Re: Perry, My dad tells me a coyote poses no threat to a Labrador retriever, you guys agree?

[wndycty]

My 75 year old dad, who knows a thing or two about nature and guns, thinks that Perry's dog was not in any danger.

Also, he claims a laser sighted .380 Ruger is to big of a gun to be running with and way more than you need to kill snakes.

Dog owners, nature experts and gun experts please chime in.

[dmallind]

1. Can only speak to the .380 Ruger

It's not a big gun at all - assuming we are talking about the LCP which is the typical carry gun that fits the bill. Very small and compact weighs about 9oz unloaded.

I'm not much of an animal shooter but the ballistics of the .380 are at the very low edge of what you would normally want in a self defense gun against humans so it's by no means overkill for coyotes that are about half the size. Smaller claibers like .22lr will kill both snakes and coyotes (and people too) but it's not like they are massively lighter so why bother with them?

[guitar man]

2. Well, a .380 isn't exactly a raging powerhouse

It's pretty weak in the grand scheme of things, I had one for a while and wasn't impressed.

[Dappleganger]

28. It's better than nothing.

And that's the appeal.

Yeah, I have one. ;)

[guitar man]

33. true dat

I always got the impression that if I had to use it against a human agressor I'd use more than one shot, probably several. I traded it for a Ruger SP101 .357 mag, but I keep it loaded with .38 special +P loads, which should be plenty.

[Statistical]

39. If something is worth shooting once, it is worth shooting multiple times.

[w8liftinglady]

3. My sister is an epidemiologist with the state of Tx-Rabies is the big threat

If a coyote was in an urban area,then he may have been sick.Contacting animal control would have been appropriate.
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/coyote.html

[Webster Green]

4. I doubt the coyote would be that aggressive towards a large dog and a man.

I lived and worked on a ranch for awhile. We had lambs killed by coyotes, but it was quite a while before I actually caught a glimpse of one of the critters.

They were very careful not to show themselves when we (and our dogs) were around.

On the other hand, when I lived in LA, I saw them crossing Hollywood Blvd. on occasion.

[paulsby]

51. when i play golf in arizona, we see coyotes sleeping on the course

all the time in the morning.

they are extremely shy

granted, these are presumably non-rabid coyotes. and we didn't have any pets with us

these are also country club coyotes, so presumably well. nevermind

[northernlights]

87. a lot depends on circumstances

When I left Massachusetts 7 years ago, they were becoming quite brazen. There were attack on small dogs. There was a coyote that lived on or near the farm where I boarded my horse. He walked right through my horse's pasture gate and stood staring at a group of men standing around talking in the driveway.

Their habitat was being destroyed by McMansionvilles at a stunning rate. They had no place to go.

[kenny blankenship]

5. A western coyote - the true breed - will be maybe a little more than half the weight of a lab

so no threat unless there's more than one coyote. However in the eastern states, coyotes have interbred with red wolves and may be the same size/weight as a full grown lab. In Texas, the coyotes should max out at about 35 pounds. Unless they've started breeding with wolves like they are known to have done in NY and New England states. I have some reason to believe there are coyote-red wolf hybrids in Georgia too, based on the sightings of people I know and trust.

[ozone_man]

77. Red wolves may be coyote/grey wolf hybrids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coywolf

I'm not the expert, but here in Vermont, the coywolves appear to be coyote/gray wolf hybrids from DNA studies, interbreeding as they migrated across Canada and Northern U.S.. They get pretty big and are very adaptable, helping to restore the ecosystem once again. Hunting them only increases their fertility rates. One of nature's success stories.

[slackmaster]

6. Gun expert and nature lover checking in...

It's not normal behavior for a healthy coyote to "menace" a domestic dog that is being walked (or jogged) by a human. Coyotes are naturally very cautious. My stepfather lived in the mountains of eastern San Diego County for much of his youth, way out in the sticks, frequently hunted jackrabbits for food, and he rarely saw one. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that a coyote that approaches a human in broad daylight poses a threat. I have seen them in the wild many times, and on the side of a canyon visible from my back yard, but I've never had one come within handgun range. I think I'd be pretty startled if one came that close to me.

