"N.J. school to test for weekend drinking "

[FourScore]

"Teens who drink alcohol could be caught three days later under a high school's new testing policy for students. The test, which will be given randomly to students at Pequannock Township High School, can detect whether alcohol was consumed up to 80 hours earlier.

Pequannock Superintendent Larrie Reynolds said the policy approved last week should be a deterrent to students who feel peer pressure to drink.

Under the program, students who test positive will not be kicked off teams or barred from extracurricular activities, Reynolds said. Instead, they will receive counseling — and their parents will be notified..."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070130/ap_on_re_us/teen_drinking

[Botany]

1. Not that I condone it but anybody who does this "testing" better not

... park their car anywhere around the school and their name better not be in the
book too.

[malaise]

2. This is an invasion of parental rights

They are out of their minds.
Sp.

[Hosnon]

4. I thought the same thing. Don't most statutes allow parents to give a little bit

of alcohol to their children (say, to protect Dad from charges on the Father-Son camping trip where he gives Jr. a sip of beer)?

And what about the Catholic kids that drink wine on Sunday?

[MADem]

15. What Catholic kids drink wine on Sunday???

I think you're thinking of some other religion.

[Hosnon]

17. Oh...the Communion is not wine? nt.

[Reverend_Smitty]

20. well it is "technically" the blood of Christ...

Is the test sophisticated enough to differentiate? :P

[Hosnon]

23. Hehe...crazy cannibals.

For the record, most of my family is Catholic and "crazy cannibals" is a term I use often to poke at them. So yes, I do feel I "can" say it:)

[walldude]

58. Only the priest drinks the wine...

everyone else gets the wafer...

[fishwax]

64. that's not true in most diocese

though it might be true in some. I grew up in a Diocese where only the priest drank wine, but they changed (I think in the late 80s). I remember it being a big deal when they did. Most of the parishes I've been to in other places, though, offered everyone the wine.

[walldude]

68. I see, I haven't been to Church since

the 70's, so I missed the change. If they had given me wine when I was a kid they might have been able to keep me ;)

[fishwax]

70. yeah, it's been a while for me too

If they had given me wine when I was a kid they might have been able to keep me ;)
Maybe declining numbers was the reason behind our diocese's change. Wasn't enough to keep me though :evilgrin:

[MADem]

61. The parishioners get a wafer that tastes like Elmer's Glue

The priest glugs away at the chalice, they don't hand it round like in some outfits....

[fishwax]

66. most catholic churches I've been to everyone drinks the wine

The diocese where I grew up (the diocese of cheyenne) didn't give the wine to everyone at one time, but they changed in the late 80s. All the other parishes I went to as a kid (visiting family, etc.) and all those I've been to since offer the wine to everyone, as far as I can remember.

[MADem]

71. I've been in hundreds of catholic churches, and I have never once seen that.

From Spain to Portugal to Italy to France to South America, Mexico, and coast-to-coast in the USA, never, not once.

[fishwax]

74. I've been in quite a few too, and it's been that way in all of them since the 80s

When I moved to Wyoming as a kid, I thought our parish was weird because they didn't do it. I suppose it's good to know we weren't so unusual after all, though I haven't seen it since.

[fishwax]

78. incidentally, it was the second Vatican Council which extended the wine to laity

Though communion under both kinds is encouraged, not imposed--the laity is under no obligation, and whether or not to offer it is left to the bishop's discretion, so it may vary by diocese.

[MADem]

84. Fascinating, I must have hit the no wine bishiops, but the Pope is in that club too

They weren't handing out any Mogen David at Christmas eve midnight mass in Rome either!!!!

[fishwax]

90. yeah, i think it's more common in the U.S. than elsewhere, but

They weren't handing out any Mogen David at Christmas eve midnight mass in Rome either!!!!
that sounds like quite an experience even so :)

[MADem]

91. I went four or five times, all with JP2

The experience varies, the better the seating. In the back near the door? Not so hot. You can't see shit and it's cold, unless you can park your ass near one of the RAI TV lights--and then, you're hot as a baaaastid.

Up front in the VIP section? Way better. The quality of seat improves, too, the closer you get to the throne, as it were.

But no wine unless you were up on the altar!

[alfredo]

48. Episcopals (English Catholic). At least when I would go there

for a bit of dress up and piety they served wine. We always had a very nice white wine. Shep M was stingy with the blood of Christ. You had to drink fast to get anything. You see, he always had to finish what was left of the bottle after the last person came forward for communion. Shep loved the fruit of the vine. By the third service that Sunday, he was filled with the spirit.

I could never see Shep as a Baptist. He wasn't a Welsh's Grape juice kind of guy.



PS Louisville Ky people, I am talking about Church of the Advent down by Cave Hill Cemetery and Phoenix Hill. Walking distant to Lynn's Paradise Cafe. How many churches have a bowling alley in its basement? They also had a pocket billiard table down there.

[JVS]

81. Lutheran kids drink wine on Sunday

Sacrament of both kinds (blood + body) since the early 1500's

[ourbluenation]

5. they can sign a waiver if they dont want to participate - I'm all for it...

mom of a teenager

[Maddy McCall]

10. Where does it say that in that article?

This is:

1) An invasion of parental rights, especially for parents who actually parent.

2) An excuse to give detached parents even more room to detach and let the government do the parenting for them.

I'm the mom of a teenager, too. I'll be damned before any government entity tests my son's pee or blood without my consent.

If another article says that parents can sign a waiver, I'd love to read it.

[malaise]

13. My parents gave us a glass of wine with Sunday

dinner from we became teens. I prefer a culture that teaches children how to drink socially with parents present than weekend binges with friends.

This is damn madness and an invasion of parental rights.
reword.

[ourbluenation]

25. Our small town has lost 5 teens to drinking related incidents in 3 years. Something has to change.

My son was a typical high school teen...good student, good liberal (in our town that's typical)good athlete, and typical drinking on the weekends. Now I suppose I could lock him up 24/7 so he couldn't go out and drink. That's just not cery realistic. So, you tell him what's appropriate, to never ever drink and drive, etc...and cross your fingers and hope he makes it home ok. If you catch him drinking he gets grounded. But the reality is you can't follow him around all the time. It's like being held hostage my friend and IT SUCKS.

He made it thru high school ok and without the obvious addictions of some of his friends, one of whom died on Christmas eve becasue he was so wasted he didn't know the house was on fire, but who the hell knows, really. I took a tour of a high school that has a random drug test policy...the principal is a family friend. Their drug and alcohol problems were drastically reduced after the program was initiated. If you think it's an infringement of your parental rights, you just sign a waiver to not participate. problem solved. but I for one would have loved if this was in our high school. some kids may be alive if it was.

flame away.

[Book Lover]

28. I agree that something must change. How about we try something other than the prohibitionist model?

In my family, we were given wine to drink with dinner. Daddy's wine was watered down (the Italian way), and ours more so. As we grew older, we got less water. There was no great mystery to it, and no need to get shitfaced to find out what that was all about: we already knew what tipsy felt like. Not to say that no one who grew up this way ever drank irresponsibly, but I think this is a better way than the "Never, ever, ever, ever drink a dram of alcohol, or else you will die a horrible premature death!!!" method.

[ourbluenation]

35. Well, my husband doesn't drink and I rarely do so those warm and fuzzy family drinking scenarios

are nice but they don't apply to everyone.

[Book Lover]

36. And so there are no other ways to teach kids how to drink responsibly?

The way I shared and this school district's way are the only two possible in this wide world of ours? Sorry - I thought I'd credit you with some imagination. I can see that was wrong.

[ourbluenation]

37. Of course there are - but if they don't work, then what?

walk a mile in my shoes for a sec....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=85917&mesg_id=85917

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. How about taking kids' licenses away for drinking?

