Against Illegal Immigration: Xenophobia or Safeguarding American Workers?

[Lord Byron]

I recently stumbled on a post about Lou Dobbs' constant focus on the immigration issue. I would like to get an idea of whether this is a dogmatic issue here, since "xenophobia" seems to be thrown around.

Jim Webb is against guest worker programs. Is this a sensible position? Why or why not?

Should we curtail immigration? Why or why not?

Should we build a greater wall on the US-Mexico border to prevent an influx of Mexican workers seeking employment in the US? Why or why not?

[Lord Byron]

1. Wow the silence

[jilln]

2. If it were really about safeguarding American jobs

these same people would be shrieking about outsourcing. So sending an American's job to another country, evading taxes in other countries, etc. is the American way and Progress and Capitalism but someone else coming here to take one of the menial jobs left is illegal and Must Be Stopped.

[Lord Byron]

4. Who isn't shrieking about outsourcing?

With all due respect, the conservatives who are shrieking about immigration often do shriek about outsourcing. Even Duncan Hunter does.

[jilln]

5. Have they ever done anything about it?

[Lord Byron]

7. Are you asking me to defend them?

I'd rather not. But generally, they don't vote for free trade agreements, and they speak out against them.

What has Bill Clinton done? Or Gore?

[GirlinContempt]

31. Who's 'they'?

[jilln]

40. Dont know why you're so defensive.

I haven't seen either party do much to reign in corporations or outsourcing. Maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention. Since you said "the conservatives who are shrieking about immigration often do shriek about outsourcing,' I thought you might know if they had DONE anything about it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. ..

:popcorn:

[gatorboy]

20. Pass me some of that.

I love LB's threads. He's like the progressive fascist. :P

[Lord Byron]

21. Hahahaha

Thanks I guess gatorboy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. I learned my lesson last spring

I stay out of the immigration threads. Well, most of the time I stay out of them. Then other times they are just too tempting. LOL

[Selatius]

6. Unfortunately, there is overlap with xenophobia and the desire to maintain American workers.

For example, just because there are people on the right who disagree with Bush doesn't mean that a person on the left necessarily agrees with the far right person on all the issues. The only issue they agree on is Bush. That is all.

There is a similar situation with the issue of illegal immigration. There's evidence that a glut of illegal immigration in any market tends to depress the wages of service sector/unskilled workers. In this case, the only ones winning are employers. That alone would seem to warrant the idea of securing the ports, borders, airports, etc.

However, that reasoning should not be equated to those being against immigration because they have a bigotry of foreigners. That's an entirely different motivation.

[Nay]

35. Good luck, Selatius. Soon enough, ppl will be coming out of the

woodwork here to condemn anyone who wants to stop illegal immigration as racists. I also stay out of these threads now.

[devilgrrl]

8. Illegal Immigration = driving down the cost of labor

Protecting American workers? :spray: Please. :eyes:

[porphyrian]

9. Illegal immigration would end tomorrow if we fined the hell out of those that hire them.

If someone were really worried about safeguarding American workers, they would be more focused on preventing corporate abuse of labor, the environment and our government than on immigrants, legal or illegal.

[Lord Byron]

10. Well it's already illegal to hire illegal immigrants

It's also easy to conceal.

[porphyrian]

14. It's not that well concealed, just paid off.

Ask anyone in construction. If someone bothered to enforce the law in a way that cost businesses more than the money they make hiring illegal labor, it would end tomorrow.

[Lord Byron]

23. Same goal. Different execution n/t

[AZBlue]

49. Many don't even bother to conceal it - why should they?

The law isn't enforced and they know nothing will come of it. The raids that took place recently at Swift didn't even affect the company - no one at Swift was charge with so much as a parking violation.

[xchrom]

11. i have no notion that if any illegal immigrants were suddenly

stopped at the border -- and there were no more illegal immigrants -- that the american worker would suddenly accrue a great big economic benefit.

and do i think that the people who propose such a thing that REALLY believe that it would? no.

just like i don't believe in falwell's or robertsons' gay hate. -- it's about power.

[jannyk]

12. I believe it's just the rallying issue

du jour for the Repubs. It's sort of reploaced 'Gay Marriage' as their 'core, rally around us' issue. Yes, there are Dems that support the Repub stance, but there are Dems that support their stance on Gay Marriage too.

It's an issue that has been blown out of all proportion to strengtnen Repub support. Whip the sheeple into a frightened, frothing at the mouth frenzy with 'fringe' groups that have no clout. Create the 'enemy' and then propose a platform to 'defeat' them.

Remember when 'Gay Marriage' was going to destroy 'Family Values' and harm straight marriages (?) That worked didn't it?

Well, now 'wetbacks' are taking all the jobs - yeah that's the ticket, that'll work. They can't fight back can they?

Now, outsourcing is a whole 'nuther ballgame, but the lasr I heard they weren't outsourcing fruit picking, dishwashing, or housecleaning jobs

[EFerrari]

17. You got it, jannyk.

This is just one more bigoted Republican appeal to the worst in Americans.

Let's go get those al Qaida nannies and gardeners! They're brown and stuff! :eyes:

/spelling

[sendero]

22. That's exactly right..

... because if they wanted to stop it, they could bust 2-3 high profile companies and the jobs would dry up in a hurry.

[Hosnon]

13. Not mutually exclusive. And, I suspect that many of those that are strongly

for border security are also xenophobic.

I am for an impossibly strong border. NO ONE should be able to get across illegally. I am also for a very permissive immigration policy that doesn't take years to complete. Just as the various groups that immigrated to the U.S. centuries ago did not destroy this country, neither will Hispanics.

Agri-business will have to suffer (and, by extension, the consumer) but that is the price to be paid (literally).

[treestar]

15. Nobody ever notices that worldwide we are competing with

non-American labor anyway. If you let them hire the Indians here at least they are here making their purchases and that could spur parts of our economy. If they hire them over there, we don't have even that.

Notice the capitalist has no restrictions. He/she can build the factory wherever he/she pleases. Yet the workers are restricted to the countries they were born in. It is not hard to see who gets the advantage there.

Economically speaking, it only hurts the job market in the long run. It is not as if there is a static number of jobs and that the current populations also always happens to fit them. You'd think the way some people look at the economy, that whenever an American graduates, another American in that exact job just happens to retire. And the list of jobs never changes. The number of jobs just happens to miraculously increase when the population increases or decrease when the population does not grow, all in perfect line with whatever jobs are needed to be filled. So there are no new jobs ever (there were just as many computer programmers in the 1920s, apparently) and no job ever becomes obsolete.

[Bridget Burke]

16. Why not return to the Immigration laws of the old days?

My grandparents came over from Ireland & passed a health exam. "Welcome to the USA!" So they worked hard, had a family & contributed.

Some say the USA still needs labor. (The Social Security chicken-littles say that lower birth rates will not produce enough workers to support everyone's benefits.) But immigrating legally is extremely difficult & expensive. Why not LET the people in after checking their background & health? Without fearing La Migra, they will not fear to ask for better pay. They can join Unions; all workers will benefit from cooperation. But the corporations who want low-paid, fearful peons won't be happy. Most "guest worker" programs are just polite ways to supply cheap labor.

The Wall is an incredible boondoggle. Expensive, inefficient & unwanted by most Border folks.

The Anti-Immigration gang displays extreme xenophobia, wanting to quash most immigration, legal or not.

[Raydawg1234]

25. Hello, there would be too many damn people. Look at the problems China and India

are having with unchecked population growth.

[Bridget Burke]

37. Gosh, I had no idea that China & India had so many immigrants!

In fact, I know quite a few people who came from those countries.

[piedmont]

44. Population growth = births - deaths + immigration - emigration

China and India's growth resulted from their birth rate. Ours is a result of immigration. The net effect is the same-- a population that will out-strip its resource base. No population can grow indefinitely, and population crash (mass death) is frequently the outcome of growing past carrying capacity.

