board, which has no accountability to anyone.

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. That is a lot more complicated than it sounds

Charters are established by state legislatures. And the purpose is to have a publicly funded school that is NOT abiding by the same rules as all the other schools. So no way would any state change that.

[mzteris]

167. yeah - so they can be overrun by fundies

like Texas.

[blondeatlast]

145. +1. nt

[MattBaggins]

12. Clean Coal anyone?

[sandnsea]

14. No, unions turned this into a public v charter debate

The right wing had it as a public/charter vs private/voucher debate. There is plenty of room for charter schools in this country, especially if they're run by nonprofits or from teachers themselves. I don't understand why teachers are opposing any kind of change at all.

[alstephenson]

42. Bingo.

Isn't it supposed to be all about the kids and what's best for them???

[mmonk]

161. It's never about them.

[alstephenson]

33. It's not just the right wing...

[MattBaggins]

11. No they are not

[donco6]

20. I know of no charter school that is run by a publicly-elected board.

And by "publicly-elected" I mean by the taxpayers that fund it, not just the parents who send their kids to that school.

[sandnsea]

51. The district monitors the charter

The school district granting the charter is responsible for monitoring the charter school to see that the school:

Meets the terms of an approved charter, or any provision of law;
Meets student performance requirements stated in the charter;
Corrects any violation of federal or state law;
Maintains insurance as described in the charter; and
Maintains financial stability.

If a charter is terminated, the sponsoring school district must give the public charter school at least 60 days notice prior to termination, unless the safety or health of students is endangered.

http://www.4j.lane.edu/schools/charterschools

And of course the school district is under the supervision of a school board.

[Dinger]

22. "Public Charter School", "Private Public School"

No such thing

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. No they are not.

They get public funding and that is it.

In my state, charters get paid for all the kids who are enrolled even after the kids are no longer enrolled. They do a count in the fall and that's the figure they use to pay them their state aid.

But in traditional public schools, daily attendance is how they determine state aid. If kids leave school, the school's aid is lowered.

So the charters get to admit and expel any kid they want and they don't lose any money when they kick the kids out.

Someone else is going to have to explain why this is fair.

[JuniperLea]

2. I don't think this is a RW issue...

I'm seeing support on all sides.

[Smarmie Doofus]

6. Some non-RWers point to the choice aspect.

But from the right and the neo-right it's mostly about busting the unions, and lowering costs by lowering salaries and eliminating pensions.

Choice is a figleaf.

[JuniperLea]

25. And to some of the teachers here...

What Jaime Escalante did was impossible... and they are claiming it cannot be done.

Pass the figleaf, please.

[CTyankee]

29. Why can't we change that? Why does this have to be an anti-union idea?

I don't see why we can't have teachers unions with all of their benefits and MORE, especially higher salaries but also strong pensions as well, and publicly elected board members. That's my question...

[Smarmie Doofus]

82. I don't think teachers are against that, per se.

I'm not, anyway. I once thought about starting charter myself when the idea was new.

I think THEY ( teachers) think... and they are correct in this... that the *idea* of charter schools is a trojan horse with which the right can bust the unions and sock-it-to a loyal DEM constituency. Additionally there's big money to be made... I don't care whether they call themselves not-for-profit or not.

It can be MORE than a trojan horse...... if that's your point. And it will probably evolve in that direction over time but right now it's ( to me) a euphemism for privatization and corruption.

As always there are individual exceptions to the rule; but seems to me, that's the rule.

[meeshrox]

157. The "union" argument was added by privatization proponents

to demonize the teachers and unions for a simple and clear enemy. There is so much more about this debate than the union and tenure idea I keep hearing about. Similar to what madfloridian has pointed out on numerous occasions, getting rid of tenure would negate any reason to be an experienced teacher with a graduate degree. It would take out the career aspect of teaching and replace experienced, high-earning (relatively), teachers with master's and doctorates with fresh-out-of-college young and inexperienced cheap teachers. Educators don't always come out of college ready to go. There is a lot to be said about the value of teaching experience in that field.

What the union, tenure, and choice argument actually means is inserting a neo-con strategy into education to make it run like a business...simply a disaster for our children.

Also, I second what Smarmie Doofus pointed out: "from the right and the neo-right it's mostly about busting the unions, and lowering costs by lowering salaries and eliminating pensions."

[Sebastian Doyle]

23. Apparently there's no such thing as a RW issue anymore.

Heritage Foundation health care plans are now "Democratic". Nuclear power is now "Democratic". Offshore oil company environmental destruction is now "Democratic". Conversion of public education into right wing indoctrination camps is now "Democratic".

Are there any right wing ideas that "Democrats" are not trying to claim as their own?

[JuniperLea]

30. I think you have that backwards... eom

[CTyankee]

32. But it isn't, or should not be, a right wing idea.

What I am asking is for a new way of looking at this and stealing the thunder from the right wing, turning it to the advantage of purely public education. Do you hear what I am saying?

[Sebastian Doyle]

36. The very purpose of charter schools is to make them anti-union, right wing piles of shit.

The answer is to support public education, and the teachers unions. Not try to eliminate them.

[CTyankee]

44. Again I ask, why are they NOT required to have union teachers?

Why can't they be required abide by the rules if they are publicly funded?

[donco6]

53. Because that defeats the purpose behind their creation.

Those who created them would never allow it.

[CTyankee]

72. Then we should defund those schools and keep the money strictly for

public schools. Why aren't we already doing this?

[donco6]

78. Your lips to God's ears.

And I have no answer for that. Except to say that Obama and Duncan completely support charter schools, and they're DEMOCRATS.

