How I went from "left wing" to "far left crazy"

[walldude]

Do you see it? Slowly over the years the mindset has been slowly turning. Shifting to the right. In small increments. Small enough so unless you step back and look at the big picture you won't see it. The line between right and left has been constantly pushed further to the right so now to be on the left is more conservative than ever.

Can you imagine in the 1940's having a national conversation on whether or not we should torture captured Nazi's in case they had "cell's that were plotting something"?

In the 1940's ALL AMERICANS were against torture. No discussion no debate. Today the right has ACCEPTED IT and let if flourish, they loves them some torture. So the position on the left, has moved to debating whether or not it's ok. The far left crazies want to see torturers in prison cells.

Can you imagine someone on the left in the 1970's standing up for Nuclear Power?

In the 70's the right loved them some nuclear power, the left hated it. Today the right loves them some Nuclear Power, the left, thinks it's better than coal. The far left crazy's think there are other fucking options.

Can you imagine in the 2000's anyone on the left supporting the HCR bill as it stands? The right loves them some corporate giveaways. The left would have been through the roof. I mean it, can you imagine if during all the other shit the Bush administration was doing, they tried to pass off this crap as HCR? As it is now the left position has moved to we got something done and now we can fix it. The far left crazies still think the bill sucks, but for the opposite reason the far right crazies do.

Now, can you imagine if right after the Bush Administration passed this crappy HCR bill they started to DRILL BABY DRILL! UP IN FUCKING ARMS! That is where DU would be, up in fucking arms. I'm not even going to repeat the positions I'm seeing from the left today, it's just sad. Of course the far left crazies are just wondering what the fuck happened.

So that's it, that's how I went from being left wing to being a left wing nutcase. I stood still and watched as the line kept moving further away. You know if you keep moving the line eventually I will look loony enough to head straight for Bellview.

[Oregone]

1. "Now, can you imagine if right after the Bush Administration passed this crappy HCR bill they ..."

Sigh.

Sometimes I just tend to think whatever policy comes about would have regardless.

The front men are just temporary contract marketers, selling private industry's policies to their base in their own unique way. Whoever wins the election clearly has the preferred marketing mechanism for the times.

Sometimes, Id love to be proven wrong.

Well, I guess the US did get college loan reform.

[dflprincess]

154. Whoever wins the election seems to depend on what efforts to screw

the working & middle classes are up next. Illegal wars and curtailing the Constitution take a Republican - but if the idea is to "reform" trade (ala NAFTA), healthcare, education, or social welfare programs (including Social Security & Medicare) - then the Democrats need to be in charge.

I became a "far left loon" without ever changing my beliefs.

[Prism]

2. Not even over the years. More like 13 months.

Since the inauguration, I've gone from left-of-center to left-liberal purist.

All because I'm not overly fond of Republican policies.

Funny little world.

[yurbud]

18. and the funny thing is, it's the Democratic Party leadership that has classified us as loonies

You expect the GOP to call anyone left of Ann Coulter a commie, but you would think the Democrats would at least have some residual respect for the FDR & LBJ wing of the party (Obama is channeling the war-monger LBJ without the Great Society and Civil Rights LBJ).

[tavalon]

128. I believe the actual term used for us is fucking retards

Rahm was the only one to say it out loud but I don't think he's the only one. The DLC did this.

[theFrankFactor]

136. Proud to Join the Nutcase Left! Believe me, DU reminds me what a nut I am... plenty.

[Plucketeer]

166. Heh - I took an independent survey that was supposed to reveal

where I stood with my beliefs. I thought I knew, but I was surprized to find myself in the company of Ghandi! I've been pummeling Rham and Obam with my opinions, but I try not to think of them heading for the circular file.

Where the HELL is the clean, greern energy assault????? All I read about is visionary proposal stuff and foreign firms setting up factories in the USA to build existing technologies.

[YOY]

3. Tsk..tsk...tsk. Such an extremist.

:sarcasm:

[eleny]

4. Amen

I'm still shaking my head over NAFTA. Can you imagine that being passed back in the day to allow manufacturing jobs fly from our shores? Not hardly. But by the time Clinton came along people were blinded by Reagan's sunny optimism.

[groovedaddy]

111. Reagan's crushing of the Air Traffic Controllers Union was the signal to move ahead with

corporate globalization. U.S. labor was deemed sufficiently docile enough to accept anything this side of slavery.

[saracat]

5. Yeah its just amazing how some will now justify the very positions they campaigned against.

I really wonder how much more I can take. Real Democrats are slammed everyday for refusing to accept anti-choice verbiage, defending teachers and the unions and now the environment. We are told we are haters and bigots for fighting for basic civil rights for LGBT citizens. We are repeatedly vilified for criticizing the Administration too much. Sorry but praise has to be earned and when actions being taken go deeply against the grain of what the Democratic Party is supposed to represent and we are told to choke it down because someone somewhere calls it "politically expedient" to sell us downriver , I have a real problem with that.When did the "Party of Yes" become the "party of yes to everything the GOP wants because we don't want to make them angry in case maybe someday they might vote with us on something we might actually want?" ?

[Riverman]

160. Get Ready for "Clean Coal" plants appearing soon in YOUR neighborhood,

espcially if you are already red, brown or black! What the hell YOU need the jobs, even if they kill you!

[Edweird]

6. The best part is being called a 'teabagger' for opposing far right policies.

That's good for a laugh.

[Ignis]

15. Isn't it? I never thought I'd see the old "far left = far right" crap here.

I thought most people discarded that facile fallacy after their first course in US History. Shows what I know.

[LWolf]

39. +1

[dotymed]

115. This post

Hits the nail on the head. I wonder how long it will be before we have a "document correction" department and they have to spend their time (our children's? money) going back to these "barbaric mistakes" in our writing and thought processes? They will work tirelessly "correcting these mistakes", so that their generation and the future will know only one shiny truth. I hope there IS a Winston or two available to notice. 1984 came a little later than foretold. It was still prescient, it was written in the 1930's. Did many people have this fear that the future would be totalitarian? I would enjoy reading some of their thoughts, unedited of course.







edited twice for spelling....

[kenfrequed]

157. Oh gods

Tell me about it. Why the hell did Rahm and company start employing the term left wing again? Talk about using the enemies language but I guess that is how he got his 'tough' reputation; not by defeating the political opposition, but by destroying dissent within his own party.

[Lorien]

7. I'm right there with you Walldude

and an old friend just left my home a few minutes ago saying pretty much just what you did in your OP. We're far from being alone, even though the MSM wants us to think that we're the "fringe".

[Recursion]

8. In fairness, we've been wrong about nuclear for a while

The knee-jerk anti-nuclear power position we've had for the past few decades has been a dead albatross, and I'm glad to see some of the left shaking it off.