Public intoxication or DUIs could be penalized by losing their license if they are under age 21. Kids hate losing the ability to drive.

[MADem]

63. Wow, that's a concept!! And the car keys, too!!! And then there's that quaint phrase

"You're grounded!!!"

[LeftyMom]

57. I grew up getting sips of beer from my Dad from early childhood and wine with dinner sometimes

The church started hooking me up with a thimbleful of the body of Christ (which tastes suspiciously like moderately priced red wine) when I was nine or so.

I drink every now and then, a beer or two every couple of months at most, because I just don't care for the feeling all that much.

So if a sip of Hamms- or whatever other crap he could afford back then in the lean years- while watching football with my Dad didn't make a raging alcoholic out of me, considering I definitely have a genetic tendency toward alcoholism as there's hardly anybody on my mother's side of the family who isn't a drunk or in recovery, I suspect it's probably innocuous for most people.

[PassingFair]

39. Here's a flame.

Folks with your attitude don't DESERVE FREEDOM.

You CAN'T HANDLE IT.

If you need to drug/alcohol test
your kid, why don't
you have an independent testing firm test YOUR kid.

Wholesale testing of our blood and tissue is an OUTRAGE.
It is bad enough that we are tested for EMPLOYMENT now,
even for desk jobs. That you would willingly subject your
children to it....I shudder.

If a kid is showing signs of intoxication at school,of course they
should call the parents.

Should they should be doing full cavity
searches at the glee club assemblies. You never know - they COULD have weapons or DRUGS!

"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."
Benjamin Franklin

Why bother letting your kid out of the house, or
getting out of BED in the morning, if you live in
such fear?

[ourbluenation]

52. do you have teenagers?

[PassingFair]

56. Yes I do. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. It is not the school's job to do this

I read your other thread and while I feel for you, this is just not a role that schools should play. It is a huge invasion of privacy. It also infringes on religious freedom, since many religions serve wine as part of their Sunday services.

[ourbluenation]

49. then sign the freaking waiver. n/t

[MADem]

62. If a community wants to spend their money on that, FINE. I take issue with FEDERAL dollars going to

that sort of thing, when there are kids a town over from me in unsafe, poorly heated schools. And those kids are lucky compared to some kids in other parts of the country. Let's get every school to a basic level, where the kids have structurally sound schools, that aren't at risk for stray gunfire, books that aren't decades old, teachers that are minimally certified, so that kids can learn.

If a town has a need for that sort of thing, let the citizens of the town vote it in, and pay for it with their local taxes--you know this is a bigass government boondoggle program, that is making a bunch of program overseers rich, and isn't helping Johnny or Janey learn to read.

[Nay]

29. Amen! I also gave our son a glass of watered wine with dinner on

Sundays, when he became 16 or so. He never cared for it, and the whole alcohol teenage thing never got started with him. The school should mind its own effing business.

[malaise]

31. That's the point

It never became something that any of us craved. It's none of their fugging business.
Sp.

[ourbluenation]

33. wow. some people are so insensitive around here. it takes a village.

and for the 3rd time - if it's none of anyone's business what you want for your kid sign a freaking waiver but do not attempt to cut off this resource to parents who are struggling with this issue, big fucking time. who do you think you are?

[PassingFair]

40. Um, people who were raised to believe we lived in a country

...where we were GUARANTEED basic rights.

Like protection from UNREASONABLE, WARRANT-LESS searches!

[alarimer]

42. It does not take a fucking village

It takes parents who parent, not leave it up to the damn government to do it for them. We cannot expect the schools to do everything. And they have no right to do this in the first place. But what the hell, schools are only teaching kids to be mindless corporate drones anyway who pee in a cup just to get a fucking job. Our freedoms are being steadily eroded, all in the name of "safety" or "national security". This testing will do nothing to actually stop the problem. How about education about the risks of alcohol abuse? How about visits to jails filled with DUI offenders? Or emergency rooms where they can actually see the gore? That's bound to be more effective than prohibition ever was>

[ourbluenation]

53. wow - that was kinda freepery. n/t

[MADem]

69. I think it takes both, myself. And it starts with parents. I don't think the damned village should

be shaking down the citizenry with warrantless "just in case" searches. The village is supposted to NURTURE, not do cavity checks, or breathalyzers. This essentially is a way for parents to not have to be the bad guys--let the school do it instead.