[Smarmie Doofus]

141. Interesting idea. The NY union killed an expansion of charters....

... by writing into the proposed expansion law requirements that the charters books be open and all the public $$$ be publicly accounted for. The charter lobby dropped the bill rather than accept that provision; which says a lot.

Requiring union recognition would seem to be a reasonable add-on provision. Perhaps there are legalities involved with that that can't be dealt with thru the legislative process.....i.e. intricacies of labor law. Good question.

[mzteris]

171. the Union argument is a strawman -

There are UNIONIZED Charters (my son attends one)

and there are NON-UNION TRADITIONAL Public school teachers. No one should ever be REQUIRED to join a Union.. If they want to, fine. If they don't, fine. Maybe it's because I was raised originally in the South, but whether or not you're Union shouldn't be a mandate. Again, I'm all about FREEDOM OF CHOICE!

Also, from my experience - whether or not a teacher is union or non-union matters not a hill of beans to their efficacy in the classroom. I've seen good and bad of both.

Did you know that some Unions opened and operate some Charter Schools?

[alstephenson]

46. That's crap.

The very purpose of charter schools is to provide students with an alternative. It's about the kids, not your almighty unions.

[Sebastian Doyle]

54. If you oppose unions, you are not a Democrat.

period.

[alstephenson]

79. Who said I oppose unions?

I just think kids trump unions in this case. It would appear that unionized teachers consider charter schools a threat to their livelihood, but don't consider the potential benefits to students.

[Catshrink]

122. The threat is arbitrary and unjust loss of a job

due to incompetent administrators, nepotism, or a disgruntled parent with pull. The union guarantees a process for removal of a teacher. I didn't understand how important this is until I encountered parents who thought their kids walked on water.

[proud2BlibKansan]

125. An administrator once admitted

that about half of the teachers recommended to be fired every year are not worthy of being fired. But there are enough teachers NOT on the fired list to make up for the ones who shouldn't be on it.

In other words, admins don't know what the fuck they are doing when they recommend a teacher should be fired.

[proud2BlibKansan]

124. Union teacher here

It's about what is best for the kids. It doesn't have anything to do with our jobs. Anyone who accuses teachers of being in it for the paycheck are either selfish themselves or they don't know any teachers.

There are LIMITED benefits in charter schools to A FEW kids. Not all. I can't support any use of my tax dollars that doesn't also mandate equal access. The charters here in my area are not open to ALL kids. That's #1 reason I oppose them. I have no desire to teach in a charter and I have great job security so this isn't about my employment. It's about kids.

[CTyankee]

80. Yes, you are right. I am a former union member and my husband

is a former city worker who was a member of AFSME and an active member of our Democratic Ward Committee. He was forced to retire earlier than he wanted when he was laid off by the city of New Haven last year. the dispute was save his and 18 other city workers jobs vs. the union agreeing to not include janitors, the most vulnerable part of the work force and the ones most in need of union protection. The union refused (and rightfully so). As a result these 19 joined many others that were laid off before. They were primarily in the social services areas and included some teachers and school employees. The poor, the families and the homeless (my husband's area of expertise)were the first on the chopping block.

I have seen anti-union brutality from a so-called Democratic mayor, John DeStefano (whose ineptness and corruption resulted in the disastrous firefighters Supreme Court decision last year). PM me if you like and I can fill you in on this story...not a pretty one...

[blondeatlast]

146. +1. nt

[donco6]

55. It's about RW politics, anti-union sentiment, and white flight.

It's pretty obvious here. I dunno about Scottsdale.

[Sebastian Doyle]

70. Scottsdale is about as "whitebread" as it gets

The Phoenix metropolitan area in general is too conservative, but Scottsdale's definitely the far right, far white end of that.

[alstephenson]

86. What does where I live have to do with this???

Believe me, I know all about the demographics of Arizona...but it's irrelevant. I'm not speaking about students in Scottsdale, I'm speaking about low income students in L.A., in Stockton, in Minneapolis, in Albuquerque, in N.Y., and in many other cities across the country in which I've been involved with non-profit charter schools.

[blondeatlast]

148. I grew up there--and you nailed it. nt

[blondeatlast]

147. In Scottsdale, there's the added "bonus" of being free to discriminate

in admissions.

I started my teaching career there. AZ's charters are a disgusting, strictly for profit disaster.

[Starry Messenger]

57. lol!

If you spell it "kid$" that would be more accurate.

[virgogal]

102. My goodness !

[Jamastiene]

3. If we did that, how would they continue to partake in their white flight migration?

No, it is not possible.

[CTyankee]

38. Watching Joe Scum do his thing on that Harlem school raised questions in my mind.

Is that school a "cover" for white flight?

Also, does it have to take anybody, including kids with special needs? Are there no teachers there that are union members and if not, why not?

[donco6]

87. Are you talking about the Promise Academy?

No, it's not a cover for white flight.

I don't know what they do with special needs kids. I read Goeffrey Canada's book and he didn't mention that. I don't believe their teachers are union.

The thing about PA is that it was created to serve a very specific population within a defined boundary for a clear purpose. Canada wanted to change the neighborhood, and he is doing it by changing the people who live there. He created an entire structure of neighborhood supports even BEFORE he started the school. So it's a lot more than the charter - he worked on training parents before they sent kids there with Baby College, he started a 0-3 Headstart and a preschool from which the KG kids are selected through their lottery.

But I do have a hesitation with PA - in that I see their pedagogy as far too test-centered. He's under terrible pressure from his private board of directors to produce test results, and it puts a lot of pressure on his curriculum to "teach to the test." It's really clear in his book. I really dislike that part about his school. But as a person, I think he's trying hard to change a neighborhood with his work.