[Bridget Burke]

45. I'll let you know when Houston starts looking like Mumbai....

We've still got lots of room down here.

But we DO have quite a few people from India, Pakistan, etc. (Plus temples & mosques.) They aren't very white.... (The people, that is.)

Find me some numbers that are NOT from one of the (more or less polite) vendors of xenophobia. (Not from the Center for Immigration Studies or their ilk.)

[piedmont]

48. Lots of "room" maybe. Enough oil, fertile cropland, potable water, to keep it going? Probably not

So your response to the threat of overshooting carrying capacity is "I won't worry about it until we reach the population density of the most populous places on earth." I don't think that's a wise attitude, given that this country is critically dependent on energy from a nonrenewable resource (oil and natural gas) in producing the food required to feed itself, and that this resource will run out in the next 30 years.


"They aren't very white.... (The people, that is.)"

Who said anything at all about anyone being white?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. The illegal immigrants aren't doing anything...

my ancestors didn't do three hundred years ago.

So it'd be rathe hypocritical of me to complain about them.

[pampango]

43. I agree with you position illegal immigration, I think, but pointing

out that some activity existed three hundred years ago, does not necessarily justify its existence today. Some of my ancestors owned slaves, but I feel free to condemn slavery. Some of them came here as indentured servants, but I do not propose the return of indentured servitude. The genocide committed against Native Americans in the 1700's and 1800's does not justify genocide that is committed in current times.

I support illegal immigrants because they are here to work and achieve a better life for themselves and their families back home. But I acknowledge that any country has the right to control immigration. The Australians have no obligation to permit me to move to Australia, live and work there, just because most Australians are descendants form British immigrants (and prisoners.)

[Deja Q]

19. American workers. It's pretty straightforward stuff.

The corporate folks and Republicans who claim we need to level the playing field are doing jack splat. So the only thing left is to put in some protectionism.

And don't forget, try being an American and emigrating to those countries. Good luck. (Won't work though...)

The whole picture transcends quite a lot...

Good for Jim Webb. Now let's hear some DUers call him a freeper too. :eyes:

[Raydawg1234]

24. Safegaurding American workers.

anybody who says otherwise is playing the race card.

[ConcentrationCramp]

26. Its a matter of degree LB

Yes, technically "illegal" workers are being used as 'scabs' and they are hurting American workers in some sectors (but only in the most metaphorical sense)

BUT blaming the Mexican immigrants who are essentially trying to achieve the American Dream of providing a better life for their children is ridiculous on two fronts.

First is the suggestion that it is their choice. Do you think they would choose all the hardship involved in working illicitly in this country if they had any other reasonable *choices*? If anyone does they seriously misunderstand the severity of the Mexican situation.

For starters NAFTA has allowed multi-national corporation to gobble up Mexican farm land with unconscionable ease. Yes, there was illegal immigration before NAFTA but allowing capital to freely cross the border but not labor is an act of economic violence on the Mexican people.

Secondly, Chinese workers and Indian workers and others are equally 'scabs' in that they are doing all of the labor involved in producing this country's textile consumer goods as what amounts to slave labor. Think about it. If Wal-Mart wasn't holding the inflation of consumer goods steady and allowed prices to rise in line with the absurdly inflated cost of services in this country, could we survive it? Of course not, we would have economic meltdown.

So, in that sense South and Central America are equally victims of America as is all of the Global South.

Want to "solve" illegal immigration. Step one is acknowledging the true underlyign cause: Corpatism/capitlism and globalization. That will also solve the xenophobia problem since that is more generated by American workers who are bitter about the crunch they are experiencing economically. The truth is that's nothing but scapegoating and 99% untrue, but Joe Blow hears it on the news and believes it.

Change the conditions, you change the outcome.

[Lord Byron]

28. I appreciate your post and I agree with you

At the same time though, I am unmoved by those who try to pin Americans' frustration on racism. The corporations are often the first to use this card.

[ConcentrationCramp]

29. I'm not sure if I understand

because I was tryign to say that the opposite - America's racism (very real) is because of frustration and very real economic disparity. Remember, racism is often just a disguised form of classism. (suburbs, ghetto, etc)

[Lord Byron]

30. But something must be done

If there are scabs, then it is just to support a policy that would prevent scabs from getting in. Do I have sympathy for them? Yes. But they're still another facet of the globalization problem.

[ConcentrationCramp]

33. No its not just at all

Our entire American way of life is predicated on standing on the backs of African and Asians and Central/South Americans and the ME. That is unjust.

Just is there is a rich/poor gap in this country that guarantees there will always be unrest, there is also such a gap in the world and it is FAR FAR wider than here.

Loyalty to the American Woker cannot take precendence over the gross inequality exisiting in all of the Global South. Even if we implement some protectionism to momentarily improve conditions in America, the unrest doesn't go away. Nor should it, their cause is righteous.

[Bridget Burke]

38. Show me an example of corporations using racism or xenophobia.

Generally, they tend to be equal opportunity exploiters.

Most of the anti-immigrant sentiment comes from groups profiled in this report. Astroturf, not Grass Roots. And they're not just against the "illegals."

www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=175

[GirlinContempt]

34. Exactly what I always say

:D Good job

[RB TexLa]

27. Neo Know Nothings

[PsN2Wind]

36. How about?

Because it's illegal!!

[Strelnikov_]

39. ..

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. It's politicians erecting a brown bogeyman to scare the public.

This country was built by immigrants who came here for the very same reasons the Latin Americans are coming here. The very same outcries were aimed at every wave of prior immigrants. The difference was that then the opponents and fear mongers were more open in their xenophobia and racism.

The Irish were taking "real American's" jobs. As were the Italians, the Jews, the Slavs. Hawaii and the west coast were terrified of the "Yellow Peril". The blacks in the "Great Migration" took white's jobs in Chicago and Detroit.

Building a wall, draconian anti-immigrant laws, and the braying of the current crop of "respectable" racists will be about as effective as King Canutes efforts to stop the tides.

[NNN0LHI]

42. Its an issue that very few people are concerned with even with Lou Dobbs constant yammering

Just a few racists I know of personally care who is busing their dinner table at the restaurant.

They come here to work which means there must be a need for them. Otherwise they wouldn't come here.

Don

[Bridget Burke]

46. There will be many a dry eye for Lord Byron....

[NNN0LHI]

47. Yea, I tried to add him to my Buddy List and couldn't make the transaction for some reason?

I don't have anyone on my Buddy List either. He would have been the first.

:o

Don

[NNN0LHI]

50. Something tells me Lord Byron is back with a new user name and spiel

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=112400&mesg_id=112400

Watch who it attracts.

Don

[mmonk]

51. Currently xenophobia.

The immigration issues didn't suddenly pop up during the bush administration. The abuses of people's rights going on right now are real.

But let's focus on the 08 presidential election :sarcasm:

[ima_sinnic]

52. xenophobia

how come nobody ever got upset about the many Chinatowns all over the country, with Chinese signs and many many 1st-generation immigrants who could barely speak English? I saw in Orlando, and know it must be true in every large city, a Vietnamese area, where all the shops have signs in Vietnamese and very little, actually, in English. Then of course there is always Little Italy in Boston and no doubt everywhere. But gee, that has really created a chaotic situation here in the "melting pot," has it not? I mean, all those Chinese and other Asian people coming here without knowing much English, and those Italians, that has really wreaked havoc here hasn't it?

Who the hell cares if a sign is bilingual? We have abundant resources and room, more than enough to share. Why are Americans so selfish, self-centered, mean-spirited, insecure and hateful that "press 1 for English" is a threat to their very way of life?

I say, welcome, welcome, and may your discovery that the streets here are NOT paved with gold and that so many begrudge you your meager life do nothing to diminish your poignant suffering and sacrifice to enjoy the realization of your dream to attain a better life.

sheesh.