How I was stopped by a cop using 'Lawful Contact', and how you could be too...

[AnArmyVeteran]

Any cop can pull over anyone at any time for 'suspicion' of anything. The way Arizona state officials have described it, 'lawful contact' is when a cop approaches you if your license is expired, you are speeding, one of your turn signals isn't working or any other manufactured excuse. But that opens the door empowering a cop to look for reasons to trump up a 'lawful contact' saying he saw the driver making a lane change or swerving ever so slightly.

True Story: I was driving on a divided highway with two lanes going west. It was the middle of the night with no other traffic on the highway. I was driving in the middle of the left lane, but when I saw a cop approaching me from behind with his lights on I slowed down to almost a stop and moved to the right lane so he could pass by and not be an obstacle in his way. But then he moved to the right lane and slowed down directly behind me, so I slowly pulled off onto the side of the road and stopped. When I asked him why he stopped me he said I was swerving. I told him I just changed lanes to let him have an easy access so he could pass me. But he wrote me a ticket anyway and I had to pay a $75 fine.

I wasn't swerving, just moving out of the officer's way, but his intent was to give me a ticket and he did. And he dreamed up a 'lawful contact' in order to stop me.

Arizona cops could do this all day long. They have a lot of tricks they could use to create a 'lawful contact' circumstance to pull you over and demand your identity. My experience happened in a remote area in west Texas, but cops in Arizona could use the identical tactics to justify pulling over anyone.

[Liberal_in_LA]

damn!

[no limit]

1. You got a ticket for swerving? Is that even possible?

[AnArmyVeteran]

2. I didn't even swerve. I just changed lanes.

[zipplewrath]

3. Illegal lane change

I got a ticket for an "illegal lane change". It had rained heavily and a puddle appeared in front of my car (the truck in front of me had obscured it). It was a deep puddle, as I could tell by the way the truck splashed it about. So I quickly changed lanes to avoid it. The cop wrote me up for illegal lane change because I didn't signal.

Yes, it is possible.

And to the OP's point, ask any cop. They can legally stop you at anytime. We have empowered them with so many vauge infractions that they can be "suspicious" about just about anything.

[rocktivity]

8. I know someone who a got ticket for not signaling a lane change

when he moved over to let a couple cop cars go screaming by!

:crazy:

[NJmaverick]

4. "Lawful contact" is a meaningless term with no definition

it means whatever the cop wants it to mean.

[Purveyor]

5. Ask most any truthful cop and they will admit that all they have to do is follow you for 1/2 a block

and they WILL find a legit reason to stop you (even if they have to make it up).

[Echo In Light]

9. Old tactic; tailgate to make the driver nervous

[wolfgangmo]

22. Next time it happens...

Keep driving normally, following all traffic laws, but at the same time grab your phone, dial 911 and ask for help. Say that there is a suspicious car tailgaiting you, stunt driving and generally driving unsafely and that you are fearful for your life. Be sure to mention anything they are doing wrong like shining their brights, swearving, speading up and "charging" your vehicle, etc... If appropriate mention that you think you see the outline of a shotgun in their car (if they have one and you can see it in the dash mounted gun bracket). Be sure to emphasize that you are not sure about what you see because of their bright lights and tailgating etc.

Repeat often that you fear for your life.

The 911 operator will contact the vehicles in the area and document the incident and the cop will usually, wisely, back off.

I they don't remember the 2 rules of dealing with cops. Shut up. Lawyer up.


Signed,

A former officer.

[MiniMe]

34. As long as it isn't illegal to use a cell phone while driving

If it is, you just gave them a reason to pull you over.

[BuelahWitch]

6. A cop followed my Mom and I one night in the early '80s

when we were coming home from work around 2:30 am. He said Mom "made a real wide turn back there" when we were getting off the main street to the road that led to the mobile home park we were living in. Then he asked why were were out so late at night (mind you, my mother was in her 50s at the time, even though I was not yet 20). She told him we were coming home from work, which was true and showed him her Sperry Univac badge. He didn't ticket us but my mother was kind of upset that this guy was harassing her for a "wide turn" late at night with no traffic.

[azmouse]

7. If that's the case, Americans have to worry in every state.

It's not just a unique problem to AZ, is it?

