Florida Senate moves to end separation of church and state

[RockaFowler]

And so it begins . . .

http://www.postonpolitics.com/2010/04/senate-moves-to-end-separation-of-church-and-state/

The separation of church and state has been in Florida’s constitution for more than a century.

But that might this fall under a proposal approved by a Senate committee this morning that could go before voters on the November ballot.

The “Religious Freedom” amendment would delete the 125-year-old provision in the constitution prohibiting state money from being spent directly or indirectly to aid any church, sect or religious denomination. And it would open the door to former Gov. Jeb Bush’s school voucher program allowing public school students to use state money to pay for religious school tuition that the Florida Supreme Court struck down.

[Dappleganger]

1. Time for the onslaught of lawsuits...

to bring those religious bullies back down to size and subject to the Constitution.

[timtom]

14. It's NOT "religious bullies"!!

It's bullies appropriating and misusing religion to their own nefarious ends.

[Dappleganger]

21. As a Christian living here in FL...

these people who push these oppressive laws ARE indeed bullies. If you don't like those facts then you are sticking your head in the sand. As a Christian I deplore their bullying tactics which they have waged against anyone who is different from them for years. I don't know where they think they get off calling themselves 'christians' and acting like this, but I sure as hell will call them out for it. I don't want to be associated with their tactics in the least.

[timtom]

26. "sticking your head in the sand"

I'm afraid you didn't parse my post accurately. So, you came off a bit rude. To one with whom you agree, but don't know you agree. Don't feel bad. Lotsa people let their emotions cloud their discernment.

And, I'm a Christian, as well.

This is about BULLIES appropriating or hi-jacking Christianity.

It's like BULLIES appropriating or hi-jacking the Republican Party (which was once a bit more respectable than it is today).

It's like BULLIES appropriating or hi-jacking patriotism.

[Dappleganger]

27. Wow, sanctimonious much?

Welcome to the iggy list.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Toasterlad]

41. I Love It When Christians Fight. This Must Be What Straight Guys Feel Like Watching a Catfight.

:popcorn:

[timtom]

44. What's your take on the communication process here?

[Toasterlad]

54. I Wouldn't Dream Of Taking Sides.

[timtom]

57. Stout lad.

A wise and prudent decision.

[dionysus]

58. ROFL

:spray:

[sudopod]

65. I lol'd nt

[R Law]

61. The bills are not oppressive; they seek to overturn oppression

Look at the language of the proposed amendment:

"Religious freedom.—There shall be no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting or penalizing the free exercise thereof. Religious freedom shall not justify practices inconsistent with public morals, peace or safety. An individual may not be barred from participating in any public program because that individual has freely chosen to use his or her program benefits at a religious provider."

Which part of that is oppressive? Which part looks like bullying?

The purpose of these bills, which you can research at the links below, is to erase bullying of past generations against certain religious minorities.
http://www.becketfund.org/index.php/article/1278.html
http://www.becketfund.org/index.php/article/1277.html
http://www.blaineamendments.org

Here is a history of the "Blaine Amendment" (which these bills seek to repeal):

It was May 1844 and Philadelphia was burning. It all began when one group staged a demonstration in a neighborhood stronghold of its opponents. A fight broke out. There was a shot, then a riot. Later that night, the demonstrators tried to set fire to a building, only to be repulsed by makeshift militia bent on defending it. Things quickly escalated and within days, several schools, homes, and churches had been burned.

The demonstrators were so-called “Nativist” Protestants. Their opponents were mostly immigrant Irish Catholics. The Nativists were trying to send a message to the Catholics, and they believed that burning schools, homes, and churches was the way to do it. Philadelphia went up in flames to remind the large and growing Catholic population in that great city that they were not welcome. New York, Boston, Cincinnati, and other cities also saw mob violence during this period.

Nowhere were the Nativists more successful than in Massachusetts. By 1854 their anti-Catholic political ideology coalesced as a political party called the Know-Nothings. The Know-Nothings gained full control of both houses of the legislature and the governorship. Their crowning achievement was the Massachusetts “Blaine Amendment”–a state constitutional amendment designed to stifle the development of the Catholic community. Also in 1854, the Know Nothings achieved remarkable political successes that enabled them to dominate congressional politics in Massachusetts, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. By 1860, nearly ten other states had adopted constitutional amendments similar to the one in Massachusetts. Thus began America’s ugly history of legalized anti-Catholic bigotry.

Legalized bigotry did not end with the decline of the Know-Nothing Party. In 1875, Speaker of the House James Blaine, with the support of the political heirs to the Know-Nothings, proposed an amendment to the Federal Constitution similar to the Massachusetts amendment of 1855. Blaine was an opportunist who wanted to capitalize upon widespread bigotry to launch his bid for the White House. The American Protective Association (APA), another explicitly anti-Catholic political organization, later succeeded in advancing Blaine Amendments in several more states. The APA, politically powerful in big cities across the county, brought anti-Catholic
political activity to new lows by requiring that every member swear an oath “at all times to endeavor to place the political positions of this government in the hands of Protestants to the entire exclusion of the Roman Catholics.” The Ku Klux Klan inherited the Nativist throne from the APA. The KKK was rabidly racist, anti-Semitic, and anti-Catholic. It succeeded in solidifying and strengthening the Blaine Amendments around the country, as well as in enacting other nefarious statutes that further marginalized Jews and Catholics. By 1930, nearly forty states had adopted Blaine Amendments.

Throughout the Nativist era, bigotry was public and shocking. Anti-Catholic parlor games such as “Break the Pope’s Neck” and holidays such as “Pope Night” (in which an effigy of the Pope was paraded around city streets in Massachusetts and then burned) became popular.
Harvard’s annual Dudleian Lectures were devoted to “detecting, convicting, and exposing the idolatry, errors, and superstitions of the Romish Church.” Convents were called “Popish brothels” and numerous stories circulated the country about young girls who were captured by priests and forced to become nuns. In cities like New Orleans and Charleston, angry mobs stormed convents and verbally assaulted the nuns who lived there. And other, smaller, religious minorities, such as the fledgling Jewish community, were not spared from Nativist attacks. Leo Frank, a Jew, was hastily convicted in Georgia for killing a young girl who worked in his
factory. When it became clear shortly thereafter that the evidence against Frank was weak at best, the governor commuted his death sentence to life imprisonment. The backlash against the Jewish community was harsh and culminated when an mob broke into Frank’s prison, carried him 175 miles, and cut him to pieces in their own backyards.

Today, the Blaine Amendments continue to impose significant legal barriers to funding for religious groups of all stripes–not just Catholics. The legal implications of the various Blaine Amendments vary by state. The following is a list of state funding programs and subsidies around the country that either have been or likely would be (should the question ever arise) restricted only to the non-religious as a result of Blaine Amendments:

♦ Social welfare programs provided to the needy
♦ Psychological counseling for abused children
♦ Substance abuse programs and drug rehabilitation centers
♦ Land development grants to build for secular purposes
♦ Busing to bring students to private school so that the student need not be subject to danger during a long walk to school
♦ Secular vocational training
♦ Grants to provide secular textbooks and computers to private school students
♦ Educational support for the learning disabled and mentally handicapped
♦ State grants to support private hospitals
♦ Soup kitchens
♦ Orphanages
♦ Artistic and theater subsidies for works that involve religious imagery or thought
♦ Programs to improve handicapped access
♦ Anti-terror security and structural improvement grants
♦ College tuition assistance for the handicapped, poor, and for orphans
♦ Contracts negotiated at arms-length that provide fair terms to both the state and a religious institution

[immoderate]

25. Begs the question. What is "proper" use of religion?

The purpose of religion is to control people. Ignorance, fear, and the misappropriation of social instincts, are its tools. The most benign uses of religion involve bullying.

--imm

[timtom]

45. It appears to be a matter of emphasis, then.

Are we talking about "bullying" or "religion"? It's a matter of which bear one is armed and loaded for.

BTW, "beg the question" has a specific meaning in logic. It is a fallacy of "proving" a statement by a peculiar form of circular definition. The first statement is assumed to be true, and the subsequent statement relies on the first statement as proof.

[immoderate]

51. Well if one assumes that religion is not bullying, then...

...whomever seeks to apply or promulgate that religion in a bullyish way, would, ipso facto, be considered nefarious. A little flip, but I think that qualifies.

The assumption you make is that religion is not bullying. Why? I think they are synonymous. Certainly, Abrahamic religions are bullying. God can't be a bully? :shrug: Requires explanation. QED


--imm

[ladywnch]

63. maybe we should change the word "bullying" to "badgering"

I am CONSTANTLY badgered by religious zelots who feel compelled to 'save me' (and most importantly) whether I want to be saved or not.