[Spike89]

13. Also, it was once the favorite of the left (50's)

Some things change. Nuclear was a progressive favorite and conservatives fought it in the late 40s and 50s and even into the early 60s. The reality is always going to be a schizm between the more pragmatic and the dogmatic elements even when they agree completely on the end goal.

[ShortnFiery]

44. Whoa! That's not at all how I read this in my history books or experienced it in the 60s.

It's always been the "blow em up" bat shit crazy RIGHT-WING that has supported nuclear energy as well as weapons.

No, this is re-writing history, us on THE LEFT have ben anti-NUKES since their inception.

[dotymed]

116. AMEN

[Spike89]

148. No, there was no such clear anti-nuke movement in the 40s and 50s

Whether you remember it or not, the post-war period was an incredibly optimistic time and a Democratic president created a commission to study the peaceful uses of nuclear power. The big debate was over how much money was going into weapon research as opposed to peaceful uses. There were also debates over how much of the "peaceful" technology could and should be shared with allies in Europe mostly. The predominant meme at that time was that nuclear power could produce electricy "too cheap to meter" and that this "near-free" energy could almost end world poverty and hunger.

It wasn't until the late 50s when the first real nuclear power plants were coming online and information was becoming clear to the public about the real dangers. Even though liberal support quickly began to drain away, the U.S. under Kennedy and LBJ became the leader in active nuclear power plants in operation by 1969.

[walldude]

20. Then you won't mind storing the waste in your yard.

Thanks.

As a far left lunatic, I think there are better options to invest in.

[LWolf]

40. +1,000

[pundaint]

57. Not if you wont mind storing one of the alternatives on yours, coal, chemicals used in the

manufacture of photovoltaic cells, or a windmill.

[walldude]

66. I'll take the windmill no problem. Solar panels as well. And a big ass

battery to store all the power. You can have the toxic waste.

[pundaint]

79. So chemical toxic waste is cool then?

[pattmarty]

102. There is NO comparison to nuclear waste or worse an ACCIDENT.............

...........What a lot seem to forget is that no matter what we have there will be some type of bad to go along with the good. You can't do something, anything without some kind of reaction. What the big deal is to find different energy sources that produce as little "bad" by product than that of coal, oil and nuclear. We will even in a perfect world still have minimal "dirty" energy.

[pundaint]

106. In fact, there is: Bhopal, Texas City

[pattmarty]

110. So what's your fucking point?

[Javaman]

125. Crickets

I love when the pull out toxic waste chem plants as their only canard to try and defeat wind and solar.

It's as if the only waste from the nuclear energy sector is only nuclear waste. These pro nuke nuts know absolutely nothing in regards to the construction of a nuke plant. Do they honestly believe that the plants assemble themselves? What powers the construction equipment? What powers the plants that manufacture the materials that go into building a nuke plant? That the chemically treated sealed floors aren't made from products that are also highly toxic?

They love to make all these really ridiculous accusations regarding wind and solar regarding waste. All things create waste of one kind or another, but (and this is a gigantic but), those same plants that manufacture wind and solar are highly regulated by the EPA, just like the nuke industry, however, the waste from solar and wind can be recycled or they are disposed of according to EPA rule which means they have to have zero effect on the environment, while the nuke industry is still trying to figure out what exactly they have to do with nuke waste. So far their best solution is to BURY IT. Good lord. A few others spout of the old tired solution of, "we should recycle the nuke waste like the do in Europe!!!" Well, hell, if it was such a great idea and would save the nuke corps money, don't you think they would have done it here already?

It's really exhausting, isn't it?

[pattmarty]

140. As I said up post, ANY form of energy is going to have even a minor...........

............downside. But in the case with nuclear there is a massive downside. I believe we (meaning the world) will end up having a combination of different energy forms, oil, coal, nuclear, wind, solar, water etc. The key is to make it so there is never one or two LARGE polluters. Nothing is this world is perfect.

[RaleighNCDUer]

134. Are Bophal or Texas City uninhabitable for the next 20 generations?

Sure, thousands died at Bophal but people were back in there the NEXT DAY, cleaning up, fixing the problems.

Ever hear of Chernobyl?

No comparison.

Actually, much of the left DID support nuclear energy as a clean energy source in the 50s and 60s, before we came to understand just how intractable the waste and accident problems could be. Right now, thousands of square miles of the Ukraine's prime farm land has been put out of operation for generations, because of Chernobyl. Land that could feed hundreds of thousands rendered useless by ONE accident.

And there is still no answer on what to do with tons of accumulating nuclear waste. There is NO safe place, even in the deepest abandoned salt mine, even in deep granite tunnels in the Rockies, where there is not a chance of contamination of the ground water, just as we are moving into an era of depleted water resources.

Nuclear is NOT a viable option. Not now, and not in the foreseeable future.

[liberalmike27]

142. Nuclear

Feels like, and is a step backwards.

I just don't think Obama is going to pick up as many votes from independents, as he is going to lose by an uninspired base. It's something Republicans know--don't fuck with your base--apparently democrats are unaware, or like I always say, are stuck between the old philosophy, and corporate money.

What was it Golum said, My precious...(money)...come here my precious.

[LiberalLovinLug]

176. That is a huge mistake IMO

Fucking with your base.

BushCo. knew this and in spite of his empty hubris and lying ineptitude, he got enough votes to either win, or at least come close enough for Diebold and voter purges to put him over the top....for two long miserable terms.

Independent voters, and all for that matter, like a candidate who looks like he has principles and is loyal to those principles and to the people that share those with him, no matter how twisted or solid those principles are.

There is a clip of Obama, back when he was running for the senate, when he stated in a speech he was for SINGLE PAYER health insurance. He could have stuck to those principles by using his great oratory skills to explain the benefits but instead he "amended" his principles to supporting a public option in conjunction with private insurance.

Then he once again amended his principles by agreeing that a public option was not important. If 70% of the public wanted a public option then he no doubt back stabbed ALL of his base on that one.

Independents and first time voters, seem to just want someone who follows his long held beliefs, no matter how right or left the media portrays them. And shitting on their base is a sign of a phoney. So not only do you lose that base, and all those volunteers and donations that go with it, you lose that independent voter because no matter how bipartisan friendly and centrist you THINK you seem to be perceived, you are instead seen as two-faced and weak on loyalty to people or principles that got you there.

[teknomanzer]

58. Okay, I respect your opinion on nuclear power...

But you need to take into consideration that any method we use for energy production will have some kind of environmental impact. Windfarms and solar farms will have an enviromental impact there is no side stepping it.