[MADem]

67. Again, if you as a community want this, vote it in at the local level.

It is obscene that this is a FEDERAL program. I hope it's overturned on that level.

[lectrobyte]

3. They have a test for that? For gods sake, don't tell corporate America about it

or my one remaining refuge from reality will be closed for remodeling.

[JVS]

82. who are these douchebag scientists who devekop this shit?

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. Patently illegal

Court rulings have consistently held that students can not be punished by schools for actions taken when not under the school's authority. The school can check to see if a student is on the property while intoxicated, and can do locker checks to look for alcohol, but that is the extent of it.

[Conan_The_Barbarian]

59. Aye

The ACLU guide to student's rights made that very clear, I really think every public highschool student government should own a copy. I found a dusty old copy laying around when I was a freshman in college, my highschool Vice Principal pulled a ton of crap. Most of it was minor but some of the rules that seemed odd and unreasonable were indeed considered unreasonable.

[Ignacio Upton]

7. I'm surprised they haven't hacked into their Facebook and MySpace accounts

A lot of high school and college students are dumb enough to post pics of themselves getting drunk or getting high right in plain sight.

Still...this is the kind of thing that parents should worry about, unless the students are drinking on school property or at one of their events.

[LizW]

72. They have.

The school police officers in my son's high school get on MySpace and Facebook all the time. It's a major resource for them to find out what kids are up to.

[billybob537]

8. We should insist

Bush takes the test.

[no_hypocrisy]

9. Also shortsided. A lot of mouthwashes or breath freshners like

Sweet Breath give readings of alcohol use. What will the school authorities do when the kids claim it's mouthwash?

[Maddy McCall]

11. And people ask me why I homeschool.

[wavesofeuphoria]

12. hmmm .. what's next?

testing to see if they had sex?
testing to see if they had trans fats??

[MADem]

14. Here comes "the Nyquil Defense"

I dunno. Why don't they try TEACHING the kids for a change, rather than trying to be substitute parents?

In America, we have schools that are crumbling, unsafe, with insufficient heat, kids who are using torn books that have been taped together and are over two decades old; teachers bring in paper, pencils and so forth because the district cannot pay....and yet, with all of those problems:

The test costs will be paid with federal grants, Reynolds said.

Where the hell are our priorities??? I think we ought to worry about the basics, first--like the three R's, before we start passing out federal dough for this kind of crap. It's whoop-de-doo for
Pequannock Township, but to hell with Newark. Just not right....

[Reverend_Smitty]

18. exactly instead of using money to hire more teachers and fix crumbling schools

we are wasting federal dollars to unconstitutionally drug test upper middle class kids to keep tabs on them over the weekend. It's ridiculous!

[MADem]

87. And you KNOW those tax dollars are going to a GOP firm--say, wonder if one of the Bush brothers is

invested in this farce? I'd like to see some intrepid Jimmy Olson "follow the money" and find out "cui bono?"

[Nay]

30. Ahh, but they ARE teaching -- teaching all the little lemmings to give

up every right they ever even thought they had to fascists like this Bush administration. When they shuffle off to work, they won't blink an eye to iris scans, drug tests, anal probes, you name it.

[MADem]

65. More like teaching them to con their parents into signing that waiver

(end result--only the 'good' kids get tested) or teaching them to forge that waiver signature themselves!

It's completely absurd, first, and it's disgraceful how parents can give up their responisiblity and authority so easily--no wonder so many rolled over when Bushco stole the election--it's becoming par for the course....

[dysfunctional press]

16. what about sunday communion?

i started taking it at age 15, iirc...

[The Straight Story]

19. Good. Employers should start testing us all tomorrow and firing drinkers

like they do to smokers. Help keep them health care costs down associated with drinking.

Us smokers always said when they got done with us those who drink are the next target.....

:evilgrin:

[PA Democrat]

21. I would take them to court if they tried this on my kids.

It's an invasion of privacy pure and simple, and the test is inaccurate to boot. S

"School officials acknowledge the test is sensitive, and false positive readings can be the result of using products containing ethanol, including mouthwash and Balsamic vinegar."

[ContraBass Black]

54. Balsamic vinegar?

I had a salad for lunch! Honest!

[devilgrrl]

22. What an incredible waste of tax payers money! Puh-leeze!

:nuke:

[JacksonWest]

24. Seems like an invasion of individual rights- first and foremost.

I don't see this one standing up to strict scrutiny. What's the compelling purpose for the state to violate the 4th amendment rights of the students, is it narrowly tailored, and is there a less restrictive way to accomplish this?

Almost all drug tests done by schools have been for participation in extracurricular activities. Since going to school is a fundamental right-it differentiates from sports or band-or whatever.

Even thought they aren't punishing the kids who drink(that would really cross the line of constitutionality-suspending or expelling s student for something that they did outside of school) this rule seems to be outside the scope of the schools authority. It won't stand up under the current Supreme Court-if they follow precedent that they have set. That's my prediction, at least.

[Virginia Dare]

26. When does the White House start?...n/t

[Quantess]

27. Accuracy?

Nobody has asked this yet.
I thought that alcohol leaves the body after 12 hours.

Oh sure, the after-effects, AKA, hangover might stay longer, but alcohol is gone after 12 hours, no matter how much you drank. That's what I've always heard.

[onethatcares]

32. can we test all our representatives in every branch of government?

we hired them, we can fire them. They allow the rules to be written for us, but seem to have no care of following the same.

[SoCalDem]

34. Honest.. My Mom made a HarveyWallbanger cake for Dad's birthday n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. I Think This Is A Great Idea And About Time This Was Taken More Seriously.

I'm sure this will probably catch on to other schools and only good can come from it if it does.

I'm convinced some lives could possibly be saved by this and even more improved. Alcohol consumption in H.S. never leads to anything good.

[PassingFair]

41. Damn Straight.

:sarcasm:

[JerseygirlCT]

43. I agree. Especially b/c the results of a positive seem to be

counseling and bringing the parents in, not punishment.

Alcohol is illegal for HS aged kids. They do not have the judgement at that age to use it responsibly, and they should not be drinking, period.

If they are, their parents, and other responsible adults in their lives, need to know, and need to be shown how to help their kids.

Lives are truly at stake here.

[kiahzero]

75. So you're for teaching kids that the Fourth Amendment is just pretty words? (n/t)

[MADem]

85. Fine, let towns and cities that want it pay for it. Don't take it out of the federal

"schools" budget because parents can't control their teens.

[tyedyeto]

ooops dupe

[tyedyeto]

46. Same as drug testing for employment purposes

Who gives a fuck if you are drinking or high at this particular moment in time. I want to know what you've been doing for the past week or two. It doesn't matter if it's on your day off, but 'you've touched' those deadly drugs, so we can't hire you, or you're fired, if you work in a job with random drug testing.

[Katherine Brengle]

77. I wouldn't hire someone if I knew they did drugs or drank to excess --

I don't respect that kind of activity and am not required to by law. Schools certainly shouldn't have to, as those children are not even of legal age to drink alcohol.

[JohnLocke]

47. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects...

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Even under New Jersey v. T. L. O. this isn't permissible!

[AzDar]

50. 'Nuff said. n/t

[PassingFair]

55. Oh, that QUAINT old thing!

That is SO pre-911.