[alstephenson]

93. And yet you assume that all other charter schools are "bad".

"The thing about PA is that it was created to serve a very specific population within a defined boundary for a clear purpose." As are most charter schools.

[donco6]

97. Oh yeah, they serve a purpose all right.

Union-busting, white flight, RW indoctrination. I'm contrasting Canada's work with what I see all around me here in Colorado.

[CTyankee]

112. isn't the Obama administration supporting 0-3 Head Start programs?

I thought I had read that somewhere...

[donco6]

116. Yes.

One of our congresscritters is trying to get us a capital grant for a 0-3 HS program. We really, really, really need it.

[donco6]

4. You would eliminate all teacher's unions

Which some here would applaud.

Charters are not covered under a District's Master Agreement.

[CTyankee]

62. Why aren't they?

[donco6]

68. Because that's why they were formed.

Those who created them wanted them to be separated from the Master Agreement so they could have more "flexibility." (i.e., pay them less).

[CTyankee]

83. I still don't understand how they were able to get away with it. nt

[mzteris]

173. That is NOT why "they were formed" -=

Charters were formed in order to educate children in a manner consistent with their needs.

If you remember correctly it was Albert Shanker (- uh Union guy, remember?) who initially championed charters????

[elleng]

8. If we could only afford it!

We've never taken the money or time to provide the excellence needed in all of our schools, AND we've never agreed on what's necessary to do so. I'm not optimistic that we could do it now.

[sandnsea]

9. No it isn't possible

There are way too many students to educate for charter schools to ever be implemented across the board. At best they're an additional alternative for crowded, under-served neighborhoods; and demonstration projects for the rest of the country.

They are also not a right wing "deal". Homeschooling started with liberals who didn't want their kids indoctrinated. Charters started with liberals who wanted schools that didn't indoctrinate. How we let these become ideas of the right is beyond me.

[JuniperLea]

21. Thank you!

This issue has become so muddled and demonized! Your clarity is perfect.

[alstephenson]

52. Very well said and right on.

[mzteris]

174. +1 million!!

:thumbsup:

[omega minimo]

13. BS

[CTyankee]

67. All I am asking is why it should be this way.

I don't understand why we can't force charter schools to play by the same rules as any other publicly funded school. Why call BS on that?

[omega minimo]

137. Back asswards

Disingenuous.

[CTyankee]

143. Look, I am asking questions. I am not playing mind games.

Maybe you think I should have been better informed. Well, I'm not, so I ask for info and I'm getting some that's very helpful. That is my purpose here.

[msongs]

15. charter schools skim - dont have to take all comers like real public schools nt

[sandnsea]

16. And some charters are the alternative schools

Where the "real" public schools send kids that they kick out. Let's tell the whole story here.

[mzteris]

175. +2 million!!!

And minorities and special needs and "failing students" that the trad can't - or won't - help.

the averages of minorities and "free and reduced lunch" in charters vs trads?

(2008-2009)

Charter Schools Metrics& %
White.......... 38.4%
Black.......... 29.7%
Hispanic....... 24.7%
Asian.......... 3.9%
Other.......... 3.3%

Non-Charter schools Metrics
White.......... 53.4%
Black.......... 16.8%
Hispanic....... 22.1%
Asian.......... 4.9%
Other.......... 2.8%


Charter Schools Metrics&
Eligible for Free or Reduced Price Lunch.......... 48.2%
Ineligible for Free or Reduced Price Lunch.......... 51.8%


Non-Charter Schools Metrics&
Eligible for Free or Reduced Price Lunch.......... 45.2%
Ineligible for Free or Reduced Price Lunch.......... 54.8%

[Catshrink]

19. Exactly..

where would the special education and other "high cost" students go?

[alstephenson]

58. Wrong.

No discrimination. There are huge waiting lists for charter school seats and they are filled by lottery.

[donco6]

65. Wrong.

Charters routinely turn away high-need special education kids that regular public schools must accept. They also routinely turn away Spanish-speakers.

[alstephenson]

89. Link, please.

You "routinely" exaggerate and misinform.

[donco6]

95. Nope, just telling the truth.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/education/2010/01/04/2010-01-04_uft_rips_charters_on_lack_of_inclusion_far_too_few_specialneeds_kids_union.html

Among the UFT's findings:

• In the South Bronx, 62% of charter school students are poor enough to qualify for free lunch, compared with 87% in the district public schools.

• About 9% of students in South Bronx charters aren't fluent in English, compared with 22% in local public schools.

• In central Brooklyn, 55% of students are poor enough to qualify for free lunch, compared with 80% in the district public schools.

• About 1% of students in charters in central Brooklyn aren't fluent in English, compared with 11% in nearby public schools.

http://columbia.news21.com/?p=64

It is not clear if charter schools are specifically recruiting more academically accomplished students or not. What many administrators suspect is happening, however, is that the public schools are left with more students who have greater needs than before, said Marie Vallone, one of P.S. 76’s assistant principals.

The New York State Department of Education’s School Accountability and Overview Reports released in mid-April support their hunch. According to the demographic data from the 2007-2008 school year, Harlem’s charter schools are not serving students with the same level of need as the neighborhood’s zoned public schools. Two groups of students that often struggle to score highly on standardized tests — English language learners and those living in poverty — make up significantly smaller percentages of Harlem’s charter schools’ enrollment than they do at the area’s zoned schools.


And there's LOTS more where that came from - just ask!

[donco6]

106. crickets

[blondeatlast]

150. As they do in Phoenix (and I guarantee, Scottsdale). I suspect those crickets will exhaust themselve

before an answer is forthcoming.

I effin' hate what Scottsdale has become and I grew up there--that was way back in the day, though.

[mzteris]

177. just in case you missed it -

Demographics
Statewide data regarding the 66,000 students enrolled in charter schools in 2009, demonstrates diversity comparable to statewide data on traditional public schools. Currently:

39.14% of Colorado charter school students are minorities compared to
39.15% of the state's traditional K-12 public school students.

Colorado Charter School Demographics (2009-10):

* 60.86% are white (not Hispanic)
* 26.19% are Hispanic
* 7.75% are Black (not Hispanic)
* 4.12% are Asian or Pacific Islander
* 1.08% are American Indian or Alaskan Native

Colorado Traditional Public School Demographics (2009-10):

* 60.85% are white (not Hispanic)
* 28.50% are Hispanic
* 5.80% are Black (not Hispanic)
* 3.68% are Asian or Pacific Islander
* 1.17% are American Indian or Alaskan Native

US (2008-2009)

Charter Schools Metrics& %
White.......... 38.4%
Black.......... 29.7%
Hispanic....... 24.7%
Asian.......... 3.9%
Other.......... 3.3%

Non-Charter schools Metrics
White.......... 53.4%
Black.......... 16.8%
Hispanic....... 22.1%
Asian.......... 4.9%
Other.......... 2.8%


Charter Schools Metrics&
Eligible for Free or Reduced Price Lunch.......... 48.2%
Ineligible for Free or Reduced Price Lunch.......... 51.8%


Non-Charter Schools Metrics&
Eligible for Free or Reduced Price Lunch.......... 45.2%
Ineligible for Free or Reduced Price Lunch.......... 54.8%

[CTyankee]

110. I think magnate schools are a good idea (all things being equal publiicly).

My grandson's school in CA is an example of a public school offering a new thing: immersion language 90/10 of the school day in 3 target languages, starting at kindergarten and now going up to 2nd grade. The 3 languages are Spanish, Italian and German. It can appeal to parents who want to have their kid bilingual or, if now bilingual,retain their other language spoken at home. My grandson is in the Italian class and never knew a word in it before this past fall. If that were turned into a magnate they could draw from lots of other school districts. They still offer regular kindergarten as well. Since a lot of parents wouldn't see the benefits of having their kid immersed in another language for the greatest part of their day it wouldn't appeal to everybody. My grandson is unfazed by it and we have learned about all the benefits there are to learning another language at an early age (having to do the way the brain processes new information). This is a regular public school with union teachers. The parents of the kids in the immersion program love it and work hard at its success,but not to the detriment of the regular classes. It's an example of how fully public schools can offer variety and include new ideas.

This program was based on a program in the Milwaukee publc schools from the earlier part of the last century, when German immigrants wanted their kids not to lose their heritage language in public schools. It is possible that Milwaukee at that time was run by a socialist city government.

[donco6]

111. Magnet schools are a different thing altogether.

They're still under the regular contract, under the board of ed, same graduation requirements, etc.

They also don't usually crow about how much better they are than "public" schools - they know they're going to have a different demographic.

[CTyankee]

120. Well, I think magnates could be the perfect offset for the so called public charter schools, if that

is truly not the case. My grandson's school reflects the diversity of its local population perfectly. It just so happens that it has this additional offering, that of language immersion for those who wish it. Another dimension of "multi-cultural" if you will. So the school is actually a mosaic, not a melting pot (as Jesse Jackson once said). Here in New Haven we have the same thing with our high schools that cater to kids who really have a good idea of what they want to pursue in college and they are magnates. That way, they can draw from other communities whose kids have interests and talents in common with inner city kids.

[donco6]

123. The thing about magnets that's hard -

Magnet schools are called that because they "draw in" kids from outside their attendance boundaries. For many school districts, that's hard to accommodate due to increased transportation costs - or no transportation option at all. Transportation routes are usually built around a hub/spoke system - and there's only so far you can go before you have kids that are riding the bus at 6:15 a.m. or some ridiculous time like that. So there are limitations. But in general, they can be good.

[CTyankee]

132. Yes, it can be. But at present my grandson's school is out of his district

(because of a exemption granted to kids whose parents want certain classes for their kids). But it's so nearby that my son in law, who has a flexible schedule, is in charge of drop off and pick up. In fact, the communityis "next door" to theirs. So it probably works better in big cities with close surrounding communities.

My grandson's school is in Glendale right next to North Hollywood where my grandson lives. At this time the LA county school district is trying to remove the exemptions such as my grandson has, and that would devastate his program. That is NOT a union v non union issue, it really is one of an obstinate school county administrator who doesn't get it, he just sees the dollars flowing out of LA county and into Glendale but it's a pitiful amount of money and attempts to squelch a good, innovative program with an enthusiastic parent group representative of the communities in which they live. It's sad. But if they become a magnate it'll work out. The school is great. I've been in my grandson's class (where I was required, along with the kids, to speak only Italian when I visited!).

[donco6]

134. Here in Colorado, we have an open borders law.

Any kid can enroll in any school, as long as that school has room and it's before October 1. After that, the receiving district can deny enrollment. We've done it for years. I think most districts would find the whole thing is a wash in the long run.

[CTyankee]

140. This thing in LA county came down after the deadline for out of district parents.

So that was a problem. But the other problem that surfaced is that parents had made inquiries into the LA system about a language immersion program, volunteering to help get one started, but were turned down. Then they turned to Glendale and other school districts. I think it was a lack of imagination onthe part of LA county, really. Maybe they were so driven by the money issue that nothing else seemed to matter, when actually such programs could be a real boon to LA county if they were to institute them. Not to listen to the people is a bad thing. And this wasn't white flight, it was thinking outside of the box and it was doable. In a city with such a diverse, creative and dynamic population, all kinds of things could happen...it's just too bad...

