N.J. teen sold stepsister, 7, for party sex

[Liberal_in_LA]

Police: N.J. teen sold stepsister, 7, for party sex

TRENTON, N.J. (AP) — A 15-year-old New Jersey girl prostituted herself and her 7-year-old stepsister to have sex with as many as seven men and boys at a weekend party near their home in a crime-plagued neighborhood, police said.

Trenton police Capt. Joseph Juniak said Wednesday that the older girl started by taking money to have sex with several men at the party of a high-rise apartment. The teen then gave some of the money she had collected to the younger girl to let the men start touching her, Juniak said.

"It went from touching to straight out assault and rape," Juniak said. "They threatened to kill her if she screamed or told anyone."

The child later put on her clothes and left the apartment; her sister stayed. Two women found the child crying outside the apartment and walked her home.

The teen is charged with aggravated sexual assault, promoting prostitution and other crimes. Her name was not released because of her age. She was being held in a juvenile detention facility in Mercer County, but police did not know whether she had an attorney.

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Police believe as many as a dozen people were at the party. They are trying to track down the men and boys who attended and are reviewing building surveillance videos and additional arrests are expected.

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The child was treated at a hospital, and police said child protective services is working with the family to get her psychological help.

Trenton Mayor Doug Palmer called the crime "sickening" and said it was among the worst he's seen in his 20 years as mayor.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-31-new-jersey-sisters_N.htm?csp=24&RM_Exclude=Juno

[BlooInBloo]

1. Oh for fucking fuck's sake.

Poor girl. Hopefully someone who actually cares about her will come into her life.

:(

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[comrade snarky]

12. Nice fox news question there. (nt)

[seabeyond]

17. since i hear those comments on du.... i hardly think has anything to do with fox. nice ducking of

societal responsibility and abuse of female in general.

[comrade snarky]

20. Next up on Fox

Are all men monsters who will rape a 7 year old girl if give half a chance. Should they all be blamed?

We ask. Seabeyond decides.

[seabeyond]

22. pretty monstrous raping a 7 yr old, dontcha think? now, why can you not address the fact that

a dozen men/boys were there and nothing was done about it but use the girl?

much better to do a stupid post on fox, deny the issue at hand, and pretend there is not any problems.

[Cali_Democrat]

24. The biggest monster in this case is the 15-year-old girl who prostituted her 7-year-old sister.

Make no mistake about it, there are many criminals here that belong in jail for years.

But the biggest criminal in this case is the 15-year-old sister.

[seabeyond]

25. boys/men fucking a 7 yr old just have a "little" part in the whole mess? really?

this 15 yr old is pretty fucked up, but ya.... real issues there and a huge part in the mess. but a man simply saying.... no, is too much to ask? a man picking up the phone and calling cops is asking too much? a man protecting the 7 yr old is too high an expectation? the 15 yr old did not rape. the boys/men raped.

no, i dont see anyones participation in this violent act against the 7 yr old less than anothers.

[Number23]

54. COMPLETELY agree.

"the 15 yr old did not rape. the boys/men raped."

What the 15-year old did was disgusting but the actions taken by those men were far, far worse.

[RedRocco]

110. Agreed these men are despicable, but

perhaps we should be asking ask what made the 15 y/o desperate enough to sell herself and her little sister for a gangbang in the first place.

[Hello_Kitty]

115. Perhaps we could stop the incessant focus on women's behavior in sexual assualts

And ask why a group of men thought it was okay to gang rape a 7 year old.

That might provide some insight into the 15 year old. She is a monster but it wouldn't be surprising if she'd had her childhood violated.

[Gwendolyn]

140. Perhaps we should stop with the pathetic victim feminism and place responsibility where it belongs.

Maybe those boys and men also had their childhoods violated. They all live in a shithole where it's doubtful they got any nurturing from anyone.

Pathetic how supposed feminists all push this crap that all women are so weak-minded and malleable they need to be coddled at every turn, and yet boys and men are supposed to be in charge and responsible. Want the double standard to stop? Then quit promoting it with your bullshit.

[Hello_Kitty]

151. OMG.

Jesus God.

Pathetic how supposed feminists all push this crap that all women are so weak-minded and malleable they need to be coddled at every turn, and yet boys and men are supposed to be in charge and responsible. Want the double standard to stop? Then quit promoting it with your bullshit.

:wow: Just :wow:

I don't know what bizarro world you live in but I live in the one where women are held responsible for the sexual behavior of every male in their midst. Does the phrase "boys will be boys" ring a bell? Do you think that common expression has a basis in men being assumed to "be in charge and responsible" of their sexual behavior?

Note that the headlines are "15 Year Old Girl Pimps Out 7 Year Old Sister" not "Group Of Men Rape A 7 Year Old". Why do you think that is? This isn't the first time a woman has had a culpable role in the rape of a child. That happens all the time. Women sell their children into prostitution, ignore sex abuse by their romantic partners, etc. And when such a woman is present in a horrific case, she becomes the monster and the villain and the role of the male perpetrators is diminished in the public mind. Boys will be boys, you know.

[Gwendolyn]

157. Baloney. If the story was about a male family member pimping out the kid, that would be the headline

That's because it's the height of depraved and grotesque human indecency imaginable. And if the story was about a brother who pimped out his sister, you'd be the first among your little clique to go on and on and on about how revolting and vile his behavior was, and how he should be put into prison for life. But because it's a female who behaved like an animal, she somehow deserves to be excused and her role shouldn't even be discussed. If anyone does, then oh well, they're rape apologists and male privilege proponents. THAT'S the point. Nobody here is diminishing rape or excusing the rapists at all. That's your made up fairy tale to suit your agenda.

If you want equal privileges, then be prepared to accept equal responsibility. It's really as simple as that.

[Hello_Kitty]

162. I feel it's my responsibility to challenge rape culture

Rape culture tells people that others are to blame for the actions of rapists.

[Gwendolyn]

181. I understand. And I feel it's my responsibility to work toward equal pay and equal status.

With economic power, women will be able to fashion change and elect reps who will take care of our goals. We'll never get there if we keep insisting that men are responsible for our self-esteem, sexuality and whatever else. Women want deference for our emotions and actions and then what, walk into the boss's office and ask for that managerial promotion?

And here's something else to ponder. Seabeyond doesn't work and there are a few who don't understand social interaction, but you do work so I know you'll get it. Ever walk into a meeting where someone starts it off by saying "well, I'm expecting the mentally challenged to come up with the stupidest ideas in about 4 seconds"? Do you think that'd spark a discussion? What's the difference between that and the same few people who show up first thing on these threads and say "in a minute the disgusting rape apologists will show up, they're here in droves"? All you get is people who are insulted and end up defending themselves. What do you expect?

[seabeyond]

183. i dont work, ergo, anything i have to say doesnt matter? i beg your pardon. this is the new improved

feminist?

are you an expert on my life, what i have done, what i have accomplished.

you dont know shit woman....

i was single until i was 32. i 'worked" plenty. i started at 12 in business father owned. i worked over 20 yrs in workforce. probably as much as you. i "worked" after i got married. and though i am not in the work force, i work now

what a bunch of sexist bullshit you spew out.

[Hello_Kitty]

184. DU isn't a work environment. It's a message board.

Totally different milieu. People do the "any minute now X will show up to defend..." thing on threads about fat people, smoking, vegetarianism, free trade, and host of other topics. Invariably, X shows up do whatever was predicted that X will do, which is usually to push some strawman or red herring that doesn't address the substance of the issue. When the topic is rape, invariably the threads devolve into arguments about "male bashing" and "broad brushes", which means that no examination or discussion the culture of rape takes place.

[Gwendolyn]

185. Social interaction doesn't change no matter the milieu. It's actually a good analogy.

When you aggressively go after people before they've had a chance to speak you shut down conversation and it becomes confrontational and defensive. If you're wondering why men have been focussing on defending themselves rather than contribute to the discussion then look no further than that first insulting post. And it's then totally dishonest, childish and passive aggressive to later on downthread say "aha, men don't give a shit about women. Look they're obsessed with their wittle feewings." Same goes for those other topics you mentioned, and those who ruin discussions with those posts are lamer than lame in my book.

[Hello_Kitty]

194. The men who focus on defending themselves do so because they can't defend rape culture

They, and you, can't defend a culture that says that all women and children are available for the sexual gratification of men (unless they have male protectors). If they, or you, really cared about stopping rape, then they, and you, would stop derailing the discussion.

Either you want to stop rape or you don't.

[Gwendolyn]

195. This is the most laughable post yet.

And this is how it works for you and your little group.

1. Man DU night and day until a gender-related thread shows up. Be the first to make a broad-brush, sweeping insulting post about a group of people (in this case men) then wait.

2. People of course will then defend themselves against the broad-brush insults which is the perfect opening to further belittle and sneer at the group in question.

3. When they begin to respond in kind with the same level of snark and sneering derision you all then feel validated in your point of view.

If you don't think anyone with half a brain can see through that childish tactic you are mistaken.