:sarcasm:

[BoneDaddy]

51. Totally draconian

This is a travesty. Schools are not police. I fully support schools having "no tolerance" regarding violence and drugs on campus, that is their right, but they have no business "policing" youth this way. If you want to create a level of even more distrust among our youth put this kind of bullshit in place.

[LeftyMom]

60. Let's try getting the education part up to par first before schools take on more responsibility.

"Under the program, students who test positive will not be kicked off teams or barred from extracurricular activities, Reynolds said."

It's entirely possible to get through school without drinking. I didn't drink at all during my high school years because my mother was dry at the time and it would have worried her enough that it simply wasn't worth it.

The only peer pressure I ever dealt with went like this:

"Beer?"

"No thanks."

and if you can't manage that, drinking is the least of your problems. If you get the full-on afterschool pressure treatment, that's life's way of telling you to get friends that don't suck.

[Quantess]

73. Do the tests even work?!

I thought that Alcohol leaves the body in 12 hours. Here's my first question:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x83765#84110

I had understood that urine tests, as of the early 2000s, are only sensitive to detecting alcohol 12 hours after consumption.
But then I see this graph, which indicates over 12 hours to get zero Blood Alcohol Content (BAC).
http://www.selfcounseling.com/help/alcohol/hourstozerobac.html

Someone please explain how the testing works.

[KamaAina]

89. As I understand it, it tests for a metabolite of alcohol

rather than BAC.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070130/ap_on_re_us/teen_drinking_2

At least one other New Jersey high school, in Middletown, employs the EtG test, which screens for ethyl glucuronide, a substance produced by the body when it metabolizes alcohol.

This is the same principle that allows the fascists to detect pot use after weeks. Hence, the real-life horror flick "I Know What You Did Last Weekend".

Come to think of it, many parolees are required to avoid alcohol as a condition of parole. Wouldn't it suck if high school students were subjected to a test more draconian than that given to parolees?! :eyes:

[Swamp Rat]

76. Unconstitutional and utterly un-American

like the un-American assholes who support it.

Go start your own fascist nation, you pricks!

[Katherine Brengle]

79. What a bunch of crap.

I'm sorry, but drug/alcohol testing is not, imo, on par with shit like wiretapping. For one, those being tested are well aware, and the behavior being checked for is already illegal - there is no right to participating in illegal activities in the Constitution last time I checked.

I really don't know why liberals get all hot and bothered to protect this kind of behavior - it's such a ridiculous waste of energy.

[Swamp Rat]

80. You got "hot and bothered" enough to post "what a bunch of crap."

:rofl: Aw, Katherine Brengle! Don't let "hot and bothered" liberals bother you! :rofl:

"there is no right to participating in illegal activities in the Constitution last time I checked." - Straw Man. :D

[MADem]

86. Ahhh, and you're in favor of the nanny state? A bunch of crap, indeed.

Just because one thing isn't as bad as another, you're not worried about the slippery slope?

Say, wiretapping isn't as bad as MURDER, let's not worry about wiretapping and concentrate on murder, shall we? Please...

One sign of an intelligent individual is the ability to deal with more than one issue at a time. I say we can concern ourselves with unauthorized search and seizure, wiretapping, murder AND the war in Iraq, to say nothing of stem cell research, jobs, minimum wage, racism, justice for all, all sorts of important issues.

[KenHodson]

83. 80 hours! Bullshit! and yes both Cath and Luth kids drink wine

in these here parts.

Back to my point: Most traces of alcohol exit your system in typically 8 hours, not 80. I would guess that some children with incredibly slow metabolisms (but these are growing kids) might retain a quantity of chemical compounds derived from alcohol consumption for twice that time or even three times that. But 80 hours is impossible.
Hangovers with long durations are not because of alcohol products remaining in your receptors but because of the release of those compounds. Oh and you are hungover from being dehydrated to boot.

[Tari]

88. Will the school administrators, teachers, counselors also be tested?

Or the school board members? Janitors?

How about the parents who think this is such a good idea?

Geez. Big brother is having an orgasm.