As for the choice of weapon, the .380 caliber Ruger is a pocket pistol. It's certainly a reasonable gun to carry while out jogging, and IMO a little anemic to be relied on for defense against humans.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yZSYZ2Yxiq4/SLjSxwNFCmI/AAAAAAAAAIg/CEQbcVxjhr4/s400/8-16-08+Ruger+LCP+.380+palmed.jpg

[TwilightGardener]

7. I've hiked and camped all over the West--I can hear coyotes, occasionally

glimpse one running away. Never been confronted by one. Now, a couple of my friends have lost baby goats/chickens/ducks to coyotes and foxes, but always at night. Perry's story smells like a steaming pile of Teddy-Roosevelt-legend bullshit.

[aikoaiko]

8. I think your Dad is wrong.

A coyote could easily shred lab. Most labs wouldn't know what to do when attacked by coyotes. Labs are obedient lovers (for the most part). However a healthy, reasonably nonhungry yote would not attack a lab, but under some circumstances might.

.380 ruger lcp is a tiny handgun (albeit JHPs are not good rounds for snakes). Sometimes people confuse .380 with .308 (which is a significantly more powerful round).

[wndycty]

14. LOL it sounds like he was. . .

. . .that is why I asked, not stated, "Dad says its so, so it must be so" LOL

[FightingIrish]

9. I live surrounded by coyotes.

While I have first hand experience that they have claimed a few cats, I have never seen one take on a dog, including our Labrador retriever. They tend to be very wary, especially when not surrounded by a pack. They do keep the vermin population down. We have eighty acres of grapes on our ranch and the coyotes control the biggest pest which is the ground squirrel. They are fascinating creatures to observe. I don't even mind occasionally being awakened from a sound sleep by a chorus of coyotes celebrating or whatever their howling is all about.

[Hekate]

60. They are amazing singers, aren't they? We're close to the foothills, a seasonally dry creek, and

and a 10 acre county "park" that is wonderfully overgrown and full of wildlife. Coyotes? Oh yes. We don't see them very often, and we know better than to leave pets out overnight, but a couple of times a month very late at night I can hear a whole pack of them celebrating.

And this is in a suburb.

Hekate

[sui generis]

10. lab was never in any danger

coyotes are opportunists.

Rule #1 of a feral animal: avoid fighting your prey because injury almost always = inability to hunt = death. So a coyote rarely challenges anything more than half its own size and they tend avoid big domestic dogs altogether.

[Arkansas Granny]

11. One article I read states that the dog was a puppy, but doesn't give his size.

I'd have to wonder if the coyote was rabid. When I was a kid, we could hear coyotes out in the woods near our house, but I never heard a report of one threatening dogs or humans.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/27/AR2010042704373.html

Edit to add link.

[blogslut]

16. I read the same article

And I think the use of the word "puppy" may have been a creative choice.

[Xithras]

29. Coyotes kill puppies on a halfway regular basis.

I've lost two puppies, a cat, and a half dozen chickens to local coyotes in the last few years. They'll attack and eat just about anything that is equal in size to themselves or smaller.

I've taken shots at a few of them too, but haven't managed to hit one yet. They're quick.

[NeedleCast]

12. A coyote would be a threat to a young lab

and possibly an adult lab depending on it's size. The stories I've seen mention that it was a "puppy."

[X_Digger]

13. If it isn't rabid, probably true.

I once had a coyote follow me around the woods near Waxahachie, looked like it was starving, and / or mange infested.

[Hoopla Phil]

15. The coyote was exhibiting one major sign of rabies.

Coyotes are normally very timid and run from people. If however, it is rabid it will not be frightened off - not even from a human yelling at it as described in this incident. Under the circumstance this was a correct action.

Hell, at the University I went to in Corpus we actually had coyotes on campus. Had to "clean up" after them every morning Ha Ha. And yes they were harmless and ran from people. If they had been aggressive toward people there would have been an eradication effort started immediately.

[hobbit709]

27. We only have Goodhair's word for this story.

I doubt it really happened. He's a lying sack of flaming feces about everything else, so why should this be true.

[Hoopla Phil]

48. I'm not speaking to his honesty (or lack of) but to the behavior of the animal as reported.

As reported, it (the coyote) exhibited odd behavior that is indicative of rabies. If said report is honest then the action was not only warranted, but prudent.

[hobbit709]

54. If Perry told me the sun was shining, I would go outside and look.

[Hoopla Phil]

61. Irregardless. The O.P. was regarding the behavior of coyotes. I responded to the O.P.

[Fruittree]

68. That's kind of what I thought -

Also, doesn't it seem a bit strange to carry a gun to kill snakes? Snakes are not about to chase a person so wouldn't it just make more sense to walk away rather than kill something simply because it happens to be there? I can understand protecting your dog but the whole story sounds odd to me...

[Shell Beau]

17. I would think that a full grown lab could handle itself against a coyote.

[petronius]

18. A rabid, sick, pissed-off, or starving coyote could do a lot of damage to a lab or a person

Even if the coyote couldn't kill the lab and walk away unscathed, which it probably couldn't, there are real risks...

[Warpy]

19. Supposedly, it was a lab puppy

so yes, there was a threat. However, if Perry had waved his arms and yelled "SCRAM!" the coyote would likely have fled. If not, then he could have shot.

Of course, that wouldn't have left him feeling quite so macho.

And yes, men with little dingalings need to run with cannons like a laser sighted Ruger.

[Statistical]

41. cannons? really.

Also according to his report he did yell at it and it didn't run.

While he may be lying it certainly describes behavior of a rabid animal.

[dmallind]

50. That "cannon" is about 4" long and weighs just a bit over half a pound. NT

[blogslut]

20. I think the whole story is a load of horse droppings

This is Rick Perry's rental house:



I post this, not to imply the improbability that the area where Gov. Goodhair currently resides is devoid of critters but to illustrate that he lives in a gated subdivision. The kind of place where you don't just shoot an animal dead and leave it there to rot. If he did indeed, dispatch a fearsome coyote, he had a responsibility to notify animal control. But he didn't and he also failed to file some sort of report to whatever law enforcement authorities police that subdivision called "Estates Above Lost Creek".

I think he is full of poo.

[hootinholler]

88. He may also be in violation of hunting laws.

In Md. there is a coyote season. If one did this they could be unlicensed or out of season and explaining themselves to DNR agents.

-Hoot

[blogslut]

89. A rotting caracass is all kinds of bad

It attracts wild and domesticated animals and if that coyote was rabid...

If Goodhair actually killed this animal, and I have many doubts that he did, he's admitted he left it to rot. The man was raised by a ranching family and he should be ashamed to tell such a story.

[Cleita]

21. We have about three labs in my neighborhood and I have seen them

interact with coyotes. It seems the coyotes know they can't bring them down so they move on. So, your dad seems to be right. I don't know anything about guns to kill animals with but I do know that most wildlife, even rattle snakes and black widow spiders prefer to be left alone, so if you give them a wide berth they will go about their business and leave you alone.

[Statistical]

22. .380 auto is a "big gun"? Not really.

.380 auto is very small round and the Ruger LCP is very small firearm designed for conceal carry.
9mm is generally considered the "minimum" for self defense and the .380 is even smaller (essentially a short 9mm).

It's stopping power could be best described as "marginal".



Despite the lackluster stopping power I carry one everyday SPECIFICALLY because it is not a "big gun". Big guns tend to get left at home where they do no good. As they saying goes "rather have a .380 auto in my pocket than a .45(big gun) on the nightstand".

As far as Coyotes. Have never even seen one so I got no idea.

[safeinOhio]

26. 380 is a belly gun.

Even with a laser, I wouldn't want to shoot anything more than 40 ft away. For dogs and coyotes a 22 is more accurate at that distance and more practical for snakes.
Been around coyotes for a while. A warning shot would have put it on the run and out of the area for weeks. Any coyote shot at and missed will unlikely ever be seen again. I didn't see anything about him having the carcass picked up by animal control to be tested for rabies. More likely distemper this time of year.

[Statistical]

31. Yeah that is why I carry it.

Most likely they only thing I would end up shooting would be a 2 legged predator. Distance would be close <20ft. I don't even practice at the range at anything beyond 20ft. No real point.

Only downside of LCP is the tiny size means you really need to practice to get tight grouping and fast followup.

[safeinOhio]

35. I really laughed when he said

he carries it for snakes. Unless he meant the 2 legged kind.

[Dappleganger]

36. And practice is rough...

at least for me, even a hundred rounds is quite tiring w/that little piece.

[Statistical]

38. Yeah it certainly isn't the "funnest" firearm to practice with.

I usually limit myself to hundred rounds anymore both because of ammo price and because more than than and the LCP will beat you up. :)

[Dappleganger]

40. Glad it's not just me...

I have nerve damage and can only handle so much practice as a it is. We also have the springfield 9MM 3" which is a real pleasure to shoot, and when I just want to target shoot (FUN) it's the Browning Buckmark . The price of ammo is always a consideration, no doubt about it!

[Statistical]

42. Totally offtopic but nice choice in firearms.

My wife owns a Springfield 9mm and I use Ruger MK II for target practice (very similar to Buckmark).

Great minds and all that...

[Dappleganger]

44. Thanks!

We've made it a family affair to shoot together (well, most of us) and each of those guns do well with both righties and lefties (I'm a righty but shoot lefty and the youngest ds is a lefty).

The MK II was in the final running but the handle on the Buckmark sold me. The MK II is definitely easier to take apart and clean, however.

That's great your wife shoots too--the more, the better.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. A full grown lab has nothing to fear from a coyote, and there is NEVER

a reason to kill snakes. To be a threat to YOU, it would be too close for you to have time to draw a pistol and shoot it - it will strike before you shoot. You are better off jumping away from it. If it is far enough away that it is not a threat, there is no reason to shoot it.

[TwilightGardener]

25. Thanks--that's even more questionable to me than the coyote shooting.

Why carry a gun to kill snakes while jogging? Why would a snake interfere with running? Fucking go AROUND it, asshole, instead of stopping to blow it to smithereens.

[Dappleganger]

32. He probably didn't just carry it for snakes.

He's in TX, it's natural to want to be armed and the LCP is small enough to make it easier to do. He's the governor of a state who's highly controversial, he probably has his share of haters too.

Jesus, even Eleanor Roosevelt carried when she was out alone (much to the chagrin of her staff).

[TwilightGardener]

43. This really isn't a gun issue. It's an issue of this swaggering asshole

making up a story to build his pre-Presidential-run image. Even if it's true, who the fuck cares if he shot at a coyote? Why bring it up? To let everyone know how much he lurves carrying a gun, and that he's a good shot, and that he's into killin' critters--he a manly man!!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

75. No, it's not natural to want to be armed - the vast, overwhelming majority

of people you meet on a daily basis are not armed.

And if he says it is for snakes, he is a fucking LIAR - as I pointed out above, it would be useless in a snake encounter.

He just wants to push a phony macho image. Instead, he looks like a scared little girl.

[Dappleganger]

79. Then you don't know Texans very well, do you?

[sybylla]

24. Not unless it's a puppy

IIRC, that's what at least one version of Perry's story said.

But, coyotes are very shy creatures. One that was healthy would be more afraid of the human than hungry for the puppy.

[girl gone mad]

57. "coyotes are very shy creatures"

Not always. We've had kids in the neighborhood nipped at by coyotes in the daytime. They get used to being around people and domesticated animals and become less nervous about interacting with us. Like wolves, they learn the habits of their prey.

I take the threat coyotes pose to my pets seriously, though shooting a coyote would be a last resort.

[sybylla]

74. Yeah, I understand those "city-bred" coyotes would act differently

But I wasn't under the impression this was in or near a city. Poor assumption on my part.

[Dappleganger]

30. We have a yellow lab...

if a coyote or other similar-sized wild animal which may or may not carry rabies came around, I'd believe it to be a dangerous situation and take action.

Also, I own a .380 Ruger LCP and if anyone thinks that it is too big to run with they have no fucking idea what they're talking about. Police run with that stuck in their pocket at the gym constantly around here.

Too big to kill snakes? Not TX snakes, that's for sure.

BTW, I have a FL CCW and the LCP is my everyday carry about 70% of the time because it's easiest to conceal and very lightweight.

[Llewlladdwr]

34. Who really cares?

Coyotes are both common and a nuisance, at least where I am in south Texas.

[Dappleganger]

37. People don't get that on this board.

IMO it's a lot easier to debate his neanderthal policies than why he carries teeny gun when he goes out for a run with the dog.

[slackmaster]

45. Yes, they're getting to be a nuisance here in Southern California too

They're not White Fang.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jgraz]

47. His story's total bullshit. No grown man with a dog needs to feel threatened by a coyote.

Another fraidy-cat with a gun. How unusual. :eyes:

[Pavulon]

49. They killed my cats on a farm regular basis, so I regularly shot them with a 22-250

cats kept mice out of places they did not need to be. coyotes did not. They did kill upland game birds and are a pest and quite legal to kill. Shooting them is better than poisoning them in my mind.

Unlike a .380 pistol, which is small and has a short range, a 22-250 rifle can reach out 400 yards or more. Why make life difficult.

[Critters2]

67. Actually, Coyotes will kill and eat mice. nt

[Pavulon]

69. They never seemed to eat the mice in the barns.

only my cats.

[RaleighNCDUer]

78. But they're not too good at climbing into the barn rafters. nt

[Boudica the Lyoness]

85. I just wonder why they killed your cats and not mine

We have a cattle ranch where their natural prey is abundant. We have cats well over 10 years old who hunt gophers for hours in the meadows. Maybe your cats were running away. Do you spay and neuter? Some times tomcats chase the other cats off or run off them selves looking for females.

[Vinca]

52. If the coyote is rabid it might be.

In any case, Perry probably gets off killing innocent animals with his hollow point bullets.

[tammywammy]

53. I despise Gov Goodhair

And I can't even get the least bit outraged about this. :shrug:

[TexasObserver]

55. a .380 is a very small pistol

I think the whole story is bullshit, including the shooting of the coyote. He probably hit the coyote with his vehicle, and pretended he shot it. The dog part was the cover story to justify "shooting" the coyote.

The shooting part doesn't ring true. The .380 isn't very accurate at over 20-30 feet, and even with a coyote not likely to take the animal down. If you shoot a coyote with one, he'd run off and you'd not even know you hit him unless he yelped. He might die eventually, but he would likely get far from the point of the shooting, if shot once with a .380, unless hit in the heart or the brain.

[girl gone mad]

56. A coyote killed a deer near my property this week.

It was a lone coyote. I had seen it chasing the doe a few hours earlier.

I've lost wild cats to coyotes and I don't doubt that a labrador could fall prey to one. They are very effective predators.

[Hekate]

58. Suburban coyotes regularly prey on household pets out at night. They aren't fluffy bunnies, you know

As for Perry's coyote, all I can say is it depends on the size/age of his dog, and the aggressiveness of the wild critter. If it just gave you a look and slunk off, I would not consider it a threat. If the coyote was aggressive, it might be rabid -- and that would be a very bad thing.

As for us, when hubby sees the occasional daytime coyote at our neighborhood wildish county park, he's pretty inclined to simply admire it and keep walking.

Hekate

[ShortnFiery]

63. +1

Where was the rest of the pack is what I want to know? :thumbsup:

[Scout]

59. i've been out of it ... what happened? link please? n/t

[RamboLiberal]

66. Here you go

AUSTIN, Texas — Pistol-packing Texas Gov. Rick Perry has a message for wily coyotes out there: Don't mess with my dog.

Perry told The Associated Press on Tuesday he needed just one shot from the laser-sighted pistol he sometimes carries while jogging to take down a coyote that menaced his puppy during a February run near Austin.

Perry said he will carry his .380 Ruger – loaded with hollow-point bullets – when jogging on trails because he is afraid of snakes. He'd also seen coyotes in the undeveloped area.

When one came out of the brush toward his daughter's Labrador retriever, Perry charged.

"Don't attack my dog or you might get shot ... if you're a coyote," he said Tuesday.

Perry, a Republican running for a third full term against Democrat Bill White, is living in a private house in a hilly area southwest of downtown Austin while the Governor's Mansion is being repaired after a 2008 fire. A concealed handgun permit holder, Perry carries the pistol in a belt.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/27/rick-perry-shoots-and-kil_n_554397.html

Thread I started on this story last night got moved to the Gungeon. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x313735

[Scout]

72. thanks very much! n/t

[RagAss]

62. I wouldn't take a .380 to kill a roach.

[DailyGrind51]

64. A lab could take any coyote! Now, a timber wolf is another matter.

[old mark]

65. Not much on coyotes, but the Ruger .380 is a pocket pistol, would be a good

choice for jogging or walking in the country. I saw several this afternoon-they are pretty good guns, like most Ruger products, and not very expensive.
I think they are the first small pocket auto pistols Ruger ever made. I'm not a fan of the lasers , kind of defeats the purpose of a small pistol whose whole reason is to slip into your pocket, and if you can't use the sights, learn how.
I heard about coyotes eating small dogs and other pets pretty regularly when I lived n California, and they are even hunted here in PA now as pests. Seems a shame to me - I like canines and won't shoot one for sport.

m

[RamboLiberal]

70. Wild - we just had someone shoot a coyote in city of Pittsburgh

And I was going to post our biggest threat is rabid racoons. Mount Washington is hill that sits across the river from the city proper & is where the famous views of the city are shot from.