[dotymed]

118. JOHNNY APPLESEED

Bot that's a baaad apple and it will spoil the whole bunch baby..............

[Javaman]

127. ?

of course all things produce waste, one would have to be totally ignorant of how things, (anything for that matter) not to believe that.

All energy production and development and the waste they generate have to follow rules laid down by the EPA.

The wind and solar industry are heavily regulated and have to account for all waste and its proper disposal. The waste generated from wind and solar have to have zero effect on the environment, so therefore it's heavily processed to make that happen. As a result that drives up the cost of wind and solar power.

While the nuke industries best solution so far is to bury nuke waste in the ground. Which has been know to contaminate ground water.

[teknomanzer]

180. Ever hear of James Lovelock?

He's the guy who came up with Gaia theory. He now supports the use of Nuclear Energy. He also has a dim view of "green" technology. He pretty much believes it is a scam. He also has a pretty grim view of where we stand with climate change. At this point he believes the process may be irreversable and doubts there is anything human beings can do to stop it. We simply do not know enough to come up with any kind of plan. In that vein he believes we should concentrate on preparing for the inevitable - using resources we currently have available to create new infrastructure in preparation for mass migration of peoples to new regions.

Now if this came from some crackpot I would dismiss it, but this is a guy who has been repected by environmentalists the world over.

Here is a link to the latest news bit from The Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/apr/01/james-lovelock-climate-change-pessimism

[bananas]

182. Lovelock ALWAYS supported nuclear energy, and he predicts a 1-2C change we can live with

Lovelock has gotten a lot of things wrong,
and he's wrong about nuclear energy.
He also predicts only a 1-2C change we can live with: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=236251&mesg_id=236281
He was wrong about CFC's and many other things: http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=James_Lovelock

[MadHound]

25. Wrong how?

The two biggest problems with nuclear power, what to do with the waste and preventing human error, haven't been solved and won't be anytime in the near future. Until we solve those problems, nuclear should remain a dead albatross.

[ShortnFiery]

43. Some, but I'd venture, NOT many. Plus, there's still hope that we can reach them through education.

Phase out dirty, unsustainable energy

http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/campaigns/global-warming-and-energy/energyrevolution

The U.S. needs to phase out coal and nuclear power. We cannot continue to build coal plants at a time when global warming poses a dire threat to ecosystems and people, and we cannot continue to ignore the risks of nuclear energy. The next decade is the right time to make substantial structural changes in the electricity sector, as many dirty energy plants in the U.S. are nearing retirement. Within the next 10 years, the U.S. will decide whether to meet energy demand with fossil and nuclear fuels, or with the efficient use of renewable energy. The Energy evolution U.S. Scenario advocates a new political framework that enables the creation of renewable energy and cogeneration power plants as well as dramatic increases in energy efficiency across all sectors of the economy, from electricity generation to construction and transport.

[pattmarty]

100. Don't fucking include me in "we've". It blows and is still dangerous in many.........

........different ways. There is no fucking way I would want the nuclear industry to be "in charge" of our energy policies. If we had STRONG regulations like the European countries then "maybe". Call me "far left" and fucking damn proud of it!



Edit: to put in "include".

[lib2DaBone]

103. True that. Nuclear Technology has come a long way in 40 years..

Nuke plants are now smaller, pressurized and do not require large amounts of water to be cooled.

It's sad that we have arrived at peak oil.. and NOTHING has been done to plan for future energy.

We will continue to bow down to big oil until every last drop is gone nad they have extractred every last penny from our pockets.

[Riverman]

165. Nuclear Physics have not changed in the last 40 yrs, or ever!

The most important isotope of plutonium is plutonium-239, with a half-life of 24100 years. That is how long it takes that isotope to emit its radioactive energy. Who votes to have it buried in your neighborhood, yard or local mountain range? Yucca Mtn?

We fought this battle in the 70's and ultimately the reason no new nuclear plants have been built in the US since was not due to the enormous envirnmental and health impacts, but the costs of keeping the plants from blowing up and finding a place that anybody would risk having the waste buried anywhere close to them. Financing thus dried up!

Now, wait for it ...taxpayers will be made to pay for the costs of absorbing that risk. As Obama said the other day in his budget message that he was so pleased to put some of our money into nuclear industry subsidies. WTF - must we fight this battle, again, too! No doubt we do, and will with all the other battles to be fought!

My, my how we try to rationalize the irrational!

[bananas]

178. Wrong on all counts - the technology hasn't changed much, new plants are larger, and still require

large amounts of cooling water.

The new reactors use the same LWR technology as the old ones, the only real difference is that in theory they will be less likely to melt down.

To try to reduce the cost per KWh, they are using economy of scale by making the plants larger.

They can add a larger cooling tower and air-cool the cooling water and re-use it, but that adds a lot of cost; it's nothing new, they did that with some older plants. The new plants are based on the same basic technology as the old plants and require the same amount of cooling water - they require a more cooling water than coal plants which require a lot more than natural gas plants.

[fascisthunter]

130. no thanks... no we here

[bc3000]

143. Is nuclear cost effective now?

Putting aside the issue of nuclear waste, I was under the impression that the only way nuclear power plants can operate is through massive government handouts. Is this not the case anymore? Are nuclear power plants now able to generate electricity profitably without subsidies? That would be news to me.

[bananas]

177. Nope - and the cost estimates keep going up every year.

Even with federal loan guarantees, they couldn't find any investors,
so taxpayers will be loaning the money directly: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x231521
This is such a boondoggle.

[Riverman]

161. OK lets dump the "hot rods" in your neighborhood!

[kimmerspixelated]

9. Great post!

In agreement!

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barbiegeek]

11. I'm sure insurance companies were planning how to make $$

off of every health care scenario possible.

[CrispyQ]

16. Except for single payer.

Of course, single payer was taken off the table before talks even began. :eyes: The only scenarios left in place were those that the insurance industry could rig.

[bvar22]

12. This Old FDR/Wellstone "Democrat" is right there with you.

"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans."---Paul Wellstone


If the values of FDR are no longer welcome in today's "Centrist" Democratic Party, then neither am I.

"We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens."--FDR

[walldude]

26. Man, he could have wrote that yesterday...

Timeless truth. Thanks.

[Dinger]

105. Wellstone, *Sigh*

God, I miss him.

[femrap]

126. TPTB

couldn't have a person like him speaking the Truth from the Senate.

I miss him, too. Very much.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

113. thanks for this

it's a quantum leap from where the pukes have taken us over decades.......
I wish change could happen in quantum leaps.

[tnlefty]

14. Back in my earlier years I would've been considered a rather

moderate Democrat...I haven't changed, I just refused to drift rightward, and now some like to hurl fringe my way.

[laughingliberal]

17. Absolutely! I keep saying my positions are the same as they were 1980

when I was considered a pretty mainstream Democrat. How did I become a 'fringe lefty' without moving?

[walldude]

19. Lived through Reagan, Bush and Bush II

only to come out the other side labeled as a hater for believing it's not the people doing it but what they are doing.

[laughingliberal]

23. I feel you. nt

[XOKCowboy]

50. I remember us being the token lefties at work...

Funny how it turns out we were right about Bush and Iraq but you'd never get the Robs or Tom to admit it.

[nickinSTL]

21. completely agree

people talk about the Repub party collapsing...

I don't see the Dems doing any better - or maybe doing better at taking the right-centrist position on everything in order to try to ensure that our country becomes a ONE-party system, with Repubs, Greens, Libertarians, and anyone else locked out.

With the crap coming from Obama, I'm seriously considering whether there is still a place for me as a Democrat, or whether it's time to jump ship for a party that still stands for something...even if they will never win a major election.

[pattmarty]

104. Green Party.

[nickinSTL]

179. yep.

I'm thinking some Greens will get some votes from me this year.

Some Dems will, too - but I won't be voting all Dem as in previous years.

[femrap]

129. Maybe we should just call ourselves

the 'Unreconstructed/Unreconstituted Democrats' and kick Rahm's ass.

Or do we go to the root of the problem and spend all of our energies on kicking Corporate America? Maybe target 5 Corporate assholes such as the one from Big Pharma, Big Bank (Goldboy Sucks), Biggest Outsourcer of our jobs, Big Insurer (AIG), and Big Food.

After all, the political minions are only doing as they are told. Obviously they aren't capable of fighting Big Corp...we need to.

My 2 cents.

[mmonk]

22. LOL. I went from normal to leftist or extreme liberal without moving as well.

People that don't change their views are like that I guess. I guess that is why I'm not called a "New Democrat".

[krabigirl]

24. I see it shifting more and more to an authoritarian, corporatist state..even more than now..

[EFerrari]

27. Maybe they'll give us group rates.

:)

[walldude]

28. At least I'll be in good company...

:toast:

[Nikki Stone1]

29. From a fellow "nut case"

I hear you.

:patriot:

[walldude]

30. I knew you'd be in here.. We're gonna need a good sized ward

just for DU loonies. :crazy:

[Bluebear]

31. Proud to stand with my crazy brother walldude. nt

[walldude]

67. Knew you'd be in here too.. All the usual suspects... hehe

Frankly I'm surprised there isn't more dissent. Only 1 Deleted..

Not to mention I check back on it and I'm on the home page :)

[Individualist]

32. K&R

[Odin2005]

33. There is no real Left in the US any more.

France's Conservatives are father left then the Dems now days.

[leftstreet]

35. +1

[ThoughtCriminal]

34. I did that standing still

and watching the train rush to right into the a wreck of epic proportions.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

36. I've voiced the same thing many times here at DU. Thanks for this.

[unkachuck]

37. yes sir, walldude....you've nailed it!....n/t

[inna]

38. I totally hear you, and I'm with you.

kr (+46)

[LWolf]

41. The "left" is anti-union, anti-labor these days.

:(

And I'm no longer in left field; I'm a couple of miles from the stadium parking lot.

Yet I haven't moved.

[EFerrari]

42. That's not the left, LWolf. That's the other right wing

as Gore Vidal says.

[LWolf]

109. Yes. But that's what the U.S. is CALLING "the left" these days.

:grr:

[EFerrari]

147. Yup. We're not being marginalized. It's more of a disappearance.

lol

[L0oniX]

46. ¿

:wtf:

[L0oniX]

45. The Dem party never moves left. It always moves right. That's why we need the extreme left...

to keep the party at the very least in the center ...which is a sorry fucking thing IMO.

Become an internationalist and learn to respect all life. Make war on machines. And in particular the sterile machines of corporate death and the robots that guard them. -Abbie Hoffman

[EFerrari]

47. Or we could buy the leadership a case of corrective orthopedic Oxfords

or of compasses or get them tattoos for their left hand. Plaza Sesamo has a whole lesson on left/right.

[L0oniX]

52. OMG ...that looks like my sister.

[PhoenixAbove]

48. I never thought I'd ever consider

myself part of the "Loony Left" but I'm right here with you Walldude. :crazy:

[donheld]

49. k & R

[bvar22]

51. K&R for the "fucking retarded" wing of the Democratic Party.

Moving steadily to The Right is leaving a BIG Fucking Vacuum on The Left.
Vacuums WILL be filled.
Its Physics....AND Politics.

"When given the choice between a Republican, and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, the voters will choose the Republican every time." ---Harry Truman

QED Massachusetts

I love this quote from a Republican president:

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
---Republican President Dwight Eisenhower

:cry:

[L0oniX]

53. Adding that one to my list. Here's another...

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism–how passionately I hate them! – Albert Einstein

[Moostache]

167. Eisenhower would be shouted down as a Nazi sympathizer today!

Seriously, his quote is further left than ANYTHING that we have had in the last 35 YEARS....including the Obama administration to date!

The last time the Democrats had anything remotely close to those sentiments was with LBJ and civil rights legislation and that was 50 years ago! In my lifetime (1971 - 2010), we have had 5 Republican presidents (4 of which conducted criminal acts in office to many degrees - Bush 1 and 2, Reagan and Nixon...you can make a plausible case that Ford's pardon for Nixon should count as well and give them a 1.000 batting average!), 2 Democrats that act like / legislate like "moderate"-Republicans (Slick Willy and Barrack) and 1 Democrat that acted and talked like it (Carter) and promptly got stomped in his re-election bid.

The other thing that I HATE about our current culture is that Presidents - even Obama - no longer speak in terms like FDR or even Eisenhower's speeches. Everything is dumbed down to about the 9th grade level. Obama gives a hell of a speech, but the structure, syntax and language are never too far beyond the average high school student. Erudition has become a political liability and the results speak for themselves. We are in hell folks. Whether or not we can ever get out at all is seriously in question at this point. We need MORE far left "loons" to challenge the status quo and force the agenda back the other way.

On a more hopeful note, in the pendulum of politics, the right wingers had their own similar stay in the wilderness for 35 years (from FDR in '32 through LBJ in '64 up to the election of Nixon in '68). And I am sure that the early years of Nixon's first term were not all that the right had in mind when they came back to power - he did not end FDR's New Deal or repeal LBJ's "Great Society" programs at all...it was not until Bush II that those programs and progress were truly gutted and left for dead. Even after all of that time, and all the efforts to kill it all, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are still in place today.