[immoderate]

69. That too, but the bullying happens.

You're badgered because you don't buy it. If you did, you'd feel threatened. They pick on your eternal soul, and getcha after you're dead, so you can't fight back.

God, if he exists, is a bully. If he doesn't -- not so much.

--imm

[sudopod]

66. It's kind of like how no true Scottsman wears anything but kilts

if you get my drift...and I don't mean the kind you feel in a kilt. :D

[timtom]

70. Sorry about the delay.

Been real busy.

The assumption I made is that religion is not necessarily bullying. That's my assumption. I tried to clarify a comment by pointing out that it is bullies who co-opt religion for their own purposes. I don't want to accuse the RW of not being Christian, but it is my belief that there are unethical and unprincipled people who have hijacked the faith. On my list of suspects, we find: Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Fred Phelps, any number of televangelists who have sought to create an empire. On the other hand, we have theologians such as Jim Wallis, Shane Claiborne, Gregory Boyd, who are champions of social justice and true separation of church and state (or religion and state).

In all seriousness, do you see the difference?

(As to what God can or cannot be, I don't know enough about ultimate reality to make any statement of certitude.)

[R Law]

59. These bills about PROTECTING religious liberty

These bills are NOT about vouchers and they do NOTHING to violate separation of church and state. They are designed to bring Florida church/state law closer to federal law. If you don't believe me, look at the proposed language for the amended constitution:

"Religious freedom.—There shall be no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting or penalizing the free exercise thereof. Religious freedom shall not justify practices inconsistent with public morals, peace or safety. An individual may not be barred from participating in any public program because that individual has freely chosen to use his or her program benefits at a religious provider."

The first line is almost exactly the same as the First Amendment to the US Constitution!

And these bills are NOT voucher bills. The Florida Constitution, in an entirely different provision that IS NOT AFFECTED AT ALL by these bills, prohibits vouchers. Vouchers are illegal in Florida and will continue to be illegal once these bills pass and the voters vote to amend the constitution.

Rather, the purpose of the bills is to erase language in the constitution that was written in 1885 by anti-Catholic bigots and to replace that language that protects religious freedom for ALL. It is known as a Blaine Amendment. You can find more about it here:
http://www.becketfund.org/index.php/article/1278.html
http://www.becketfund.org/index.php/article/1277.html
http://www.blaineamendments.org/

I am Jewish, an expert on church/state law, and know that these bills are 100% legal and will promote and protect my personal religious freedom as well as yours.

[ixion]

2. crooked bastards all

:argh:

[Tailormyst]

3. ugh-

I can't even find the right words.....

[rfranklin]

4. I propose the Florida Canal...

which will sever the relationship of that area with the United States of America.

[RockaFowler]

5. It's not the entire state

I know I say it at least once a week, but it's time for South Florida to secede. Those religious nuts in the Panhandle are ruining this state. Something has to change here and quick!!

[monmouth]

8. You speak of Scarborough country....n/t

[csziggy]

29. What is funny as hell is that Tallahassee and Leon County are blue

And with urban sprawl, Jefferson and Gadsden are changing over to blue. But east (Madison, Lake City, Jacksonville) and west (the Panhandle) of here are right wing nut territory.

I suspect that one reason - aside from the universities - that Tallahassee is so blue are the state workers who see the politicians up close and personal in all their corrupt glory. And when you guys in South Florida complain about what "Tallahassee" does to the rest of the state, remember that it is the politicians the rest of the state send here, not the people who live here.

[John N Morgan]

35. You don't have to travel very far north from Miami to get back to the "Ol South". Martin County?

But my district that covers much of the county (except the blue areas) is not as red as it is perceived. If I can qualify in the next month, I could take the FL House seat from a fundamentalist and thinly veiled racist William Snyder (just google "William Snyder violent criminal gang")

[dmr]

62. Let us know, John, so we can kick in a donation.

:hi:

[DrDan]

7. get real - there are a lot of here that do not support this

take it somewhere else - it is not funny, nor clever

[Dappleganger]

22. You've got that right!

And I am willing to call them on their shit every day of the week, but we are here to stay.

[monmouth]

6. Oh gawd, please, someone get me outta here! This is why it is so

important for Charlie to go Indy and run on that ticket. Today (unfortunately not for me, I'm not in his district) is the replacement election (Ted Deutsch) for Wexler. We must get rid of these people. Rubio is Jeb's boy, Florida already bad is now on that slippery slope to hell in a handbasket....sigh.

