I'm so upset...tears are welling up in my eyes re: alchohol testing in high school

[ourbluenation]

Forgive me monitors for the length.

Someone started a thread re: the school back East doing an alcohol test on the teenagers. I posted that I support this idea. Unlike some people here it seems, I really do believe it takes a village to raise a child. Some DU'rs provided anectodal stories of sharing wine with their families growing up and all was well for them so what's the problem? And, "it's none of the school's effing business"

Let me share with you a different perspective.

In my small town in Nor Cal we have an epidemic of drug and alcohol related teen deaths. That's DEAD...never coming back, gone forever, 6 feet under, haven't even begun their lives, heart wrenching, heartbreaking, under 20 years old, DEAD. I can barely see the screen for the tears right now.

So (she says taking a deep breath), what did I do as a parent who had a son at this high school?

First of all the parents of my sons friends and my husband and I met on a regular basis starting their freshmen year. 4 out of the 5 sets of the parents have addiction histories in their families, some personally, some by relation...Ask around - I'll bet we're not much different that you in that respect. The good news is that the people who have personal issues have conquered the demons going on several years. Personally, it's not an issue for me and I enjoy the odd beer from time to time, my husband doesn't drink at all - no addiction issues, just not interested.

I have no idea how it started but our little group of parents became the "parent posse". The boys hated it of course. We compared notes. We instituted rules whereby they could only spend the night at each others houses... no wandering around the countryside going god knows where until all hours of the night...remember - they were freshmen. We weren't naive enough to think they wouldn't experiment with drugs and alcohol...our county is part of the emerald triangle of pot producing california, and shit - it wasn't that long ago that we were in high school. But thems the rules...as freshman, no booze tolerated. Talked a lot about making choices and consequences. A lot. Sophomore we'll revisit the policy, but for now that was the rule.

Freshmen year first semester - one dead friend. Took off one friday and partied like there was no tomorrow, parents couldn't find him, worried sick. made it home eventually saturday night and went to sleep, mom was so relieved. By morning he was dead. Choked on his vomit. Good family, good kid. Very unexpected. Boys wore black armbands with their football uniforms for the rest of high school. Memorial packed. Sadness beyond words.

Sophomore year, a little more lenience - curfew a little later. But don't lie to us or you'll be grounded. Still can only spend the night at parent posse houses. Continue to talk about making good decisions. A lot. Considered very strict parents by non posse kids. Too bad. We suspect they are drinking all along, but continue to lay down the rules. One perephial friend of the group, "Joe" starting to get more and more into smoking weed.

By junior year, parents still meeting and becoming powerless to some degree. Some are having more problems than others with the drinking. Try different things. Grounding, talking, deal-making. Beginning to feel like hostages to the random decision making of now 16 year olds. All but one are A students. Teachers love them. Coaches love them. Good kids by and large. We aren't rich. Couple of teachers in the group, physical therapist, office manager, etc...not spoiled kids.

Hear thru the grapevine that "Joe" is now into real trouble with addictions, occasional pot use turns to coke. drops out of sports. grades go from A't to C's. Rehab, independent study. Addiction demons too much to overcome. Caught stealing to pay for habit. some time in Juve hall. Parents have tried everything. taking it one heartbreaking day at a time. they love their son so much. feeling helpless. Regret to this day I didn't call up his mom a few years back and tell her what my son told me about him when they were around 13. He was sneaky, very sneaky - they didn't know he was experimenting. I didnt know her that well. Not my place. regret regret regret...

anyways

Junior year, second semester - 2 girls and a boy from local high school (there's only one HS) die in alcohol related car accident. Summer. Two recent graduates killed in alcohol related car accident. Both hispanic. hispanic community particularly devastated. still not over it. community at large in shock. good kids. that's the problem. doing all the right things....and the beat goes on.

Take personal tour of large school in So Cal that instituted random drug testing, met with their principal, incidences waaaaaaay down. Majority of kids their DO NOT want to lose their ability to participate in school related activities like theater and sports. Makes sense. Parent Posse approaches local high school about random drug testing. Principal uninterested. "privacy issues." we say parents can sign a waiver. "money issues". He has two years until he retires. Yawn.

Senior year...most of posse made it thru without anything devastating but by then we just counted our blessings that hammering the "don't drink and drive" into their heads paid off. as far as we know. none died. Off to college.

Eve of Christmas Eve, first year out of high school. College kids home for the holidays. One posse boy out with friends, one is "Joe" and two others. Joe has been doing better or so we all thought. All end up at Joe's house and drink all night long. (Joe's family at in-laws). Too wasted to smell the propane slowly leaking all night. 8:30 am - two boys leave. Posse boy goes in a room unnattached to house. Joe goes in the house.

25 minutes later wall heater comes on.

26 minutes later Joe is dead.

Body burnt beyond recognition. Posse boy so passed out he sleeps thru explosion. Joe's parents and Posse parents don't know which boy is the dead boy. frantic calls to friends - is Joe at your house??? Posse boy comes to and wanders outside to chaos. By process of elimination, the body must be Joe's. Autopsy wouldn't confirm it officially for several days. We were gone for Christmas but if we were here, good chance my son could have been there. Posse boy not returning to college this Spring. Too devastated but still partying, even more. Spinning out of control it seems.

So, we are a community of parents who have tried everything I can possible think of. We feel helpless. Where is our village? If one kid takes an alcohol test and fails, it could be the first day of the rest of his life as far as I'm concerned.

If you have privacy issues with this, sign the waiver, but please, please, please think twice about removing this option for other parents if it ever comes up in your community.

sorry for the ramble.

[Little Wing]

1. Nobody's ever overdosed on marijuana

But it's tested for the most.

[ourbluenation]

2. well maybe the problem is not just about trying to avoid overdoses.

[Little Wing]

6. If MJ was legalized, and even taxed to hell, the liquour/cheap beer companies would be out of

business in 2 weeks. Some people still like to smoke after a hit, others will always smoke after a coffee, some will always smoke.

There will always be excessive drinking with youngsters, there's no way around it. If it's not called "excessive drinking with youngsters" it's called College. The more upperclass the college, the better the drugs. I've seen it and experienced it.

A kid high out of his mind is going to be so paranoid about getting in an accident he'll either not drive at all, or drive so carefully he has a greater chance of getting T-Boned by a drunk.

[ourbluenation]

11. I don't know about that. You can get it for free where we live it's so

omni-present. First county to pass medical marijuana laws in the country. I voted for it. It's being abused though - everyone and their mother has a 215 card. My son and his friends chose booze. MJ was "for stoners". whatever - it's all bad at this age if you ask me. and understand I'm no prude by any means. maybe I'm shell shocked by all the problems we've had. all I know is that if my son truly thought football would go by the wayside if he tested positive for alcohol, he said last night he wouldn't have drank except in the summer.

[Little Wing]

12. Where do you live?

[NoSheep]

21. No Shit!

:popcorn:

[JVS]

120. ROAD TRIP!

[Megahurtz]

87. Must be Semi-Near Humbolt.

But you know, that could be a very broad area.:smoke: Could be anywhere!

[ourbluenation]

108. close -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendocino_County,_California#Politics

[Megahurtz]

149. Really Nice Up There.

I'm in NutLand So.Cal. :crazy: Gawd!

[Rex]

14. It is bad, all of it for still developing brains and bodies.

It stunts the ability to know when to take risks and when not to, all the way to age 23. So, really, NO ONE should even think about doing drugs until 25 or so, IMO.

[SammyWinstonJack]

30. Free?

:wow: Best not disclose your location, then. :evilgrin:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. You're just making stuff up.

[ourbluenation]

75. No I'm not...

we have very liberal medical mj laws here. So many people grow there own legally, the excess pretty much gets given away.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

81. Baloney.

[ourbluenation]

92. why would I lie?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendocino_County,_California#Politics

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

98. Why? To support your ridiculous ideas.

Medical marijuana's legal here too.

Yet neither had the price of marijuana gone down, nor the usage gone up.

Shit, they've decriminalized it completely in the Netherlands. Usage by teens has gone down.

That's why I know you're making stuff up.

[ourbluenation]

106. okey dokey

[Clark2008]

95. That's ridiculous.

The highs are different - if you can even get them.

I could never get "high" on marijuana. I don't have the chemical make-up to be able to. My father never could either.

Therefore, I would continue to drink to get any buzzes I felt like getting.

Of course, all this is moot right now, as I'm pregnant.

But, the minute the baby's born, I'm having a glass of champagne!! :7

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

103. I don't think that's true.

You probably just didn't inhale it correctly.

Bill Clinton probably wasn't kidding aroudn when he said he didn't inhale.