We need to seize this time in power to repair and solidify the past programs AND implement NEW programs to get us closer to fulfilling FDR's second bill of rights. Obama is being held to an impossibly high standard and facing additional defections from the left is not going to get us any closer to the promised land. Maybe it is time to start viewing Obama as a quasi-equivalent Nixon instead of expecting a second FDR...

[Jakes Progress]

54. I did it by staying the same.

Whence the Democratic party of my youth when I campaigned for Barbara Jordan?

I'm still too gullible I think. I'm down to wondering if our president is just a corporate dog or is really, really dense. Other options seem to be dying quicker than a republican will lick a rich man.

[defendandprotect]

55. This "drill" decision really resonated today . . . someone mentioned it to me --

how shocked he was -- and from A LIBERAL PRESIDENT!!!

Not happy!

[Stinky The Clown]

56. You have company, my loony friend

KnR

[Aaria]

59. Don't you friken know that Nukcular power is carbon free.......

right after the first 20 years to make up for the carbon spent making the concrete and steel. Duh.

[Art_from_Ark]

74. Don't forget all the carbon spent

bringing all that stuff to the site.

[Art_from_Ark]

76. And after all that, this is what you get

[pundaint]

78. Do you mean hot air, as depicted in your scary photo?

[Art_from_Ark]

81. You really think that's all it is-- hot air?

Here's a little news for you-- hot air is transparent.

[pundaint]

86. Clouds

[pundaint]

85. Your argument is as strong your spelling. Which alternatives require neither concrete nor steel?

[pundaint]

60. Keep voting for evils, lesser or greater, and all you get is more evils. Stop voting

for people who do not represent your interests. If it takes two or four years for a slate of democratic Democrats to emerge, it's still a lot quicker, and therefore less damaging, than letting these faux Dems control the Party. Or we could strike.

[MellowDem]

61. Horrible examples...

How do you know that in the 1940s ALL AMERICANS were against torture? What the hell makes you think that? Considering how many were OK with segregation, internment camps for Japanese, etc. etc., I have a REAL HARD TIME believing that you didn't just pull that straight out of thin air. As it is, Americans during World War 2 did commit war crimes, though it was never ever highlighted, even today, because of some bullshit propaganda about the "greatest generation" that can do no wrong.

And France, that crazy far-right country, gets the vast majority of their electricity from nuclear power. I really don't think that nuclear power is that partisan of an issue. It is one alternative source of power with its own positives and negatives.

[walldude]

65. Well you may be right that a tiny minority of people in the 40's supported

torture, but the fact remains that in this day and age it's accepted and welcomed. It certainly was not back then. We did sign the Geneva conventions, it was not ACCEPTED and WELCOMED. So yeah I may have exaggerated slightly to make a point.

And I have no idea what France has to do with the fact that there are better and wiser investments for our money then on more nuclear plants.

But thanks for playing :)

[MellowDem]

68. Look, you were saying that...

the right has moved farther right over the years, correct? But those examples you gave don't make any sense. Nuclear power isn't necessarily something conservative's love and isn't really a partisan issue, so it doesn't make much sense to use it as proof that the right has moved farther right. I just used France as an example because it is a very liberal country relatively and it loves nuclear power.

As for the torture thing, I wouldn't be surprised if MORE people supported torture back in the 40s than less, what with being faced with a much more real and tangible threat and considering the other rather drastic measures they approved of to keep "safe". Of course, it is all speculation since I don't think they polled it back then.

[walldude]

70. Actually I was saying the left moved farther right...

So no you are not correct. If you notice in the examples I gave with the exception of torture, the rights positions have not changed, it's the left that has moved right because the right refuses to move anywhere but up their own asses.

[MellowDem]

171. There is no real "position"

on nuclear power, and the left seems to be for it in many ways. Other liberal countries are as well, so I can't say that liberals have become more conservative with that.

As for torture, it's hard to prove anything since there are no polls from back then, but I personally suspect it would be more popular back then as a method to keep Americans safe and save lives, even among Democrats. Remember, we bombed whole cities, knowing we'd kill thousands, so I really doubt that torture didn't happen at all or would not have been approved of by many Americans in certain situations.

[Enthusiast]

90. I grew up in the 1950s and 60s.

This was what made us, the U.S., better than the Imperial Japanese and Nazi Germany-we weren't cruel and we didn't torture.

For the most part we kept to the guidelines of the Geneva Convention, our enemies did not. This is what made them our enemies.

Torture is the single greatest crime one can commit against another human being. GOOD Americans are against torture, every single good American. The others are just plain misinformed or misunderstand torture.

[MellowDem]

170. I agree with you on torture...

but I do believe the US did torture during WW2. Not widespread or anything, but there is no doubt to me that it happened, and if you had been able to poll Americans back then, with the whole "terrorist" kind of line of reasoning that people use nowadays, I think more people back then would be for it than today. Remember, many people of that time were perfectly OK with segregation and taking away the freedom of Japanese Americans just because they were Japanese Americans, and the fear and ignorance back then was worse in many ways.

[murdoch]

183. Yes, Americans did not accept torture then

I have watched television in the past few years, and watch Alan Dershowitz and supreme court justice Scalia and the rest of them calmly explain why the US should be torturing people.

I think it is beyond Nazism really. I can't imagine Nazi propaganda talking about why their soldiers should be torturing people. At least the Nazis didn't think the German people had become so debased that they would accept such things.

The the liberals are on television talking about how the US needs to torture is a real indication of where our country is.

[Enthusiast]

91. Your post is a good

illustration of how right wing the country has moved.

There was no national discussion of American torture in the 1940s. It was understood that torture was something our fascist enemies did. If you don't know this you need a lesson in fundamental 20th century history.

I can't believe there is someone on DU arguing that torture might be acceptable.

[MellowDem]

173. There was no talk of civilian deaths in the 1940s...

or segregation, or the internment camps, etc. etc. either. Of course there was no national discussion on torture, the propaganda back then didn't allow for it. If you seriously think a country that killed hundereds of thousands of innocent civilians through mass bombings wouldn't torture in certain circumstances, it just comes across as naive. I doubt the torture was widespread, but for intelligence purposes, I wouldn't be surprised if it was used. And I know that when it came to prisoners of war, we did treat our captives much better in general, but of course we also killed a lot of surrendering soldiers as well. I'm not naive enough to pretend that America did no wrong in the "good war".

Nowhere did I argue that torture is acceptable, I just said it was probably more acceptable in the 40s to Americans than today.

[RaleighNCDUer]

158. In the '40s it was accepted that torture was against all American values -

and it was not open for debate. Torture existed - particularly in our prison and jails - but nobody made excuses for it. Whenever it was exposed it was soundly condemned.