[izzybeans]

114. Here in Chicago we have both and the application process is the exact same.

We were able to get into a full day kindergarten (my son) via lottery at a charter and then move him to an arts magnate after wards through a lottery using the same application.

Frankly, as a parent I'm thankful for the choice. Our neighborhood school is very rough.The teachers are wonderful at all three of the choices we had.

[mzteris]

178. Same in NC -

Choice is GOOD!

edit to add:

Choice is DEMOCRATIC!!!

[mzteris]

176. Really?

There a 50% "set-aside" for "Native Spanish speakers" in the two charter schools my son has attended. . .

Some charters are just FOR "special ed"

FYI - many (most?) charters are able to educate kids in such a way that they don't NEED the "sped" label. . .

[proud2BlibKansan]

126. Not where I live

Every state has different rules for charters. You can't generalize.

[blondeatlast]

149. Who are you kidding? You're from Scottsdale, I'm from Phoenix--and you

are so full of it. It my work that way in Snottsdale (so damn glad I left there--I went to HS there BEFORE it became white bread central) but not so in central Phoenix.

Coronado and Saguaro high schools are top< notch--but I guess not for your little darkling, eh? Oh, I forget--those are OLD Scottsdale schools, south of (gasp) Shea Boulevard.[br />
Snottsdale is NOT the center of the universe. Sorry to disappoint.

[CTyankee]

88. Well, they should be forced to take all comers if they get public funds. nt

[madfloridian]

17. Charter schools are privately run schools which get taxpayer money.

But they are unregulated and don't have to follow the rules that public schools must follow.

Here is a good summary:

http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/26/are-charter-school-public-schools-i%E2%80%99m-afraid-not/

"First, let’s acknowledge what charter schools are. They are publicly financed schools that are run by private – usually nonprofit – organizations. Sometimes they are independent, and sometimes they are part of larger charter school organizations or chains.

The primary argument that charter schools are public schools is that they are paid for out of government funds. While they do get most of their budgets from tax dollars, that is not enough to render them public schools. There are many other organizations that pay for operations with public funds but are still private organizations. Defense contractors receive enormous sums of money from the government to provide design and manufacturing of weapons systems, but they remain private corporations. Blackwater provided labor, training and services to the Department of Defense and the State Department, but it remained a private organization.

If a construction firm is hired by a school district to build a school, it remains a private firm. If a new firm is formed to bid for a school construction job, and wins the project, it still remains a private firm. Even if that firm does such a good job that it wins future bids and does all the district’s construction work, it remains a private firm.

Frankly, I’ve not heard any other arguments that charter schools are public schools. Meanwhile, there are lots of ways in which they most definitely are not public schools"

I disagree that most are managed by non-profit. I would like to know where the writer got his figures.

Charter Management Organizations are going to get rich and richer off tax money from the public while destroying the public schools.

[Dinger]

28. You Just Ended The Argument madfloridian

Nothing else to say. Great post, as usual.:)

[NYC_SKP]

47. Let's please be careful, madfloridian. Not all Charter Schools are Private.

And these matters vary from state to state. It's best, really, not to broad brush Charter Schools as the same animal.

Let's take Venture Academy, a Charter School System (series of nine schools) operated by the San Joaquin County Office of Education.

Every staff member is a county employee and every teacher belongs to the union.

The school is filled with kids from all sorts of backgrounds, it is not an elite, selective school, far from it.

Feel free to see how the enrollment process looks: http://www.ventureacademyca.org/enrollmentnew.html



Give Sandra or Clara or Gina a call and ask them if they're a Private Charter School or a Public, truly Public Charter School.

http://www.ventureacademyca.org/faculty.html

Let us know what they say.

:patriot:

[madfloridian]

63. I did not say they were private. I said they were "privately run".

Please, after all I have written about it, do not misquote me.

They are run by such companies as KIPP, Imagine, and I will find a list if you wish. Some are run locally, yes. But they are not regulated schools.

They are all ways to turn public money over to private entities.

Giving public funds to companies to run our schools is what is happening in most instances.

oops editing out the voucher part as that was part of a reply to someone else.

[NYC_SKP]

99. No, not all are privately run. And, I said nothing of vouchers.

The points you make are valid as they apply to *some* or maybe even *most* charter schools, I don't contest them.

But there are indeed some number of Public Charter Schools, publicly run with union staff.

We ARE on the same page when it comes to funneling away public funds to private corporations.

I have no idea if it's what happens in most instances or not.

[mzteris]

179. All Charter Schools are PUBLIC schools

by definition - federal, state, local, district, Websters :) - and by practice!

There is no "elitism". Check the minority and free-lunch stats if you don't believe me. They accept all applicants unless there are pre-reqs as in any specialized school, they have blind lotteries for over-applications. They can be and are Unionized (some traditional teachers are not), the can and do serve Special Ed kids - some Charters are just for Special needs...

don't let any anti-choicer tell you different.

[alstephenson]

61. No tuition = public school (part of the definition)

If you disagree that most charter schools are managed by non-profits, where do you get YOUR figures?

[madfloridian]

71. Why don't you name some non-profits for me?

Imagine Charters run by Dennis Bakke claims to be, but they have not been proven to be.

Maybe you can find me some figures on the non-profits who run them?

Yes, there are some.

[alstephenson]

103. Either a corporation is a non-profit or they aren't.

A non-profit corporation must apply to the IRS and receive a 501(c)(3) designation, so it's fairly simple to determine if a designation has been issued. Most of the non-profit charter schools I'm involved with are small local non-profit entities formed specifically to operate a single school. But I've also worked with the "evil" CMOs - KIPP, Aspire, Achievement First, etc. What type of "figures" are you wanting me to provide?

[blondeatlast]

151. Charter Schools are public schools in their fan's eyes--until they have to do those nasty

public school things like NOT discriminate, be held accountable, or require certification for teachers and administrators.

You nailed it.

[meeshrox]

26. The charter schools supposedly clear up the problems

that the public schools have. They end up re-segregating by race, class, whatever; the public schools left holding all of the "trouble" kids (under-performing is a code word for poor, minority, etc.) end up with less funding because they have less students. On and on goes the bullshit.

But, if these people that want full privatization of schools win, all students will go to charter schools. Then, there is no way of sweeping the trouble kids under the rug; all of the students will be in charters and those schools will end up with the supposed same problems public schools face now. I guess I just made your point in a different way. The major downside I see is the privatization of schools will add a middle man, driven by profits. I suppose the profits will be based on achievement, but achievement is such a smoke-screen now, it really means nothing. For example, the schools competing for the federal grant lowered their standards to make it look like more kids were achieving the standard. On morning Joe last week, the administrator of Harlem's district bragged that they had 100% proficiency in math...how did they do that? They lowered their standards. No district will ever get 100% proficiency because not all children will perform on the same level...did they include special needs children? We are not making the same comparisons between districts or even states because states set their own standards. Another example, my state (Florida) went from being in the 40's in the national ranking of test scores to 14 to in the top 10 within 4 years. How? Our state legislature defunds education every time they mess with the budget. They lowered the standards so we look better.

To directly answer your question, any school can be a public charter school because of vouchers. Another issue I have is that vouchers are limited in number for each school year. Do you think that the poor/minority parents have time to stand in line for a voucher for their children? Hmm...

:rant:

[madfloridian]

60. Posted in wrong place.

.

[CTyankee]

142. OK, I've been thinking about the last line of your post.

Why do ANY parents have to "stand in line" for a voucher? Why can't the system be set up to grant vouchers to anyone asking w/o hassles? Once we concede that a voucher to another school outside of the kid's district is a valid idea, then it has to be made easily available. Is this argument really about such accessibility? Perhaps the whole voucher idea is suspect, no matter how accessible it is to everyone.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this...

and thanks...I'm learning a lot with this thread!

[meeshrox]

156. The voucher program has a lottery and waiting list...

but, to get in the lottery, you have to sign up...I don't know whether parents have to literally stand in line or if they have to go to the school to sign up before the other parents get there, etc. My main concern is the parents who cannot afford to take off work to sign up their kids (or are otherwise limited in how they acquire a voucher). I don't know which states have what kind of system. The lottery system automatically excludes any disadvantaged group (because they have to ask w/hassles). If the voucher program would be open to anyone without hassles, then why is the process even occurring? There would be a shuffling of students completely devoid of any order (that is, if "we concede that a voucher to another school outside of the kid's district is a valid idea"). Of course a parent will want their child at an "A" school over their poorly-funded public school, if they can get the state to pay for the otherwise unaffordable tuition. I don't think that it's a valid idea (and I don't assume you do, also). But, the purpose of a voucher program is to give the parents "choice" of schools; something that at it's core idea, really is BS to me because the idea of choice is fantasy.

My rant boils down to this: I have a solution that would never happen. If we set national standards, including the amount each school receives per student (as a nationally-averaged figure), and were able to bring back other methods of assessment (other than testing...portfolios of a student's work, for example) we just might get students back from the abyss. I know that this is a gigantic IF, and that my way is not the only way. I am in the camp that says every child is different and that they need to be evaluated differently. There are a lot of smart educators that could come up with a nationalized standard based on different types of assessment. Also, if states were required to fund each student the same amount as individuals, that may help. That would help with the segregation of funds already set up in our tax system. OK, I know, I'm talking about spreading the wealth...I'm a socialist... :eyes:

BTW, even though I am arguing about the accessibility of vouchers, I am completely against the idea of vouchers altogether.

[CTyankee]

159. As am I, if it means they can take the voucher to the school of a religious affiliation.

That is a church-state separation issue to me.

It seems to me that the voucher idea has been put on the back burner in favor of the private charter school by the right wing. But I don't know for sure...

I always laugh when people say "you can't just throw money" at improving the schools. I point out that people with money make DAMN SURE their kids get a great education, either in "enrichment" of public schools in affluent suburbs or in private prep schools that cost a small fortune (esp. if they are boarding schools). Taxes in affluent suburbs are high and the housing is totally out of reach of poor parents or even most middle class parents. But the minute that people have the money to move to one of these suburbs, they go. They want their kids to get into the Ivy League or another of the "best" colleges and universities because they know for damn sure that this is a stepping stone to success (but not always and my first husband, a "harvard man" was a good example of that exception..lol).

[meeshrox]

160. The separation issue is another one I'm infuriated about

when it comes to vouchers. I agree 100% with your statements about "throwing money" at schools! People with money are the only ones with choice!

[CTyankee]

162. For several years I raised money in Greenwich, CT as the major gifts officer of a statewide

organization. The people I dealt with were the super rich and they all sent their kids to one of 3 private schools there. I always tell my friends who are conservatives with very modest incomes, "You are voting against your best interests. It makes sense for the rich to vote this way but it doesn't for you. They don't want you in their club; they don't want me either but I've figured out their game..."

[meeshrox]

163. I see something similar with my in-laws (from the other side of the fence)

They are doing very well and happen to have the best school in the county within walking distance for all of the kids in the family. It's not surprising that's the best-off and newest neighborhood in the city. But, DAMN if someone will bus the poor kids from around the corner to this school! It's not private, but they act like it is! There is already a waiting list for vouchers, but the poor kids never end up there for some weird reason...
:crazy:

Like I said before, vouchers are the quickest way to re-segregation...