[SharonAnn]

15. But they died driving a vehicle.

[JerseygirlCT]

19. And that's another of my pet peeves

the way drug education is so often approached is "IT'S ALL BAD!". Then, when kids experiment with pot, they find out the experience wasn't anything near what they've been warned about, and they stop believing any of it.

I tell my kids that it's not something I'd recommend. It's not likely to kill them (unless they attempt to drive or something like that). But it's not smart, and it's a waste of their time and brain cells, frankly.

The hard stuff, OTOH, may very well kill them. First try. So don't.

We've been honest with them, and it's worked -- communication is strong and open.

Testing also shouldn't be for punishment, but for help.

[Seeking Serenity]

43. Pot can be addictive, though

I'm in recovery for it.

OK, not physically addictive, like smack or such like,but it can be abused. While I disagree with the "Reefer Madness" extreme, we shouldn't be sanguine about any inability to harm.

[JerseygirlCT]

62. Oh I agree

And I hope I didn't sound sanguine; I'm not.

But I think being dishonest about it only leads to trouble. That honesty also includes situations like yours. My kid's got a friend in treatment right now... so it's definitely something we've talked about.

[Seeking Serenity]

66. There are two extremes at play with pot

One is the "Ahh! Pot is just as bad as heroin!" types, and then there's the "Pot's no worse than a nice herbal tea" variety.

As with most things, the truth is in the middle.

(edited to correct typo)

[JerseygirlCT]

124. Exactly.

And just as I would never encourage my child to experiment with alcohol, I'd not encourage pot experimentation, either.

But I'm not going to make crazy, sweeping statements instead of using the truth. Much better in the long run to just be honest.

[walldude]

68. Proving the point that it's not the drug it's the person doing it.

Marijuana is not addictive at all. If you have an addictive personality and can't deal then don't smoke it. No point in ruining the fun for the rest of us.

[adigal]

140. I have never heard of pot addiction!

Is it a mental/emotional addiction??

[ourbluenation]

76. We said all those things too...but for some it wasn't enough - that's the point

some parents need more resources...you, and really me in the end of the day, are lucky. some other parents not so much.

[JerseygirlCT]

125. Absolutely -

see my post below for more.

[adigal]

139. I am looking at colleges for my son

doing the preliminary work. Any school with a big fraternity system, or classified in "The 357 Best Colleges" as a big drinking school I am crossing off.

Schools that say the kids smoke weed don't bother me at all. I would much prefer, if my kid is going to do something in college, that he smoke pot than binge drink. Drinking kills a lot of kids. I truly have never heard of a kid dying from pot. I am sure it has happened, but I never heard of any cases.

[Swagman]

3. there should be alcohol testing in the Oval Office....

[Rex]

4. You're fighting the wrong people, the schools can rollover bacwards

for you and it still won't matter. Why? Because booze is a billion dollar industry and nobody cares enough about the hypocrisy to change it. It is a battle far larger than a village, far larger than a continent. Alcohol is one of the most dangerous chemicals on the planet, drink too much and you die.

What? Poison? Our kids are drinking poison? Yep, just watered down and flavored. Instead of working on fixing the problem, our Feds pounce on pot users. Wow, such a wonderful solution to a problem no one will admit to.

Alcohol is weak poison, too bad no one in charge wants to do anything about it.

[ourbluenation]

79. tru that - but in the near term, for some kids the threat of not being able to

participate in some school activities would be enough to make them think twice. that in itself is a small victory...getting them to stop and think "is this worth it?" nine time out of ten they may say hell yeah, but that one time...ya never know.

[Hippo_Tron]

89. For some kids it may discourge them from participating in school activities

If you want to have some chance of changing a kid's behavior, after school activities may be a good place to start. If you kick kids out of their activities for drinking and doing drugs then they will have more free time in which to drink and do drugs.

IMO, the kids who would give up drinking if you told them they wouldn't be able to do their after school activities if they continued are probably the ones that are more likely to make more responsible decisions.

[ourbluenation]

97. the school I visited had a warning and counceling componant to it...it wasn't zero tolerance

and lets face it - if you test positive 3 times in a row ya probably have some problems that need to be addressed.

[Hippo_Tron]

84. We tried prohibition, peole wanted to drink

When there was no industry for it, people just made their own alcohol in the basement. The fact is that for some people, getting a little tipsy or a little drunk is fun. Granted I think that some people take it far beyond the physical pleasure when they try to out drink their friends and consider it a good night if they puked.

[shance]

5. This is an intentional conditioning of young persons to relinquish their power to authority

All the fear tactics is to make them even more frightened of power abuse and less conscious of their rights as citizens.

Its intentional brainwashing and conditioning.

[ourbluenation]

9. Whatever...right now me and many other parents are just trying to get our kids thru school alive

if they're dead all that other shit doesn't matter.

[JerseygirlCT]

20. Amen. nt

[Katherine Brengle]

28. Amen.

[shance]

104. I worry about overzealous policing of authority more than I do a few Budweisers.

I think you might consider the incroaching police forces being used in our schools.

Who profits? Who doesnt?

Why is it happening and what is the purpose?

What are the consequences from such increasing police/fear tactics being used in our schools?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

17. And that was my first thought when reading about this. eom

[Katherine Brengle]

27. Sorry, but that's bullshit.

Kids don't have all the rights and privledges of adults and the reason for this is that they are not capable of making the kinds of decisions adults have to make.

[tnlefty]

64. Correct, and that is why I've made it very clear to my kids

that drinking is a privilege and I'm pushing 50 and I've earned it. I don't drink and then drive them around in a car, and I expect the same from them. I've told them multiple times to never get into a car whether it's a friend or a relative if the driver has been drinking.

I take my responsibility to teach my kids very seriously, and thus far we haven't had any problems, but if the school system decided to start drug testing (including alcohol) I'll take my kids out of school. Period.

I'm involved with my kids and I know where they are - save it - I know where they are and when they'll be home, and if I had a feeling that they were getting into something that they shouldn't I'd be the first to seek help. But, it's my job and I will not ever submit them to intrusive drug testing at school.

They're already subjected to random locker searches, body searches, car searches if they can drive a car to school, but I'll be damned if mine will be subject to urine tests, etc. I realize that kids make mistakes, mine do, too, but fortunately their mistakes are goofy screw-ups, but I won't submit them to mandatory testing because some other kids are out of control.

I've always had a problem with group punishment.

[ourbluenation]

65. thank you - that seems to be lost on some people here. n/t

[shance]

94. With that said it has nothing to do with "privileges" Katherine, it has to do with training

young minds to bend and accept authority more easily and automatically. It creates a sheepish/submissive populace.

The excuse of "Alcohol" is simply a convenient issue that those in authority will use so they can utilize their authority to govern the entire education system and more importantly, your children. It is much like the "terror" excuse to be utilized to enforce laws that strip our basic rights along with over zealous and unhealthy restrictions.

Another example of such restrictions is happening at our airports.

People need to wake up to what is happening. Unfortunately Katherine it looks like you will figure this out when it is too late for anything to be done about it.

I hope not.

[spoony]

122. Yeah man! Like homework!

Fuckin nazis tryin to oppress kids, thinkin they as adults might know better than kids! :sarcasm:

[DerBeppo]

133. If that authority is a loving parent, they should relinquish.

They're children, not adults. Unless you want to lower the legal age to 13, this is what is necessary.

[Arugula Latte]

7. Thanks for your post. Sorry for all those losses.

:hug:

That is so hard.

My kids are still relatively young, so I haven't had to start dealing with this yet.

Yikes. :scared:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. Didn't See The Thread You Were Referring To, But I Agree With Ya.

I find no reason to be outraged at teenagers being given tests for alcohol. In fact, it's probably about friggin time.

Like you, I have seen many a tragedy due to underage drinking and have lost several HS friends to it as well.

[Megahurtz]

10. May I give a Different Perspective?

(In a way, it sounds like the Parents drove them to drink)

I would concentrate on how to be closer to your kids instead of acting so punitive, like Police, and without being a busy-body type. That's depressing in itself and sometimes people drink too much when they are depressed. Obviously, they are out-of-control drinking for a reason. Learn to be be a Parent, AND a friend. For one thing, teach them all of the dangers of life, like certain utilities (I would bet that the boy that was burnt by the explosion wasn't really made aware of what could happen)

The more you punish, the more they will drink, and hide it. Teenagers are rebellious by nature. The more you punish, the more rebellious they become, because, fact of the matter is, the friendship side of the Parent-Child relationship should have been developed years before, long before they are Teenagers.