BTW, how and where does France dispose of its nuclear waste?

[MellowDem]

175. Last I heard, they were shipping it to Germany...

I'm not arguing for or against nuclear power, I'm just stating that France loves it.

In the 40's, little was open to debate. People just kept stuff under wraps. I have no doubt that the majority of Americans back then would have been for torture in certain circumstances, no doubt.

[progressoid]

62. Oh shit. I accidentally unrec'd. Sorry w-dude.

I've been feeling what you're feeling for a long time. :thumbsup:

[eridani]

63. In the 60s, my contemporaries thought of me as a wussy "moderate"

I haven't changed either, but public discourse sure the hell has.

[Art_from_Ark]

75. In the '60s, I was a "Kennedy-Johnson Democrat"

without realizing it. I still consider myself one. But it seems that that arm of the Democratic Party is being fed to the jackals.

[obxhead]

64. you stood still.....

ok, now I'll read the actual body of the post.

edit

yup, we stood still. Left moved so far right that "for the people" has become a bat shit crazy left wing idea.

If the Bush admin (or the McCain admin) had proposed any of the recent big ticket ideas like we are seeing today there would be widespread outrage here as well as real million+ people marches on DC against this shit.

The magic man Obama does it and we see pom poms and celebration.

W..T..F..

[bertman]

69. REC!!! Perfect. Thanks, walldude. I've always thought of myself as a radical, but now

I'm calling myself a democratic socialist. You are exactly right about how the goalposts are moving.

[newtothegame]

71. This logic doesn't really work...

Can you imagine our forefathers having conversations about whether a growing baby was a person, and whether they should be allowed to kill it? Probably not. But that doesn't mean we should outlaw abortion today...

[walldude]

83. Actually no I can't seeing as medicine was still in the LEECH stages

In the 1700's. And what your post has to do with my OP I can't even fathom.

[whoopingcrone]

96. No, I can't...

They didn't need to.
It was taken for granted that the only "people" were adult anglo caucasian males.
All others could be slaughtered without a word or a qualm.

[Bonobo]

72. I blame Clinton(s) for that. nt

[travelingtypist]

73. To put another spin on it,

I'd much rather be far-left crazy, which I am, than be okay with torture and other war crimes as long as I'm protecting my own team.

It's sick.

[Oak2004]

77. What's amusing to me is that I became a far left crazy

even as I myself became more conservative.

It's a surreal world where moving to the right makes you a "far left crazy".

[Raine]

80. On point and it's very sad for us that

are now "far left crazy", as a columnist put it I'm now "politically homeless". :argh: :-(

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. For me, it's the Dems tagging along like puppy dogs after the Republicanites

When the Republicanites say "heel," they roll over and whimper.

That infuriates me and has since 1981.

So, yes, the Dems have moved righward, but I've also moved leftward in my conviction that the Reagan Revolution needs to be UNDONE and REVERSED.

[EFerrari]

87. I thought that when it was ongoing.

But how "radical" is it, seriously, to want to roll back the fraud that was the Reagan RipOff Revolution?

How radical does a person have to be to be against torture, genocide, union busting, gutting the few social safety nets we had for the poor or for the mentally ill? When did it become radical to object to a president that engaged in illegal weapons sales and drug trafficking, McCarthyism and who handed our free press over to corporations? Isn't all of that just obviously antithetical to democracy?

When the hell did DEMOCRACY become a radical idea?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

112. Ever since the yuppies took over the Democratic Party

They like personal freedom, but they're fine with keeping "us peasants" in our place economically. A lot of them are distinguishable from Libertarians ONLY by their devotion to foreign military adventures.

[voc]

84. real.

[provis99]

88. I blame the DLC.

They are conspiring against liberals and America in collusion with the Republicans.

[Enthusiast]

89. The "left" as you put it

are not the left. There is no left representation, or very little.

[grahamhgreen]

108. ... have been left behind....

[Enthusiast]

92. Just how mired in fascism does

the country have to become before we draw a line in the sand? We have moved far enough rightward for me.

[Demeter]

93. Well then, I'm Far Left Crazy

and always have been. Glad we cleared up that confusion.

[democrank]

94. Thanks for posting this, walldude.

What astounds me is watching Democrats cheer the same positions they booed under George Bush.

Eventually, "the left" will have to go somewhere else or start supporting torture and endless wars and start opposing unions and homeless shelters.

[barbtries]

95. and i'll be right there with you.

i'm past giving a crap about whether i'm out of step though. i'm as true as i can be to what i believe.

[WilliamPitt]

97. Do you have a link

to that "Now you're angry?" thing that wound up on Rosie O'Donnell's website? I can't find your original.

[pattmarty]

98. Sign me up, I am definitely a "left wing crazy". My claim is...............

...............that I am "just to the right of Karl Marx".

[Echo In Light]

99. Solid post. I became politically aware as a teen in Reagan/Bush's corrupt 80s

... so I know exactly what you're driving at ;)

Overall I'd say the corporate culture, which is essentially RW in its aim$ and value$, has played an enormous role in shifting the collective/public mind rightward...and as it happened incrementally, it was easy for many of the afflicted to, of course, deny that such a shift was occurring.

[MadHound]

101. I'm right there on the far left crazy with you.

As they say, I haven't left the part, the party left me.

[grahamhgreen]

107. Why do you hate America and Obama?

:sarcasm:

[Douglas Carpenter]

114. I think it has a lot to do with the increased power of capital

"When I was a boy" even most Republicans - even those who were defined as conservative -at least agreed in principle with the idea that those who genuinely cannot help themselves should be provided some assistance at public expense. It is hard to imagine now, but the actual legislation for the school lunch program and the food stamp program were largely written with the help of Bob Dole and George McGovern working together to produce the legislation. Medicare, Medicaid and the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Act passed with the backing of mainstream Republicans.

Following the removal of the dollar from the Brentwood agreement in 1971, American economy and much of the world economy shifted from being production oriented and labor intensive to speculative oriented. Enormous amounts of fast money was being made hand over fist; first on currency speculation, then land speculation and then speculating on the stock market, commodities and everything and any anything - including the whole new world of derivatives which largely changed the stock market into one huge casino. Although there were a number of vast fortunes made by many lucky individuals - the over all effect on society lead to a very raw and ruthless form of capitalism and less sense of community.

Sometime in the 1970's with this new economy taking shape, this consensus of at least some sense of community responsibility fell apart and was largely replaced with a worldview that proclaimed market capitalism alone will solve all of societies ills. Although the Republicans embraced most enthusiastically this philosophy, this new form of capitalism and the belief that the wealth created by the "free market" would correct societies ills - the Democrats went along with this worldview as well - offering only weak resistance to the power of almost unrestricted and speculative oriented capitalism. After all many, probably most Democratic politicians and professional operatives were also people who benefited in financial terms from this developing new economy in which making money was the one absolute moral principle.

