Engineer finds it hard to compete against foreign tech workers

[Newsjock]

Source: Advance Newspapers (Michigan)

Michigan Job Search asked readers to share their stories of long-term unemployment to put a face to the unemployed. Here, this engineer shares his story about the difficulty of competing for tech jobs with foreign workers.

I am a 45-year-old tech worker. I have a master's degree in electrical engineering.

Up until 2002, I was doing incredibly well. At that point, I had 15 years of professional experience with several companies. I had many of the necessary certifications that were in demand. I had peaked at nearly a six-figure income. Then the bottom dropped out.

Congress voted to raise the H-1B visa limit "temporarily" to 195,000 workers per year for the following three years. An H-1B visa worker is a foreign worker who is usually educated and skilled. They are "sponsored" by a company in the U.S.

... After being unemployed for a year, I picked up and moved on to a job that paid $10 an hour and stuck that out until getting laid off in September 2008.

... My unemployment benefits run out this week. It pains me that the people running this country care more about employing foreign workers in our own backyard than they do American citizens. Even now, with unemployment so high in the state of Michigan, companies are hiring H-1B workers more than ever.

Read more: http://www.mlive.com/michigan-job-search/index.ssf/2010/04/not_just_a_number_engineer_finds_it_hard.html

[HughMoran]

1. That's me

...or at least it could be. My sleazy (former) company would do anything to get H1B's over here, underpay them, then send them back after I 'trained' them to do my job. :mad: I got laid off from that place last year and it's not easy finding work these days (working for now.) It better not get much worse, you do not want a bunch of angry, highly educated professionals out there raising hell. At least that's what was said in an article I read about why tech pros are a lot better at applying political pressure :)

[Grand Taurean]

2. The media then props up the nonsense about America's failing schools

as an excuse to import more cheap labor.

[cascadiance]

67. Ignoring the FACT that kids are too smart to invest megabucks into an outsourceable career!

THAT is the f'ing problem! Stop the outsourcing, and lower the costs of college (at least a bachelor's degree), and then you might have the smart kids that might enter this field pursue the necessary education to enter this field. They AREN'T STUPID! They don't want to get stuck with huge college debt when their jobs go over to India or China (either here or there).

And when India gives its own people FREE college education for bachelor's degrees, its not a level playing field!

[msongs]

3. there u go again criticizing obama and congress for their anti-american policies lol call your

political representatives and tell em u will not vote for them again until they change their hate americans pro corporate whores policy. better yet join any campain to elect progressive/liberals from your district to get rid of the conservadems now in charge. good luck to you.

Msongs

[DesertFlower]

4. my husband works for a large international

company. he says he's a minority at work. there are so many from india. if he didn't have a special skill he would be replaced too.

[girl gone mad]

7. I visited a friend a couple of weeks ago..

He lives in an apartment complex in the high-tech corridor in N. Dallas. 10 or 15 years ago this area was filled with recent American college grads and young families just starting careers at local businesses like Texas Instruments. Now, the apartments are packed with H1-B immigrants, sometimes 4 or 6 to a 1 or 2 bedroom unit. There was no labor shortage here before the replacements were brought in.

[DesertFlower]

12. there are apartments across the street

from hubby's office. same thing.

[MattBaggins]

46. Now if my umemployed brother and his family moved

into with me and we were over crowding my house; you can bet your ass that someone from the city would be banging on our door.

H1-b Visa program should be scrapped completely. If a foreign talent is actually a talent that can't be found here; let them come here normally and offer them citizenship.

[cascadiance]

66. A "crowd" of H-1B visa people moved across from me in a 4 plex near the end of the dotcom bomb era..

... in the bay area.

Stewart Alsop's "Digital Gardner" used to live there and was a good friend of mine then, but had to move out when his lease was up and landlord tried to raise the rent around 40%. I took that as a lesson and left not long after that before my lease was up, and got a lot better place for the same sort of money I would have been charged had I try to stay. Of course when my six month lease expired then for the next place, the landlord wanted to sell the place, and that was my marching orders to leave the bay area then to San Diego, which later became a housing mess too.

When the person responsible for "herding" the H-1B "crowd" into this apartment saw the place himself, he had them all kicked out (and sent to another part of San Jose) so he could have it himself. That's how much rights these "indentured servants" have in this environment with H-1B contracts. Americans wouldn't allow themselves to get pushed around like this and herded into small housing like that.

That's what we had to compete with then and apparently still do, according to these messages.

