Richard Dawkins: I will arrest the Pope

[cal04]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7094310.ece#comment-have-your-say

RICHARD DAWKINS, the atheist campaigner, is planning a legal ambush to have the Pope arrested during his state visit to Britain “for crimes against humanity”.

Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, the atheist author, have asked human rights lawyers to produce a case for charging Pope Benedict XVI over his alleged cover-up of sexual abuse in the Catholic church.

The pair believe they can exploit the same legal principle used to arrest Augusto Pinochet, the late Chilean dictator, when he visited Britain in 1998.

(snip)
The lawyers believe they can ask the Crown Prosecution Service to initiate criminal proceedings against the Pope, launch their own civil action against him or refer his case to the International Criminal Court.

[Canuckistanian]

1. A citizen's arrest of the Pope?

Now there's something you don't see every day.

[MadHound]

2. Dawkins will get shot, you don't fuck around with the Swiss Guard

Frankly I doubt that the CPS will do anything either, or the ICC.

[Grand Taurean]

5. True. Though the Swiss Guard has it's history of defending

criminals. Enough said of the little troll from Rome.

[arcadian]

11. Creating an even big scandal.

[Historic NY]

28. not to mention the Metropolitan Police armed with full auto weapons.

[DesertFlower]

3. interesting. nt

[walldude]

4. They can go for more than cover up...

Shielding these guys was one thing but the Church moved them around, serving up a new batch of kids like dinner. That is a criminal conspiracy...

[CoffeeCat]

29. That's what I can't get out of my head...

So, ok--you want to protect your precious institution. You find a raging
pedophile who admits to molesting many children. So...you cover up his crimes
and then relegate him to a position in the Church where he will never be alone with
children again. But that's not what they did.

Why would they have put known child molesters in positions of power and authority--around
innocent children?

Pedophiles are the only people who would do this sort of thing.

I really think there is more here than "covering up to protect the Church." I think
they were literally running a pedophile ring. Remember, this went on for decades.
The only reason it was stopped was because victims refused to remain silent. It
would have continued.

[Cronus Protagonist]

36. The pope is my least favorite atheist

He can't be a believer because he would also have to believe he's going to hell.

[Birthmark]

6. Then Dawkins will go to Venus...

...and bring us back some fire-maidens.

Dawkins is perhaps my least favorite atheist.

[Tesha]

12. How tragic for you. (NT)

[Birthmark]

16. Thanks for your condolence.

It's very classy of you.

[sudopod]

20. Ever read any of his books?

he really is the nicest guy in the world, he's just built up as a huge bully by folks who don't agree with him.

[Birthmark]

21. I doubt he says anything in them that I need to hear.

I've read various articles by him. He strikes me as arrogant, needlessly confrontational, and more injurious to atheism than helpful. Frankly, I wish he'd STFU and go live on an island somewhere.

YMMV

[sudopod]

38. Prejudged much?

It'd be like me saying I hate Shakespeare even though I'd never read his plays but had heard a sonnet or two. Maybe poetry just isn't my thing. I'd only be cheating myself by maintaining my ignorance, though.

Dawkins is a great writer. He makes very technical subjects easy to grasp for outsiders and does a good job at challenging people's preconceptions. I can appreciate that.

[Birthmark]

39. I might ask you the same thing

I'm sure that I've read much more by Dawkins (though none of his books) than you have read things written by me. I don't particularly *need* technical subjects made easy to grasp. So that's not something I'm likely to be impressed by. If I need to understand a subject, I'll actually research it myself and do the work to understand it. I find it more rewarding than being spoon-fed by a pompous ass.

You're perfectly free to feel differently.

[sudopod]

50. You don't think it's a little bit weird that you hate this man so much?

Also, the ability of a scientist to explain complex subjects to non-technical folks is incredibly valuable. People like Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Stephen Hawking, and Richard Dawkins can help everyone understand the amazing things being done every day in our quest to understand the cosmos and all of the weird and wonderful things therein. As a research engineer, I can go and browse though the literature and read it straight from the horse's mouth, but come on, that stuff is as dry and boring as all get out. It is also impossible to read without a some education in the subject, and that goes doubly so for something like molecular biology. Do YOU know what NF-Kappa-alpha does in the brain?

I think that anytime we find ourselves hating some public figure, we should ask ourselves why. Did we come to that conclusion ourselves by looking at the evidence, or have we been manipulated by people with the motivation, money, and power to do so?


"You do know that 0bama is a Kenyan communist usurper, right?"


By the way, misleading headline is misleading:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8127948&mesg_id=8130295

[Birthmark]

56. Hate? Where did you get that?

I think he's a self-important windbag. That's a very long way from hate. In point of fact, I hate no one. Dawkins may be very skilled at explaining things...for you. You aren't everybody. Neither am I.

"Do YOU know what NF-Kappa-alpha does in the brain?"
No, as a matter of fact. Give me a couple of weeks and I'll have a decent layman's understanding, though.

"By the way, misleading headline is misleading"
Yes, I saw that. Isn't it interesting that absolutely no one contested it when it was posted? Does that not lend some credibility to my position?

Dawkins, imo, has a "HEY, look at ME! And if you don't, you're stupid." thing going on. Neil de Grasse Tyson, like Carl Sagan before him, is very much about the science. I greatly enjoy(ed) their enthusiasm and their abilities. Hawking a bit less, but he's still okay. All of them are capable of explaining without talking down to people.

Dawkins...not so much. (See: "Here's a Bright idea")

[sudopod]

60. Where did I get that?

Gee, I haven't the foggiest. :3

[Birthmark]

61. You probably jumped off a conclusion...

...in that fog and landed in a pile of crap. I said absolutely nothing that would lead anyone to conclude that I hate Dawkins. Nothing.

I've said plenty to indicate that I *dislike* Dawkins. But that is a very long way from hate. Equating the two is very sloppy on your part.

[sudopod]

62. LOL, internet pedantry.

I know I call people who I merely disklike "pompus windbags" who should "STFU" and "go live on a island somewhere."

I'm sure you added a quiet "bless his heart" before you said it, though. I'd hate to see what you say to people you are really unhappy with.

Shame on him for being angry about child molestation and the suppression of dissent.

[Birthmark]

63. Weird

I had no idea that "pompous windbag", "STFU", and "go live on an island somewhere" were expressions of hatred. The first seems like a personal assessment. The second that of someone who wants the other person to stop talking (reason unspecified), and the third seems pretty nice actually. I lived on an island for 15 years or so. It was very nice.

Then for your big finish you set up a straw man. The thread was about a comment (that it has been claimed he didn't make) Dawkins made that involved him arresting the Pope. It was a preposterous statement, a statement had nothing to do with child molestation. So your straw man stands with his naughty bits exposed.

[sudopod]

64. lulz. nt

[Toasterlad]

52. He Should Definitely Be Shy and Demur and Polite, Like Every Christian I've Ever Met.

Christian are in no way obnoxious. Ever.

[roguevalley]

40. he's more than capable of being a prick and has been. That he's

nice most of the time doesn't mitigate.

[paulsby]

22. south park did a nice slam on dawkins

and they also did a great one on catholic pedophile priests

[Arugula Latte]

24. Send the Pope to Venus.

What a piece of crap he is.

[Birthmark]

25. I second the motion and the assessment

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. Isn't the pope considered a Head of State? Pinochet was no longer Head of State when he was

arrested.

[virgogal]

8. It'll never happen but makes good reading.

[The Straight Story]

9. That guy is an idiot, he is the atheist version of westboro baptist...(nt)

[Tesha]

13. Yes, it's much better if we let the boy-fuckers get away with it.

Again and again and again.

Some folks around here have very odd ideas of justice.

Tesha

[WildEyedLiberal]

23. Yes, because clearly disliking Dawkins = condoning pedophilia

:eyes:

Some folks around here have very odd reading comprehension.

[Tesha]

44. Dawkins is doing something pro-active to advance the issue.

What do *YOU* recommend be done to hold the Church accountable?

Tesha

[tigereye]

66. the church has a lot to answer for for decades of covering up horrible abuses

They have had their heads in the sand for an unconscionable amount of time.


But I'm not sure that a publicity stunt like trying to arrest the Pope and comparing him to Pinochet is the way to go. The members of the church who still see some value in it, have to continue to demand that these cover-ups and moving molesters from parish to parish has to stop now. It's like they haven't learned anything from all the sadness, pain and tragedy they have caused, let alone millions of dollars in law-suits. I would argue that the former priest who works for lawyers of victims has done more good than Dawkins, regardless of how wise he is or how well written his books may be.


What I personally dislike are the constant attacks of intelligentsia on any people of faith and comparing that faith to delusion. It's a poor and offensive argument.

[onager]

26. That's a very invidious comparison...

...but I can use it.

Let's see...

The Pope is the Xian version of John Wayne Gacy, without the crawl-space.

Yep, works for me.

Westboro Baptist Church? Shoot, Dawkins isn't even the atheist version of a whiny Xian troll, let alone WBC.

[sfwriter]

30. No joke, though teh pope would be more like JWG's pimp or something...

Remember, he didn't molest a single child, just aided and abetted the molestation of an unknown number of them.

All you Dawkins haters are right, It is crazy to think we should hold leaders accountable for anything.

I say he should KEEP IT UP. It is one of the few places you will see religious leaders called to account and his is one of the few voices hat is unabashedly critical of religion. So if he is denied a citizens arrest or whatever the Crown civil procedure is, he will have one more great example of the damning deference we pay the cross in the west to the detriment of ethics and logic.

Anyone who makes that point through peaceful and rational means as Dawkins does has my support.

I'll now turn the thread back over to the shock and indignation of the pedophile-coverup apologists.

[tularetom]

10. Dawkins is a fool but anyone who tries to arrest the pope can't be all bad

[Arkana]

14. Um...I have to believe he's not going to do this

because to attempt it would be suicide.

[D23MIURG23]

15. won't work, but its an awesome sentiment.. n/t

[katandmoon]

17. K&R for Richard Dawkins.

[Duke Newcombe]

18. I strangely find myself in agreement with Mr. Dawkins.

Now, excuse me whilst I shower with Comet and steel wool.

[rug]

19. Unintelligent stunt.

[Odin2005]

27. I see this thread has brought out the Dawkins-haters.

[DerekG]

32. Actually, I have a newfound respect for him

If this had any chance of working, he'd be my hero for life.

[sfwriter]

34. No Joke... I wouldn't be so fast to condem a guy for wanting to bring...

a pedofile enabler to justice, but then again I thought we should have pursued all sorts of legal actions since Obama came to office that haven't happened. I'm really out of step with ethics where powerful men are concerned I guess.

Thank God Dawkins is out there holding religion to account. :-)

[CoffeeCat]

31. One thing I don't like about this...

I do applaud anyone who refuses to remain silent for pedophiles and
their fellow enablers.

However, it really should be members of the Catholic Church and the
Church leadership who demands that the Pope and others be accountable.

I would hate this to be a God vs. Atheist situation--where the atheists
are aligned against The Church.

Where in the hell are all of the "faithful" in this horrid situation?

Where are there voices? What is wrong with people?

[Ishoutandscream2]

33. I like Dawkins. I admire his passion

But this is ridiculous.

[struggle4progress]

35. Ricky must be desperate for attention

[spoony]

37. Maybe this is a good way to get rid of all three

The Pope will drop dead laughing and Dawkins and his drunk friend will go to jail.

[ipaint]

41. Wow, I no longer have to go to right wing christian crazy sites to read

ignorant, bitter, uninformed, bigoted garbage on Dawkins. I can read it right here on DU.

[marmar]

42. There are some rabid, mad-dog defenders of Pope Ratz here at DU....

nt

[mr blur]

43. Yes, amazing isn't it?

The man has the nerve to speak out against organised fantasy and expect to get away with it. Good thing the DU Freethinkers are on his case!

[Toasterlad]

54. Christians Only Tolerate Atheists Who Know Their Place.

The ones who are apologetic about not believing this common shared fantasy that has inexplicably maintained a stranglehold on government, justice, and reason itself for two thousand years. People who are unapologetically contemptuous of adult fairy tales are for some reason not viewed as sane and rational, but "intolerant".

How tolerant would we be expected to be of a 35 year old man who believes in Santa Claus despite being told countless times that it's just a children's story?

[progressoid]

45. ....

:evilgrin: Our evil atheist campaign is starting to work! Mwahahahahaha! :evilgrin:

[KathieG]

46. From RichardDawkins.net...

Needless to say, I did NOT say "I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI" or anything so personally grandiloquent. You have to remember that The Sunday Times is a Murdoch newspaper, and that all newspapers follow the odd custom of entrusting headlines to a sub-editor, not the author of the article itself.

What I DID say to Marc Horne when he telephoned me out of the blue, and I repeat it here, is that I am whole-heartedly behind the initiative by Geoffrey Robertson and Mark Stephens to mount a legal challenge to the Pope's proposed visit to Britain. Beyond that, I declined to comment to Marc Horme, other than to refer him to my 'Ratzinger is the Perfect Pope' article here: http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5341

Here is what really happened...

More here (comment #478580)...
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5415

[cal04]

47. thank you for the post

much appreciated

[KathieG]

49. YW! ;-)

[rcrush]

48. Richard Dawkins " I did NOT say "I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI"

oops.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8130925

[mulsh]

51. If he were serious he'd do it and speak after the act. He's just

grandstanding,fortunately he's got alcoholic windbag Christopher Hitchens along for "moral" support on this PR stunt. The pair must be very pleased with the minor amount of attention this stunt is generating for them and the sale of their books. I doubt Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens will ever take any action other than running their mouths off.

I believe God's Rottweiler should be arrested and prosecuted for aiding and abetting child abuse and it should be done very soon. I think Pope Benedict should be arrested in every country he visits but especially those countries with clerical child abuse histories, Ireland, German, Italy, the U.S., Mexico etc. I believe that every pedophile and enabler should be exposed and prosecuted. And the church should be way more contrite and conciliatory with the victims. And they better hope to hell that the damaging actions that nuns perpetrated don't get as much attention as the priests.

Impotent threats from publicity hungry hacks just seems insulting.

[sudopod]

53. PROTIP:

Don't believe everything you read:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8127948&mesg_id=8130295

Status: ( ) Not Told (X) TOLD

[Luminous Animal]

55. Since he never said it, I expect you will do the right thing and apologize

for your misled attack.

[mulsh]

59. after reading the above post, Dawkins site & his WaPo opinion

article I don't think an apology is in order.

However I'll refer you to a group that is trying to do substantial work for the victims of cleric abuse. I've donated to SNAP perhaps you could too.

http://www.snapnetwork.org/

[Azathoth]

57. Dawkins and Hitchens are the last people who should be behind an initiative like this

The Vatican is screaming that this scandal is being manufactured by people with an anti-Catholic agenda. If guys like Dawkins and Hitchens -- who not only have an enormous ax to grind but also make a handsome profit from grinding it -- become the face of the opposition to Benedict, then the Church wins. No objective observer is going to say that a guy like Dawkins, who proudly describes the Catholic Church as an "evil, corrupt, <...> rotten edifice, <...> a profiteering, woman-fearing, guilt-gorging, truth-hating, child-raping institution," is doing this for solely non-bigoted reasons.

[SidDithers]

58. Kick..

so corrections at the bottom of this thread get seen.

Sid

[amborin]

65. K&R sure hope he does; Dawkins'works are the greatest! he's terrified his daugher will fall unde

the evil spell