To a large degree, I believe political ideology that puts complete faith in "market based solutions" and "economic initiative" are largely a cynical justification, given that the purity of the free market is quickly discarded when it conflicts with opportunities for more fast money. Still largely this sophistry followed an economic process that was already well under way. The claims of this ideology simply dominate both political parties - albeit to a more extreme level in the GOP. On domestic economic matters, Richard Nixon would be denounced as a socialist by current Republican Party standards. The so-called "moderate Democrats" are simply filling the political space once held by the Nixon/Ford Republicans - although on economic matters, the so-called "moderate Democrats" are probably slightly to the right of Nixon/Ford Republicans - while what is now considered a "moderate Republican" would have simply been beyond the pale in earlier times. Barry Goldwater was considered an extremist by most Americans in 1964 - "In your gut you know he's a nut" - yet old Sen. Goldwater by the time he left this earth, found himself completely alienated from the modern Republican party that he helped create - He was simply too liberal.

Sure there has been significant moves toward social-liberalism since then - on issues like gay rights, womens rights, pro-choice and other issues that are not directly economic or foreign policy related matters.

But when it comes to economics - any major move or campaign within the Democratic Party for major and sweeping public initiatives that would mean real change in the New Deal or Great Society sense - the Democratic Party pretty much abandoned that by the late 1970's. Even 26 years ago, by the time Walter Mondale, who had a background as a strong liberal New Dealer, became the Democratic nominee, if one actually took a look at his specific proposals and the specific proposals of the Democratic platform by that time - the Democratic Party and even most old liberals had already essentially abandoned the New Deal and Great Society tradition of public initiatives and sweeping reform in favor of highly watered down public initiative mixed with private, "market incentive" approaches.

Both parties, at least when it comes to basic economics, can pretty much now say, "we are all Reaganites now" - and have been able to say so at least since that dark, dark night in November of 1980.

By some strange "coincidence" the wealth gap and social-economic stratification of American society has also highly increased since then.

[varelse]

117. I was wondering what happened to us former left-leaning moderates

this explains everything

[Papa Boule]

119. Yep. The mainstream left simply stood still and wound up the "fringe" left

as the rest of the country slid to the right. K & R.

[disillusioned73]

120. I'm also a "far left crazy"........

AND PROUD OF IT!!!

[patrice]

121. This means that "The Center" is what used to be Right-center. We need to say this to our "elected"

representatives EVERY chance we get.

[NorthCarolina]

122. The "Right" exists more so in Government, than within the populace.

The MSM has successfully convinced many to self identify as "Conservative" to better fit into a falsely defined "Center-Right America". However, when polled on specific issues, the vast majority of Americans reflect Liberal/Progressive ideals. The myth of a center-right America should be listed among the greatest hoaxes ever played upon an unwitting population. Seek out liberal candidates in the primaries and VOTE FOR THEM. If you don't, then there will be absolutely ZERO chance that anything will ever change for the better.

[Echo In Light]

146. Well put

[Javaman]

123. The best quote I have ever read on DU went something like this...

as a kid I was right wing, as a middle ager I was a liberal, now as an old man, I'm a bomb throwing anarchist.

I'm waiting for the Obama apologists explaining away how destroying our coastlines with oil rigs is a good thing.

More and more "democrats" seem perfectly okay with bending over and taking it from the right and calling it Democratic Party Ideals.

WTF?

We are dying a death by a thousand stupids.

[femrap]

124. Agree totally....

I wonder if that damn line will ever stop moving to the right. Hell, I can barely see the line anymore I'm so far to the Left.

However, between the HCR and Drill Baby Drill was a tasty Crumb for those young folks who worked so damn hard to put the Prez in office....getting the Banksters out of the middle of the Student Loan programs. Youth is still encouraged to go into debt for a college degree that doesn't provide fulfilling employment...unless one majored in Mandarin.

TPTB must always provide a tasty little morsel of Crumb between their massive Corporate Legislation. Like the Ledbetter Legislation for women...a yummy crumb.

People say I'm a cynic...I think I'm a reality-based cynic.

[fascisthunter]

131. excellent post!!!!!!!!!

[lonestarnot]

132. Yep, they have prison camps for us.

:(

[eilen]

133. Seriously. I am considering registering Green

but if things keep going the way they are going, I'll end up a "card-carrying communist pinko" without moving a muscle.

Off shore drilling... Really?

WTF.

[uponit7771]

135. Amen on your post save nuclear power, the technology has advanced past the unsafty

[tjwash]

137. LOL

This is the country that, in the 40's, locked American citizens up in internment camps, split up whole families, and took away their houses, money, and businesses just because of where their ancestors came from. Terms like "jap," "slant-eye,""jerry," and "kraut," were not only spoken in polite conversation, but printed in newspapers and on the radio 24-7. If you don't think we didn't loved us some torture and oppression back then, well, you really need to take those "good old days" shades off, and do some serious reading up on some stuff.

The rest of your post is just adolescent-like whining about stuff. Believe me, we are all ears if you have some real, viable, workable solutions to getting us off of the middle eastern fossil fuels, but the entire United States economy is completely based on not only oil...but CHEAP oil. Otherwise, the occupation of Afghanistan, the bases in Iraq, and the plans to intimidate and keep countries like Iran and Venezuela cowed and in line will, unfortunately, continue, because the system that this country runs on has gotten a life of its own.

We need solutions right now...not bitching and moaning. I can get that shit on your average cable news channel.

[walldude]

145. Solutions on how to move the left back to the right?

Because you apparently think this post is actually about nukes and oil and HCR. It's not. It has nothing to do with the problems we are facing.If you want to debate any of the things I used as examples then start a thread on them and I'd be happy to participate. But your assessment of this post is so far off base that it looks like you didn't even read it. Do you have an opinion on whether the left has moved too far to the right or did you just come in here to call me names?

[freebrew]

138. Same here.

Used to think I was a bit conservative, but now am far left.
'Cept my positions and thoughts are still the same they were pre-raygun.

Remember JFK's thoughts about advancing the nation, not individual wealth.
That came with the '80s and just got worse as time went.
We gave higher education to the wrong people, I guess.

[bongbong]

139. The Overton Window

The phenomena you describe isn't new. It's know as the "Overton Window moving right".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

As for me, I've been a class warfare specialist since high school in the 70's :mad:

[Greyhound]

150. Exactly, we've watched it for decades.

We're seeing it right now. It's here on this thread ("liberals loved nukes in the 40's & 50's") in a hit & run outright lie that nearly hijacked the OP.