Then if the kids stray off as Teenagers at times and go a little overboard, they will always remember what you taught them as children and come back to that. I have a daughter, and it's worked for me.

I'm not trying to scold you, it's never too late.:hug:

Just ease up a little. Playing Cop just will not work.

I hope I've explained myself clearly.

[NoSheep]

22. I have to agree. I have a nephew who didn't have a drinking problem at all until his prudish

girlfriend told his Dad and stepmom he did and now he sneaks to drink. It could become a problem now. I've watched this develop. He's 32 yrs old by the way. Had a few beers every now and then when he was younger. They think it is a sin. We have to stay balanced about this stuff. All kids situations are not the same. This testing could definitly lead kids to drink more.
Demystify for disinterest.

[Megahurtz]

31. Yes, I've seen this happen with a couple of my daughter's friends.

If parents lightened up a little, sometimes it makes all the difference.

[NoSheep]

37. Agreed. I feel for those who have lost kids to substance abuse. But the problem will be aggravated

not handled early and properly. Have fun WITH your kids I say. They won't stray too far from home to feel free to be themselves. Give them a little space at home. HELP them make choices. Force will not work with an alienated teenager.

[ourbluenation]

80. Hahahahaaa! No offense, but we are not prudish I can assure you.

I dont give a shit about sins.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. People say that a lot.

I often hear "I'm not a prude, but..."

There's always a big but.

[ourbluenation]

102. thank you for making me smile - if you knew me you'd smile too.

:)

[Megahurtz]

152. Lol!

:D

[NoSheep]

146. I'm not implying you are at all. But my sister in-law and niece in law are.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood.

[ourbluenation]

23. Ha! Thanks but that was not a problem and if it came across that way

it wasn't my intent. My son and I are extremely close. we were then and we still are. I used to have "free zones" where he could tell me anything and he wouldn't get in trouble. none of it was that shocking, really. and by the time he was a jr he didn't need a "free zone" anymore anyways. the trick is to be a parent AND keep the lines of communication open at the same time.


he had a great time in hs and by and large did very well. i think there was way too much drinking going on though in general and at some point it became more on issue of safety than anything else.

dont get so wasted you pass out
dont get so wasted you cant keep your wits about you
dont ever drink and drive - you can always call me.

the trick, especially when they were younger like 14, 15, was to give them safety information without coming across as condoning drinking at that age.

[Megahurtz]

29. Well then hopefully you have nothing to worry about.

It's hard to see it happen to someone else.

[SharonAnn]

13. Thank you. Having lost two nephews to drugs and alcohol, and recovering myself,

I admire what you've done. As a society we're not doing enough of the right things to help with this.

[JerseygirlCT]

16. Thank you for that

I agree with your sense of dismay, and concern. We've got a problem, and we're losing the sense of community that could help support our kids, and watch out for them.

We've had a spate of teen suicides and overdoses in the past several years at our high school. It's horrible. My kid lost a friend just a few months ago. Not a very close one, but it still hurts. There are far too many kids getting lost -- no support system other than drugging and drinking peers. They don't get along with their parents, or they successfully hide their problems. They feel isolated, and they don't know how to cope with life. (And remember HS? It's so not easy!) They turn to drugs to cope because they don't know what else to do.

Parents aren't with their kids for the biggest chunk of daytime hours. The people at their schools NEED to take a more personal interest in the kids in their charge. They HAVE to get personal. They may very well save a life.

When this boy died, there was one announcement made at school. Then only one of my kid's teachers even mentioned it in class -- a very young one, who still remembered being that age and how hard it was. Not one other teacher took the time to talk about it.

Guidance counselors were available to talk. Available. So passive. It made me frustrated! Get out from behind your desks and go find the kids and talk! Don't make them make that first move!

The larger community has a responsibility, too. Are there safe places for the kids to get together? Or are they shooed away, or scorned by other people in town if they group together in more than 3-4 people? Are we watching out for other people's kids, not just our own? You had the exact right idea with your communication, I think. I'm told by the kids that the biggest problem is there's nothing to do, so kids without some extra-curricular activity (sports, arts, etc.) fall into drugs easily. For a peer group. For something to do. Just because. That's a problem.

I had a friend say that her goal was just to get her kid through HS alive. Forget worries about grades or college or the rest. She just wanted her child to make it through alive. That's so sad.


Oh, it scares me!

[sandnsea]

18. I'm sorry, but sometimes kids die

I know a kid who reached over to change the radio station, flipped the car and is paralyzed. No alcohol involved. I know a girl who killed the brother of her best friends, no alcohol involved. I know another brother and sister, headed to the city to shop, both dead by a logging truck. Kids grow up, horrible things happen, and sometimes they die. States are working hard to handle this at the driver level. Only 2 kids in a car at a time, no night driving, must be registered in school, all sorts of things. That's the correct way to do it. Maybe it's a different generation who is accustomed to these tests to get any job at all. I've never had one in my life and it's still shocking to me. My kids have never even gone to a school with a metal detector, let alone drug testing. We aren't overly thrilled when the cops bring in the drug dogs. And do you know they can just drink chlorine water to mask the tests anyway? Or just drop out of school altogether. I just don't understand it. We need to figure out why living life isn't enough in this society. Why does everybody have to have a drink or drug to function here. That's the answer to your problem. Not contributing to the police state mentality, which adds the stress that people are seeking to escape, frankly.

[ourbluenation]

24. I know they die, but it seems like some of it could be avoided.

I'm so sorry for your loss.

[sandnsea]

26. I'm sorry for yours too

I think we're losing kids from about 12 and up for a variety of reasons, not just to alcohol. I just don't see more authoritarianism being the answer. I'm all for structure and expectations and consequences, but I don't think snooping and suspicion has to be part of it.

[sandnsea]

36. How about random sperm swabs?

Unplanned teen pregnancy is not death, but almost. And if someone gets HIV, it is life and death. So how about we do random sperm swabs, because sperm shouldn't be detected if kids are using condoms. Right?

To me, that's how offensive drug tests are. I understand them for people who drive or operate dangerous equipment. But these tests are given to so many low-income, powerless, workers. And now we're going to do it to our kids?? If judges and politicians had to take these tests, there would be a whole different set of laws.

[Katherine Brengle]

40. Maybe people should stop fucking doing drugs.

Then there wouldn't be a problem.

Drugs don't just hurt the people who smoke/snort/shoot/drink/whatever them - they hurt kids, they hurt communities.

It's time for people to grow up, learn the fuck to just say no, and get the fuck on with their lives instead of bitching about drug testing.

[PassingFair]

46. Here's your ceremonial hatchet!

Enjoy your sense of complete control!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. Maybe people should mind their own business.

What have you been taking?

[sandnsea]

61. They certainly should

But then, like I said, there's a lot of things people ought to stop doing. Like having sex when you aren't prepared for the consequences. If there weren't a bunch of unwanted pregnancies, maybe there wouldn't be a country full of broken people who can't cope without that smoke/snort/shoot/drink/whatever.

[High Plains]

101. Good luck with that. You're up against human history here.

People have been finding ways to alter their consciousness since day one. Rather than advocating some impossible tee-totaler abstinence model, it would probably be better to adopt drug and alcohol policies based on harm reduction. I don't suppose you advocate not letting teens have condoms because because they should just "learn the fuck to say and get the fuck on with their lives."

[Djinn]

127. what?

if I was allowed to legally grow pot which I've smoked heavilly for more than 15 years whilst holding down demading jobs, having healthy relationships with friends and family, contributing to the community, how on earth would my habit hurt anyone at all?

if I were allowed to buy legal and regulated MDMA from the chemist how would that hurt anyone?

i think it's time people grew up and stopped needing the state to protect them from themselves

[phusion]

136. Best response in this thread...

I couldn't have said it better myself.

"We need to figure out why living life isn't enough in this society. Why does everybody have to have a drink or drug to function here. That's the answer to your problem. Not contributing to the police state mentality, which adds the stress that people are seeking to escape, frankly." :thumbsup:

[Katherine Brengle]

25. I am 100% in agreement with you --

Sometimes parents do everything right and it's not enough.

They just did this at a nearby highschool and I fully support it. High school students don't have the right to drink so their rights are not being violated by testing.

Someone has to protect kids from themselves sometimes.

[PassingFair]

34. Keep them in a padded closet until they are 21.

Drug and alcohol test them every week.

NEVER believe a word they say.

NEVER let them make mistakes.

Lawd! SOMEONE has to protect kids from themselves!

[Katherine Brengle]

39. Are you a parent?

Kids don't have the same rights as adults bc they are not yet fully capable of making ALL decisions for themselves.

SOME freedom, absolutely,

Absolute freedom? You've got to be fucking kidding me.

[PassingFair]

41. Freedom from their SCHOOL BLOOD TESTING THEM, yes!

And YES, I AM a parent.

Are YOU fucking kidding ME?

[Katherine Brengle]

44. You're entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to think you are dead wrong.

I wish it wasn't necessary, but with the number of kids boozing it up and doing meth and every other goddamn thing under the sun these days, I think it is.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. How about we tap their cell phones too.

It's for their own protection, of course.

[PassingFair]

50. I'm pretty sure she's already doing it to her kids....

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. No, no. We should do it to everybody.

Especially them Ay-rabs.

For their own protection, of course.

[PassingFair]

55. Implant CHIPS! Yeah....that's the ticket!

Freedom's just another word for peeing on a stick.

Freedom's just another word for alcohol check points.

Freedom's just another word for ILLEGAL SEARCH AND SEIZURE!

Calling Number Six!:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. Install videocameras in their lockerrooms.

You never know when you'll catch a pedophile on camera.

[PassingFair]

60. 24-hour surveillance. You CANNOT be too careful.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. I say we inject them with tranquilizers.

If we keep them doped up 24/7, they'll be too far gone to take drugs.

[PassingFair]

67. And tazer them in advance, JUST IN CASE!

They should KNOW how it feels!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. I'm in tears here.

Maybe favorite local crazy scientist just got gunned down by Libyan terrorists in a plutonium deal gone badly.

We need to invade Iran. Just to make our children safer.

[PassingFair]

74. They hate us for our.... wait for it.....

FREEDOM.

[Megahurtz]

153. Rofl!

:rofl:

[ourbluenation]

86. that is a cheap shot and kinda cruel that you find it so fucking funny...

wow.

[PassingFair]

96. I find it "pretty cruel" that a democrat

would advocate the abdication of our civil rights.

Should our children be pregnancy tested, too?

Better nip these things in the bud.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. I find it downright perverted.

[ourbluenation]

88. do either one of you two smart asses even have teenagers?

[PassingFair]

90. I have 2

And this SMARTASS will vigorously work to
protect THEIR civil liberties as well as
my own.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. No.

My kids are in their late fifties.

God knows how they ever survived without mandatory testing.

:crazy:

[PassingFair]

100. Regression Therapy may be needed.

Expensive, but worth it for the GUILT you
might be able to dredge up!

Never too late to control!

[ourbluenation]

111. what do you have to gain by all this meaness? Our community just buried a kid

a few weeks ago. Maybe I'm too sensitive right now since it just happened. He was just such a great kid really, ya know? So sad. Just a few months ago he was sitting on the couch in my living room - I was so happy to see him after a long absense and I told him so. I came home from the memorial and just sat on the couch where he sat and remembered him. Knew him since he was 10. A light. A beam of light. who had a problem that no one could help him with becausee it got so far out of hand before any parent knew about it.

I don't have all the answers...

[adigal]

141. Just ignore them - tragedy has not knocked at their door

so they are being cocky. They should be thanking their lucky stars their kids were never affected by something like these tragedies, and respect your point of view.

[PassingFair]

148. No. Better advise. Lash out at EVERYONE.

Advocate the drug/alcohol testing of all public school
children. (If you're not guilty...you have nothing to
worry about!)

Who ARE you, Betty Bowers?

This is AMERICA.

If you have problems with YOUR children, deal with it.

Don't infringe on the rights of others.

:crazy:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

151. Meanness?

1. We're not calling anybody names.

2. We're not the ones wanting to enforce mandatory testing.

[IdaBriggs]

159. One of the "problems" with an open forum is that we have our

fair share of idiots. You've met a couple on this thread, and I'm sorry for it. They cloak their personal issues (as do we all) in the "it didn't hurt me" thing, and forget that "times have changed." They don't seem to understand that because SOME PEOPLE don't have a problem, that means SOME PEOPLE will. They are okay with your kids dying as long as they can keep having their good times -- you and yours are just sacrificial folks, as far as they are concerned.

Frankly, its kind of sick to me, but I generally tell myself that the drugs they've been indulging in for so long have probably burned out their "human decency brain cells." What should be a "no brainer discussion" -- no illegal drugs or alcohol for minors -- becomes personal attacks on whether or not you can be a Liberal/Progressive/Democrat if you don't think its okay for drunks to drive cars while smoking weed.

I'm sorry for your losses; I recently shocked one of my beloved nieces by informing her that NONE of my teenage nieces/nephews would be allowed to babysit my (unborn) twins without passing a drug test. She wanted to know if "just being in the room" could mean a failure, and I pointed out politely that "smoke" can also affect her/give her a positive test result EVEN IF ITS JUST HER FRIENDS DOING IT.

She's 15 now as of January, but we've already had one incident of a SUPPOSED ADULT (age 30+) smoking weed in a car with her (in November); it prompted a discussion of how this guy (a "baby daddy" in-law) had put her at risk by a) driving in an altered state; and b) possibly getting her in trouble with a positive result on a drug test when she wasn't the one indulging. We don't WANT her to be tolerant -- we want her to stay away from people like that. (The "baby daddy" in-law isn't welcome anymore; hopefully, that particular niece will dump him soon, but frankly, I'm not counting on it.)

Good luck on your campaign to keep kids safe. Use the ignore feature on those who can't keep reasonable, articulate concerns separate from personal attacks (you know the ones I mean).

And remember, just like there are "trashy" people you wouldn't hang out with in the real world, DU has a fair share of them, too. Fortunately, we can use IGNORE!!!

[GirlinContempt]

161. Disagreeing with someone

doesn't make a person 'trashy'. Oversimplifying the issues and painting people who don't agree with you as not caring if your kids die? That's kind of trashy.

[IdaBriggs]

162. I agree with you -- disagreeing with someone doesn't make you "trashy."

Engaging in personal attacks to justify your own personal peccadillo's DOES.

The original poster is dealing with a problem -- keeping illegal drugs and alcohol away from minors. If you have some brilliant ideas on how to HELP HER, please share them. If you don't think illegal drug use and alcohol use by minors is a problem, then the odds of your being able to help her SOLVE the problem she's addressing are minimal.

Yes, we do have some people on DU I consider "trash" -- some of my personal favorites include (with no names) the guy who thinks his significant other was framed for sexually molesting his twelve year old step-son (despite the confession and jail time) who is more concerned for his own personal safety than he is for the kids in his neighborhood; the guy who was having financial difficulties so dire that a money was raised for him (who promptly followed that generosity up with a "its okay for me to spend money on smoking even if I can't afford to pay my bills thread" insulting the evil, non-tolerant Non-Smokers of DU); and a whole bunch of folks who can't seem to get it through their thick heads that SOME PEOPLE not having a problem with drug use (traditionally beginning with marijuana and alcohol in minors) doesn't mean its not going to ruin the lives of approximately 20% of the kids who begin using at that age -- those folks are the ones who would be screaming bloody murder if a "major corporation" was marketing a product that they KNEW destroyed the lives of 20% of its young users, but as long as its a neighborhood drug dealing friend (or they are growing it themselves), they don't give a sh*t.

So, disagree and don't consider yourself trashy (because I won't either). Get stupid, and make personal attacks on someone suffering the ill effects of your favorite recreational substance, and I'm going to look at you as TRASH. The world is not only black-and-white; there are shades of gray everywhere.

For myself, I think keeping illegal drugs and alcohol away from minors is a good idea for a variety of reasons. For you, it might not be either that big of a deal, or for all I know, it might be a way for you to supplement your income -- that's part of the "joy" of being on an anonymous message board!

And that reminds me: its time to see if my 21 year old heroin addict niece is still alive. Her mother didn't have a problem with illegal drug use, and supplied her and her friends while they were all in high school. There is reason to believe my sister's "self medication" helped cause her death, but my niece is the one whose life is ruined. Ah, what a genius mother my sister was -- giving her 16 year old daughter "the good stuff" instead of keeping it ALL away from her! Thank goodness the eldest daughter became "estranged" and ran away to college instead; that one is working on her master's degree, while "baby sister" keeps dealing with things like "rehab" and "prison." But, no harm, right? All of the "crazy people" around her are just "overreacting" to the theft, and the prostitution, and disease exposure, etc. Now, instead of being a CONTRIBUTING member of society, she's a drain on it.

Who could have foreseen THAT? :sarcasm:

[ScreamingMeemie]

170. One, my daughter would laugh in your face given the fact that she does

not see babysitting the offspring of relatives a cherished activity...more like a pain. As you will soon find out, people are not exactly enamored with diaper duty.

Before you call her anything...she's a straight A student who tends to hang around the homefront on Saturday nights. Saturday nights she wouldn't spend baby sitting children of self inflated egos. I mean, after all, it's not the Christ Child we're talking about here. She might be enticed into that just for the interesting blogging it would make for.

and Ida...mmmm...you did hang out with PassingFair and her children in Farmington Hills last summer in the "real world" , and seemed to be rather taken with them. Whoops! Funny how you didn't require a blood test from them before you deigned to speak with them.

Ignore away...it will be no great loss. :hi:

[ourbluenation]

110. I'm in my forties...it's worse now than it used to be. You can choose to believe

that if you want or not. and let me say, I don't think this is a solution for all communities, but it might be for ours.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

134. ROFL.

You're right. The wasn't a lot of drug and alcohol use back in the sixties.

:rofl:

[ourbluenation]

143. oh pick your ass up off the floor you old fart - you're not that funny.

you're just a mean old man who can bend over and kiss my big, white, irish ass.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

150. LOL.

What's the matter? Haven't got an argument?

[Megahurtz]

154. And This is The Problem that I See.

Many, many Adults these days are overly-paranoid and clamp down way too tight on the Teenagers. Some Adults these days are so uptight! Sheesh. My Parents were never that uptight!
Most likely many Adults these days are so rigid because they were a little crazy :crazy: in their younger years, after all, in the Seventies you could pretty much get away with anything. Sound familiar?

That's why High School Campuses today are like Jails.
The Adults running them are so paranoid because of their own past. Lol!

Like I said before, I think it's more of a problem of the Teenagers rebelling against too much authority.

[fidgeting wildly]

131. You seem to think that only people who have kids,

or specifically teenagers, are allowed to have an opinion about this affront to civil rights. How charming of you.

[ourbluenation]

144. we have a saying in the sexual assault victim advocacy world I live in....

walk a mile in her shoes. stay up late at night hoping they make it home safely, again and again and again. go to 5 memorials for a few dead teenagers. seriously. walk a mile in the shoes of a parent of a dead kid who might think that maybe, just maybe a program like this could have helped. you guys make it seem like big brother is gonna have mandatory searches of their assholes or something. jesus. and there is a waiver componant to it so you are free to not participate if ya don't want to. my community has a health crisis. this may be part of a solution for us. not you. but us.

[ScreamingMeemie]

169. She has the only two teenagers that I know of (besides my own) that

I enjoy having in my home.

[PassingFair]

48. Then arrange for testing for your kid.

Leave the rest of this freedom-founded country OUT OF IT!

[JohnLocke]

58. "Citizens don't have the right to financially support terrorism..."

"...so their rights are not being violated if we monitor all financial accounts."

You argument and that argument are logically equivalent, no?

[billyoc]

32. I'm all for drug and alcohol testing for students.

Let them learn at a young age how to beat the tests and get around all of the government intrusions into their lives, before they get older and it's their livelihood on the line.

[MadHound]

33. Let's look at this another way

You're trying to be good parents, don't want your kids to start doing stupid things on alcohol or drugs. Thus, you crack down, put down a fairly rigid system of rules and monitoring. Make the forbidden even more alluring, arouse the curiosity of these kids even more. So they become even more determined to try it out, sneak around, taste the forbidden fruit, and wind up getting burned.

Let's look at another scenario. My family also has issues with addiction, hell I caught my great uncle straining Mennen's aftershave lotion through a loaf of bread in order that he can drink off the alcohol. That bad, that desperate, and it is widespread througout my family. My parents' generation, having seen that the strict crackdown doesn't work(I come from a family of Southern Baptists, no drinking, dancing, smoking or card playing), it just arouses the kid's curiosity and determination. My sister and I come along, and my parents, aunts and uncles do something different, they raise us kids to know alcohol, and to be responsible.

I had my first drink of alcohol at four, the same age I had my first smoke. I was curious about these habits of grownups. I had one sip of beer, one puff on a cigarette, and put both down, the cigarettes for good, the alcohol for another twelve years. My parents didn't crack down on me, they didn't put draconian restrictions on my life. They explained to me, and talked to me about the dangers of these substances, and that I should approach all such matters responsibly. Sure, I played around with dope, and have been a social drinker. But I've never been addicted to anything, I rarely have a drink, I don't have a craving in my life. And my sister and cousins who were raised the same way? None of them has had a problem with drugs, alcohol or tobacco.

Perhaps rather than treating children like hot house roses, having to constantly be sheltered, monitored, and knowing every move they make, they should be treated with respect, and an attitude that they can handle these sorts of adult issues. Rather than wielding the heavy hand, teach your children. Rather than putting restrictions on them, equip them with the knowledge and trust in order to help them make the right decisions. After all, you're not going to be able to watch them all of your life, so it ultimately comes down to what you are teaching them that is going to enable them to live, thrive and survive.

And frankly, I find this sort of drug and alcohol testing immoral and an affront to human dignity. It is also counterproductive, making the allure of the forbidden all that more bright and shiny. And in the end, all it is going to accomplish is to turn this generation of children into little automatons ready and willing to submit to authority at the slightest drop of a hat. This isn't how you raise good citizens in this country, this is how you raise a generation tolerant of authority and ultimately fascism.

[PassingFair]

57. You talk SO much more nicer than me do!

:)

[MadHound]

109. Thanks for the compliment, but sometimes I'm just rambling

;)

[ourbluenation]

73. Sorry MadHound but the scenario you paint in your last two paragraphs

does not come close to what our situation was like. There were no hot house roses and sheltering, accept age appropriate rules when he was a freshman. I just saw no reason why a 14 year old should be hanging around after hours with 17 and18 year olds and I stand by that decision.

[MadHound]

107. Monitoring them like you did, determining who they could hang out with,

Limiting their friendships. Sure sounds pretty heavy handed to me. But hey, I wasn't there, and don't know the full story.

What I do know is two things. The first is stop holding alcohol and drugs out as this great big bugaboo that they're never to touch. These are kids in their most rebellious years. By coming down heavy on them with this shit, hell, all you're doing is making drink and dope seem all that much more attractive. If Mom and Dad are getting this worked up about it, damn it must be cool. That's the mentality we're working with here. If you make it into not such a big deal, even allow the kids to have a bit of wine on special occaissions, talk responsibility with them, then the allure of the forbidde won't be so great and their urge to go hogwild won't be so demanding.

Look at Europe. I've seen kids in Germany drinking their wee bit of beer at festivals. I've seen kids drinking their wee bit of wine on holidays in France. And yet the alcoholism rates in these countries are a little less than half of the US rate. But then again, they make alcohol out to be no big deal over there, while here is the forbidden fruit for teenagers.

Secondly, while I can sympathize with your plight, I'm dead set against this ongoing encroachment on our lives and liberties. Why should I suffer under state sponsored nannyism simply because a group of parents can't properly raise their kids in regards to alcohol and drugs? Why should my kids be drug tested, or why should I be drug tested. This ongoing creep into our lives and bodies was started out under Reagan, and if it isn't stopped, pretty soon we're not going to be able to go out the door in the morning without peeing into a cup. Is that what you really want? Is that the world you want to live in? I certainly don't, for lying down that road is all the horrors of fascism and authoritarianism, all whipped into a nice little Orwellian nightmare.

If you want to find out whether your kids are drinking are not, great, I can understand that. And frankly it isn't too hard to do so if you are a halfway observant parent. But stop abdicating your parental responsibilities to the state in order that they can intrude into everybody's lives. Your kids, your responsibility, and leave the government out of the lives of myself and my family.

[ourbluenation]

113. oh for crying out loud....sign a waiver and there is no problem, no infringments

on your kids "rights". There has to be a way to not participate if you don't want to. Absolutley.

But some of us have been proactive with our kids, and please don't mistake that for overbearing or unrealistically demanding, and still there is a problem in our community. I would say worse than most. The problem is determing when does it become a localized community health issue that needs attention. When is it a community crisis and what should be done?

[MadHound]

123. Way to not address any of the points I brought up

It isn't about simply signing a waiver, OK. It is about raising a generation of kids who are comfortable with, and actually come to expect, government intrusions into their lives on a regular basis. Piss tests, lie detector tests, searches without warrants, what we are raising here isn't a generation of alcohol free youth, what we're raising is a generation of sheep who are increasingly willing to bow to authoritarian pressure. I don't want our children to be like that, for like I said earlier, that way lies fascism.

And rather than abdicating your parenting responsibilities to the state, show some responsibility of your own and raise your children in a manner that won't put them on the road to addiction. Don't hold out these substances as the golden forbidden, rather teach them what it is, when it is approapriate, and how to be responsible. Then you won't need the state taking piss tests, warrantless searches and other heavy handed measures. If you fail in this, not only are you failing your children, but you are failing society.

And not to be cold hearted about it, but sometimes children will kill themselves, no matter what we do. No matter how many piss tests are taken, now matter how hard you come down on a kid, they're going to go out and do something dumb and die. That's simply nature, and we have to learn to live with it.

However if you want to live in a state that is taking such authoritarian measures, I would suggest that you go somewhere else. For that kind of authoritarianism does not belong in American society. Yes, I realize that we have far too much of that already. But at least some of us are fighting back the tide as best as possible, and we certainly don't need more people encouraging ever more draconian measures.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. Oh, Lord.

1. Mandatory testing for anything without probable cause/court order is wrong. It's just plain wrong.

2. There's nothing wrong with teenager having an occasional drink. Learning how to drink responsibly is important. Maybe if adults drank responsibly with their kids, you'd have less irresponsible drinking.

3. Marijuana never hurt anybody. This "gateway" shit is nonsense and I can't take people who fall for it seriously.

[Nevernose]

38. I had 6 -- that's SIX -- students arrive drunk today.

Seriously. Total honesty.

Mostly I teach remedial freshman, but the last class of the day is made up of mixed Juniors/Seniors. As anyone who's read my posts about my work before know, I work at an "urban" high school. Black, Hispanic, and PWT, primarily. And I work here because it's the same neighborhood I've lived in since I was a 14 year old freshman, and the same neighborhood I live in now. I'm Mr. Kotter, and am "welcomed back" daily.

I am so torn on this issue. On the one hand, 6 out of 37 kids (what is that, something like 17% of them?) were intoxicated. It was difficult to teach, difficult to learn, and impossible for those six to get anything. They weren't even that obvious about it. I had suspicions about a few of them, but a couple had to be narced out to me.

One of the drunken kids has spoken to me before about being an alcoholic (and his parents are both alcoholics). If his parents find out, they'll kill him. They also already KNOW, but want to pretend like the problem doesn't exist, because it's easier for them that way (a conversation with the father confirmed this for me). He asked me to take him to an AA meeting this Friday, instead of drinking. Apparently he couldn't wait until Friday to start binge drinking, though. I'm still thinking about taking him.

One kid's parents I called. His mother, after I explained my suspicions, said, "That fuckin' nigger? I ain't seen his dumb ass in six weeks." I knew that he was staying with his girlfriend, his kid, and her parents, but was still hoping for a better reaction. Maybe if I was in his position, I'd feel like taking a drink, too. (And the irony is that we began reading Huckleberry Finn last Friday, preceded by three days of discussions/exercises on racist and/or derogatory language).

I couldn't call anyone after that, especially with no evidence. A few years ago I caught one kid, 14, with pot. He claimed it was oregano for Foods/Nutrition class. When the school police said that it had been tested, his mother's response was, "The REAL criminal is the one who switched my kid's oregano with marijuana!" She then threatened to sue the school, so charges were dropped. And she believed this.

But what do I do aboutthe other 31 kids in that class, the ones who, if not there to learn, are at least willing to come un-intoxicated? DO they deserve to have their civil rights violated?

Just where do we draw the line between civil rights and pragmatism? I just can't figure it out. On the one hand, I really DID laminate my ACLU membership card (I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU! :)), but on the other hand, things can't continue like this for so very many people...

[sandnsea]

82. Don't punish the 31

And create a situation where they feel that they're paying for the sins of the 6. There isn't anything those 31 can really do to stop those 6 from using, there shouldn't be group punishment like that. You don't want to risk their goodwill. Besides, you really can't save every single soul that crosses your path. Sometimes you are just setting an example to make it easier on someone else, when one of those kids is ready to hear. Planting seeds that someone else will harvest.

Anyway, I admire your dedication and commitment. It sounds like your kids are really lucky to have you.

[Hippo_Tron]

112. Would the 6 actually be learning anything even if they weren't drinking

Seems to me that they have no interest in learning and you can't make someone learn who isn't interested. If they are showing up to class drunk, then clearly they aren't interested in learning.

BTW, I went to a private school and you would have seniors coming to school drunk and stoned during the second semester frequently. They made okay grades throughout high school but once second semester of senior year came around everybody had applied to college and more importantly everybody felt that high school had nothing left to offer them.

Personally I never came to school drunk or stoned but I did sneak off campus when I told teachers I was going to the library. Usually I'd drive home and go for a run and then come back at lunch time. It's not that I wasn't interested in learning, it's just that by that time high school had absolutely nothing left to teach me that I was interested in. Most of my classmates and I made up as many fake doctors' appointments or whatever as possible to skip school during that semester. It got to the point that when we planned senior skip day some people wouldn't graduate if hey missed another day of school.

I'm not saying that my situation is all that similar to the one you are seeing, but my point is that sometimes kids just don't want to learn.

[MadMaddie]

42. Your experiences are tragic and they are happening all over the

country.

So I pose this question to all on DU!

Why is it that cigerattes cannot be advertised on television and in other areas? Cigerettes used to be advertised in magazines as glamorous and stylish. One add comes to mind of a 20 year old blond skiing down snowy mountain with a cigeratee in her hand. (Forgot to add she ended up with throat cancer and a hole cut in her throat) But it was deemed that cigerettes and other tobacco products cause cancer over a long period of time.

When alcohol, beer, wine and now hard alcohol is glamorized and advertised in every available commerical slot. The Superbowl which I love to watch the commericials is filled with funny commericials involving alcoholic beverages. Every magazine has adds etc.

Yet alcohol can kill immedietly not only the drinker but innocent people on the road. It can kill over a long period of time with cirrosis of the liver and other ailments.

Adults know the products exist and know where to get them. Why does it have to be thrown in the face our youngsters.

I had friends in highschool and college that had drug and alcohol issues, some suicides some fatal accidents.

When will America stand up to the Alcohol Industry?

[Seeking Serenity]

45. "When will America stand up to the Alcohol Industry?"

We did that, once.

The results were not as intended.

[MadMaddie]

53. You are right...I am not talking about prohibition but more along the

lines of removing the advertising for alcoholic products like they did with cigerattes.

(Good Catch)

[MadHound]

54. When will America stand up to the Fast Food Industry?

More Americans die of diseases caused by the massive ingestion of fast food than alcohol:shrug: Who else to ban, the soda industry, the auto industry, who's next.

Look, I'm as big a critic of corporate America as anybody on this board, but I refuse to support censorship or prohibition, no matter how noble the cause seems. We start down that road with the noblest of intentions and wind up sliding all the way down to fascism. No thanks.

[sandnsea]

69. What's that got to do with privacy rights?

I'm fine with banning alcohol advertising. But it's got nothing to do with randomly treating people like criminals. If they were stopping in at a mosque and randomly sampling hands for explosive residue, DU would be livid. But we turn around and applaud them doing the exact same thing to our kids??? I don't get this place sometimes.

[MadMaddie]

78. So where are the underage teens getting the alcohol? If they

are drinking during the weekend? Somone has to purchase it for them or it is being provided for them and whoever is doing should be prosecuted.

The random drug testing I don't agree with.

[sandnsea]

91. Agree with that too

I'm for being a relatively snoopy parent and having clear guidelines. I think we could do a lot better job with setting a standard for kids. I wish no parents would have drinking parties for their kids. I think it sets a terrible example. My kids did some drinking in high school, but they always spent the night somewhere and I recognize I was just plain lucky too. I wish kids got a kick out of life. I know that's corny, but what's wrong with the planet we've got anyway??

[tyedyeto]

59. Ok.....

all you sheep line up.

Let's all breathe into that flawed tube, then pee into the bottle so everyone can be sure sure we are all pure as Jesus was.

[liberalhistorian]

70. I'm sorry, but it really isn't any of the

school's goddamn business. There should be neither drug or alcohol testing in the schools. My parents shared wine with me and my stepsister while we were growing up, as did many other families I know both directly and indirectly, and everything was fine. Teens and families shouldn't be punished for the irresponsibility of others. Big Brother is already watching us in so many other ways where we used to be left the hell alone, I don't want him in this, either. The schools have enough to deal with and it's none of the goddamned business.

[sweetheart]

71. i feel exactly like you say about the 9/11 inside job nt

[Pithlet]

77. I'm not sure if I agree with you 100%, but

I think people way overreacted to your position in that thread. The reason I'm not sure if I agree with you is I'm not sure how I feel about this, myself. I can see both sides of this argument. Some people on DU get real crazy and just plain nasty when it comes to stuff like this. I don't blame you for being upset. I don't think your position on this is all that outrageous.

[ourbluenation]

114. thank you. I'm not sure I even agree with myself on this but it could be a solution if done right

thanks again - I've never had such reactions here from anyone on DU before. Personal attacks. wow.

[GirlinContempt]

83. If a parent is so worried

and willing to pay, why not just get the tests done themselves instead of subjecting a whole school to it?

[JVS]

119. Because the need to impart the sense of dread that only an impersonal and heavy-handed bureaucratic

institution is able to achieve.

It's a lot easier to let the kid be afraid of being unable to participate in extracurricular activities (without which a student in the USA is in a tough spot as far as college admissions or scholarships go) than it is to threaten and fulfill discipline yourself.

[GirlinContempt]

128. Well uh

threaten to not allow your kid to participate in extra-curricular activities? :P

[JVS]

130. Parent's don't have the stugats for that

Kids know that parents won't intentionally ruin their kid's futures, so the parents need the school to act as a sourve of harsh an uncaring discipline (hopefullt on someone elses kis so that their own will be scared straight by the example)

[High Plains]

105. Maybe we should try teaching kids to drink responsibly.

Instead of that, we try to tell kids alcohol is "poison."

[ourbluenation]

115. I think you have to ease into that. Dealing with someone 13 quite different than dealing

with 17 year olds.

[EFerrari]

116. Sorry, not buying in. Random drug testing is a huge invasion of privacy.

You can't ask teenagers to invest in a social contract even as you abrogate it.

And please don't nag at me about addiction or peer pressure. Been there, done that with two boys as a single mom.

Two wrongs.

[Dastard Stepchild]

117. Having some anecdotal experience of adolescent drinkers...

And having worked now in the substance use field for a few years, my gut tells me that a number of the adolescents that transition to problem drinking have parents that are somewhat aware of the situation. It's often termed as parents having a suspicion about using, but those suspicions do not arise from just anywhere. Sometimes we see more than we want to, or are able to, let on.

So, if a school institutes a testing policy, what then? Even in the face of evidence, parents are generally unsure of how to proceed. A test is not meaningful on its own. What does the school (and the community and the parents) plan to do with this information? I won't even talk about the privacy issues, which I think is a fair argument. I'm talking more about the issues of denial and confusion. A test gives you a positive or negative outcome, but says little about how to move forward.

I sympathize with the sadness of your story. It is a terrible loss of life. But even still, I do not see how drug testing is the solution. It's like giving you a brick when what you really want is a house - a small piece that, on it's own, does little to address your wants and needs.

My best to the parents and children in your community - may you all find peace and healing.

[renate]

118. kids simply cannot anticipate the future like adults do

Their brains aren't developed enough:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/interviews/todd.html

Piaget found that young kids' ideas of right vs. wrong were dependent on the risk of getting caught breaking a rule, not on whether something was intrinsically right or wrong. It certainly seems that if we want to keep younger teenagers from using drugs or alcohol, fear of punishment is the most effective way.

Personally, I think that keeping younger teenagers from using drugs or alcohol is important enough to use that fear of punishment, since the cost of a mistake can be death. For lower-consequence things I'm more in favor of letting them make their own decisions.

Imposing my own preferences, which for adults are to live and let live as long as you don't put anybody else at risk, would mean making a conscious choice to increase the risk of death, injury, or addiction for kids whose brains are simply not developed enough to consider any consequences more serious than getting caught. Adults need to make decisions on kids' behalf until those kids are mature enough to make their own... and I think there are a LOT of kids who honestly can't weigh the fun of a temporary buzz against the risk of death by inhaling their own vomit. They all think it won't happen to them.

[Swamp Rat]

121. How about parents who want to others to monitor their children sign a contract to test them?

Why force everyone else to follow this unconstitutional, draconian measure to "sign a waiver" to regain their right to privacy?

This AMERICA! Not Stalinist Russia!

[EFerrari]

135. It should go both ways. Children should be able to have their parents

tested randomly, too. And audited for tax fraud. And, monitored for sedition.

Maybe, bed checks should be included for the peace of the community.

Do you know where your parents are?

lol

[Swamp Rat]

157. Damn straight!

... and the neighborhood priest! After all, he used to give me a big gulp of wine every Sunday.

[Djinn]

126. what would testing have done

to prevent any of this?

[JacksonWest]

129. Maybe we should just put the constitution on hold for people that have sad stories.

[PassingFair]

164. How can you BE so CRUEL and TRASHY?

You SUCK!

:)

On Edit: Do I NEED the...

:sarcasm:

[Apollo11]

132. Random drug testing protects teens from peer pressure

In England, most high school students say they want random drug testing in their schools, because it provides them with an excuse to give if they are ever in a group that wants them to try drugs.

When you are a teen, saying "my mom said to say no" is not considered a credible reason to decline the offer of marijuana or other drugs. But "I might get expelled from school, and then my dad would kill me" is more acceptable.

Don't ask me to explain why. I am not a teen (any more).

[marions ghost]

138. excellent point

From my experience, parental control re. drinking, drugs etc. --is often nonexistent or ineffective. So how much is it society's responsibility to try to take up the slack? I applaud the parents who are willing to work together as a group. As least they're trying to support each other and look at it as a community.. I agree that drug testing in the schools is invasive, but then, what's the answer? It isn't enough to just pontificate about "I taught MY children well..." This is a societal problem and it has to be dealt with as a community IMO. It can be done. Universities have cracked down and made some progress. Some states have made progress with severe penalties for drunk (or otherwise messed up) driving. Should high schools sponsor AA-like groups that meet daily?

These youth alcohol-related deaths are devastating to schools and communities. Just recently 4 teens died in my vicinity--same old story, alcohol and driving well over the speed limit. Good kids, good families. Just another tragedy. (Except when it's YOUR child or a kid you knew). My sister actually had the terrible experience of having a carload of intoxicated teenagers crash into a pole on the corner of her street. No seatbelts were in use and all were killed. She had debris and dying kids on her front lawn. You don't get over that.

We don't believe in intervention very often when adults have a serious drinking or drug problem, so is that why this situation of kids being drunk in school is condoned? Or should there be more criticism of our dog-eat-dog society itself? If teens had less stress, more direction, more recreational facilities, more goals--?? I understand the OP's heartfelt concern. It's a national tragedy. You do get to a point where you'd try anything that would lower the numbers of deaths.

[Cerridwen]

137. Why do our children drink, smoke and/or do drugs?

Rather than trying to apply a bandaid to a sucking chest wound, why don't we figure out what's wrong with our society that our children feel the need to participate in an unhealthy manner with what can be, unhealthy substances. You can give all the pee tests you want. You won't get an answer to that.

I know it's not as "sexy" nor the "results" as immediate as taking punitive measures, but I think it's time to find our why children drink, smoke and/or do drugs.

Before everyone chimes in that it's peer pressure, of course peer pressure is part of it. Why is peer pressure so effective? Because our children want to "fit in" to be part of the group to be part of a community or because they want to be one of the "cool kids." Why? I think most of us like to "fit in" and may be uncomfortable being "different." We can deal with it differently once we've survived puberty and become "adults." How do "children" handle the same feelings of not fitting in, of not being a cool kid, of not being part of the community? And let's face it, even the "cool kids" don't feel like they fit in.

What is it that's happening in our communities, our homes and our schools that our children feel alienated to the point of participating in dangerous activities so that they can "fit in?" It has to be something specific to the U.S., because as others here have noted, this doesn't happen in some European countries on the scale it's happening in the U.S.; though, give us time and I'm sure we can export this behavior as well as we've exported some of our other insanities. What is it in the U.S. "personality" that contributes to such self-destructive behavior in our children? For that matter, what is it in the U.S. "personality" that contributes to such self-destructive behavior in our adults?

Yes, I believe it "takes a village to raise a child." But there are villages and there are villages. If all my village is capable of is tracking my every move and making sure I'm punished for any "unacceptable" behavior, my village feels more like an armed camp than a village and I'm outta there first chance I get. If my village is one in which I know someone will be there to help me stand up after I've stumbled or fallen, it feels like a safe space to live and I might stick around to offer help to the next person who falls. It seems to me, we're creating armed camps in our communities rather than villages. Why?

What about us makes us quick to judge and punish and slow to understand and help? Are we so caught up in the rush to obtain all the trappings of the "American Dream" that we don't have time? Are we so busy just trying to get by in our own life we don't have time to step beyond our own needs? Are we just a bunch of "rugged individuals" who can't see beyond "hell, I made it, why can't you?" Is this how we act? Is this what we teach our children?

So, why do our children drink, smoke and/or do drugs? Why do we? There's not a pee test out there that will answer that.

[JVS]

165. Because drinking, smoking, and doing drugs are superfun and cool!

[hedgehog]

167. Excellent question!

I look at my sister's kids and dread what's going to happen when they become teenagers. On the other hand, mine never even had a curfew. I had one high school grad and high school junior who spent the summer working stage crew for the community theater. I always was sound asleep when they got home, so it wasn't until later that I found out they spent the hours from midnight to 2 AM playing pinochle at the donut shop! Yet I would trust any of my kids any where, any time. Clearly draconian rules are not the answer. Personal responsibility has to be instilled from a very early age. It's vital that kids learn that choices and actions have consequences.

[Porcupine]

168. Maybe because we abandoned them.

We have abandoned our children. Who's brilliant idea was it to let 13-22 year olds wander around and spend most of their time with their peers? Who really thinks this is a good idea?

When we create a wall of seperation between adult life and teen life and then tell them that they are to spend ALL of their time planning and preparing to live in an adult world they have no experience with; well what do you expect is going to happen?

Don't drink, don't drive, don't have sex, don't get high......We do these things and they are glorified beyond all reason in the media. Then we go and say "don't do these great things that we do" and send them off all by themselves in cars. In freaking CARS!! for christ's sake.

So your kid is wandering around out in the world full of alcohol, drugs, STD's , fast cars, crappy beater cars, and now we add the internet. Most of you would do better to send the kid to his/her room with with a sexual partner, a condom, a glass of wine each and a joint; at least you would know what they were doing and how much of it. And out of cars.

So, here's a another clue. Our children are miserable. People who love life and are interested in their future do not need to obliterate them selves at every opportunity. It gets in the way of getting things done.

I quit drinking in my early 20's because it screwed up my balance in Sunday morning Tai Chi classes. I was very, very lucky. Pray your child gets so lucky as they find something so interesting to do in Saturday morning that drinking Friday night is not an option.

Other parents I knew encouraged their kids to drink (lightly, 1-2 only with meals) at home and have their boyfriends/girlfriends into their rooms. Bring other kids over also. They made sure we didn't drink and drive or drink to excess. Teens having sex had birth control provided and otherwise the parents would turn up the TV and ignore it. Those kids were very, very lucky.

Today if you give a kid 1/2 glass of wine with dinner you will go to jail. That goes double for giving them a joint in a county riddled with meth. So law enforcement seperates kids from responsible guidance.

We have abandoned our children and left them to survive or die. In the college town I live in death is a very real and constant option.

[noonwitch]

142. You will never be able to stop college kids from drinking, unless they want to stop

Safety is what needs to be taught, although the message of abstaining should still be sent on some level.

Kids should know how to get a cab to take them home when they are too drunk to drive, or how to start a designated driver rotation with their friends. They should know about how much alcohol will make them drunk, girls should understand that drinking too much with boys is frequently the step that leads to date rape, and they should definitely understand that drinking liquor is different from drinking beer.

I'm not big on parents testing their kids for things without damn good cause. I think that they way you and the other parents handled overnight parties and such was totally appropriate for high school kids, but college students are legally adults in every capacity except the drinking age. If they are smart, they will find ways to pass the tests anyways.

[ourbluenation]

145. absolutley - you give them the tools and send them on their way.

but at 14, 15 and 16 it's another matter as you say.

[WindRavenX]

147. oh please

I'm in college--a top college. Smoke mj everyday. Drink a glass of wine most nights.


Your post screams "won't someone PLEASE think of the children!!" bullshit hysterics that I refuse to tollerate.

If you're concerned, talk to your kid about dependency issues. Otherwise, there is nothing wrong with a nightly puff of the good herb. Lots of successful, bright people do it.

End the drug war now.

[meow mix]

155. every incident you mention is the result of alchohol, but you imply

pot is also an epidemic problem by saying "epidemic of drug and alcohol related teen deaths" and then repeatedly mentioning pot as a main culprite.

so.. im wondering where are the tragic pot incidents?
are there any?

[Apollo11]

158. Driving while "high" is very dangerous

I know in Europe there are a lot of road accidents on weekends caused by young drivers who were smoking grass or hash. They cause hundreds of deaths each year.

But if you are not going to drive, then it's no more dangerous than whiskey.

[rosesaylavee]

156. Addiction is hell.

:hug:

[benEzra]

160. As long as parents have the right to opt their children out w/o consequences...

or you have to opt your own child in, fine. But please don't make my child's participation in school or extracurricular activities contingent on surrending their right to be free from searches without probable cause.

You may consider random testing to be a worthwhile infringement for your child, which is fine (you're the parent), and I respect your opinion. But please leave my children out of it if I don't happen to feel the same way.

I think a poster upthread hit the nail on the head when she/he pointed out that in practical terms, random testing is often as much about anti-fourth-amendment conditioning as it is alcohol/drug abuse prevention.

[Jonathan50]

163. There were exactly the same problems back in the '60s and even earlier

First, let me extend my condolences for your loss. Some of my daughter's schoolmates were killed in car accidents and I can appreciate your pain. The only comfort I can give you is that time does indeed dull the pain of loss.

Now I hope you'll please excuse me while I go on a minor rant.

I came of age in the late 60's and there were exactly the same problems then. Alcohol, pot, quaaludes, sopors, bennies, tuinals, reds, blacks, acid (windowpane, blotter, orange cube, sunshine, barrels and microdot, owsley was the best), mescaline, psilocybin, heroin, crank, "t" and that's just the ones my drug fried brain can remember right off the top of my pointy little head.

The only one on that list that I didn't try was heroin, I never liked downers or pcp or "t" so I only did those one or two times. I smoked pot heavily and still indulge from time to time, dropped acid whenever I could get it, those were my two favorites.

I don't care for downers and alcohol is a downer so I didn't drink all that often and when I did I usually puked, nasty stuff IMHO.

One point I would like to make about alcohol is that alcohol *is* a drug and the phrase "alcohol and drugs" is redundant and designed to make alcohol appear "different" somehow and not really a drug. Furthermore, alcohol is slightly more addictive than heroin and more addictive than both crank and cocaine according to In Health magazine, Nov/Dec 1990

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/MISC/addictiv.htm

I met my wife in '74, she was a major druggie too, we got married in '77 and continued partying hearty until '80 when she got pregnant. Then we stopped everything but the occasional joint. I never smoked cigarettes and my wife quit them when she found out she was pregnant and never started again. The whole time we were major partyers we were both gainfully employed, paid our bills on time and never got in any kind of trouble.

Nowadays we are a reasonably successful middle class couple, own our own modest home in a decent but not fancy mixed race subdivision. Our daughter is married seven years now and is a stay at home mom with three great kids, our grandchildren. About two years after our daughter got married, my sheriffs' son, former Marine, straight arrow son in law casually told me that he "got baked" every day on the way to high school his junior and senior years. Even heavy drug use doesn't mean that the person is necessarily going to screw up their whole life.

The point I'm trying to make is that the more things change, the more they stay the same. One of the reasons that alcohol prohibition was ended is that so many children were coming to school drunk, prohibition actually made the teenage drinking problem *worse*, and remember that this was back in the 1920s.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-157.html

To tell you the truth, alcohol testing in the schools isn't going to do much good. Once a person stops drinking the kidneys eliminate the equivalent of about one beer per hour, so even if someone is fairly drunk the night before, there won't be much alcohol in their urine the next day. Kids these days know how to search the intertubes and they will quickly find out that they can get stone cold drunk on their asses Friday and Saturday nights and still test clean for alcohol on Monday morning. It took me all of about twenty seconds to Google the information.

http://www.marshfieldlaboratories.org/nida/alcurine.pdf

Just like Eve with the apple, forbidden fruit is always the most tempting. Telling kids to "just say no" does not work.

http://www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/Library/daremenu.htm

"The final edition of the largest evaluation of the DARE program has concluded that the Anti-Drug program does not reduce drug use, and in at least category of pot, the DARE graduates smoked more frequently than the control."

So if DARE doesn't work what does? Darn if I know, but judging by the evidence alcohol testing in the schools isn't going to do much and may even be counterproductive. The deleterious effects of drug testing on civil liberties and societal attitudes toward personal freedom are definitely something to weigh against any marginal possible gains from drug testing.

Anyhoo.. Thanks for reading my rant and I hope I haven't upset you.

Once again I would like to offer my sympathies for your loss and hope that your pain becomes less acute over time.

Sometimes I get tired just smilin'

[JVS]

166. FREEDOM!