Can Young Professional Women Have Male Mentors?

[Brooklyns_Finest]

I was talking to a female colleague of mine at dinner last night about work and career opportunities. I work for a federal agency that is 70% female. However, in the state we work in, there are many male managers (but still a minority). I'm one of those guys who is real good at the whole male bonding stuff. Needless to say, I am real tight with our small click of male managers. We email, go to happy hours, golfing, sporting events etc. My female friend is pissed/frustrated about this. She has not made the personal connections that I have. Personally, I do not feel bad for her. The vast majority of management is female. I ask her if she does things with female managers, and she says no (ironically, I am tight with some of the females as well). Apparently, the women are either married with kids and have no time for bonding/mentoring, or they are single career people who do not look out for their younger "sisters". She doesn't try to socialize with the male managers either.

The guys I hang with are older, married and established. It would be odd if one of them sent her an email (she is young and single) to get drinks after work, or go golfing on the weekends. My friend does blame not having a penis as being an inhibitor to making work connection . I think she is right, but I think that it has less to do with sexism and more to do with self preservation (on the part of the male managers). My agency is a tight knit community and people talk. The gossip circle is strong, so it makes more sense for these guys to socialize with the single guy (and live vicariously through me, lol), than to be perceived to be having an inappropriate relationship with a single woman.

What is my friend to do? I will point out that my managers are women, while the guys I socialize with are people I have met at conferences, training sessions, or people I have worked for before.

[LiberalFighter]

1. Check to see if there is any type of networking events in the city.

She could also try to get involved in the community with non-profits or other organizations that may lend itself to creating career opportunities.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

3. Well

Well, she does not plan on leaving the agency. We have a a lot of opportunity, but it is about getting your name out there. She is not that good a it.

[HipChick]

2. All of my mentors have been male

Female mentors don't seem to bond the way male mentors do..at times, I do wonder if networking is a lost art on the female side of the question, especially in the field where I work in which is still very heavily male dominated...you can't manage what people are going to think or say anyway...so as long as clear personal boundaries are set(and the males I deal with know they are liable to get kneed in the nutz if they think about crossing them) it shouldn't be a big deal..

[Brooklyns_Finest]

4. Exactly

I tell her to send friendly emails to some of our old managers, just to say hello. I also tell her to get to know as many people as possible (management and staff). She has this impression that she needs the help of one of our executives to get up there. Where as I engage everyone. I go to happy hours with management as well as staffers. I tell her that you never know where people will end up so you have to keep all your options open. My director, a woman, calls me a "kiss up", but she admires my tenacity to network.

Truth be told, both my friend and I are doing pretty well in our careers. She has three years on me and we are at the same grade, but her maturity level is what is killing her.

[HipChick]

5. I hear you...my last two positions have been the direct result of networking

It was hard for me to network at first, but it's really key..especially in this job market...I loathe golf, but if I heard the guys were going off to golf, I'd be sure to invite myself..and participate anyway..I'm really good at inviting myself to things..they pretty much have to tell me NO to my face..:rofl:

[Brooklyns_Finest]

15. Exactly

Especially when you put in for an internal job assignments. All things being equal, the hiring manager will probably pick the person he knows, or at least heard good things about.

Funny how you say that you invited yourself to events. A few nights ago I did exactly that. I had a great time and met an up-in-comer in the agency.

[seabeyond]

6. firstly i am sure those men were single, and happy with choice of marriage and dont need to live

vicariously thru your singleness. been there done that. i would have more issue hubby hanging with a single guy that didn't get that. pretty pompous.

secondly, why dont you invite her for drink with the guys when you have a drink after work sometime? if all is on the up and up, there should not be a problem

i worked single for over a decade in male dominated environment. would would drink after work. there was a line, no sexual play and clear to all. the spouses were confident and no issue, because it was clear nothing up.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

19. Lol

My friend would have no interest golfing with the guys.

As far as happy hours go, well, I have invited her to some events within our peer/GS grade group, but she never wants to go. Actually, when we were regular worker bees I used to host several happy hour events with the staff and she never went. She can be a bit of an elitist (for no good reason). If they are nor a manager or exec then it isn't worth her time.

I don't really think she cares much about the agency, it's mission or even our customer base. She seems to be in it just for the GS grade (which really isn't that much money). She talks about making GS 15 or SES, but she feels as if it should be given to her instead of her working her way up the ladder. I told her if she wanted to make grade quickly with little effort she should move to DC or Baltimore.

But back to the main issue. We work in a female dominated environment, yet she blames her career "stagnation" to the boys club.