[AnArmyVeteran]

13. No, but in Arizona you can end up in jail if you are unable to proof your identiy...

Where in most states you can give the officer your name and they can quickly match it to your car or your address. They don't go further than that to try to determine if you are in the country illegally.

[azmouse]

17. And it doesn't go any further here.

The law doesn't take effect for 90 days and may never take effect.

You've shown over and over that you hate Arizona. Many of us hate this law and are fighting it.

[grasswire]

10. me too, and it was frightening

It was after midnight in Herndon Virginia, driving through an industrial park on the way to home about a mile away. No traffic. The police officer made a U turn to follow me, and pulled me over after a short distance.

Swerving, she said.

This young woman was determined to give me a ticket. I was with my BF (who had had a couple of beers throughout the evening) and my niece (not a drinker). I told her that I had had a glass of wine four hours previously. The truth. We looked respectable, it was a nice clean car.

She had me out of the car, walking the line, walking it again, performing like a trained dog. Then she gave me the breathalizer. When it didn't show any alcohol, she called for backup and used THEIR breathalizer. Still negative.

No ticket. Just a LOT of intimidation.

If I had been alone, I fear for what might have happened. At one time when I was walking the line, she pulled her gun on me when I wiped my nose on my sleeve.

Just fyi, we were of different ethnicities.

[blueamy66]

11. You're kidding, right?

Cause the owner of my company just stated that cops don't ever "just pull someone over". :crazy:

Yep, I love living in AZ and working for an Indian immigrant who constantly votes Republican and rants daily at lunch. Just shoot me.

[AnArmyVeteran]

15. Get a book of practical jokes and torment him.

I saw a prank where a piece of shrimp was put inside of the phone handle. It was one of those phones where you could unscrew the top and see the speaker. The shrimp was put behind the speaker and the stench lasted for months. No amount of lysol or other sprays could ever take away the smell. The user began to think it was his breath that stunk. Of course, I had nothing to do with it.

[blueamy66]

28. Okay, I may try this....

just to make myself think about it and just smile...

But come on....I really don't want to hear that the only reason Obama didn't build a fence between AZ and Mexico is because us Democrats would get upset and not vote for him.

I asked why, if Brewer was such a good Republican, why isn't she building that fence?

Ugh. I need a Xanax.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. You paid a $75 ticket for nothing?

I would have gone to court on that one.

[AnArmyVeteran]

21. If I wrote the entire story I would still be writing. I did go to court.

Here's the rest of the story. I was on my way back to Fort Bliss, where I was stationed. After the cop wrote me a ticket he demanded that he search my vehicle. There was no probable cause but I was just 21 so I did what he told me to do. I opened my trunk and in it were 10 bottles of booze I had bought for my dad. They were in there for a few months and I was going to give them to my dad when I saw him. They were all bought legally in Juarez where you could buy brand name booze for 1/5th the price. When the officer saw the booze he arrested me. I hadn't been drinking but I was young and he knew he could take advantage of the situation. He told me to follow him back to Sierra Blanca, a small town a few miles away. Once there he put me in the cell with five Hispanics who were probably illegal aliens. None of them could speak English. It was dark and cold in that cell and I was afraid for my life all night.

About nine the next morning I was let out of the cell and brought to a big empty courtroom. Then a 'judge' showed up wearing jeans and a work shirt. Hell, for all I knew he probably wasn't even a judge. He fined me all the money I had on me, or $75 bucks. Try fighting a small town where the cop was probably related to the judge, with no resources and in the middle of nowhere. I was just glad to get the hell out of that lousy town full of redneck, inbred hicks who operated a legal speed trap. At the time there were many places in Texas where cities by highways became legal bandits, pulling people over for going 1 mph over the speed limit. Some small towns became rich until the state began cracking down on them.

BTW, I am very good at fighting injustice. I've been to small claims court seven times and won all seven cases. One of the last ones was against Allstate insurance and I won several thousand. The last one was against an auto dealer, which hired a big shot lawyer from Houston. I bet he made $300-$500 a hour because at every break in the proceedings he was getting calls or making calls about other ongoing cases he was involved in. I overheard him trying to tell his fellow lawyers how things aren't going as smoothly as he thought they would. I could also tell by listening he should have been at other ongoing trials. So I not only cost the auto dealership money, I probably cost that lawyer a great deal of money too.

I demanded a jury trial and I got to go through the entire jury process of selecting the jury and the presentation of evidence. I went toe to toe with that high paid lawyer dressed in a $2,500 suit and I beat him and the auto dealership. It turned out to be the longest small claims court trial in the history of that court. I'm sure it cost that auto dealership 20 times in legal fees than it would have cost if they just were honest and gave me what I asked for to being with.

So yes, I do fight when I know I'm right. Being screwed that one time taught me a lot and I got a lot wiser after being taken for a ride by a legal system out of Deliverance.

[Dappleganger]

24. Ugh, you let him search your car?

Please don't ever do that again. Every unjustified search granted gives LEO's more stupid courage to trample on our constitutional rights.

For anyone else, next time they ask you get out and lock the doors. If they want to search ask them why and to get a supervisor. No search w/out a supervisor present, period.

BTW, I've taken seminars on this and this is the consensus from many constitutional/2nd Amendment attorneys.

[blueamy66]

30. But won't they just get a drug dog

and make sure he/she alerts?

[AnArmyVeteran]

33. Cops know the law, therefore they know how to get around the law...

"The young man knows the rules, but the old man (cops too!) knows the exceptions" (Oliver Wendell Holmes)

[AnArmyVeteran]

32. THAT WAS 1970!!! I was 21!!!

That was a long time ago. It didn't happen last week! I would never allow a cop to do anything without a warrant today. I don't know if you read the part about me being 21 and new to the army. And without understanding the circumstances it's easy to tell someone to tell a cop to say "No!". But when faced with two armed thugs on a dark night beside a deserted highway a lot of people will do what they otherwise might not do to stay alive.

The search & seizure laws in 1970 were not as stringent as they are today. In the early 70s officers had a lot more latitude than they do now. I was 21 at the time and I don't even remember giving them permission to inspect my car. While I was talking to one cop the other was already opening my car trunk. I suppose I could have tried to forcibly stop two officers armed with guns and been beat up or shot. When you are in the control of two armed thugs it is very threatening. I thought they were going to let me go until the last moment when they decided to arrest me. I'm sure they had intended to arrest me before they even pulled me over. It was a shake down from the very start.

Have you ever heard of small town 'justice'? There isn't much you can do to fight against a town full of relatives all perpetrating a scam. Because I was in west Texas I could have been subject to any number of immigration laws which would have empowered them to search my vehicle to look for illegal aliens.

A good site for laws that go back to the date I was apprehended is here: http://www.apsu.edu/oconnort/3020/3020lect02a.htm. I like one of the opening lines in the link above, "The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions" (Oliver Wendell Holmes)

At the time I had just entered the service and as most young people I was unaware of all the rights I know I have now. And like I said, when you are facing two armed thugs in a totally dark night you fear for your life. From that day forward, I refused to stop for any officer on the side of a road at night. If I see a police officer's car lights go on I slow down and keep driving until I can pull into a public place where a lot of people can serve as witnesses to the event. I don't trust cops. Most are good, but there are too many bad ones to put your trust, or your life, in their hands.

[AnArmyVeteran]

36. BTW, fyi... the incident never was recorded on my record. They just pocketed my wallet's contents...

It was just a shake down operation that a lot of Texas and rural police departments were doing back then. The state of Texas finally cracked down on them. But anyone can still become a deputy in Texas. Their only requirement is your IQ must equal the caliber of your gun. That's it! Even so, a lot of them don't make it.

[G_j]

14. I've been pulled over for 'paint chipping on your license plate'

among other ridiculous reasons over the years.

[Echo In Light]

20. Burnt out bulb intended to illuminate rear license plate is another Fascist Favorite

[G_j]

25. been pulled over for that too. even got a ticket for it

I went to court to contest it, and the judge angrily dismissed it, saying there was no such law.


the real problem has usually been 'driving while being a hippie'...

[Echo In Light]

29. As was I, once, & told the small town cop his job was "irrelevant" after he gave an ultimatum:

Allow him to search my car (I was giving him zero 'respect' so he likely realized I had nothing to hide...which I didn't) ...or, no search plus a ticket over the burnt out plate bulb. On a whim I told him to knock himself out searching my car. He lifted the floor mats in the front, checked the ashtray, and then left. Fuckin douche bag didn't like my questions/opinions at all. Funny thing was, some yrs later I encountered the same cop on graduation day at this small liberal arts college I worked at for about ten yrs. He had his Dope Canine w/him, which was comical since several of our maintenance crew were all blazed up that day since grad day we pretty much just stood around eating grilled food & getting grilled lol

[Better Today]

16. I have a simlar story, but it didn't end at all the same.

I was in straddling the middle lane, out in the country, divided interstate highway, about 3:30 am. I did pull into the right lane as soon as he pulled in behind me from a side gravel area. Got pulled over for straddling the highway.
I explained that yes, I knew I was running the center of this side of the highway, and I was doing it because of concerns of deer and other critters crossing the road at night, giving me more time to respond whether a critter approached from right or left. I commented that this was in fact what Defensive Driving courses taught for deserted roads, at night, and pointed out that even before he pulled into the road fully, I was back in a proper lane even though he hadn't at that time put any lights on.

Anyway, he commended me for being alert and aware and sent me on my way, giving me a police escort at about 95mph to the end of his territory, about 90 miles. He was State Police.

There are many kinds of people, there are many kinds of cops. Some will do as you have had done, others won't. I think this law sucks, I think it should be reversed, I think we should all boycott Arizona till it does. I just thought your experience needed a little balance with my experience.

[pinniped]

18. The fact is, police can pull anyone over for any reason, not just in AZ.

The bag of tricks is used nationwide.

[ShortnFiery]

19. It happened to me in 1989. Just make sure you're in population before you stop. eom

[Odin2005]

23. The pigs here in Fargo have a quota and so constantly make up shit. Bastards.

[arthritisR_US]

26. I would have fought the ticket. n/t

[AnArmyVeteran]

37. Sometimes losing is winning...

I had to be back at my army base. I didn't have the luxury or the resources to stay in that hillbilly town for a couple of weeks. I didn't have the money to hire an attorney. Given the same circumstances I faced, I doubt if you would have fought the ticket.

BTW, like I posted later in this thread nothing ever turned up on my driving record. They fined me what I had in my wallet and that was their intent from the start.

Like I also said in previous posts, in the 70s there were small towns throughout Texas shaking down motorists until the state of Texas finally cracked down on them. There were many reports on the Houston media to avoid certain towns because it got that bad. They pointed out exact places where cops would pull you over.

I was 600 miles from my hometown and 150 miles from my army base. I had a commitment to be back or be AWOL. I didn't want to 'pull a Bush'.

[arthritisR_US]

39. given all you've said it was a good decision on your part then. Your post

has been very enlightening for me, thanks :-)

[The Straight Story]

27. I got pulled over in KS for "going out of my lane" but after talking to cop he gave me real reason

I told him I used to be a cop and knew he was just BS'ing me and asked him the real reason (I was the only car on the road and he had been following me for many miles).

"You are from Ohio in a rental car, we get a lot of drugs running through here from Ohio."

He did not give me a ticket and just sent me on my way.

[starroute]

31. Cop pulled my husband over once for swerving slightly

I'm a little fuzzy on the details at this point, but as I recall it was the Fourth of July and they were on the lookout for drunk drivers. I think my husband swerved or braked to avoid a raccoon that was ambling across the road and a cop pulled us over. Talked to my husband long enough to determine he wasn't drunk and let us go on our merry way.

Lucky for us, the cops were looking for actual drunks and not out to harass anybody. But yes, they can pull you over just for that slight wobble.

And though nobody's mentioned it, there are all sorts of reasons they can find to check out people on the street as well. Stand in one place too long and they come over to see if you're guilty of vagrancy. Gather in a small group in a bad neighborhood and they check to see if you're doing a drug deal. Some of this is legitimate policing, but when you add this new law on top of it, it becomes a license to ask almost anybody for their papers.

[elleng]

35. Yes, they can/could.

You could have (and imo should have) challenged the ticket in court, and thats what everyone in such situations in AZ should do.

[cbdo2007]

38. My wife got pulled over for not stopping at a stop sign when she obviously....

stopped at it.

She told this to the cop who looked around and in her vehicle, and he said that he knows, but they were aware of some drug activity in the area so they are stopping everyone for "not stopping" at the stop sign even if they stop at it.

Nothing you can really do. If you raise a ruckus about it they'll just arrest you for raising a ruckus.