And again, in this particular instance, if the pimp had been a male, you all would've been absolutely thrilled to call him the worst piece of shit that ever lived... but since you're all victim feminists, and the pimp happens to be female, she gets coddling and embracing. Such pathetica on one thread is hard to come by, but it's no surprise. If you want to stop rape, I suggest you forget the loser victim feminist, passive aggressive tactics, and focus on something more productive. It's people like you and your little crew that keep us in the dark ages and hamper our progress.

[Hello_Kitty]

196. Tell me, Gwendolyn, what would that "more productive" thing be?

If you want to stop rape, I suggest you forget the loser victim feminist, passive aggressive tactics, and focus on something more productive.

Seriously, what are your ideas on some productive steps toward eradicating rape?

[Gwendolyn]

199. Teach girls that their self-esteem is not dependent upon males.

Teach them that they are not the weaker sex deserving of special coddling and treatment, but instead that they are as capable and as brilliant as males, and therefore just as responsible and culpable for their actions. That they own their own sexuality and what they do with it is again, their responsibility. That's just for starters, and it's a good one.

There are people, like some of those on this thread, who want it both ways. They want respect, but then insist on this bull crap that women aren't capable of managing their own sex lives, that we're so fragile we're actually mesmerized by men, especially evil ones. We're so sensitive that the slightest hurt will utterly destroy our self-esteem. Aren't men lucky they don't have those issues, because being a weak garden waif sounds like a shit life to me. One woman on this thread decided that men should fight over us, they way they did 100 years ago when we were still property.

And that's the point. The more victim feminists want coddling and special treatment while foisting all responsibility for relationships on men, the more that puts men in leadership positions. And the more men are in charge, the more they own us. And when they own us they can pretty much do anything they want. Which includes rape. They whole idea is to get away from those archaic ideals, be responsible for ourselves and be better equipped to fight those ownership/rape attitudes.

[NashVegas]

210. WTF?

At what point do you stop and realize that observing the 15 YO's behavior was most likely learned in unfortunate circumstances does not *necessarily* equal coddling, while saying that she is more to blame than any of the men who violently raped a 7 YO, is most definitely fucked up beyond belief.

[Hello_Kitty]

213. There's nothing resembling a solution in there.

We can have self esteem and responsibility until the cows come home, but that's not going to stop men from raping.

You said not a single thing about men. Not one thing. As far as you are concerned rape is 100% the fault of women.

[Gwendolyn]

215. Then you haven't read very closely. Changing attitudes is very much a part of it all.

But pray tell, do educate me on how hovering at DU 24/7 to screech at men with the same tired line about rape apology is going to change things for anyone? None of you have offered any kind of solution. All you're doing is make people change the channel, which is what I'm about to do. Most of DU's wise women steer clear of these silly threads and I think I'll follow their lead from now on.

[Hello_Kitty]

216. Good, because you have nothing to add.

Nothing. Same old stale victim blaming.

[Gwendolyn]

218. That's hilarious. You have a lot of nerve telling other women they condone rape.

That's just for starters. Same old bullshit hyperbole from you and your little drama-lovin' crew. And secondly, you're actually proposing that sitting on a message board ranting at men who've done nothing is somehow productive and going to change things. Knee-slapping funny. From what I can see, all you do is alienate a bunch of people. Same old stale, useless railing and screaming with nothing to show for it.

[Hello_Kitty]

222. I'm not saying you condone rape. I'm saying you blame the victims and women for it. eom.

[Gwendolyn]

224. One more try and then that's it. You're being purposefully obtuse.

I told you early on that I believe economic power will free women from a lot of the shit they bear right now. With cash in their pockets they can leave, or altogether avoid abusive relationships where they have to take rape in order to eat. It will give women the clout to elect women and men who will institute educational programs in schools so kids learn respect and how to treat one another better. Economic power has given men the opportunity to do whatever they please and can do the same for women including the rejection of current societal norms and pandering to men in favor of more equitable relations. If you don't think that would do a lot to change the rape stats then there's no hope for you.

And yes, my other post concentrated on women, although I have plenty to say about men. But the fact is, I can't stop my neighbor from teaching his boy to be a cocky little bastard with a sense of entitlement that reaches the sky. I can however, teach my daughter to reject those values starting at a young age, and if enough mothers do the same, the cocky little bastards of the world are left with no power. No power means they have to change their mindset to get anywhere. Without the sense of entitlement, rape doesn't sound like a great option anymore.

There will always be an issue with rape. The very act of sex is visceral and animal and in passionate relationships there is a sense of possessing each other. The evil and sick among us will always twist that to incur pain and suffering, and as we know, heterosexual rape is not the only problem. The trick is to keep the stats as low as possible, even if we won't ever eradicate the crime.

I think you are a very intelligent woman Kitty, but you really seem to have your opinions wrapped sushi-like inside a brick wall that prevents you from even considering another point of view. Either that, or you just don't want to and don't give a shit. I'm sure you think that impotently screaming about rape and calling people out is a much better solution but at least I've offered tangible goals.

[seabeyond]

225. yes, a mother needs to teach her daughter all of that. as the father teaches son respectful

to girl and his own worth in masculinity without the need for degradation of females to feel manly.

i think that was the whole point of this sub thread gwen. and you said it so eloquently.

i am glad we were able to come to an agreement.

i am a firm believer in what you preach we teach our daughters, and we ask our men to do the same with their gender.

listening to nrp this evening it was about a youth group fighting the violence of the youths in Philadelphia. kids, telling adults, that the kids had to resolve. the kids had to take on the responsibility. dont make the kids out to be violent, because that is what will be. dont make schools into prisons and treat the kids like criminals because it will reciprocate with violence. but the kids will address the issue and help the kids to resolve issue without violence thru different creative and thoughtful procedures.

but the kids needed to get a handle on it and address their fellow peers

again, as i listened to that, i was thrilled and proud with how forceful they felt the need to address the issue, and the empowerment it gave them. i thought about this thread, men saying, wont own what a few sick fucks do. those kids arent "owning" the violence of their peers. but they are addressing it. and refuse to be quiet, submissive or dismissive of it.

as i listen to you talk about what to do with our daughter, the empowerment we give them

and i say

why cant we want that same empowerment being given to our sons, thru the male community. why cant we make the suggestion. why cant we have the expectation.

when i say our males need to address their gender. this is what i am talking about. no less than you saying we females need to address our gender.

now tell me gwen, where is the victim in that. and where is the persecuted in that.

[Book Lover]

180. Now, it sounds like you're saying that it's too much to expect an adult man to stop other men from

raping a 7 year old. Sorry, it's not.

[CTyankee]

163. The 15 yr. old might have been abused from an early age, herself and

so literally her frame of reference was one of constant abuse from an early age on. We don't know the half of what actually happens in this girl's world...perhaps she thought this is the way things just ARE. Frightening and sad but perhaps it is chillingly predictable...

[Hello_Kitty]

172. I agree. Doesn't mean she's not culpable for her crime, but yeah.

The likelihood that she was a victim herself is high.

It's possible that some of the men who committed the rape are also victims of sex abuse themselves.

[CTyankee]

177. This is what is so awful for us to even think about.

Where is she supposed to get her sense of right and wrong if in her world this was the "norm"?

[Gwendolyn]

182. Yes, you could be right. Or she's just a sociopath.

It's probably likely that one or more of the rapists had a crack addict mother who beat them with an electrical cord. Honestly, when it comes to these kinds of crimes who cares? They still all deserve to go to prison for a very long time. If one of them touched me, I'd want him dead. The how's and the why's are for esoteric conversations, but these reasons do nothing in the real world to help the victims or lessen their pain.

[CTyankee]

186. We ignore the why's and how's at our peril. If we don't figure out this pathology and cure it

we are a doomed nation. This is OUR choice: we can sit here and condemn and pat ourselves on the back for being so virtuous OR we can get down to the hard thinking about what we are going to do about it. It's as simple as that.

[Gwendolyn]

192. There is no cure for the pathology. Getting people out of poverty and thug life would help a lot.

But that won't happen as we all know.

It's just curious that there is such sympathy and concern for this girl who has exhibited more cruelty than one can imagine, along with the urge to figure out what went wrong, yet there is none for the rapists who likely have grown up in horribly abusive circumstances. I admit, I don't have empathy for any of them. There are many, many abused people who don't go on to harm others. And if we're going to agree that those who've had unfortunate childhoods are not to blame when they commit crime, that it's understandable, why do we let them walk the streets? We're basically saying bad childhood = predisposition to violence.

[CTyankee]

207. Rape is not confined to poor communities. Rape occurs in every stratum of society.

It is worth pondering why. If social conditions are not the problem, something must be. Just because I am middle class does not mean I am smug and confident that it doesn't happen in "my" social class because we have "better" social conditioning.

I thinkyou are right about the degrading influence of poverty on the actions of the 15 year old. As I have argued, she was doubtless abused herself...many times the abused become the abuser. What would happen to you or me if we had been reared in such conditions? Would we have acquired the moral compass we now feel we have? If you are taught by your own personal experience that being raped is the natural condition of a girl's life, then it shouldn't surprise us that this child "sold" her stepsister...