[mzteris]

182. That's why charter public schools are important. . . CHOICE

without paying. Without discrimination. Without reservation.


edit typo.

[mzteris]

181. did you know that many Charter public schools

have better results with less money than the trads in their areas?

[mzteris]

180. charters are not "voucher schools"

I'm opposed to "vouchers" for private schools unless they will pay the full and complete cost of all tuition, books, uniforms and transportation.

Oh - and religious schools need not apply. :)



Freedom of Choice is Democratic.

[Starry Messenger]

35. They aren't "that great".

The focus should be on properly funding public education.

[walldude]

94. +1 For christ sake it's not that tough.. And frankly if all these right wing

"patriots" were so fucking patriotic they would realize that if they want America to stay "great" then churning out a generation of burger flippers is probably a bad idea.

[blondeatlast]

152. Exactly. It really is that simple. nt

[kctim]

39. No, its not

there are way too many people who think THEY know best and would never let the school run how it should be ran.

[Karmadillo]

41. NO!!!! If we don't have any public schools, who will we blame? We should at least

keep one public school open in each state.

[donco6]

48. LOL! We can name it Default High School. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. Leftover Elementary

[donco6]

129. Good one. Their mascot is a bowl of moldy tuna fish casserole. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

130. And their reading program is from the 80s

[donco6]

131. booklets copied on copier and hand-stapled in the corner.

Math manipulatives are old Tupperware bowls filled with half broken Cheerios.

Science supplies are Foss kits with nothing restocked except an IOU from a teacher in 1983 saying "I owe you some Q-tips!"

The big rolls of colored paper in the teacher workroom have about 3 feet of grocery bag brown left.

The die-cut machine has one die cut of a shamrock.

[proud2BlibKansan]

133. No, not a copier. They have to use one of those purple ditto machines.

And the die cut machine also has a die cut of a Christmas tree with the top broken off.

[donco6]

135. Yup! At least the ditto fluid makes you feel so fuuunnnyyy

You know it's a good day in the workroom when someone breaks out the ditto!

[seabeyond]

66. in the 90's i may have trusted the corporations, but after two decades not a chance in hell

i trust corporations to do right by our kids

what fool notion that would be

[Sebastian Doyle]

73. Three decades

It's been a constant stream of corporate fellation from 1981. :evilfrown:

[seabeyond]

117. i dont know. 80's i was with coca cola and they treated us really well. i kinda saw the issue with

corp late 80's early 90's. but i think corp'ing our military adn other examples tells us clearly that today corps cant be trust for anything we value and regulations have to be strong which doesnt happen in todays climate

[Sebastian Doyle]

127. Well, coca-cola pulled one of the ultimate corporatist sellouts in 1985.

That "New Coke" fake - just so they could slip the High Fructose Corn Poison into "original" Coke, and hope nobody noticed.

[seabeyond]

136. that is not why they created new coke. what they did do though, was acknowledge

there mistake in trying to switch the brand and let it go.

[woodsprite]

76. The charter my daughter went to is a public charter.

Admission is by lottery, then waiting list. There is a sibling preference if the siblings are within a few years of eachother. My 2 were too far apart to take advantage of the sibling preference, so my son didn't get in. He was 162nd on the waiting list. There is also a preference if you're within a 5 mile radius of the school, then they move 10 miles out, next 20 miles. Lately, they have had enough within 5 miles that they haven't had a chance to go out to the larger radius'.

In Delaware's scheme of things, Newark Charter is it's own school district. When you look at your kid's grades on the state tests, they're only compared with their peers at their school in all categories except statewide, never the district as a whole. Kinda skews the grading a bit. They also make their own rules for days off/snow days, etc. and have their own bussing system.

If a kid is admitted and gets too many demerits, they are sent back to their local school, and move onto the next kid on the waiting list. Uniforms are required and expectations are high in all levels - even for the remedial levels, which they do have. There is no lunch funding - everyone brings their own and they eat in their homerooms or outside since there is no cafeteria. It was a strict school. Something I attributed to the transplant of so many Catholic school teachers/admins during their startup.

If all public schools were like that, that would be fine with me. But my question always was what do you do with the kids who can't make it in such a strict environment?

[donco6]

92. So, where do we get to "send the kid back" to?

Because that would solve all of our problems, wouldn't it?

[blondeatlast]

154. Stands out like a sore thumb--the charter can't do it, so

let's just "punish" the kid by hauling him back to that dreaded "public" school.

the sad thing is, charter fans can say stuff like this with nary a trace of irony--or shame.

[hayu_lol]

105. Woodsprite, it would seem that your schools, as described...

in paragraph 3 of your post, resemble to some extent, Japanese schools. Selection for yours is by lottery, in Japan, middle school kids take exams to attempt a score that will allow them to attend the high school of their choice. The schools,depending on the quality of them, takes the high scorers on those tests.

Once in the high school of choice, many Japanese kids attend a 'cram' school in addition to their regular high school. At the 3rd year level, they again take an exam in an effort to score high enough to be accepted by the college/university of their choice. This stress has caused a high percentage of suicides over the years due to failure to pass. The exams can only be taken once a year.

A bit more complicated than what I've mentioned. Doesn't matter where the high school of choice is located. Students must provide their own transportation(trolley, train, bus, bike)and might end up living by themselves--sometimes in a strange city. Such is the importance of attending exactly the 'right' school.

[woodsprite]

164. When I talk to my friend, it sound like India has some

of the same types of schools. She was lamenting because her son didn't get into our local charter and asked me if there was there anything she could 'do' to get him in. He ended up very low on the waiting list, and each year the waiting list starts over, so there was very little chance he'd get in this year. I told her just reapply in October for next year.

The stress of those 'cram' schools sounds like the Delaware State testing. My son (4th grade) said they had a party the other day to bury the DSTP (the once-a-year multi-day state test). They just finished taking that test a wk ago. Well, this Tuesday they were introduced to a sample test of the new DCAS (which will be quarterly). UGH!!! They didn't even give them a full freakin' week between the two. OR send any info home to parents about the new test yet.

[blondeatlast]

153. Heh-heh> "If a kid is admitted and gets too many demerits, they are sent back to their local school,

No irony there, at least no more so than is in my post.

GEEZ.

[KamaAina]

107. That's pretty much what they've done in NOLA since Katrina

the few non-charter schools are run directly by the state through the "Recovery School District". The former Orleans Parish (county) School Board now is basically a charter operator with a few schools on the West Bank of the city, which did not flood.

Word on the street is that the charters are cherry-picking students, to the point where rival recruiters are working the same Wal-Mart parking lot, while students with disabilities and others demmed "less desirable" :grr: get shunted to the RSD schools.

[ibegurpard]

113. right wing?

try our current Education Secretary...oh wait..

[Bluebear]

172. +

[mzteris]

165. ALL Charter schools are PUBLIC schools.

They accept all who apply and if too many apply they admit by blind lottery.

SOME Charters have "qualifications" - in the same way that some traditional public schools do - for instance, in a foreign language immersion program, there is usually a "set-aside" of apprx 50% of native foreign language speakers. Most schools also try to maintain an equitable gender and minority equation. Some schools are "all male" or "all female", though. Some are about African American studies, so they tend to be 100% African American. Some admit only children who meet certain criteria - for instance - an arts school. If you're going to go to a school for advanced ballet, well, then - you have to be able to do ballet pretty damn well. And don't forget, please - that there are traditional public schools with these same types of criteria.

Generally, speaking, however, - charters are available to all who apply.

They are still held to the same STATE EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS as the traditionals. The difference is that they are allowed some latitude in how they attain those goals via teaching methodology and school environment.

Yes, they accept and serve Special Ed kids.

Yes, they accept Free Lunch and minority children. In fact, the percentages of those may surprise you . . .

All Charter public schools (and again, all charter schools are public schools) are NON-PROFIT.

TEN PERCENT of all Charter public schools are MANAGED by a "for-profit organization" - these organizations ALSO manage some traditional public schools.

Another Ten percent of all charter public schools are MANAGED by "non-profit charter organizations".

The other 80 percent are opened, managed, and operated by LOCAL INDIVIDUALS comprised of TEACHERS, PARENTS, and concerned business men/women of the community who have an interest in the children of their community being educated.

Some Charter public schools are Unionized. Some are not. Some traditional public school teachers are NOT Union, either. . .

There are some "bad" Charter public schools just as there are some "bad" traditional public schools. A lot depends on how the state has written the laws governing the Charter schools. Are there some unethical people who take advantage of the system - unfortunately, yes - just as in every walk of life.. The key is to write the laws to close any loopholes for exploitation, and to catch the bad guys. Not shut down the entire institution because of a few bad apples. One of the best things about charters, if they're no good - they're gone pretty damn quickly.


Charters can be - and are - another effective method of delivering the type of education a child may need. One size does NOT fit all. Ever. We need more choices to meet need.


I'm a Democrat and I believe in Choice!

[Dinger]

183. Charter Schools Are A Little Bit Public, Just Like Women Who Are A Little Bit Pregnant

Women are 100% pregnant or not, and schools are 100% public or not.

[mzteris]

184. They are ALL PUBLIC - 100% of them, 100% of the time.

[Dinger]

185. No They Are Not

Accountability doesn't mean shit if standards are different. Charters and public schools need to be rated equally, on all levels. That is not currently the case.

Wisconsin Charter School Yearbook: http://dpi.wi.gov/sms/pdf/2009-10yearbook.pdf



From the Wisconsin Charter Schools Yearbook (2009-2010), Part 2, Section D:
"D: What Charter Schools Can and Cannot Do
Charter schools in Wisconsin are exempt from most state requirements regarding
public education."


Section F (Teaching Requirements):

F: Teaching Requirements
The DPI licenses teachers in specific subject areas and at specific grade levels. To
give charter schools more flexibility in their staffing, the DPI has created a charter *Different than public schools
school teaching license to allow licensed teachers to teach any subject or any *Different than public schools
grade in the charter school.Charter schools can also employ other professionals
who are not trained as teachers by using a DPI-issued charter school teaching *Very different than public schools
permit. Applicants for the charter school teaching permit must have either a
bachelor’s degree in the subject area to be taught or in a related field or formal
proof of mastery in the trade they are assigned to teach. Permit holders must be
supervised by a fully licensed teacher. *Still not the same.


The staff members of non-instrumentality charter schools are not employees
of the school district or chartering authority. Thus, they are not eligible to
participate in the Wisconsin Retirement System and are not members of the local
teachers union. *union busting



Section I (Accountability)

I: Accountability
A charter school is a "public school "that is exempt from many traditional state and local rules and
regulations, thus allowing greater flexibility in how it achieves student success. *Public schools do NOT have this flexibility.


No, they are not as "public' as true public schools, therefore, they are not public.

[mzteris]

186. They ARE - you're "interpretation" notwithstanding. n/t

[Dinger]

187. Whatever. To Each His/Her Own I Guess (nt)

[ncteechur]

188. In NC, charter schools ARE public schools but with some relaxed policies that enable more

control from the charter organization than from the local BOE. But they are public schools.

[mzteris]

190. all charter schools are public schools

ALL.