[h9socialist]

141. If this keeps up . . .

. . . pretty soon they'll classify you as "hopey, changey" -- or something un-American like that.

[Peregrine Took]

144. 'just saw "The Most Dangerous Man in America" -where are OUR brave hero's?

It makes me sick to see the crowd we have today that masquerade as Democrats. I could just puke. They aren't worthy enough to be in the same room with a man like Ellsburg.

Obama? Yikes! He gives in before the battle begins...."I give!!!! Don't hurt me."

I will never vote for him again and only wish I could pull back my '08 vote.

[RoccoR5955]

149. I became a "Radical Leftist" a long time ago.

During the Viet Nam war, when I organized my first protest against it in Jr. High School.
Now, I seem to have mellowed a bit. I lean towards being a Democratic Socialist. A couple of weeks ago I was at the Left Forum in NYC, at Pace U, and there were many other left leaning people, only I, for a change, was to the right of them.
Though I do understand that our country has drifted to the right, rather quickly, I might add, it did not happen in a vacuum. I believe it started when Reagan said that the government can do no good, and then proved it when he got into office. Surely our government can do some good, we just have to get the corporate corruption out of it. I believe that the only way to accomplish this is with a Constitutional Amendment, that would forever make corporations have fewer rights than people, because, as we all know, corporations are not people, they are pieces of paper. We also need an amendment to get rid of ALL corporate financing of any elections. All elections for any public office should be funded by the public. The devices that are used for counting these elections, shall be in the possession of the public, be it hardware or software. If it's software, the source code should be publicly posted, where anyone can examine it.
Only then, will we have a government of, for and by, WE THE PEOPLE. Now we have a government of, for and by them, the corporations.

[rudy23]

151. Dems want to operate in permanent minority mode. We're the passive aggressive marketers...

of whatever Corporate America wants to send down the pike. The Republicans are the aggressive marketers of Corporate America. It's the difference between a commercial that says, "Buy Now!" and a commercial that says, "I know you hate commercials, but BUY NOW!"

The poster above hit it on the head when they said the president is just the representative for the marketing style of the times. We have no democracy, and no real power to take it back without risking life and limb, blackmail, torture, etc. That's where we stand.

[Greyhound]

152. The Obama campaign won a "Campaign of the Year" award.

The similarities between his campaign and the stampede to war campaign are too many to be coincidence. 30% of the reich believe Hussein was behind 9/11 even though they never said so directly, so they get the results and hide behind, "It's not our fault that you misunderstood". About the same percentage of Democrats think/thought he was a liberal for exactly the same reason, they drew the conclusion/bait they were supposed to while setting up the "we never said that" switch.

Just pretending to be the "opposition" to the corporatocracy is sufficient to keep the agenda rolling while we figure out what's going on. Do you think the Republicon Party would be at all relevant today if the "Democrats" had not saved them from themselves over the last year?

[rudy23]

172. The Harlem Globetrotters couldn't play games without the Washington Generals

I think that's pretty much what our system is. It's Hannity vs. Colmes, on a macro level.

[Greyhound]

181. Bingo.

On edit; The previous post should have read "advertising campaign award"
:kick:

[amborin]

153. totally agree K &R

[change_notfinetuning]

155. Re Health Care Deform, if the Repugs really didn't want this BS, they would

have introduced this "solution" when W was president, and waited for the Democrats to shoot it down, which they surely would have done. Seems to me it's just what the Boner ordered.

It is just sad to see what Democrats stand for today, and propose as the answers to our problems. These are things they would have blasted in the past, and the not so distant past, no less. Sign me up for Bellview, too. The Bellview Party.

[abelenkpe]

156. Pendulum

is swinging back. Worry not my fellow lefty.

[Spike89]

159. Spot On!

Politically, if not popularly, we started moving to the right from the Nixon administration. Fueled somewhat by the "excesses" of the late 60s and capped by the loss of the unifying issue of the Vietnam War when it wound down in the early 70s, the right rode the pendulum for a good 30 years.

We (hopefully) are finally seeing the pendulum beginning to swing back. It isn't going to instantly put those of us on the left back in the center, but I do believe it will put us there eventually, and if we don't blow it, perhaps we can even make "FDR-style" liberalism a bit on the right side of the equation before the pendulum starts another swing.

Anyway, that is political. Actual social and populist progress tends to be less volitile and once certain gains are made, they are much more difficult for the fascist right to dismantle. As dismayed as we may be with the current environment, overall we are a more progressive nation right now than we ever were under FDR. Civil liberties are without a doubt stronger than they were in the 30s and 40s. Social programs are also much, much stronger.

Every gain we make, we pretty much keep. The conservatives have been pretty successful at slowing progress, and in some few cases they've managed over decades to move us back a few years, but the overall trend, even when the pendulum swings against us, we're winning.

[craigmatic]

162. I think we've gone as far right as possible with bush. Now obama is moving us more to the center

which is still left of where we were. Eventually true liberalism will comeback. The health care bill was just a small first step. Soon we'll be back to where we were in the 60's and 70's.

[tranche]

163. Was what they did to the Japanese not torture?

The 40s were fucked up. You're remembering it all wrong.

[mvd]

164. Frustrating, I know

The center has been moved so far to the right that I consider President Obama a step up to what we want. If a Repuke gets in, it could be a country with no return. So I try to give Obama the benefit of the doubt. Yes, I think the health law is a bit of a mess, the wars shouldn't be continued, and Geithner should go. I don't understand why the President thought Geithner would provide innovation. And if he truly wants to continue to be bipartisan, I have been saying that is the wrong road. You can't work with the Repukes. Remember the blistering speech Snowe made against health care? There IS so much to fix, though, and a good amount of conservative Democrats in Congress - so President Obama deserves a chance to make things right under his strategy.

As far as nukes go, no one wants the waste it seems. We don't have to break away completely from coal, but we definitely should be progressing on solar and wind power. Those are the future.

[dgibby]

168. Right there with you, and I never even moved a muscle. n/t

[TheKentuckian]

169. I feel ya. I went from moderate to hanging onto the fringe by my fingernails

without moving at all.

Remember when a fella like Howard Dean was a moderate Democrat and a guy like Ben Nelson was approaching the right wing of the Republicans?

[slackmaster]

174. Your World War II History-Fu is weak

About 98% of the country enthusiastically embraced the use of nuclear weapons against Japan.

It's well known that the British SIS tortured captured Nazi agents to make them talk. Nobody had a problem with that.

Can you imagine someone on the left in the 1970's standing up for Nuclear Power?

Yes, I was on the left in the '70s and I supported nuclear power.