A Pittsburgh man said he shot and killed a coyote in one of the city's neighborhoods after spotting it behind his house.

Joe Martinelli, of Greenleaf Street, said the animal was "stalking" dogs recently in the Mt. Washington area and he was concerned for the safety of children -- including his 18-month-old daughter who plays in their back yard.

"It's been running around the neighborhood for about a month now, trying to go after people's little dogs. There's been two cats missing. I don't know if it's rabid or if it's just one of the ones that's been coming around. People claim that it's a wild dog, but it's definitely a coyote," Martinelli said.

"There was a coyote sitting on the hillside right here behind my fence. I didn't know if it was going to try to attack my dog or mate with my dog, so I ran downstairs and got my shotgun," Martinelli said.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/23289210/detail.html

[gleaner]

71. In California ...

Coyotes are mostly a danger to cats and other smaller pets, but there was a period of time in the 80s when they were starving and a horse carrying a person was attacked. They are wild animals, normally shy and attempt to avoid contact with people. But if any creature gets hungry enough it will do what it has to do to keep from starving.

[warrior1]

73. He had to use 380

His penis is invisible.

[LanternWaste]

76. All things being equal, I agree...

All things being equal, I agree. A fully grown coyote is invariably going to be on the losing end of the deal if confronting a fully grown lab.

As for guns, don't know, don't want to know and hopefully will never know. :P

[SteppingRazor]

80. Yes, the coyote is a threat.

When I lived in California, a lone coyote used to come strolling through the neighborhood, getting into scrapes with any stray dog it would find. Then it would run away into the nearby hills -- where another coyote was waiting. They're actually pretty smart when it comes to stuff like that.

In general, a single coyote would probably get it's butt handed to it in a fight with a large dog like a Lab -- but it's not a sure thing, and the Lab would certainly have to go a vet if it survived the encounter.

As for the .380 Ruger, I don't see what's wrong with carrying one if you're going to carry a gun. It's actually a very tiny piece, so I don't know how your pop can claim that it's too big of a gun. Maybe he's confusing it with similar calibers in Magnum? A .380 is, after all, a different matter than a .357 Magnum.

[NNN0LHI]

81. Here is the problem. There is no such thing as a coyote around here any more

They are all coyote/dog mixes now. And I have seen some very very large coyote/dog hybrids around here.

They look large enough to easily kill a domesticated lab if they were hungry and/or had puppies to feed.

I think they are called "coydogs" if you want to research this phenomenon.

Don

[underseasurveyor]

82. One coyote is little threat to a large dog however

coyotes rarely run alone, normaly other members of their pack are close by. Having lived in the mountains of Colorado for many years I've seen some of their tricks for coyotes are not dumb. One trick they'll use is if there is a male dog around a female coyote will go out and intice the male dog deeper into the woods where other members of the pack lay in wait and then pounce on the poor unsuspecting dog. Sometimes they'll use the guise of 'play' to suck a dog deeper in the woods and then there are those poor dogs that will just chase anything.

I have known many a three legged dog due to coyote attacks and those were the lucky ones.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

83. We own a cattle ranch

and coyotes are very cowedly. They don't bother the calves or our pets. But there's lots of their natural pray here (rodents) because we don't kill 'vermin' on our spread...including snakes.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

84. I have to add something

I have taken my dogs on walks through the sage brush and had young coyotes (that years pups) tag along right behind the dogs. And no, they were not stalking my dogs, lol. I guess coyote pups are just curious. I know they love to play.

[Fla_Democrat]

86. Didn't this already get sent to the Gun forum?

Oh, yea it did..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x313735

Mind if I just catch this post there, later? I'm running a bit late for an appointment. :evilgrin: