The oil thing - I'm reading between the lines - and I think Obama made a very shrewd move..

[Hawkeye-X]

Right now, the oil companies have their refineries already at maximum capacity, and if they want to make more money and take oil off the shores, they must build new refineries, and that would cut into their profits for the next 20-30 years, and as a result - they WON'T do it. The oil companies, as a result, would be in a checkmate move and have no choice but to resign.

Would you agree?

Hawkeye-X

[ZombieHorde]

1. What do you predict will happen? You seem to have two predictions.

1. The oil companies won't build new refineries. I think I understand this, but I don't know what they will do.

2. They will have no choice but to resign. I don't understand this.

[Hawkeye-X]

4. They will have to accept the status quo and start losing money

is what I meant on #2.

[Statistical]

13. How would they lose money?

Oil is sold on open market at current spot price.

If there is no refining capacity in the United States it will be sold overseas.
There are even companies that make money simply MOVING oil. They buy oil where there is excess capacity and move it to where there is shortfalls.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Are you sure they're at full capacity?

I thought they weren't and that they were getting ready to cut production to keep prices at the pump high.

:shrug:

[Subdivisions]

30. There's no reason to cut production. It's declining all on it's own.

:hi: CaliforniaPeggy. Always enjoy seeing you around the board :D.

[DJ13]

3. Drilling is divorced from refineries

The oil goes onto the spot market, it doesnt go directly to the nearest refinery.

Refinery capacity isnt addressed in the Obama plan as far as I know.

[Go2Peace]

7. It doesn't need to go to a refinery. If there is no capacity it goes to CHINA, Free market econ 101

[Javaman]

26. So they sit on it. Just because they drill for it, nothing says that they have to pump it.

you are of the belief that these oil wells will be owned by the public. The wells will be owned by the oil corps. If there is a drop in value, they stop pumping.

We don't have nationalized energy, if we did, things in this nation would be vastly different.

But alas they aren't, so at the end of the day, the oil corps share holders will make damn sure that the oil corps continue to make money. These aren't poor slobs like us holding a few shares, these are massively rich morons and corporations that hold the huge amounts of shares and as a result wield a large amount of power. The price per share goes down, those people and corps lose huge amounts of money.

So believing that the oil corps would choose to lose money over a policy issue is a fantasy. Remember, these are the same morons that are actively campaigning against climate change.

[Go2Peace]

28. I was just stating that the reserves found do not stay in the US. They could end up benefiting China

there is no law that they have to be sold here.

[sandnsea]

5. That's why there have been no refinery permits

Whenever they complain about prices going up because they haven't built any refineries, they also fail to mention that they haven't applied for permits for any refineries either.

The same is true of drilling. It's currently way too expensive to get at that oil. By the time it would be profitable, we need to be using some kind of non-fossil fuel car.

And when was the last time we had a refinery or pipeline explosion? It seems like we had one a month during the Bush years.

[Go2Peace]

6. bullshit. Just apologist some more.

these kinds of responses are so transparent. Any fantasy to justify an action that is indefensible if you measure it by traditional Democratic values.

Obama is simply giving away to score points instead of doing the hard work of leading the nation to a better approach. He does nothing in the process other than reinforce short term thinking. He should instead be showing some vision.

Considering the times we are in he is **way*** lacking in a vision appropriate to the challenge. This is simply MEDIOCRE.

[sandnsea]

8. He said oil isn't the answer

So why would he announce a plan while saying that it isn't the answer?

[Go2Peace]

9. Do you realize you just portrayed the President is "two faced"

as if that is a defense? :rofl:

[n2doc]

25. The oil co's are busy closing refineries... n/t

[Subdivisions]

31. Why invest in new refineries knowing that oil production is in decline? n/t

[tulsakatz]

10. I think he's just doing it to try to get some republicans....

on his side....after all, that's what they said they wanted in the last election. Since republicans are constantly opposing him, no matter what he says, I think he's just trying to do something he knows they wanted, if they haven't already changed their minds.....

And even if it doesn't work, at least he can say he tried...

Personally, I don't think it will accomplish much but it's more a political decision than an environment or energy issue.

[Historic NY]

11. By the time the pumps come on-line in 2030 alternative energy might be a real thing...

Some people here think like next year they're going to strike oil if they drill overnight. A platform & infrastructure to support it takes about 5 yrs to construct. A drill bit can only go so far in a day.

[barbiegeek]

15. OBAMA opened for exploration if there is no oil out there they

Can stop Bitching about it and has removed a Repugn. Campaign.

[Statistical]

12. You are aware that crude oil can be transported anywhere in the world right?

We already export (a very small amount) of oil when crude stocks get backed up.
Other countries have more sensible energy policy and thus have spare refining capacity.

[barbiegeek]

14. YES! I TOTALLY AGREE, IT WAS KO OR RACHEAL LAST NIGHT

[barbiegeek]

16. Drilling has always been a made up Rep. Rally cry, He just called

them on it.

There is not enough oil out there. Repub. rally cry is now squished. It's a brilliant move. It would take until 2030 after all the exploration and everything it takes to make that up and running, and the Clean Energy will have been started making it mute. Now repug. will have to support the bill because of drilling or it's a great campaign ad that they are full of shit.

CHECKMATE!!!

[MadHound]

17. This is belied by the fact that oil and gas is being stored on ships, and has been for awhile now.

There is a glut of oil and gas that is making its way through the market. If this was somehow some chess move on the part of Obama it is a poor one, since that offshore oil won't be in the system for a minimum of ten years, and if there is a glut at the time it won't force the oil companies to do anything, they can just store it at sea.

[Bragi]

18. Very shrewd, yeah, right

Making a major compromise before negotiations begin is always a great idea.

Look how well it worked to bring the opponents onside on health care reform.

For sure.

[TheWatcher]

19. Yes, Yes, we know. Just more complex "Chess" that none of us have the capacity to understand.

:eyes:

[barbiegeek]

20. maybe bipartisanship is something he really believes and isn't

going to compromise on. Maybe bipartisanship isn't with the repubs but the real power brokers behind them. Maybe it will develop relationships of compromise for years ahead. Or maybe trusting our President that I worked my ass off for is just stupid to all of you. Maybe getting health care for my son even though it's not a public option just was awful. Maybe some of us are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, because we wanted ANY health care coverage and didn't care what form it took, because we were tired of not having any coverage and watching our kids be sick.
Maybe we should just stop all support and let the republicans & their stupid militia & Sarah Palin types run the country instead. Or have Dick Cheney for President.

Democrats are a wide pool of people with different beliefs and issues. This constant BULLSHIT infighting is why we NEVER get anywhere and why people who share our values would rather NOT VOTE or be part of this party, because if you can't compromise and work with different opinions then what fricking good of a party are we to anyone let alone Our Country.

I don't like this either, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that we are in a crisis and maybe calling Repugs and their fake/drilling idea that is not going anywhere in reality of how little oil is out there and the cost to drill for it and the fact it will take 20years to even get that far and by then the other environmental policies will be in effect & it won't matter.

[LynneSin]

21. I think he's trying to call out republicans as obstructionists

Because they are the ones that support all this drilling and they would have to support Obama to get it, something they have refused to do since day one.

[Bragi]

22. So he gives then what theyw ant for nothing? Great. /nt

[Marr]

23. Oh, it's shrewd alright.

So far, Obama has taken a consistent stance: reinforce the status-quo wherever it's threatened. If people demand healthcare reform, lash the insurance industry directly to the government. If they want financial reforms, shore up the banks with massive piles of taxpayer money. If they want to move toward cleaner energy...

The shrewd part is that he can sell this approach as not only Democratic, but "Change©". Shrewd, indeed.

[Johonny]

24. pretty much

The cost of refining US oil is in general higher than other oil sources. Unless they find a lot of easy to refine, easy to drill oil sitting there waiting for them, there isn't a lot of reasons to think the oil companies are exactly lining up to drill in these areas. It's mostly a made up RW political talking point which Obama has now taken away. Unless Republicans lie and say Obama opposes offshore drilling weither he does or not. Oh wait. So what did he gain again? Not more oil, not more RW support and not more environmental protection. It seems like Obama just made a deal with no one for no reason.

[depakid]

27. He's shred to anticipate the hue and cry from the coming gas price spikes

and attempt to politically inoculate himself.

[TheKentuckian]

29. Nope. It should work like that but it won't

They've been sitting on millions of acres of leases land and sea as well as the refinery situation forever and they get away with the bullshit ALWAYS.

They want the whole loaf and will eat it when they damn well please. You guys have to get off of expecting things to work rationally with these folks because they have tons of loot and the media is in their pocket. Did you see Big Ed pitching softballs to the President of Shell?

You can't put them in check because they ain't playing chess, you have to take their heads because they pull no punches and go for domination.

Republicans don't play chess.

MIC don't play chess.

Pharma don't play chess.

Big insurance don't play chess.

Big carbon certainly ain't fucking with chess. They will literally kill and have done it before.

You either put heads to bed or play ball by their rules.