[Gwendolyn]

217. Of course you're right... it doesn't happen only in poor communities.

As far as stranger rape goes though, I know I feel safer walking in certain areas of town more than others.

What you say about the abused becoming the abuser is true as well. That's also manifested in the actions of pedophiles, serial killers and rapists in general. Sure, there are people out there dissecting the minds of these monsters to figure out what happened, but in the mean time, no one wants to run into a Ted Bundy and it's doubtful any victim would've felt better knowing he did it because he had an abusive grandfather and a lousy girlfriend. The poor little girl who was raped will likely never get over what her sister subjected her to.

As well, we're really only surmising that the girl was abused. She may be troubled in many ways that don't necessarily include sexual abuse, which will probably all come out in the wash at some later date.

[Cali_Democrat]

72. Of course a man simply saying no isn't too much to ask

Someone should have reported what was going on and anyone involved in the rape should be behind bars. PERIOD!

But the 15-year old sold her own sister as a prostitute. That is horrific.

[seabeyond]

73. yes. it is horrific. nt

[thursdayofmysteries]

171. And even more so, where is the compassion for the 15-year-old

girl, who I am almost positive has been a victim of sexual abuse herself? We know that 95% of all sex offenders are men, so for a young woman to commit such a crime is highly unusual and speaks to a severe disturbance of her mind in some way. I maintain that we will discover that she had been violated repeatedly to get to this wretched state.

[Maru Kitteh]

65. OMG I can't believe I just read that on DU. NO NO NO the "biggest" monster is NOT the 15 yo

The biggest monsters are the buckets of pus that RAPED A SEVEN YEAR OLD.

The minor female is a close second, a VERY CLOSE second, but second none the less.

[jmowreader]

92. No, the 15-year-old is worse

The 15-year-old brought the 7-year-old to that apartment, probably with the full intention of selling her stepsister to adult men for sex.

If the 15-year-old would not have brought the 7-year-old to the apartment there would have been no sex with the 7-year-old.
If the 15-year-old would not have told the men something on the order of, "if you think I am tight, for a hundred bucks you can fuck my sister who's REALLY tight," there would have been no sex with the 7-year-old.
And if the 15-year-old would not have given the 7-year-old money to be "touched," there wouldn't have been any sex with the 7-year-old.

So...since the 15-year-old was the catalyst for the whole thing, she's the biggest monster.

Someone upthread was pointing out that none of the men did anything to stop it. Well, why would they have? They went to that apartment with the specific intention of paying money to fuck children, so when they were offered the chance to screw a grade schooler they probably thought that was the greatest thing that ever happened to them.

We have seven people here who really, really need to face a firing squad. Anyone who would pay to have sex with someone who hasn't graduated the second grade doesn't need to live.

[NashVegas]

100. Bullshit. Everyone Of Them Had and Made a Choice

Except for the 7 year old.

All these people who think having a penis means not having to own your shit, I wish they'd all just shrivel off. It'd be the best thing to happen to society in 100 years.

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maru Kitteh]

214. Thankyou Nash. n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

117. It's so great that this story has an evil female to focus on.

That way we can, once again, ignore the motivations of the men.

Why do some men think it's okay to rape children? Who cares!

[Scout]

123. and don't dare mention, because then you are just a big old man-hater

you meany!

WHY DO YOU ACCUSE ALL MEN OF BEING RAPISTS???

[Hello_Kitty]

130. I know, because I said some men like to rape children

That means I said ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS!!1!

Let's not even start a discussion about rape culture and male privilege. Their heads literally explode!

[Regret My New Name]

170. I think the sister is evil and a horrible person...

but I think the men who did it are just as bad, if not worse.

[LeftishBrit]

126. I fully agree

Any grown man who wants to rape a small child is just fucking sick.

The sister's behaviour was sick too, but couldn't have happened without the men's willingness. Also, it leads to a suspicion that the sister had also experienced sexual abuse, or where did such ideas occur to her? The whole family setting needs to be investigated.

[fishwax]

94. I don't agree -- It's hard to get more monstrous than raping a seven-year-old

[thursdayofmysteries]

169. I don't know about you, but a 15-year-old girl pimping out her sister

sounds like a girl who is very disturbed. And it is most likely that she was molested at some point in her life and is acting out sexually. When you interview prostitutes, strippers and porn stars, the vast majority were sexually abused. When you feel like a piece of filth, sometimes it's easier to either profit from it or foist it on another person (or in this case, both) rather than have to live within a body that has been exploited.

[comrade snarky]

27. Try reading further down the thread and remembering my screen name

You'll find comments about the crime.

I have nothing to justify to you and have not posted once about Fox. I compared your disingenuous asking of "questions" to Fox's identical tactic.

"Is Obama a Muslim terrorist"

"there just happened to be a dozen pedophiles all in one spot, or our male population is having a real tough time with a blury line of what is sexually appropriate?"

Oh yeah, the problem here is the "male population". I'm sure it was the "male population" that forced this teenage girl to sell her little sisters body. No, don't mention of that part of the story. That doesn't fit the narrative you want.

There are plenty of problems in this society but you seem to have a personal axe to grind.

[seabeyond]

28. so you chose to ignore the question about a dozen men/boys participating or allowing

rape of a 7 yr old. and because i recognize that our society has issue in this area, an area that is important to discuss, to acknowledge adn recognized in order to maybe help get beyond this.... you equate it to fox.

wrong

when a dozen men/boys are willing to rape a 7 year old, that is pretty clear it is not about pedophilla. why are you not willing to admit, recognize that.

pushing it to a fox question is burying your head in the sand like a fox news watcher.

[comrade snarky]

30. Not good at reading are you?

I equated you to Fox. Not the issues in our society.

Your issues.

And the way you backhandedly slapped at 1/2 the human race is the guise of asking a question. I want to be able to discuss this crime and it's ramifications and meaning. You've shown yourself incapable of doing so by concentrating on the portion of the crime that fits the narrative you like while ignoring the part that doesn't.

I find your pretense of concern to be a smoke screen for the narrative you push.

:edited for a tpyo

[seabeyond]

32. yes, you brought up fox when i discussed my issue about a dozen men/boys raping or allowing

rape of a 7 yr old girl and how there was not a dozen pedophiles in that room. that something is up when men/boys who are not pedophiles feel it is acceptable to rape a 7 yr old girl. and wanting to acknowledge adn recognize so we can get to the point of addressing

fox has nothing to do with the post i made..... talk about straw man. but wtf... ignore the issue i did bring up. much better to bury head in sand so you dont have to see

[comrade snarky]

38. Like talking to a wall

You and Fox News share a dishonest rhetorical style. I can say it no clearer than that.

Now you're going on about how the men who raped a 7 year old aren't pedophiles? Uh, yeah... they are. Your assumptions are that these were 7 random men and boys picked off the street is your own. I don't know how this teenager picked this group of 7 and neither do you. It could have been some men who molested her when she was younger, ,t could be a carefully selected group she knew would pay or it could be that she got "lucky" and found 7 disgusting men.

No, it's your assumption that these 7 men and boys are perfect statistical stand-ins for "our male population" who are just jumping at the chance to rape 7 year olds.

That's all about you.

[seabeyond]

43. so you are saying a dozen pedophiles ended up in the same place? that is your position?

see, it isnt a matter of talking to a wall. it is a matter of that not making any sense and me not agreeing with you.

i think there is a bigger issue here

you are so busy with personal attacks and denial you are refusing to even acknowledge that i am talking about a bigger issue

[comrade snarky]

44. Kind of a personal attack to imply "our male population"

Would jump at a chance to rape a 7 year old isn't it?

I don't know what the hell your definition of pedophile is but the one I know isn't somehow limited by numbers. Are the Catholic priests somehow not pedophiles because there were more than 10 of them?

Shit yes these people are pedophiles. They raped a 7 year old girl! What the hell is hard to understand about that?


:edited for typo and numeric clarity

[seabeyond]

47. i am sorry that you dont see it as a problem in the male community. i did tell you, a handful of

our males on du proudly boast that at puberty girl is free game. i have yet to see our male dems jump on these guys ass. puberty for girl can hit as young as 10. and still they wont back down. our old men talk about going to a cheerleader carwash and joke and laugh at lusting after the 13, 14, 15 yr old girls washing their car... something admirable in our old men.

you might want to do a little reflection on "our" male population

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[comrade snarky]

56. Perhaps I went to far in my last post

So I'll try again with slightly less invective. Sorry mods.

"i did tell you, a handful of our males on du proudly boast that at puberty girl is free game."

Did men on DU say that the same way the article talks about "as many as" 7 men and boys raping this little girl which then somehow becomes a dozen men and boys in your posts?

To put it simply, I do not believe that you are capable of reporting what happened without putting it through the extreme filter of what you want to see. That has become quite clear on this thread as these 7 disgusting people almost doubled in number and somehow became not pedophiles who raped a 7 year old.

You might want to do a little reflection on what you desire to believe.

[seabeyond]

59. "as many as a dozen people were at the party". nt

[comrade snarky]

61. And that invalidates what I posted how exactly?

Up to 7 men or boys molesting the little girl became a dozen in your posts.

[seabeyond]

64. i saw no where in the article 7 men OR boys. i did see, however, up to a dozen. and

copied and pasted it for you.

maybe you will reciprocate and show me where it says up to 7 men or boys......

[comrade snarky]

69. Here you go. First paragraph of the article

"TRENTON, N.J. (AP) — A 15-year-old New Jersey girl prostituted herself and her 7-year-old stepsister to have sex with as many as seven men and boys at a weekend party near their home in a crime-plagued neighborhood, police said."


First sentence of the linked article and the OP. You apparently picked the bold-ed part at the bottom which notes how many people may have been at the party and decided that larger number was better.

If you want to see it in the original, scroll up.

[seabeyond]

74. wooosh, i feel so much be that only 7 men and boys raped and up to a dozen did nothing. nt

[comrade snarky]

77. Ignoring the point, Seabeyond responds with something meaningless

To the issue being discussed.

And with that... the point is made. The obvious fact that information available front and center in the article and the OP was ignored in favor of what you misread and wanted to believe is never going to make it past your filter. It fits too well into the narrative to which you ascribe.

[seabeyond]

79. and still, snarky, you have yet to address my point. or the other women

on this thread that feel the same as i.

but... you have the audacity to call scout out as not one to deal with the issue, but imply you are part of the group to solve. hugely insulting.

protect the ego at all cost. even if at the expense of a 7 yr old girl. because your ego is just so much more important than what is happening in the male culture today.

[comrade snarky]

80. Sorry, maybe you didn't understand

That was the end of the conversation we are having. I'll not be diving down any other rabbit holes with you however many insults you toss out. It's not worth it.

Scout can say whatever she likes to me. I'm sure she doesn't need you to do it for her.


:edited to add

It's common courtesy on DU to point out the portions of a post you add later. However just like the rest of your post I'm done with that last insult as well.

Sing it to the wind.

[seabeyond]

82. i will post when i chose, i will post what i chose, without your "permission".

what kind of an ass tells people when the conversation is over and what they can talk about. and STILL you ignore the point. all in this together dude, you have to at least put a foot in.

[EOTE]

98. Are you capable of using intellectual honesty in any of your posts?

Dear god, you can't fess up to anything and you expect people to have legitimate discussions with you. Quite frankly, comparing you to Fox would be rather kind. Occasionally, every so often, Fox will actually issue a retraction. You, however, feel free to spew your misandrist garbage as much as you wish, get called on your lies or willful perversions of the truth and never do a damned thing about it. I know you think you're not being sexist, but you're quite wrong.

[NashVegas]

101. Molesting?

Honey, it was rape. Stop minimizing it.

[comrade snarky]

103. Really?

I was using that term to differentiate between the statutory rape of the apparently willing 15 year old and drive home what was done to this little child.

I am unaware that the term "molestation" somehow implies the contact is not rape in nature. Oh right, it doesn't.


Minimizing it... Fucking hell that is offensive. Honey.

[NashVegas]

127. Oh My, That's So Interesting

Perhaps you would do better to study the subject more.

[comrade snarky]

134. You believe using the term molesting implies consent?

Or were you just trying to score some stupid little point?

[NashVegas]

141. It's a Huge Point, Really

Try asking someone who says they were molested as a kid if they'd say they were raped, and vice verse.

[comrade snarky]

144. Whatever you do, don't try to explain it

I'm sure it's more fun for you to claim I minimized the attack on this little girl even though I have used the term rape throughout this discussion.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dogtown]

219. For what it's worth,

seabeyond and I have discussed this thread by PM and I'm satisfied that she is posting with sincerity.




I have asked the Mods to delete my other subthread responding to Post #47.


I did promise in that subthread to make this post if she and I could reach an understanding. I keep my promises.

[snooper2]

83. What she is trying to say is all men are pigs

And given the chance out of the 80-100 men working in the same office as I, at least half of them would rape a 7 year old given the chance.


Except her husband and three sons, they are perfect....

[Scout]

89. funny that when they do studies, a HUGE percentage of males

say they WOULD commit rape if they knew they would get away with it.

except those 80-100 men you work with....

[seabeyond]

93. no. i am not trying to say, nor have i said.... but wtf snoopers nt

[Chan790]

131. To answer your original question...

because it does deserve an answer rather than being shunted into being a "FOX Question".

"there just happened to be a dozen pedophiles all in one spot, or our male population is having a real tough time with a blurry line of what is sexually appropriate?"

I don't think "just happened" really happens to be the case here, according to my understanding of scenario: A bunch of men showed up to an apartment where they had been promised an opportunity to engage in sexual activity and intercourse with a 15 year old in exchange for money. From such, we can deduce some rudimentary facts in a logical hierarchical order:

1. We're not dealing with a situation where coincidence is involved in the make-up of the individuals present. It was a "party" designed to cater to pedophiles.
2. Not surprisingly, we probably have a room full of pedophiles. (Fulfillment of a self-selecting criterion.) So, we're not exactly dealing with the most moral cadre of humanity ever assembled.
3. The opportunity to fondle, violate and rape a 7 year old was also presented to them for additional money.
4. Some participants jumped at this opportunity.
5. The rest did nothing to intervene, either individually because they saw nothing wrong with it (because they are, after all, pedophiles or people not opposed to pedophilia or, minimally, very-morally-disgusting people.) or because they were actively supportive of it.

Thus I do feel confident in positing the following:

• The answer to your posed question is likely the former, rather than the latter...which is not to minimize how diseased our culture is becoming in regards to the sexualization of children.
• The line between fucking and not-fucking a 7 year old is still not-blurry for at-least 99% of the population. I've noticed that nobody has yet suggested or will that there is nothing wrong with this scenario.
• Humanity sucks. While disheartening, it can't be called surprising that nobody in attendance felt compelled to intervene or contact the authorities. Their very attendance at such a shindig is in-and-of-itself criminal.
• There is no real necessity to assert who is worse: the guys or the sister. There are enough spots on the sex-offender registry for all of them and jail-cells for a good long time. Here's to hoping that none of them ever see daylight again.

[seabeyond]

149. lol, see, not so hard. i appreciate your post. a couple things

i didnt realize that it was first promoted there would be a 15 yr old to fuck, hence the gathering of pedophiles.

that is a point, that would tend to suggest the possibility that a gathering could be of pedophiles instead of a random happening of it. BUT

then i have to say

how many men (i know guys are going to be bothered cause i am not linking it, tough shit) on du are suggesting 15 ok sex partner, promoting it, making asses of themselves on threads sexualizing the 15 yr old girl, being crude and vulgar thinking themselves cool, justifying it by sayin these girls are not girls, but valid sexual partners, and they cant help sexualizing them?

look at any thread with a highschool teacher and student. the other day was a thread on cheerleaders giving a car wash, 1, 14, 15 and men 40 and over saying worthless with out a picture and watched her bend down, all the way down washing a wheel... yada yada yada. sexualizing these kids.... kids..... on du. not one person said hey dudes, that isnt cool. not one.

all of this is promoting an attitude of acceptance with our youth, sexualizing our girls for our old men to play with, mainstreaming a behavior and attitude that i think is a real issue.

15? well hell, not much difference between 15 and say 13, 14. 13, well there was that 12 yr old stripper in dallas that many men paid for and never reported. she looked older anyway. and the men on du validating the people that used the strip bar not being able to tell a 12 yr old for christ sake. of course they know she is a kid. and that whole room watching a 12 yr old strip was not pedophiles.

12? well hell, ....

i agree with all the rest of your post

appreciate it

and thank you

[EOTE]

154. So your argument is shot down handily once again, and you throw out another strawman.

You say all the time that men on DU say that pubescent girls are fair game yet you've NEVER provided anything approaching proof of such. So your stupid, sexist argument is thoroughly destroyed and that's all you have to fall back on. Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

[seabeyond]

158. it is called discussing eote. a concept way beyond your ability. nt

[EOTE]

161. You claim that discussion is beyond my ability?

While you throw out countless disgusting accusations against half of the DU population on a regular basis, and then when someone dares to call you out on it by requesting a link, you then accuse them of playing a "fuckin game". Yep, that makes perfect sense. Just the kind of logic I'd expect from you. You have a complete inability to discuss with facts, so you simply ignore them when it doesn't fit your narrative. I'd honestly suggest seeking help.

[lumberjack_jeff]

189. If males are inherently predisposed to rape 7 year olds...

... then why does the patriarchal society consider the large punishment appropriate, and how does *any* girl reach adolescence without being a rape victim?

Further, please help me reconcile your world-view with a belief that sexism is bad?

Those who did this deserve the punishment they'll get. Those who simply share the same plumbing as the perpetrators do not.

[seabeyond]

190. no where did i say males are inherently predisposed to rape 7 yr old, makes your questions moot. nt

[Scout]

40. 'cuz of course if there were no buyers, she'd have still sold the child.

it was MALES who bought both the 15 year old and the 7 year old.

seems like you've got not only an axe to grind, but a chip on your shoulder as well.

[comrade snarky]

42. Yes, it was males who committed a terrible crime

One that does not invalidate the crime of the 15 year old girl.

Do you think this crime is an indictment of "our male population"? Playing it as such is disgusting.

[Scout]

50. men who rape are the problem of other men....

because obviously they haven't given a good god damn when women have tried to eliminate the problem.

instead of women being punished for the crimes and bad behavior of those men, it's about time the other men grew some ovaries and did something about it.

[comrade snarky]

52. What?

Seriously... what?

No men care about rape? I'm not following you here.

[Scout]

76. the problem of men who rape is not a problem women can solve...

it is up to MEN to solve it.

[comrade snarky]

78. Huh, and I thought we were all in this together

Well some of us aren't I guess.

[Scout]

81. what fucking bullshit you spew

women and women's groups have just been sitting on their hands, not doing a damn thing trying to get men to stop raping for decades. no take back the night marches, no shelters, no awareness of date rape. nope, women aren't in this.

men who rape OBVIOUSLY don't give a good god damn what women think about rape, now do they? they haven't listened to women all this time, what makes you think they'll start now?

MEN who rape are the problem of other MEN. Put on your big boy pants and deal with it. Maybe if other men started giving them shit, beating the crap out of them, i don't know ... aren't you tired of all men getting a bad rap because of the actions of a few? but it's easier to just say women are man-haters, or they asked for it, or "we're all in this together" and do nothing.

[snooper2]

85. maybe you need some education

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/



http://www.mavaw.org/



http://www.nomas.org/
The National Organization for Men Against Sexism is an activist organization of men and women supporting positive changes for men.

http://www.menstoppingviolence.org/index.php



http://stopviolence.com/domviol/menagainst.htm

Men Working to End Battering, Rape & Sexism

[Scout]

88. is comrade snarky in any of those groups? how dare he imply that women aren't

"in this together" with him.

i never said there are not any men who care about rape, so i don't know what your point is supposed to be.

[snooper2]

90. No...you said this-

"men who rape are the problem of other men....
because obviously they haven't given a good god damn when women have tried to eliminate the problem.

instead of women being punished for the crimes and bad behavior of those men, it's about time the other men grew some ovaries and did something about it."

[Scout]

91. yes, i said the men who rape ... haven't given a good god damn

THE MEN WHO RAPE don't give a good god damn ...

i did not say no men give a good god damn...

learn to read for comprehension

[snooper2]

97. "it's about time the other men grew some ovaries and did something about it"

"it's about time the other men grew some ovaries and did something about it"

"it's about time the other men grew some ovaries and did something about it"

"it's about time the other men grew some ovaries and did something about it"

"it's about time the other men grew some ovaries and did something about it"

"it's about time the other men grew some ovaries and did something about it"

"it's about time the other men grew some ovaries and did something about it"

[Scout]

128. :rofl: despite your links, the vast, vast majority of men do NOTHING

to prevent other men from raping.

"despite your links, the vast, vast majority of men do NOTHING to prevent other men from raping."

"despite your links, the vast, vast majority of men do NOTHING to prevent other men from raping."

"despite your links, the vast, vast majority of men do NOTHING to prevent other men from raping."

"despite your links, the vast, vast majority of men do NOTHING to prevent other men from raping."

"despite your links, the vast, vast majority of men do NOTHING to prevent other men from raping."

"despite your links, the vast, vast majority of men do NOTHING to prevent other men from raping."

"despite your links, the vast, vast majority of men do NOTHING to prevent other men from raping."

"despite your links, the vast, vast majority of men do NOTHING to prevent other men from raping."

"despite your links, the vast, vast majority of men do NOTHING to prevent other men from raping."

copy and paste is fun!

[Raksha]

135. Thank you for posting these links.

It's a sad commentary on our culture(s) that groups like this are even needed. But as long as they obviously are needed, I'm very glad they exist. This is the first I've heard of them...thanks again for the heads-up.

[comrade snarky]

96. You and your buddy up there sure do read what you want to see

No matter what's been written.

It's impossible to have a coherent conversation with you. Insults, and bile just flow. I never said women aren't working to prevent rape but then that wouldn't help you spew your point. It's a creepy, stunted little world you live in where "men" = "men who rape".

So I'll leave you to it. Believe DU is filled with nasty rape apologists and no men care if you like. Nothing I can do about it.

[Scout]

120. you are the only one claiming that "men"="men who rape"

no one else has said that.

[Gwendolyn]

125. Yeah you implied it. After all, there is that study which says that HUGE amounts of men will rape...

if they can get away with it. Utter bullshit that one is, but whatever. When you have an agenda it's best to plow on full steam ahead.

[Scout]

129. oh, first i said it, but now i only implied it.

the study has been posted on DU several times....

if they knew they could get away with it, the majority would rape.

what's my agenda sweet cheeks? what's yours?

[Gwendolyn]

143. Yes, it's reached mythical proportions, that silly study, hasn't it?

And no, you haven't implied it. You've said it. And now you're saying it again.

Must suck to live in your world where the majority of men would rape. Does that include your father by the way? How about the other men in your family? From what you've said, apparently you work with a pack of rapists too. I pity you.

And I'm not your "sweet cheeks.' I love how pseudo feminists take to insulting other women with the most hilarious of patriarchal condescension as soon as they have nothing substantial to say. That's where the "pseudo' part comes in. :rofl:

[Scout]

176. answer the question Gwendolyn, o most feminist of all feminists....

please deign to give this lowly pseudo feminist your answer.

[NashVegas]

102. Hint. 7 Men Don't Stand in a Room and Rape a 7 YO to Impress WOMEN

They do it to impress OTHER MEN.

[comrade snarky]

106. That's not a hint, that's a revelation of your own issues.

Yes, men are impressed by watching other men rape a child. Do I need the sarcasm tag?

Can you read what you're saying? That's horrible. I hope, for your own sake you don't actually believe that.

[seabeyond]

114. here again showing your desire to protect rather than reality. most men will acknowledge

much of what they do in group of men, especially in degrading women, is for the show of their fellow males.

another subject most men are open to that we have had on du

and then there are those men that must protect, that they cannot be honest with themselves

this is what female posters are addressing you men, who would never rape, on your particpation in this whole issue with your gender

[comrade snarky]

132. I am not the duly elected spokesman for all men

And you speak for no one but yourself. "Female posters" on DU are quite capable of speaking for themselves. Damn few seem to be chiming in for some reason.

As for the rest of this post it makes very little sense. Proofreading is your friend. From what I can make out, somehow being male I am responsible for those who rape? My participation in the gender I was born with implicate me somehow in these crimes? No. Not buying it. The male subculture is not monolithic even if you want it to be.

Also, after your insults you think were going to have a meeting of the minds? Sit together calmly and reach consensus when you cant admit so simple a thing as inflating the number of men involved in raping the little girl "from up to 7" to "a dozen"?

No, I don't think you are an honest player in this conversation. I wouldn't say you hate men, I know you don't believe you do and I don't think it's that simple. However, I do believe your issues (whatever they may be) do prevent you from discussing any gender related issues in an honest manner. Questioning is an attack and the worst possible motivations are ascribed to anyone who dares have the temerity to disagree with you.

Therefore it's pointless to engage with you. There is nothing to be gained from it except to point out to lurkers that you are not being honest.


:edited for grammar

[seabeyond]

150. you expect the christians to speak out to the christians, repugs to speak out to the repugs but

by gosh.... dontcha be expecting a male to challenge another male

that. is. crap

and exactly what the women are saying to you on this thread

at this point, a little reflecting is in order

or once again, bury the head, ignore what is said, dismiss.... and by all means deny deny deny

[comrade snarky]

153. Oh, you must be referring

To all those time I spoke out in favor of rape. Or maybe the times we were together in the real world when I didn't speak up when all my buddies were talking approvingly about rape.

You know, the ones you've made up. Cause they totally had to have happened right? I'm male after all. :sarcasm:

Since I've spoken so approvingly of the rapists in this case on this very thread. :sarcasm:


Why is it always those who display the least ability at introspection are the ones who call on others to reflect? Let us ponder the difference between "up to 7" and a "dozen" and why some are incapable of admitting a simple mistake that bolsters their ideology.


:edited for clarity

[seabeyond]

159. what your post does show is a total disregard to what is being said to you

so you can type out an extreme, non true post snarky. no, that is not what i am saying. nor the other women.

if you would actually listen to what is being said, then there is a chance you can understand

otherwise, as i say, at all cost protect your ego.

this post is an example of that

[comrade snarky]

164. Oh no, I hear what you are saying quite clearly

The problem is you don't like my answers and so have to insult me and tell yourself I'm somehow defending rapists or can't see the problems in society.

Complete bullshit of course but whatever.

[akbacchus_BC]

191. Comrade Snarky, some of us women are not commenting as me for one

is intrigued about the conversation going on here. Generalizing any group of people is a slippery slope and I won't condone anyone saying all men are pigs!

Sad as this situation is, I still hold the men accountable. The 15 year old is gullible and what she did to her sister of 7 years old is disgusting! Sort of reminds me that in some parts of the world, men with Aids feel it will go away if they molested a baby or a young girl! That thinking is so effing screwed up, it is unbelievable. From time immemorial, some men are sadists and even soldiers who hated a country and were at war with that same country, saw it fit to rape the women.

Rape is a global problem and I for one is trying my best to help out. Check out this site: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/fight_rape_trade/?vl

Regards

[comrade snarky]

197. Where have I said the men aren't accountable?

Can you show, anywhere is this whole thread where I minimized the crime of the men or blamed the damned 15 year old for what the men did?

It hasn't happened. I've called the men rapists, scum, rat bags and if I remember correctly sub-human monster rapists all through this thread. I've called for the permanent jailing of every single one of them for this abhorrent crime. I have never denied or tried to reduce their guilt though I have been nonsensically accused of it.

I have said the 15 year old should be charged and punished if this article is correct and I stand by that. No person who sells their 7 year old little sister to be raped should be allowed out with the rest of us. She's dangerous. Hell, if it will help that little girl feel safer I don't care what happens to her. Stick her in a room under the jail. The only reason I wouldn't want her executed right along with the rapists is because I refuse to participate in the death penalty. Maybe she was abused herself. I think it quite likely she was, possibly by some of the very people involved. I don't know, but like I said yesterday nothing could excuse this. Nothing.

That's not gullible, it's as close as you get to true evil.


Buy the way, thanks for not going down the "men are pigs" slope. It gets so old.

[akbacchus_BC]

200. Oh man, you are on a high, you must not have read my response!

No need for u to respond!

[comrade snarky]

202. Sorry, I may be a bit oversensitive

I did read your response though.

This case reminds me less of the virgin rape "cures" in places like South Africa than it does of Imperial Rome where child slaves were bought and sold into sexual service. Sometimes by their own parents or guardians.

There's no shortage of horrors in the world.

[Chan790]

147. How?

What precisely is it that you think we can collectively do that you cannot?

[EOTE]

156. Because we need to be forming posses and putting rapists heads on pitchforks.

You can't call yourself a man if you believe in our legal system, we have to go back to the days of the wild, wild west and lynch men at the first accusation of rape. It's obvious that these things can't be done according to the law.

[lumberjack_jeff]

188. Direct the hate where it belongs, and no further.

Collective blame sucks.

[Gwendolyn]

51. No it isn't an indictment of our male population at all. It's an indictment of rathole...

crime-infested gutter neighborhoods where people are raised to be, and act like animals. Pure and simple. This particular apt building appears to be the apex of all that is wrong with these places, and looks like the 15-year-old pimp has lots of experience in that area herself. Sad, but there you have it. And there's another sad, revolting story that comes out of these areas every single day. I'm not really sure if these 7 or so guys are really pedophiles. When people live like that they basically just like to inflict pain and suffering in any way they can... so who knows.

[comrade snarky]

53. I think you may be close to the mark

My guess, and it just a guess, would be that this 15 year old girl probably had reason to know that these men would want to molest a little girl.

If so that is a tragedy.

[Gwendolyn]

55. I'm sure more details are to follow. But you know, you're assuming that these were all "men."

What I'm getting is that some of them were boys. And I'd bet money that a whole lotta drugs were involved too.

[comrade snarky]

60. True, I was doing that

After all that back and forth I was ignoring an aspect of the story. Almost funny if it was a different news story.

The possibility of drugs, while likely, I don't give much weight to as far as causation. Inhibition can be lessened but this is so extreme... Blaming drugs would be a cop out if they try it.

This story is just so sketchie right now. I think I'm guessing at motives to try and make it more understandable.

[Gwendolyn]

63. I'm not making excuses for it either. Just that drugs, as you say, lesson inhibition...

and might make a sociopath even less likely to acknowledge the pain they're causing.

But you know, you could be quite right... the 15-year-old obviously has severe issues and was hanging around the complex before they went in, so maybe she spread the word that there was a young girl to be had. The party was a break-in basically, so it's not unlikely that after news spread people into that kind of thing might've just started to gather there. Either way... disgusting beyond the pale.

[comrade snarky]

71. I wasn't trying to imply that you were excusing them

Sorry if it came across that way.

I just meant that a normal person cannot get so high that molesting a 7 year old begins to seem like an OK thing to do. The few drugs that do take a person that far out are far more likely to end with them peeling off their own skin.

[seabeyond]

57. and when we have our group of 7, 8, 9, boys at 13, 14 yrs old getting a 12 yr old girl to give them

blow jobs as she is on her knees from boy to boy to boy in a upper middle class home, is it this crime infested gutter neighborhood acting like animals causing the problem, gwen?

[EOTE]

108. That question is so foolish, I don't believe it deserves an answer. NT

[Gwendolyn]

116. I can't see it, but imagine it's the dumbest blathering anyone will read this week.

:)

[EOTE]

118. Oh, I'm not so sure about that.

This particular poster DOES have herself to compete with, after all.

[WhiteTara]

70. it's an indictment of the patriarchal system

the 7000 year experiment in men being the dominate force on the planet is a dismal failure.

[EOTE]

107. But... but... what are the chances that 7 awful men got together in the same location!?!?

I mean, the odds of that are astronomical. Bad people never gather together in the same place, they're always randomly dispersed throughout the population. /sarcasm

I do, however, think that these men/boys are actually pedophiles, though. I can't imagine a non-pedophile would do something like that, no matter how twisted they are in other ways. I could be wrong, though.

[Gwendolyn]

121. The details are so sketchy it's hard to fathom what went through the minds of these animals.

But thinking about it, it's really possible that the 15-year-old sociopath planned to do her sister harm and arranged what happened - word of mouth travels fast. It may even have been planned days before. I guess I'm just cynical and believe people are capable of anything, even eating their own children, so it wouldn't surprise me either if these animals just got caught up in the moment.

[Hello_Kitty]

112. Teh poor widdle menz were helpless in the face of a 7 year old being offered up to them.

She forced them, really.

:eyes:

[NashVegas]

119. That Naughty Temptress

And her naughty pimpstress sister ...

[Hello_Kitty]

124. Seriously.

The 15 year old girl was responsible for the behavior of every male in that apartment.

Amazing how quickly a thread about child rape turns into the usual pile of self indulgent "OMGZ WHAT ABOUT THE FEE FEES OF TEH MENZ?!?" whinging.

[Gwendolyn]

136. That is absolute bullshit and you know it.

No one is making excuses for the low rent swine who raped that girl and you can't find a single post that says that. People are pointing out how reprehensible it is for a girl who is old enough to reason to pimp out her sister. The fact that she's being charged with multiple crimes seems to bear that fact out.

It's beyond anything imaginable for a child to be raped. Now imagine it's you being violated in the worst way and looking up to see the face of your sister, mother, father or brother laughing down at you while gleefully waving the money at you. Maybe you're amazing and different, but I know that if it was me, the scars of being raped by strangers might fade after some years, but being so betrayed by a family member who supposedly loves you would kill me.

[Hello_Kitty]

138. Yep. Let's ignore the rapists and focus on the 15 year old girl.

Great to see you showing up to defend male privilege again.

[Gwendolyn]

145. Not a single person is "ignoring the rapist." Again with the bullshit.

People are capable of multitasking outrage and despising the acts of both pimp and buyers. Even the news article managed to do that.

It's your little group of victim feminists that doesn't want to see any responsibility placed on this girl at all. I'm not defending male privilege. i just hate your pathetic victim feminism as all it does is keep women from attaining equal status. Want to be a child who needs constant emotional coddling and bears no responsibility for your actions? Then be prepared to be treated like one, at home and in the work place.

[Hello_Kitty]

155. I'd say you're the one promoting victimhood.

The feminists I run with (as opposed to the strawfeminists you've created in your mind) want to stop rape. We feel one of the ways to do that is to challenge rape culture. One of the ways the rape culture operates is by convincing people that rape is the fault of people other than rapists. Rape is always the fault of the rapist. Always. When a woman offers up a child to be raped for money she is committing a horrible crime. I would say it's a crime equal to rape in how evil it is. She is not, however, the rapist. You may be right when you say the child might feel more betrayed by the woman who sold her because of their close relationship, but it doesn't change the fact that men chose of their free will to rape that child.

[Gwendolyn]

160. No one is denying anything you say. No one on this thread is denying anything you say.

So what's your point? As I said, people can multi-task their outrage and there's plenty to go around in this story.

From what I can see, it's easy at this point to be aghast and revile the sister because she's the only criminal with a face and a story at this point. The boys or men haven't been caught yet but when they do and their faces are plastered all over the news, there will be plenty of outrage and angry threads about it. This whole nonsense that everyone's a rapist and there are thousands of rape apologists on DU is just utter crap and really demeans any possible dialogue between men and women. And it's always the same few people that cause the rift and the strife. It's too bad.

[comrade snarky]

166. You've hit the nail on the head there

It is too bad that we cant discuss real gender issues on DU without the assumption of collective guilt and the need to somehow shame men OR women based on a stereotype.

Yes, I said men or women. Much to the disbelief of some on this thread I'm sure.

[Gwendolyn]

201. Yes, it's too bad. There are always a few with agendas, and you can bet your house...

on which threads they will reply (since they sit here night and day waiting for them) and can portent, verbatim exactly what and how they will post.

[Hello_Kitty]

168. You could try paying attention to what we have to say

Instead of instantly kneejerking outrage and erecting Strawfeminists to bash.

Take what seabeyond said in her first post in this thread:

so, there just happened to be a dozen pedophiles all in one spot, or our male population is having a real tough time with a blury line of what is sexually appropriate?

You could choose to interpret it as an attack on all men, because seabeyond didn't carefully couch her words to avoid offending anyone, and go off on a tirade about "male bashing" and "broad brushes" and whatnot. OR, you could read the statement and realize that seabeyond isn't accusing every man of rape but does want to talk about what may be happening in the culture to make a group of men think it was okay to rape a child. There are absolutely reasonable arguments to be had over that, but this whole "OMG U HATE MEN!!" kneejerk reaction that is so common here doesn't demonstrate a willingness on the part of a lot of people to have those difficult discussions.

[NashVegas]

211. When I Think of All Those Times

I had a chat window open when I was gaming online, and one of my male buddies would make a hit on another player and boast, "I just made ____m my BIATCH!" I know, the first thought that always came to mind was, "wow, we really need to work on female self-esteem, here."

[seabeyond]

212. ya.

not that i am not for what is suggested to do to help our girls. i think we absolutely must address our girls too. and there is a responsibility for them too.

but

ya

[Scout]

178. she's a REAL feminist Kitty! n/t

[comrade snarky]

152. Who, seriously, who on this thread has said or implied anything like that?

No one.

I've been arguing that this set of 7 rat bags are not a good statistical sampling of all men.

Nowhere, NOWHERE on this thread has anything like that been said, but then you know that don't you? These lashing attacks are both uncalled for and unnecessary.

[Hello_Kitty]

165. This reply comes pretty darn close

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8061429#8067227

I mean, he does think the rapists should face a firing squad but other than that pretty much says that they were helpless to resist the prospect of a 7 year old to rape.

[EOTE]

173. Wow, way to miss the point.

No one is coming close to saying that these men were helpless to resist raping the 7 year old. What that poster is saying is that of course those 7 men WOULD, they were already raping the 15 year old, the 15 year old should have had a fairly good idea they would have raped the 7 year old as well. The poster goes on to say that they should all be shot. No one has come close to justifying what any of those sick fucks have done. But if that's what you need to believe to fit in with your distorted world view, go ahead and keep believing it.

[comrade snarky]

174. Do we see the same post?

That person is saying the men involved were already scumbags who wanted to fuck a 15 year old. Kind of a self selecting group of scum child fuckers. I expect that bunch would be more likely to touch a younger child too. I don't know the time line yet, it's quite possible a few scum called their scum friends to run on over.


That's hardly "Teh poor widdle menz were helpless in the face of a 7 year old being offered up to them" and certainly less inflammatory.


And for the record, because god knows I don't need this thrown back at me, I don't think the 15 year old was worse than the rapists. In another (earlier) post on this thread I state my opinion that she's almost as bad if, IF the article is accurate.

[Darth_Kitten]

86. It's okay, you know, to think that raping a 7 year old girl is bad?

Geez........

[comrade snarky]

99. What the hell? I do... As pointed out

In many places in this thread. Good lord, question one person on their rhetoric and all of a sudden I'm in favor of rape?

That's sick.

[EOTE]

105. Let me provide a parable for you.

Perhaps this will allow you to see how disgusting your comments are. Probably not, but it's worth a try.

Someone on DU posts an article about how 8 young, black men were all involved in a drive-by shooting of several individuals. This is a horrific act and everyone on DU is shocked and appalled. You reply to the article and state:

"but black peeple on DU say that this is fine and dandy. they asy that drive-bys are part of black cutlure and aceptabel. i meen 8 murderers all in one spot? or our black population is having a real tough time with a blurry line of when it is appropriate to murder"

So, another poster sees this offensive mess of a post and calls you out on the disgusting, racist nature of it.

"Wow, that's really offensive. That's the type of stuff you'd see on Fox news."

You reply:

"yur ignoring the issyoo at hand! and that is that black people on DU think that drive-bys are perfectly acceptabel! i see it all the time."

The poster, a bit incredulous, doesn't actually believe that black people on DU think that drive-bys are acceptable:

"I've got to call you out on that, I've been on DU a long time and I've never seen anyone, white or black, condone drive-bys."

You reply:

"im not gunna play your fuckin' game! if you cared about victims of drive-by violence, you'd believe as i do!"

Yeah, that would go over REALLY well. I don't expect you to reply to this, but maybe think about it a bit.

[NashVegas]

133. Can You Give Some Examples

Of when such a thread or post every happened?

'cause for what Seabeyond is saying, we've seen the apologia and the minimizing on everything from news articles about the scared 13 year old kid that Roman Polanski raped, to the more recent discussion of "scooping" which some DUers seem to think is jest boys' bein' boys.

[EOTE]

139. I'm not suggesting such a post 'every' happened. It was a parable.

I'm showing that such a post would be every bit as offensive. With regard to showing examples, I amongst many others in this thread have begged for examples of DUers claiming that barely pubescent girls are "fair game" as seabeyond screams in every thread like this. She never provides it, of course. But that doesn't stop her from saying the most disgusting things, not about one or a few particular males, but about males in general.

[NashVegas]

142. So In Other Words, You're Pulling Shit Out of Your Ass

And trying to use that as a counter argument against actual and real posts that have seen the light of day on DU.

ps - typo flames are almost as weak as pulling shit out of your ass.

[EOTE]

146. Real posts that no one every provides any evidence of.

If you're so sure that these posts exist, surely you should be able to provide a link to someone on DU saying that if a girl is pubescent, she's fair game, right? That is, of course, unless you're talking out of your ass. Which I'm sure you are.

[EOTE]

148. So who's pulling shit out of her ass?

That's right, it would be you. I'm sorry, but it's really not my fault you have no idea what a parable is.

[joeybee12]

3. What the phuck can you say about something like this? Seriously

I can't find the words for something this sick and twisted.

[seabeyond]

5. what one can question instead of relegating it to mere "evil", "twisted", "sick" is as a gender

ask, why there are up to a dozen men boys that dont get fucking a 7 yr old is wrong, or help that 7 yr old.

a dozen men and boys arent all evil or sick or twisted. but living in a culture that is conditioning behavior like this

[Scout]

11. easier to just dismiss a couple individuals as sick, rather to acknowledge that

the whole culture's attitude towards women and girls is sick.

then "we" aren't responsible...

:grr:

[seabeyond]

16. point. it is time we at the very least, acknowledge a societal problem instead

of dismissing as a few....

[BreweryYardRat]

26. Our culture's attitude toward women and girls has problems, yeah.

But over the years, I've known a LOT of misogynists. I can't think of ANY who would have done something like this.

[Scout]

41. so? n/t

[Regret My New Name]

175. It's not condoned at all.

These sick fuckers will be put in prison, and I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being punished even more from their fellow inmates.

[BeyondGeography]

4. Evil

[Liberal_in_LA]

6. DUPE! Hipchick posted it here!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8059985&mesg_id=8059985

[Bryn]

10. She posted just a link so I didn't click on it

OP here posted more info. for clarification. I happen to be one of those who dislikes having to click to find out what it's about.

on edit: I didn't realize that you're that OP here. lol :hi: so thanks

[Webster Green]

7. I feel ill.

:wtf:

[virgogal]

8. God almighty!

[paulsby]

9. animals

this, sadly, does not surprise me.

it is sickening

[comrade snarky]

13. Disgusting. Bring the hammer down

I'm not always in favor of charging teenagers as an adult but in this girl's case, go for it.

Those men should never see the sun again without long vertical shadows.

[WhiteTara]

14. arrest all those males who raped the child

and the teenage girl as well. Even paid, it was statutory rape.

[comrade snarky]

21. The little girl was 7 years old

This is much worse than statutory rape.

[WhiteTara]

37. the teen aged girl is 15

and that is statutory rape. The little girl is a tragic victim and I hope that she gets the help she will need for the next several years. I hope those men go to prison for a long time.

[comrade snarky]

45. The 15 year girl old sold her little sister's body

That's almost as horrible a crime as any other in this incident.

I agree with you about the little girl though, she's going to need help. I hope CPC can get it for her.

[WhiteTara]

68. somehow I don't think the 15 year old knew

what would happen. They aren't very smart at that age. But if it was a purposeful, sociopathic thing, then the big sister should go to jail too.

[Echo In Light]

104. Wrong. She told the seven yr old to let the boys do whatever they want

[WhiteTara]

179. that turned my stomach

I feel sick. The 15 year old should be sent to jail as well.

[comrade snarky]

62. I see what you are saying now

Sorry about that. I misread what you meant.

I agree, the men who had sex with the older girl should face charges as well.

[Matariki]

15. I would guess that the 15 year old has some serious past traumas of her own

just a guess.