[housewolf]

5. It's me too

I'm an IT worker, QA software tester. I work contract positions. Contract tester rates have dropped 30% since 2002. Last year I was required to take a 15% rate reduction - either that or leave. Everywhere I go, the places are filled with H1B visa workers from India who are willing to work for less money than I want. Individually, I like them all even though I sometimes have trouble communicating with them due to their accents. They are young, competent and generally do good work. My 30+ years experience means nothing competing with them for positions.

It's very sad... here I went to school, learned good skills and thought I had a career that would last me a lifetime...

[Vincardog]

6. Bingo: I went to school, learned good skills and thought I had a career that would last me a lifetim...

Me too. IT died to me 10 years ago.

[izquierdista]

8. It's not just IT

You could be a physicist or an EE or a chemist or a Mech E, the race to the bottom lets EVERYONE play!

[Liberal_in_LA]

24. The Indian techs I know are stuck in their jobs by their immigrant status, a race to bottom

for everyone. They don't have the employment mobility of a American citizen. not getting the kind of pay techs got 10 years ago.

[onpatrol98]

64. True

I read an article where in some state (I can't remember which one) they are bringing in high school teachers on H1-B visas. The same article mentioned that this is also a growing craze with entry level accountants.

[Greyhound]

15. I'm sure that you know that it isn't their fault as do I, but also realize that

they are not saddled with 10's or even 100's of thousands of dollars in debt when they graduate either.

Of course now you can spend another 4 - 6 years as a moving target to escape some of the debt.

[OhioChick]

9. It's bad out there...

I have quite a few friends that are superb at what they do, but can't find work.

"Azlady" here at DU trained 4 H-1B's while at 4 different companies to do her job. :(

[Odin2005]

10. I'm terrified that the moment I get my BSci in Biotech they are going to outsource the industry.

[conspirator]

33. Biotech is still more or less new. You are in luck. India has not trained yet many of those nt

[MattBaggins]

47. Unemployed Biotech worker here.

They are working as fast as they can to bring in more H1-B visas and out source as much production as they can off shore. The only thing really holding them up is trying to get off shore facilities up to FDA standards; but I'm sure they busy greasing palms to get the FDA to relax it's enforcement in overseas production plants.

[Odin2005]

52. Ah shit!

[Juche]

44. Same here

I have a BS in biochemistry. In between outsourcing manufacturing & R&D (where a lot of the work is) or importing H1B visas, I really don't know what my future is.

It bothers me when politicians pretend we don't have enough people trained in math and science to survive the 21st century. That is bullshit. What we don't have are corporations willing to employ us rather than outsource or hire H1B visas.

[jayfish]

11. My Advice To Those Who Still Have Jobs In The Tech World...

is to burrow into your employer like a tick. Take on everything thrown at you and ask for more. Make yourself indispensable and do it with a smile. A person who does the work of two of two or three people and is well liked is hard to discard.

FSH

[HipChick]

14. or get a position that requires security clearance..

and that you can pass...its a big plus

[sfwriter]

16. Actually, no...

I have been laid off from two jobs where I passed my duties of to three and four people when I left. Some overseas, some not.

It gains you no security.

Also, in my life, I have been laid off the month before the birth of my first daughter and the DAY BEFORE the birth of my second. I do not know what having a child, a job, healthcare, and security at the same time feel like. In the great roulette wheel of life, it hasn't happened for me.

On my resume over the last 20 years, Apple and NASA via the AIAA are the only two employers still existent aside from my most recent. They are now the size they were in 1998 and shrinking. That's three out of nine still alive. I've ridden several into the ground.

No, the H1-B visa thing is insane. It MUST END.

[jayfish]

27. "No, the H1-B visa thing is insane. It MUST END."

No argument there and I'm sorry about some of your unfortunate terminations. Nothing is universal and I still think it's good advice.

FSH

[The Gunslinger]

21. Be the good corporate tool.

It shouldn't have to come down to being a slave.

[jayfish]

28. "Be A Good Corporate Tool."

Isn't that what your employer is paying you for? I never said you had to like it and I never said you had to be a slave. Just do a good job, build up your skills and try to make it more expensive to replace you than keep you.

FSH

[conspirator]

34. Yeah. A good Slave is hard to discard. NEVER. If IT does not pay decently I rather work

as a supermarket Cashier. Less stress.
The problem is that there are not even Cashier jobs left.

[Fool Count]

56. Well, while you are at it, also ask for a salary cut, to show your

boss that you are not only willing to work longer hours but also for less money.
I am sure he will appreciate. Or better yet, volunteer to move to India and
do the same work for one tenth the pay. If that doesn't secure your employment
forever, then you are just no good and shouldn't be complaining.

[Flatulo]

59. It won't matter... they close entire sites when the offshore replacement is up to speed. nt

[tinrobot]

61. If you want to work that hard, then work for yourself.

If you have the tenacity and drive to do the work of two or three people, then you're prime candidate for starting your own business and being successful at it.

Too many people never work up the courage to wean themselves off the corporate teat.

[undergroundnomore]

63. True enough

they are laying off teachers in my school district. I volunteered to do some of the crap jobs that NO ONE likes doing in my department. The principal was thrilled. She then smiled and mentioned that I would be losing my extended day pay because the school district can't afford it anymore. Thank you. thank you. Thank you. Thank goodness that means that I will be able to pay the rent next year.

[Greyhound]

13. The same story millions of times over.

I myself went from contributing between $40K and $60K per year in taxes to receiving what benefits there are to qualifying Little Greyhound for Head of Household status (IOW, I have no income at all).

The next time you hear about how the state can't afford to keep schools and libraries open, and the next time you spend $40 on a shirt that disintegrates after being washed twice, or you spend two hours on the phone explaining for the sixth time that your brand new lawnmower won't start, remember who did this!
:kick: & R

[truedelphi]

19. And coming soon, cargo ships full of Nuclear Power Plant components

Made in China - the same nation that cannot produce a garden hose that stays intact for more than three months!

[unabelladonna]

17. husband and i are out of the workforce (retired)

what can average citizens do to help stop this nonsense? i see this once great country crumbling before my very eyes.

[truedelphi]

18. Hey there, tech worker. CNN just had a story detailing how to

Go out there and change your situation from unemployed to employed!

Switch fields and INTERN.

Yes by agreeing to work for absolutely free, you too can be employed. The people that CNN interviewed were absolutely enthused about their wonderful job experiences while they worked for free! (I mean, think of the time you'd save cashing that nasty old Paycheck.)

And maybe someday you'll have a real job, that will pay maybe ten bucks an hour. Though with the millions now unemployed I don't know about that - why would any company pay someone when they can simply go through endless supplies of interns who have promised to devote six months of their time to work at the company FOR FREE!

[Strelnikov_]

36. "by agreeing to work for absolutely free, you too can be employed"

Classic

[malletgirl02]

51. unpaid internships are a waste of time

About 18 months ago, I took an unpaid internship in my field instead of a basic data entry job that paid. I end up emailing the person who interviewed me for that data entry position when I couldn't find a job after the internship ended.

Unpaid internships actually puts people in a worst position than just staying unemployed when you factor in transportation and clothing upkeep costs.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. I have offshore tech companies calling me for help.

It all depends on skill set. It is a small world crammed with smart people. Get used to it.

[Greyhound]

22. What an apt name. n/t

[MadMaddie]

23. The H-1B program should be suspended and all workers on

the program should be given 3 months to leave the country.

Is that harsh? Yes, it is and I am not ashamed to say it. We have Americans that are being hung out and pushed into desperation because of this program. There is no way you can tell me with the current high unemployment rate you cannot find qualified U.S. workers. These companies are blowing smoke up everyone's ass.

I was looking for 2010 statistics if anyone can find them and share them that would be great!

[Grand Taurean]

25. I am with you.

[OhioChick]

31. +1000 n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

37. And that would not change the tech industry situation much.

Asian development and support organizations compete using their facilities in their countries. High tech development and support is pretty much impossible to protect using any sort of trade barriers. The only real barriers are cost of entry - complex chip fabrication for example.

While I think H1-B visas have been abused, they are not the problem here. The thread leap-frogged from how we are losing tech jobs to asia to how we have to evict all them foreigners here without anyone blinking or noting the irony as we segued to xenophobic nativism.

[MadMaddie]

40. Hmmmm I specifically noted H1B workers and not all

foreigners. If the economy was in better shape and we didn't have a 10 -15% unemployment rate across the country I would have no issue with the H1B program. The reality is that we have "Qualified" IT workers now looking for work.

I noticed that you don't include the wage disparity between the H1B workers and American workers. This is the true reason why companies are hiring these workers.

I am wondering why it really doesn't bother many folks that the U.S should have development and support organizations within our own borders. This is not about isolationism but it is about the U.S not leading the world in innovation and producing new technologies.

<snip>
Asian development and support organizations compete using their facilities in their countries.
<snip>

It's great that other countries are doing well but is America allowed to do well?

[MattBaggins]

48. Nice try but asking for a slave program to end is not

asking for all fur'ners to be expelled.

[musette_sf]

39. + 1

:thumbsup:

[cascadiance]

68. That or have them apply for citizenship here and accelerate that process so it doesn't take years...

I don't mind people moving here to be citizens, so they can have the benefits of a job here AND the responsibilities of being an American citizen.

If they can vote and be a part of the citizenry with the same rights (to move to other higher paying jobs, etc.) then fine. If we can then help get a bigger organized work force of voters that way, at least we help the working man a little more than we have with their current "indentured servitude".

[AzDar]

26. K & R

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. This is devastation.

Our own congresspeople did this to us.

[TheFarseer]

30. slightly off topic but

Indian IT workers often come into our office to get their taxes done. Almost without exception we do all the work and they see their refund amount and then the price and have a fit that they're not getting enough back or it costs too much and leave without paying anything. It's to the point where no one wants to help them but that's not really an option.

[Leftist Agitator]

32. "It's to the point where no one wants to help them..."

Then the solution is quite simple: fuck up their taxes, and refuse to sign off as a preparer, have them sign off on it instead.

Then make a surreptitious call to the IRS.

Problem solved!

[TheFarseer]

41. sounds good but I'd probably get sued.

Here's something scary - they were experimenting with online taxes. You could scan in your documents and someone God knows where would complete your return for you to sign off on. Just what everyone wants - a 15 year old in India fucking up your taxes. We were having normal tax pros doing the work this year but that's just too easy to outsource.

[goldcanyonaz]

35. My job as a engineer now includes many tasks that used to be other peoples jobs.

They are now paying much less but expecting much more.

[MattBaggins]

49. But they love to spout off about how productivity is increasing

Productivity = I work twice as hard for half as much money.

[exman]

38. Unskilled workers a problem too...

Recently a friend who is an experienced heavy equipment operator, (a 40 year old, sober kind of guy) was refused employment at a large co that is doing a huge highway construction project in my county. He was interviewed and told " you sound like just the guy we need, by the way can you speak Spanish?" When he replied "no" he was told too bad they couldn't hire him because "he would not be able to communicate with the crew" I have personally run into this trying to find restaurant jobs. You can no longer even get a job washing dishes if you don't speak a foreign language. So high tech workers need not feel alone, job discrimination is a very real problem whether you push a broom or program a computer...

[JCMach1]

42. India and China combined graduate over 500K Engineers every year

I wouldn't warn anyone off of their dream, but any students who cross my path get that nugget of information for the future.

[Juche]

43. The numbers aren't that high

Supposedly nations like China consider auto mechanics, HVAC technicians and people like that to be engineers too when they calculate those numbers.

Not only that, but the quality of the education isn't as good from what I have heard. There aren't as many labs, and the workers aren't as decent.

[JCMach1]

45. Umm... yes they do

Every year India intakes around 350000 Engineering graduates... http://www.nasscom.in/download/Engineering_Talent_Pool_Reseach_Highlights1.0.pdf

...China is today the largest producer of engineering graduates in the world, with some 600,000 passing out of its colleges and universities last year.

India, it seems, isn't far behind.

According to the All India Council for Technical Education, India produced 401,791 engineers in 2003-04, 35 per cent being computer engineers. In 2004-05, the number of engineering graduates increased to 464,743, of which 31 per cent were computer engineers.

Compared to India and China, the United States produces only 70,000 engineering graduates every year. All of Europe produces just 100,000... http://www.rediff.com/money/2006/jun/09bspec.htm

We can quibble about qualifications, but the numbers are VERY high...

There are also large numbers coming out of the Arab world.

Bury your head in the sand at your own peril... Even here in the Middle-East, there is increasing job pressure on engineers. The typical setup is for project engineers to do the highly-paid and to organize the other engineers (largely from India). Literally, engineers can be hired in bulk for between 500-2500$ per month depending on the quality and details needed for the job. Why hire one American engineer when you can hire 10 qualified Indian engineers for the same price? You see the problem.

Of course, the schools keep churning out engineers...

So yeah, many engineering jobs will be going the way of the IT jobs (if it can be outsourced, it will be).

[Juche]

70. The figures are exaggerated

The no. of engineers in China & India is grossly exaggerated. That isn't burying my head in the sand, that is just the way it is. FTR, I think engineering is a bad field to go into because of all the insecurity and outsourcing, but the concept that 1 million engineers are minted in India & China with the academic and work skills equivalent of a BS degree isn't true.

According to a Duke study it is closer to 350k in China and 112k in India.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901760.html

In fact, about half of what China calls "engineers" would be called "technicians" at best in the United States, with the equivalent of a vocational certificate or an associate degree. In addition, the McKinsey study of nine occupations, including engineering, concluded that "fewer than 10 percent of Chinese job candidates, on average, would be suitable for work in the nine occupations we studied."

After an exhaustive study, researchers at Duke University also pummeled the numbers. In a December 2005 analysis, "Framing the Engineering Outsourcing Debate," they reported that the United States annually produces 137,437 engineers with at least a bachelor's degree while India produces 112,000 and China 351,537. That's more U.S. degrees per million residents than in either other nation.

[cascadiance]

69. Indians get FREE bachelor's degree educations too!

When they have a free education and they are given high tech job opportunities both there and overseas that are growing with the "globalization" folks looking to take advantage of their lower costs, its not too hard to see why they seek out high tech degrees more there than we do here. If they had to pay as much as we do for a college education, I'd GUARANTEE you those numbers would be a lot less.

[madchick44]

50. It's not the foreign workers they care about

it's the bottom line. When will people see and understand that good paying jobs are what has given the standard of economic living that America thrived on for so long. Cheap labor will eventually cheapen our standard of living in so many ways. Only the 2% at the top will benefit and the rest of us will suffer. Think what the nation would be without social security, medicare, medicaid, unemployment comp, welfare.
These are stabilizing programs and therefore benefit the entire nation. Fools don't understand this and don't really want to understand this.

[ChromeFoundry]

53. In the race to the bottom...

gravity always wins.

[CLANG]

54. Greed killed America. And greed will kill the human race.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

55. There is no such thing as job security. I was laid off from a so-called

green energy company in January. Greed and poor management can screw up even a good idea/company.

Management "managed" (for lack of a better word) to fuck up a major project and the company could no longer afford to pursue new ones. They laid me off, along with five others. Of course, they didn't lay off the highly paid executives.

[Nikki Stone1]

57. It's called "checking wage inflation" and hiring foreign workers without protections

It's the same thing that's done in the minimum wage sector and it's about reducing American pay and protections.

[starzdust]

58. I'm a teacher

...and guess what? It CAN happen to me as well. I feel lucky as I am currently a federal employee at a BIA school in a remote location...
However it's never a fee lunch. The cost to me is my mental health. I suffer from clinical depression and am being treated. I always feel no matter how well I do, it's never good enough. I feel like a slave. I have a lot of angst, I do my best, but it's a struggle.

I think the school is looking for an IT specialist, no one yet has qualified or wants this job in such a remote location. Yes, it is a pain to apply for a federal job, but if you are willing to relocate to a remote location, you might just find a job.

Keep your chin up and hope the best for the future.
Regards,
JP

[Flatulo]

60. Same story here...

I got laid off almost a year ago after a 30+ year career. It wasn't personal; the company closed the entire design center and moved the jobs to China.

I've been surviving the last year by working as a contractor at exactly 1/2 my former salary. I'm 54 and do not expect to ever have a full-time job again. I'm doing work that is about 5 pay grades below my skill level.

In the meantime, 90% of the people where I'm contracting are H-1B workers. This company (which, ironically is a green business run by the most evil and greedy CEO imaginable), will simply not hire a permanant American worker. All new hires are to be located in China. I've been training these guys for months now.

[undergroundnomore]

62. This is sort of what happened to my husband

He has a Masters in Mechanical Engineering. He had always received excellent evaluations. He saved the company where he worked hundreds of thousands of dollars. His reward? The company closed the local plant where he worked. This meant he and thousands of others unemployed.

The company was one of the largest employers in our town.

I helped him send out hundreds of resumes, helped him prep for job interviews, and finally he wound up with a job. After a year an a half. He works for the same school district as I do in the maintenance department. We are just thankful that he has this job. So many people have NO job.

We worry about jobs and companies going overseas but everyone's job is up for grabs except for the rich guys at the top.

[KG]

65. ah, c'mon. there's lots of jobs $10 hr jobs out there. signs springin up all over the place!