[seabeyond]

24. hm... there are options and she rejects them all. sounds like she is the issue

all i had were male "mentors" so in answer to your question, of course women can have been mentors. lol

[haele]

7. I belong to a couple professional women's organization in my field (federal gov/engineering) -

They're very good about mentoring the under-25 set and the younger worker-bee types, but once they're "in leadership roles",it's a bit different. If you're not a loyal soldier or a BFF type, or if you're in a job where there's not a lot of socialization, it's difficult to get any hints or support that is specifically structured for women working for women.
Luncheons where the speakers go on about "finding time for you", "giving back to the community" or my favorite "Keeping your spiritual core" (always Xtian and "family role" based,for some reason - very isolating for a socialist pagan retired Navy Chief like me); Makeovers for less fortunate women days, and Marathons are not really what I like to participate in. And the majority of the women who go to such events are claiming to be there to "network" but ultimately hang out with their friends and maybe be seen by others.
I know I tend to network better with and work better with men - at my age, they're more concerned with how well I can do and handle my tasking. Women at my age tend to be more concerned with competition and keeping their options open if they want to jump ship.

I have noticed in fields that have more women in management positions, there are a lot more mentors out there. I suspect it is because the women in management are more secure with their positions in the power structure and their ability to keep working in a volatile job market than they are in fields where there is an established perception of male hierarchy.

Haele

[Doremus]

8. My first mentor as a young woman was a woman in her 50s.

She was my immediate superior and I just loved her to pieces. Learned so much from her.

After she left, the department was reorganized and my new superior was VP of Operations. He became my mentor but he threw me under the bus a few years later during the next reorganization.

My advice to your friend is to be cordial to everyone and seize any opportunity to socialize outside of the office. Experience has taught me that gender matters less than the character of the person she befriends.

[frustrated_lefty]

9. Networking is brutal.

I suck at it, it does not come naturally. Male mentors have told me point blank to develop it like a skill. Curiously, female mentors have never commented on it.

It's a real challenge if you hate happy hour, loathe sports, and view golf as the last domain of the spoiled white guy with too much money on his hands. Pretending to enjoy the experience, I think, is on par with faking an orgasm. Yay! It was great! Are we done yet? No, no, really, don't call me in the morning.

As to your friend, she basically has to learn to fake it, or be ten times better than anybody else at what she does.

[notadmblnd]

10. Women are their own worst enemies

They're catty, resentful and jealous of each other. When a new woman is introduced to a group, generally everyone sizes her up. Sure, they are polite to her face, but the minute she walks out of the room she will be talked about and attacked for her perceived flaws both physically and professionally. Women take information in and set on it. Keeping it for a time when it can be pulled out and used as a weapon. Is she too fat or to skinny, or a know it all, or bossy and nosy? Is she promiscuous? Married, single? Does she have fashion sense that is up to their standards? Does she behave as if she's better than them? It has been my experience that if she presents no threat to any of them, she will be accepted into the group as an equal. This will lead to them bringing them into their social circle outside of work. Men don't generally see each other that way. They are accepted for their appearance, they do more to help and support each other without the hidden agenda of gaining personal knowledge for future use against each other, or being most appreciated/needed. Men are not considered bitches if they are strong and aggressive or tell it like it is. They do not for the most part, see each other as threats. Guys will allow another man into their social circle whether everyone likes him or not.

That being said, mentoring does not have to take place out side of the office. If your friend was brought in to take over, then she is an outsider and management. Someone that can hurt them. Until she shows that she needs these other women to succeed, it's not going to happen. Especially if your friend is perceived as any of these things I described by the women in the group.

[Quantess]

16. It all depends on how profesional people are .

Anyone who is way too gossipy or catty will sooner or later find that coming back to bite them.

[bettyellen]

20. what a bunch of crappy stereotypes- and none of them fit me or my friends.

[notadmblnd]

32. The post wasn't about friends. It was about how women work with each other.

[bettyellen]

38. um, yeah i read it. and i know how my friends + coworkers behave at work, and this is bullshit

men are every bit as gossipy, and i have found them to be more backstabbing than women ever are. but what do i know i just closely managed a dozen or so men and women over the last 20 years.
funny you ay catty things about women then assume I don;t even understand the premise of your post.

[customerserviceguy]

26. I've observed this, too

and all of the women in my life have confirmed it.

If a woman comes into work without makeup, the guys don't notice anything, but it's other women who will ask, "Are you sick? Not feeling well?" Women enforce the double standards that men often get blamed for.

[etherealtruth]

29. Probably the opposite of my experience

... when I was a young woman I was mentored by by smart, secure, successful "middle-aged" woman .... they helped me define myself professionally and as a human being. I am forever in their debt. In my "middle-age" I have tried very hard to repay the debt by reaching out to young women. I hope I am passing on some of the gifts that I had been entrusted with.

[notadmblnd]

31. I said this about womwn working with women. Not men

[etherealtruth]

33. I am a woman speaking about the wonderful experiences I have had working with women

?

[bettyellen]

39. ha ha, you're not even bothering to read what the woman wrote. easier to assume your silly

stereotypes are holding up.

[demmiblue]

34. Meh... most women I have worked for/with stressed a cooperative and collaborative work environment.

Many of the men I worked for/with were simply in it for themselves.

:shrug:

[tammywammy]

35. I think it just depends

My previous job I had a woman boss and she was just awful. Plus, minus one co-worker, everyone (and it was all female) was ready to stab you in the back over every little thing. My boss even resented the fact that I was going back to school. Now I work with mostly men and my boss is male and it's the opposite.

BTW, my mentor at the new job is a woman. :)

[demmiblue]

37. Of course...

I was just pointing out my experiences in respect to the person that made out all women workers to be shallow harpies. I am not that way, nor were the majority of women I have dealt with.

I am with you in that it depends on the people involved.

Good luck with your new mentor! :hug:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. What Federal agency is 70% women?

[frustrated_lefty]

12. It was formed by republicans and they all wear leather....

sorry, had to....

[Brooklyns_Finest]

14. SSA

Give or a take a few percentage points.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. I had not realized that it has gone that far...thanks

[krabigirl]

13. I did.

[4lbs]

17. There was a similar situation in a private company I used to work for in the 1990s.

We had a male manager that mentored females on occasion. One way the male manager got around the obvious gossip and rumor of inappropriate relationship was to mentor multiple females at the same time.

If people see married Joe with single Jill a lot, and it's just the two of them, there will be gossip and rumor of something more than professional dealings.

However, seeing married Joe with single Jill, single Mary, and married Susan, people don't make the connection that there is extracurricular activity.

[Cleita]

18. This was a bone of contention back when women started to break the

glass ceiling, that they were being kept our of men's clubs where the informal business deals were hatched and they were left out making it hard for them to complete on a level field. It looks like nothing has changed.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

22. Possibly

Like I said, the majority of management is women. One of my friends complaint is that the female managers do not put themselves out there to help her or other females out. Now, I don't know if this is really true, but this is how my friend feels.

Funny enough, I was talking to an operations worker recently and was giving him some advice on getting promoted. He complained to me that he doesn't feel that the female supervisors will give him an opportunity. I just shook my head, once you start getting in to that mindset, it is really hard to change. I'm all about keeping a positive attitude.

[bettyellen]

21. you realize you are making sexist excuses to exclude her- maybe underneath it all...

you're glad of it because you will might be competing w/ her?
why haven't you included her in any outings- or introduce her to these people you suck up to?

[Brooklyns_Finest]

23. She will be fine

Introductions are not needed. She knows of everyone I know. The difference is, I took the time out to befriend them. I wouldn't call myself a suck up, I'm just sociable!

[bettyellen]

25. so what does she expect to happen if she doesn;t want (as you say) hang with the guys

i don;t get it- does she think if she waits around long enough the'll invite her to do what she wants to do? i don;t get it. she sounds kind of like a spoiled brat.
that said, you and the dude should actually reach out to include females in the future.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

28. She is 30

Has worked for the agency for 8 years. This is her first job ever and you are right she is spoiled. I've known her since I started and she has always had a sense of entitlement. Like I said, she really feels as if she no longer needs to do the hard stuff. She wants immediate satisfaction. I am trying to tell her that most of the people whom she aspires to be like have been with the agency for 20 + years. The younger folk who move up quickly are quite exceptional (she's ok).

But yes, she feels as if management should reach out to her. However, I think she feels uncomfortable taking to the male managers because of her gender. The other issue is that she has reached out to some female managers and they have not provided the kind of support that some male managers can/have provided to others. Well, that is what she has told me. I have not found this the case for myself; my biggest cheerleader is my director who is a woman.

In the end of the day, I don't feel too bad for her. Our agency is aging rapidly and I see retirements happening all the time. My friend will have endless opportunities to advance.

[XemaSab]

27. This is an interesting discussion

You raise interesting points.

[Gwendolyn]

36. My most beloved mentor was male. Yeah he eventually made a move, but nothing's perfect.

Never had a problem honing in on the guys' cliques, as the trick is to act like one of the guys. Don't play golf but have still shown up for the odd weekend thing to take some boring golf clinique -- then escape to the spa on company dime. Or provide goofy comic relief if they actually get me out there. Works with my schtick. But as long as I'm around for the drinks and dinner convo that's what counts. Networking can be really exhausting and dull, but when you're in an interesting business, it can be lots of fun too. I meet lots of creative, funny, wackadoodles and would probably look for these people even if it wasn't about work. I've sent out my CV once. All of my job hopping up to now, has been the result of opportunities offered through people I met at a gathering.

I work in advertising so have had the "pleasure" of meeting up with some of the most creatively sociopathic back stabbers that were ever spawned from the 10th circle of hell. Both men and women can be devious, cruel f*ckers, but from my own experience, the women who fall into that category were far worse.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

40. It is more about personalities than gender

My girlfriend is always much more at ease around men than other women, she finds other women catty, cliquish and boring. She loves the outdoors, she loves cars, motorcycles and airplanes, she loves (participating in) sports and lives for video games. She works in the electronics industry and has never had difficulty connecting professionally. I know some wives aren't terribly fond of her though.