[comrade snarky]

19. Wouldn't be a bit surprised if she did

Some of the "men" who raped that little girl may as well.

It could explain but it will never excuse.

[tango-tee]

205. Trying to make my way through this thread,

There is absolutely no excuse for the men/boys, as they are the true perpetrators of this crime. You have a valid point, and there are "wrongs" all the way around. With the exception of the little girl who has become the victim, all involved are to blame. I wonder:

- Who, other than a person who is a pathetic piece of garbage, will violate a seven year old child?
- Which 15 year old girl, other than someone who is deeply troubled will sell herself for sex to men/boys at a party?
- And which 15 year old girl, other than someone with serious deficiencies, will pimp her little sister?

But then, here's another thought: What about the family? I can't help but think about which teenage girl from a healthy family would offer her body for money? Have so little respect for herself? And sell her sister in the process? Is this something she might have witnessed in the environment (not necessarily family, but neighborhood, etc.) she has grown up in? There are so many unanswered questions. And I truly believe that looking for answers will force us to face our many deep-seated societal ills, such as those in power vs. the powerless, men vs. women, haves vs. have-nots, those who have hope for a better tomorrow vs. those who have given up.

This particularly heartbreaking, infuriating case is a manifestation of the many ills in our society.

[proteus_lives]

34. Doesn't matter.

Any cosideration for her ended the moment she sold her sister into sexual slavery/rape.

[proteus_lives]

33. +1000

The girl and the men deserve to spend the rest of their lives in prison.

[lpbk2713]

18. Jesus Fuggen Keerist

Some times I just want to :puke:


I hope the police find all that are involved and I hope they all get max sentences.


People disgust the hell out of me some times.


Damn.

[Alenne]

23. Out of 7 men and boys not one thought this was wrong

What is going on in this country?

[seabeyond]

29. are you a fox news commentator? seems to be the jest if a women dares to question why

a number of men/boys raped or allowed rape of a 7 yr old girl.

dont you dare question what is going on in this country

[comrade snarky]

31. If you have something to say to me

At least have the guts to say it to my face.

This sniping later in the thread is pitiful.

[seabeyond]

35. say it to your face. is this real life? are we meeting up at high noon? bah hahahah

and dude, i have not been shy in addressing you on your post. again a totally wussy strawman attack. IF i want to bring your ridiculousness to another poster on this thread, i can. you should be proud of your words. you attack me for questioning what the hell is the problem with a dozen men/boys raping a 7 yr old. this poster asked the same. AT LEAST my post is relevent to the posters words per your posts

[comrade snarky]

39. You still dont understand what I said, do you?

That is just sad.

Well, keep up your passive aggressive work. I'm sure it makes you happy.

[seabeyond]

46. again, i understand. i disagree. you still dont see the issue, and for me, that is sad

and for all women and girls that are dependent on men understanding so they can help us out

[Alenne]

36. I must be

because I believe it is a valid question.

[seabeyond]

48. i thought so too. but cause i asked, i am the "sad" one. i am sad that a dozen men/boys

would rape a 7 yr old girl

[Maru Kitteh]

67. Yeah. I must be too. I guess we're not supposed to ask why so many men

would rape a 7 year old little girl.

Let's get really crazy and ask this: Why would so many men rape? Period? Let alone a 7 year old?

See that? Now I"m probably *worse* than Fox.

[REP]

75. One possibility in THIS scenario:

The men/boys attending knew the 15 year old was 15, and attended because of her age; in other words, self-selected.

Why some men are like this - short answer: they're fucked up in a way that can't be fixed.

[boppers]

95. Why both men, and women (her sister, no less) would exploit a seven year old?

If you're going full-on "Fox", make sure to point as many hypothetical fingers as possible, painting with as broad of a brush as you can find.

[Raksha]

113. That's what is so appalling, and it's terrifying what it says about this country.

The cheapening of human life and dignity to the point of nonexistence. How could 7 men and boys NOT see a 7-year-old girl as human? And the same thing goes for the older stepsister. Even if she has issues herself, which she obviously does. Even if the men and boys have issues themselves, which they obviously do. They are all worse than animals. After all, animals don't rape--let alone gang-rape!

NOT ONE thought it was wrong or tried to stop it. How have we come to this?

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shedevil69taz]

66. hopefully

They find every person involved in this, and don't skimp on the application of punishment. People that do this sort of thing automatically forfeit their rights IMO.

[Rhythm]

84. Not all men are bad... but these dozen (and the step sister) are monsters.

ANYONE who would sexually assault another human being, let alone a 7 year old child, is beyond vile.

No punishment is too severe for these irredeemable monsters.

[Xenotime]

109. Where did the 15 year old learn to do such horrific acts as selling her 7 year old sister?

[Raksha]

122. The 15-year-old was probably raped herself starting at 7 years old,

and probably by a close family member. But even that doesn't excuse it.

[CTyankee]

167. Not excusable but perhaps inevitable if all she knew was rape herself?

We have no idea what kind of world she lives in. If she grew up in an amoral atmosphere where was she supposed to learn morality (as we know it)?

[smirkymonkey]

208. Also, the 15 year old is a child herself - nobody seems to mention

that fact. What she did was reprehensible, but she is also a child and therefore I do not see her as culpable as I would see an adult who would do such a thing. The girl needs help, she's still a minor.

[seabeyond]

209. the article says men and boys. this is a point we arent talking about

and agree on. whether it is the 15 yr old girl, or a 15 yr old boy, they (i feel) were both conditioned thru experience for the behavior. i dont write either off. i dont think we can with our youth. one of the disappointing things on this thread is the black and white all or nothing, jail... string them up.... evil.... mentality. there is so much more in this

the boys in the group are following the men.

at a point in our society, we have to draw the line (i think) on when one takes responsibility and the events of youth doesnt get to color our decision and choices we make. ergo, then punishment is had. but depending on the boys age, i think they are set up just as the girl is by society, by environment.

that is why i initially started a post.... they cannot all be pedophiles. we have to look beyond creating them as mere evil and take it beyond to why.

[Raksha]

223. I can't disagree with you there.

Re "If she grew up in an amoral atmosphere where was she supposed to learn morality (as we know it)?"

Damned if I know, but then I'm not one of those trying to assign relative blame here. Normally I detest the phrase "there's plenty of blame to go around" because of the way it's misused to get the obviously guilty off the hook. But I think it definitely applies to this situation.

[Beacool]

111. I read it in the newspaper today.

Commuting to work I encountered a co-worker and she pointed the article to me. We were both horrified. This is one of the most disgusting stories I've heard about in some time. Absolutely shameful!!!! That poor child!!! I hope that her sister and all those animals who raped her get what's coming to them. Sickening!!!

x(

[LanternWaste]

137. How often have I been told by the Usual Suspects

How often have I been told by the Usual Suspects on DU that these actions are simply not harmful to children whilst attempting to minimize consensus position by focusing on the irrelevant?

Often enough for my suspicions to raised to such a degree as to make me uncomfortable.

[Stinky The Clown]

193. Arrest the men.

Right now.

[vaberella]

221. And 15 year old. n/t

[TransitJohn]

198. So is it okay to start advocating for the state sanctioned murder of the sister as well as the

rapists, yet? We all know DU is very quick to call for murder in these cases. Does it apply to pandering a child as well as sexual assault of a child?

[Political Heretic]

203. I see a big argument sub-thread up top and I just have one question

Instead of arguing who is "more" to blame - does there really need to be a "more" in this case?

The teenager is guilty of crimes - no one is disputing that. The men at the party are also guilty of crimes, which is why the OP states that the policy are looking to make additional arrests.

The notion the one "side" or the other is blameless is pretty silly.

On a side note I will say that I'm getting pretty sick of DUers using the "victim feminism" line - something straight out of Anne Coulter's vocabulary - to incite fights. There is no contradiction between feminism - something valuable and appropriate for all of us (I am male) and personal accountability regardless of gender.

What's tragic about this case is that its less likely that the men involved will all be caught and arrested, and if arrested it is less likely that they will be punished, and if punished its less likely they those punishments will be substantial.

I say that only based on statistics, which tell me that - whether some people like hearing this or not - our society treats men and women differently. Saying so does not mean I believe there should be no consequences for the female teenager. Because of her age, I do hope those consequences are more corrective than punitively focused.

[seabeyond]

206. honestly, i am even beyond the punishments of this particular case

in my view, with how the world is progressing today, this is another story told that is a wake up call for us, a lesson to learn from, to really take a look where we are heading.

too many of these stories are coming out along with so many parallel stories that show a basic disrespect for one another.

i believe we are given opportunities in each and every one of these stories. where i am seeing the stalling of any kind of awareness is to take an individual story, keep it separate and declare the particular participants as evil or pedophile, therefore separating from the pack, for a sense of security.

i think this is a perfect example of a case where you have a group of men and boys that were caught up in the okness of doing what they want with this girl. and this is something as a culture we need to address, honestly.

[Rage Inc.]

204. The rapidly-accelerating decline of Western civilization.....

...continues apace!

[vaberella]

220. This is similar to an SVU episode that was based on a true story.

Not uncommon and utterly disgusting.