[Ken Burch]

10. Work damn hard for Kendrick Meek in the fall!

He's a good man and can win if the party gets behind him(or at least the activists).

[monmouth]

11. Absolutely. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to be well known in

Palm Beach County but it is early yet I hope. Palm Beach Post is pretty left and I'm sure they will endorse him.

[John N Morgan]

33. There are others too you know. Recurse the 50 state strategy down to Florida House Districts

This county is only red because the Martin County Democrats is a non-functional organization. So, I've struck out on my own. Chris Craft had to drop due to non-support. I got the hint, the cavalry ain't com'in.

[Ken Burch]

43. There are others? who?

It's not like some bland centrist hack would have a chance, if you're suggesting a DLC'er instead.zz

And Kevin Burns is NOT acceptable. You can't be progressive or even "moderate" AND run the Chamber of Commerce. It would be useless nominating another George Smathers-type as a Dem.

[John N Morgan]

48. Ahem...(tag line)

Just say'n in Dist 82, N Palm Beach, Martin, and a little St Lucie, there is me.

Take a look at the site.

John N Morgan

[Ken Burch]

50. Ok. Well, I hadn't heard about you.

And my comments were about the U.S. Senate race.

I'll look at the site and see what you've got.

[RockaFowler]

12. I know Monmouth

I live in St Lucie County and just south is that bastian of Republicanism Martin County. Those people in Stuart are so ass-backwards.

[timtom]

15. Martin County!!!!

Flippin' tell me about it. The bastards waylay the unwary for POSSIBLE minor infractions (license plate not visible, etc.) and ask if they can search the car. The unwary, such as my daughter, in good faith, give permission. ZINGO! Enter the "criminal justice" system.

Martin County is the WORST in SE Florida.

[John N Morgan]

32. Did you know I'm running to change that. Words and attitudes matter.

Pop over to http://www.JohnNMorgan.com and see if I disappoint you.

I'm trying to put together a script for a video about how our conservative district is ruining our recovery. South Florida's economy is based on Agriculture (failing), Construction (failed), Tourism (failing). My point is of the 3 we can only hope to increase tourism in the near term, but who wants to vacation is a red conservative district?

[timtom]

47. I live in Palm Beach County.

I would vote for you anyway, if I lived in Martin County.

Best wishes for your campaign.

(For a second, I thought you were the chap whom the local constabulary tried to harass for holding a campaign sign on the roadside, but that was in Jupiter.}

[John N Morgan]

49. That was me ... Dist 82 includes Jupiter, Tequesta the up through S st lucie

[timtom]

52. So...I was initially right. Absolutely marvelous.

You stood up to the thugs and you prevailed!

Sorry I don't live in your district. Again -- I truly hope you win.

[RockaFowler]

38. Check out some of the stores in Stuart

We went to Nautical But Nice. I used to love that store until I saw the Tea-Bagging information they have posted. Oh yeah and White-Face pics of the President. I walked out of there and refused to spend another dime on that trash of a store. And we spent quite a bit of money there up until I saw this propoganda

[John N Morgan]

39. Martin county, the red scab on the southern Atlantic Florida coast. My home.

[arcane1]

9. Tax money being spent on churches...?

Wouldn't that be godless SOCIALISM???

Who am I kidding? Those fools don't even know what the word means.

[Bluebear]

13. This is a Chritstian natoin and majority rule's!!!1

[Mojeoux]

67. the majority rules that the minorities must be protected...from Bullies! n/t

[Donnachaidh]

16. so now the fundie schools will be welfare recipients too?

Big Gubmint is okay as long as they get their swig at the swag?

[SidDithers]

17. At least until some Madrasah is looking for funding...

then the Christians will have a conniption.

Sid

[miscsoc]

68. the goddamn madrassahs

are likely to get state funding in the u.k. soon.

which is the inevitable result of involving religion in state schooling.

In Scotland where I live the school system in the western areas is already despicably segregated along catholic/protestant lines, it's an unalloyed evil, it's depressing to see people actually going down that road even after there have been so many examples across the world of how it doesn't work; of how it promotes sectarianism and hatred

[xultar]

18. I sy kick the bastards out of the union.

[JerseygirlCT]

19. "Religious Freedom" amendment that takes away

religious freedom.

Right up there with Patriot Act.

[Bitwit1234]

20. A State law does not supersede a Federal Law.

Just let em try. Seems like when every a bushie gets to be a governor of a state from them on it is corruption, crookedness, sneakiness and lying.

[damntexdem]

23. The 14th Amendment will still mean the state is governed by the 1st Amendment.

Then the state will waste a lot of money going to court.

[R Law]

60. And the bills seek to incorporate the 1st Amendment

The purpose of these bills is to make Florida's constitution more like the federal constitution. The proposed language for the amended constitution reads:

"Religious freedom.—There shall be no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting or penalizing the free exercise thereof. Religious freedom shall not justify practices inconsistent with public morals, peace or safety. An individual may not be barred from participating in any public program because that individual has freely chosen to use his or her program benefits at a religious provider."

Which part of that is not consistent with federal law?

Please read up about the bills. They are actually really good for protecting religious freedom and liberty.

http://www.becketfund.org/index.php/article/1278.html
http://www.becketfund.org/index.php/article/1277.html
http://www.blaineamendments.org

[Subdivisions]

24. So with all the rhetoric about Islam after 9/11, Florida wants to become

the Afghanistan under the Taliban, eh?

Man, it's VERY hard not to bash 'em, since that would be against the rules.

[Greybnk48]

28. Because it's worked so well in Northern Ireland and elsewhere???

Smart move guys. Let the lawsuits begin.

[John N Morgan]

31. John Morgan reacts: This is the door for white flight.

Basically, this to map the most segregated hour in American across every hour of the week.

FL Senate to open funding for “white flight” in education

A great clip of MLK is embedded at my sight.

(If anybody wants to hint at how to embed here I'd appreciated it. Apparently, just changing GT/LT signs doesn't work)

[WinkyDink]

34. Yes, this is part and parcel of this Bush son's attempt to destroy public education.

[harun]

36. Enter the tyranny of the majority.

[BeFree]

37. Obama carried Florida?

How in the heck could the people vote for Obama and then turn and vote a majority of pubbies in the legislature?

Oh, yeah, I forgot.. they have them computer vote counters.
Well, that explains that.

[peekaloo]

56. He won by a little over 200,000 votes out of about 8 million cast.

mostly the more populated areas...otherwise this state is as red as a rat's ass.

[1776Forever]

40. Floridians need to wake up! For years now the GOP has dominated Tallahassee!

This is the result! Jeb and all the others in his bunch are only after power! This is just one more nail in the cause.

Latest......

Voucher amendment revived in Fla. Legislature
By BILL KACZOR
Associated Press Writer

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- A constitutional proposal designed to protect religious school vouchers and other state-funded faith-based programs from legal attack is being revived by the Florida Legislature two years after the state Supreme Court took a similar measure off the ballot.

House and Senate committees Tuesday approved identical versions of the proposed state constitutional amendment (HJR 1399, SJR 2550) on straight party-line votes - Republicans in favor and Democrats against. One more committee hearing is set in each chamber before floor votes can be taken.

The proposal would repeal a ban on taxpayer financial aid to churches, sects and other religious institutions similar to provisions in most state constitutions across the nation.

It would go a step farther, though, by adding a new provision prohibiting any other kind of ban on individuals, organizations or other entities "participating in any public program because of religion."

Supporters include former Gov. Jeb Bush's Foundation for Florida's Future, the Florida Catholic Conference and Florida Chamber of Commerce. They argue it would strike a blow for "Religious Freedom," the title of the proposed amendment.

Opponents, such as the American Civil Liberties Union, Florida Education Association, Florida PTA and Anti-Defamation League, contend it would open the public purse to parochial schools and other religious organizations at the expense of public schools. It would include those that discriminate in hiring and espouse bigotry and racism, they said.

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/04/13/1576771/voucher-amendment-revived-in-fla.html#ixzz0l1CiDfvT

[Bluebear]

42. kick

[spanone]

46. let's just go full theocracy....seems to be working well in the mideast

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Dank Nugs]

53. Fed can revoke non-exempt tax status

Personally, if that passed, and I wanted to be a complete douchebag, I'd revoke the non-exemption on taxes for all churches within Florida State.

[Odin2005]

55. is it Christo-Fascism, yet?

[Politicalboi]

64. So this money could go to

"Muslin Schools"? How are they going to live with that? Training young "terharorist" on the states dollar. :sarcasm: