Venezuela asks Interpol to arrest openly critical TV station's owner

[davidinalameda]

Venezuela has asked Interpol to arrest the owner of the only TV station still openly critical of leftist President Hugo Chavez, the government announced Friday.

Guillermo Zuloaga, president of Globovision, is accused of illegally storing vehicles with the intent to sell them for a profit, the Venezuelan government said when it issued an arrest warrant last week. His son, also named Guillermo, also is wanted.

Zuloaga and his son have said that he is being persecuted for political purposes and that the charges are trumped up.

He is reported to have left the country, and Venezuela asked the international police agency to arrest him and his son.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/06/18/venezuela.interpol.warrant/index.html

[TexasObserver]

1. Hugo Chavez is looking more like the dictator from Bananas all the time.

From now on, everyone will wear their underwear on the outside.

[The Magistrate]

2. Try This Head-Line, Sir: Columbian Army Murders Thousands For Bounty Money

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0619/1224272868802.html

If you are looking for something Latin American to express some outrage over....

[davidinalameda]

4. do you have a point

or are you just being a Chavez apologist

killing people is horrible too

is that what you want

[The Magistrate]

11. A Sense Of Proportion is Helpful, Sir....

Under a right-wing elected president in Columbia, thousands are killed by government agencies, without even a pretext of guilt, let alone due process or trial.

Under a left wing elected president in Venezuela, a handful of political opponents, many of whom actually participated in a coup against the elected government, are harassed or arrested on various pretexts.

You express great outrage at the latter, and express irritation at a reminder of the former.

That would seem to be an adequate measure of your concern with human rights and liberty and decent behavior by a government towards its citizenry.

[Dorian Gray]

69. I think the irritation at the latter

comes into play because too many people see Chavez as a hero. I think that we would all agree that the Columbian/Uribe right wing government is a farcical travesty.

Frustration comes when people excuse questionable actions of the left-wing Socialist government of Chavez.

[cowman]

71. What you said.

But there are people here who would excuse Chavez for anything he did. I call them Cafe Revolutionaries.

[Dorian Gray]

230. It's befuddling

I can understand defending him, even, but doing so in proportion to how bad Uribe is makes the whole argument look like he doesn't have any real arguments in support of Chavez. "Oh look! How can you say Chavez is bad when Uribe is so much worse! If you say you hate Chavez, then you support Uribe! You right winger, you!" It's ridiculous.

[The Magistrate]

233. Again, Ma'am, It Is A Question of Proportion And Selectivity Of Focus

What is ridiculous is the exaggerated obloquy directed at Col. Chavez, by a crew of regulars who studiously ignore events of far graver character, and who yet proclaim themselves affronted by 'violations of human rights' committed by Col. Chavez, rather than by the left character of his regime. Under pressure, over time, denunciation of 'socialism' has emerged from most of this crew, and established the real motive of their assaults on Col. Chavez. There is nothing wrong with disliking socialism, but it is tricky on a left-oriented forum to present oneself both as a left and progressive person and an opponent of socialist revolution in a Latin American country; not many people have the chops to carry it off....

[Old Troop]

393. I agree. Perhaps you could make an argument like this: "the US

imprisonment of Japanese Americans during WWII isn't such a bad thing when you compare it to the NAZI extermination camps". The fact is that they are both distinct crimes and condemning the one doesn't lessen the import of the other.

[The Magistrate]

81. Nowhere Near Good Enough, Sir

Mass killings contrasted to a handful of arrests and confiscations of property.

If the outrage at the latter is markedly greater than at the former, there is a problem, and that problem is not with Col. Chavez, or people who support his government.

[Dreamer Tatum]

136. Actually, it's far more than good enough.

The issue in the OP is the utterly fascist actions of Hugo Chavez. You're the one who misdirected with irrelevant data from Colombia.

Dislike of Chavez does not equal support of Colombia. OK, "sir?"

[The Magistrate]

141. Not Really, Sir

In this situation, extremities of criticism directed to Col. Chavez do equate to effective support for the Uribe government. That some are embarrassed by having the wool pulled off them does not trouble me.

[Dreamer Tatum]

143. Bullshit.

What you MEAN to say is that you don't like that people are calling out Chavez and not Uribe at the same time or in equal measure.

It's crystal clear to everyone other than you.

[The Magistrate]

148. In the Face Of Such Eloquence, Sir, What Can A Man Hope To Do?

It is my practice to apportion my anger; systematic murder en masse provokes me to much more anger than does trumped up charges of economic crimes....

[Dreamer Tatum]

149. Thank the heavens you're not a judge, then. nt

[The Magistrate]

153. So You Are In the Same Penalty Regardless Of The Crime Camp, Then, Sir?

You do not feel a murderer should be punished more strictly than a pick-pocket?

That is pretty much the gist of what you are maintaining here now....

[Dreamer Tatum]

186. Your entire argument is based on a logical fallacy. nt

[The Magistrate]

187. My Ignorance And Illogic Are Legend Here, Sir

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JackRiddler]

406. "Utterly fascist"!

Harrassment of a media mogul who helped engineer a foreign-backed coup against the elected government - he should have been in prison for the last eight years - is "utterly fascist." I wouldn't even call Colombia "utterly fascist," and that regime has killed thousands of people. Your rhetoric removes any credibility you imagine to have.

[Dorian Gray]

229. As someone else said down thread

(Props to NeedleCast, I believe) Just because Dominoes Pizza is worse than Pizza Hut, it doesn't mean I have to like Pizza Hut Pizza. They both stink. The degree to which matters in that one is a crime upon humanity while the other is upheld as a virtuous model of what Pizza should be.

[sabrina 1]

340. Who sees Chavez as a hero? I see these statements about

people seeing someone they may defend from false accusations as a 'hero' all the time. It is such a childish statement.

Chavez is a duly elected president of his country, very popular with his own people. He has allowed many of those who, backed by our CIA, tried to topple his elected government, be treated far more kindly than such individuals would be treated here, or anywhere else, were they to remove the president, even Bush, from office.

It's telling that you are as pointed out, more irritated that people defend someone who is a target of rightwing propaganda in this country, mainly because he dared to nationalize Venezuela's resources and use the profits to benefit the people of Venezuela.

The reason people defend Chavez against these routine propaganda 'news' clips, such as this one, is because we have seen it before, against another oil producing country which was not cooperating with our friends in Big Oil and because Americans blindly accepted the propaganda, over one million people died, many were tortured and imprisoned wrongfully (speaking of 'dictatorships') and we lost thousands of our own troops while fighting yet another Oil Corporation War.

If you do not see why we get these ridiculous posts about Oil Producing Venezuela's democratically elected government from our very own propaganda machine known as the U.S. Media, then I can excuse your confusion.

Otoh, maybe you are one of those who believe that Arabs, Muslims and South Americans have no business sitting on OUR oil and support the propaganda that will lead the American people once again, to support yet more aggression against a sovereign state because we want their oil for our buddies and it appears lately, bosses, Big Oil. I don't know which it is, but regardless, every time you get irritated at people who fight the propaganda you are helping take the U.S. closer to another illegal assault on an oil-producing country.

[backwoodsbob]

109. how many here cheer on Columbia?

How many here cheer on Hugo?

[The Magistrate]

112. So What, Sir? Who Here Denounces Them At Any Length?

Particularly, who among the regular opponents of Col. Chavez here denounces them at any length?

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

279. "FAIR finds editors downplaying Colombia’s abuses, amplifying Venezuela’s"

Extra! February 2009

FAIR Study: Human Rights Coverage Serving Washington’s Needs
FAIR finds editors downplaying Colombia’s abuses, amplifying Venezuela’s

By Steve Rendall and Daniel Ward and Tess Hall

Any evenhanded comparison of the Colombian and Venezuelan governments’ human rights records would have to note that, though Venezuela’s record is far from perfect, that country is by every measure a safer place than Colombia to live, vote, organize unions and political groups, speak out against the government or practice journalism.

But a new survey by FAIR shows that, over the past 10 years, editors at four leading U.S. newspapers have focused more on purported human rights abuses in Venezuela than in Colombia, and their commentary would suggest that Venezuela’s government has a worse human rights record than Colombia’s. These papers, FAIR found, seem more interested in reinforcing official U.S. policy toward the region than in genuinely supporting the rights of Colombians and Venezuelans.

Colombia’s ‘appalling’ record . . .

Over the past 40 years, Colombia has been known for its rampant human rights violations, untouchable drug cartels, government-linked death squads and violent guerrilla groups. The principal specialist on Colombia for the nonprofit group Human Rights Watch (HRW), Maria McFarland Sanchez-Moreno, told Congress (4/23/07), “Colombia presents the worst human rights and humanitarian crisis in the Western Hemisphere.” She also noted that government-linked paramilitary groups are largely responsible for Colombia’s grim status.

Though Colombia is not the chaotic state it was in the late 1980s and early ‘90s, and violence and repression have not been uniform, HRW’s Americas director José Miguel Vivanco has called Colombia’s current human rights situation “appalling” (Human Rights Watch, 1/22/08).

Killings of civilians by uniformed Colombian military and police totaled 329 in 2007 (Los Angeles Times, 8/21/08), and the country’s unfolding “para-political” scandals have revealed “links between rightist death squads and dozens of officials loyal to President Álvaro Uribe” (Boston Globe, 12/14/06). Everyone from senators to cabinet members to judges have been implicated—even Colombia’s top general, Mario Montoya, whom the Washington Post (9/17/08) described as “a trusted caretaker of the sizable aid package Washington provides Colombia’s army.”

A 2005 report by the Colombian Commission of Jurists (6/21/05) estimated paramilitaries have killed at least 13,000 people since 1996 alone.

The country is, in Sánchez-Moreno’s words (4/23/07), “the murder capital of the world for trade unionists”; estimates of the number of unionists killed in the last two decades range from 2,700 (Human Rights Watch, 11/20/08) to 4,000 (AFL-CIO Solidarity Center, 6/06; U.S. State Department, cited in Miami Herald, 4/16/07).

Journalists have not fared much better. In 2001, the Committee to Protect Journalists described Colombia as “by far the most dangerous country in Latin America for journalists” (New York Times, 7/12/01). According to recent statistics by the organization (12/31/08), there were 40 journalists killed in Colombia from January 1992 until January 2009, making it the fourth-deadliest country during that period, following Iraq (137), Algeria (60) and Russia (49).

. . . vs. ‘relatively open’ Venezuela

~snip~
When all is said and done, though, Vivanco described Venezuela as a “relatively open society” (New York Times, 9/19/08), and HRW’s report pointed out that, excluding the court-packing charge, “the most dramatic setback” to Venezuelan democracy was the 2002 coup that temporarily removed Chávez from office—an action cheered by both the White House and many U.S. newspaper editors (L.A. Times, 4/17/02; New York Times, 4/13/02; Chicago Tribune, 4/14/02).

More:
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3699

[The Magistrate]

282. The HELL You Say, Ma'am....

[Tempest]

335. The media has been compliant in pushing the govt. line for decades

This is nothing new.

[SoxFan]

184. Don't pick on Hugo the Binkie

He's above criticism for some folks.

[TexasObserver]

5. No, thanks. I'm interested in talking about crazy dictators.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. Dictators are not elected in open fair elections.

You seem to be interested in pushing a warped rightwing US media view of Chavez that is not actually based on facts.

[WeDidIt]

10. So when was there ever an open and fair election in Venezuela

From what I've seen, not since Chavez gained power.

[Better Believe It]

17. When was Chavez appointed President by their Supreme Court?

What has he won now, three elections by solid majorities and not appointed once by their Supreme Court.

Before you lecture Venezuela on civil liberties and democratic elections how about cleaning up things in the United States first.

Perhaps you have failed to notice the decades long effort to undermine and destroy our civil liberties which continues today.

[WeDidIt]

47. It's pretty easy to "win" an "election"

when you shut down all means of communication for the opposition.

Thuggery does not equate to free and fair elections, no matter who commits the thuggery.

At least we utilized a court solution in the United States regardless of whether I agreed with the decision. Nobody had all means of communication shut down throughout the election in 2000.

[Warren Stupidity]

121. "when you shut down all means of communication for the opposition."

It is pretty easy to make an argument when you are not restricted by facts. Now you get to document when the Chavez regime "shut down all means of communication by the opposition". Be specific. Dates, links, etc.

[Better Believe It]

216. In Venezula you need the highest number of votes to be elected. In the United States you don't

in our President election. In fact, you caneven lose an election if you get the most votes and the other main candidate (Bush) can be appointed President by the Supreme Court.

Right, lecture me all about democratic elections.

And I know why you failed to provide a credible progressive link when you claimed that Chavez shut down "all means of communication" and used "thugs" in order to win his elections.

You failed to provide a credible link because that assertion is total b.s. and can't be proven.

Isn't that right?

If it's true, provide the links .... from some non-right-wing credible source.

Thanks.

[Judi Lynn]

270. It would be a sorely needed awakening for DU'ers if you would just bring your references

to this thread and post them. It would be a public service if you revealed just how tightly Hugo Chavez controls the media in Venezuela, and keeps Venezuelans in the dark about himself, about his government.

Don't just make the claim, back it up.

[Tempest]

337. He can't

But you knew that already. :evilgrin:

[Recursion]

283. Err.. The opposition still owns most of the media

Chavez has a talk show that he cancels six months before any election so as not to get free airtime.

Are you sure you're thinking of Venezuela?

[ChangoLoa]

305. Completely wrong, the government owns most of the visual media... by far

Chavez uses "cadenas" (mandatory TV broadcast for ALL TV stations) to get AT LEAST 10 hours of broadcast a week during electoral periods. Of course, cadenas stop during the last week of the electoral periods. Yesterday's cadena lasted for 5 hours. Do you watch Venezuelan TV? I do everyday.

Also, he doesn't cancel Alo Presidente six months before elections. Who told you that? The next elections are in 3 months and Alo Presidente is still on. Do you need proof?

Last week's Alo Presidente's announcement:
http://www.vtv.gov.ve/videos-destacadas-en-video/37406

Extract from the show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tWhEDBpDDA&feature=related

I suggest you go and watch it in VTV (govt's main TV station) this evening around 6 (I think). Here's the link:
http://www.vtv.gob.ve/envivo.html

Otherwise, there are 10 open air nationwide TV stations in Venezuela. One is opposition and SIX are government's.

The only media where opposition has a majority is the press, but Venezuela is a country with a very reduced number of press readers.

[Tempest]

336. You're ignorant of the facts

shut down all means of communication for the opposition

A lie. Globovision and other opposition stations were never closed before or during the elections.


Nobody had all means of communication shut down throughout the election in 2000.

Didn't happen in Venezuela either.


Chavez's elections have been monitored by several international groups and not one group said there were signs of any kind of fraud or deception.

[Judi Lynn]

359. It's simply sad to see that. After all this time there's no excuse for them to be so wildly wrong!

It's a complete embarrassment to see those feeble, impossibly stupid insinuatations.

They always are exposed: that's why they all rush to these threads and try to build a loud, scruffy, hostile base to scare off people who don't want to end up spending far more time than they want to waste dragging out the FACTS which prove the wingers wrong.

It's as if they attempt to build a "human" chain to intimidate DU'ers who are in touch with the truth from getting the actual information down on the thread.

It's never really worked yet to any significant degree, from what I've seen. There are just too many people who know the truth by now.

[Catherina]

376. It's pretty easy just to "make stuff up" too n/t

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

118. Please present the credible evidence that Chavez was not elected

in fair and open elections. The elections were monitored by international organizations and were determined to be fair. So, since you have 'seen' otherwise, please do present your evidence. Both the OAS and the Carter Center certified the 2006 election, and the Carter Center certified the 1998 election.

While you are busy explaining how these elections were bogus, please also explain how Chavez lost the referendum 2007. Was that just to confuse us? Very tricky these dictators.

You should get your talking points straight. You are supposed to walk away from the 'he's a dictator' canard when challenged over the established facts on the elections of 98 and 06, and move on to the horrors of re-nationalization or Chavez's willingness to entertain Ahmadinejad.

[The Magistrate]

215. Of Course, Sir, He Cannot Possibly Do That, Since No Such Evidence Exists

Indeed, all available evidence is that Col. Chavez was freely elected, and is widely popular with the people of Venezuela.

[BolivarianHero]

220. Moreover...

Polls from independent firms showed Chavez up by between 10 and 35 points in the run-up to his 2005 victory over Rosales (who pretended to be a social democrat). He won by 26.

[Greyhound]

218. What have you seen? How about these reports from the observers from the Carter Center

going back through http://www.cartercenter.org/news/publications/election_reports.html#venezuela">every election since 1999? Each certifies that Venezuelan elections have been far more honest than ours.

You just repeat whatever you hear, don't you?

[The Magistrate]

13. In Other Words, Sir: You Have Not the Slightest Interest In Human Rights Or Liberty

A right-wing government c an murder thousands without drawing even a disapproving murmur from you, but a leftist government that arrests a few political opponents is run by a 'crazy dictator' you will happily spend an afternoon disparaging.

[TexasObserver]

28. I have no interest in following you down the rabbit trail of your choosing.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cowman]

34. So he says

How do you know that he hasn't made trumped up charges sir?

[The Magistrate]

37. The Tax Evasion Charges, Sir, May Well Be Trumped Up

The participation in the coup is well known, from the rebel's own mouth.

Using a pretext to arrest a rebel does not trouble me much; compared to the government sanctioned torture and murder of thousands of innocent citizens, as occurs next door in Columbia, it troubles me not at all.

[cowman]

39. Once again

What the fuck does that have to do with Chavez?
I find in just amazing that everytime someone critizes Chavez, invariably someone just like you brings up the atrocities committed in Colombia, why is that, sir?
Oh, BTW, you have no problem with possible trumped up charges? I wonder how you would feel if someone did the same thing to you, after all, according to you, you have no problem with it

[The Magistrate]

44. To Illustrate, Sir, Your Extraordinarily Poor Sense Of Proportion

You proclaim yourself boggled in horror at a few arrests and confiscations, but cannot bring yourself to express anything but irritation at being reminded that right next door, a government is routinely torturing and murdering thousands.

That sort of selectivity and disproportion in outrage establishes the worth of any claim a person might make to be a defender of human rights and liberty.

[Braulio]

46. It's not a tax evasion charge, as far as I know

The charge is to own 20 vehicles, keep them in his private home, to be sold at a later date, or to be used as flower pots. I don't know for sure. But I never heard anybody say it was about tax evasion. Where did you hear that?

[The Magistrate]

52. That Is The Purpose Of the Sequestration, Sir

At least as the law at present in Venezuela conceives it.

Rather like having a quantity a marijuana and a number of small baggies is construed as intent to distribute, on its face.

The law may well be unjust. On my list of things to be troubled by today, though, that ranks pretty low. It ranks well below the news that thousands were murdered by the Columbian army for bounty money, paid for 'dead guerrillas', who were actually just young men snatched up off the street and shot dead....

[Braulio]

105. My Venezuelan friends say that's not so

Accoding to Venezuelan friends, the law there doesn't conceive it that way. But I wonder, don't you think it's stupid to have such a law? And if it exists, isn't it stupid to try to enforce it? And isn't it even more stupid if it creates the impression the government is enforcing this theoretical law to jail media personalities who don't agree with them? This case is truly bizarre, isn't it?

Regarding the other comments you make, I believe this thread is about the Venezuelan case. I notice you do not seem interested in keeping within the subject at hand. I happen to be a strong supporter of President Lula, but I don't think this makes an iota of sense to discuss in this case either. So why don't we discuss subjects separately? I suggest you could start a different one to discuss Colombian human rights abuses, or other such themes one can consider within the Latin American scene.

[The Magistrate]

111. Participate In A Coup, Sir, You Will Face Consequences For Failure

People should not get into that business if they are not wiling to face them.

Then point of forcing comment to Colombia here is to highlight the highly selective nature of the outrage, or rather poutrage, put on display by most critics of Col. Chavez here. They pour out extremes of denunciation over trifles in Venezuela, while studiously ignoring and avoiding enormities in a neighboring country. The fact is, many do not oppose human rights violations, or human rights violations in Venezuela; they oppose the presence of a left, quasi-socialist government in Latin America, and think it a useful ploy to express high dudgeon at various 'violations of human rights' in Venezuela. It doubtless imposes on a number of people who do not think things through....

[laughingliberal]

387. I find it telling we never see OP's here about Uribe but regular Anti-Chavez posts.

I regularly see posters here swallowing down any anti-Chavez snippet they find printed by a media we know never gives even the Democrats in our own country a break as if it's gospel.

I have to wonder, as you did, if the crux of the problem is not that Chavez sits on the oil they believe belongs to the big oil companies. I'm convinced it is the motivation behind the anti-Chavez press and am amazed to see DUers buying into it.

I appreciate your pointig out the discrepancy.

[The Magistrate]

389. The Pattern, Ma'am, Does Seem To Cry Out For An Explaination

[TexasObserver]

61. Nothing in my posts are a basis for your comments.

I'm not interested in your attempt to hijack this thread, and don't really care why you're on this side path. Start a thread on your topic, and if I'm interested, I'll discuss it in that thread.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

80. boring

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

269. Actually, Sir, Your Comments In No. 5 Above Give Clear Grounds For Stating

That your interest here is not to uphold human rights or liberty, but to attack a left government, using human rights and liberty as a convenient rhetorical tool. If the case were otherwise, you would have not balked at acknowledging the scope and depth of atrocity committed in neighboring Colombia, and would have acknowledged that what was charged against Col. Chavez was of far less gravity.

[cowman]

64. Wow, he uses big words

I'm just a dumb ole Firefighter/Paramedic who knows right from wrong and I use simple words. I guess thats whe he has the handle that he has.

[The Magistrate]

67. Let Me Get This Straight, Sir: You Are Saying "I'm Ignorant, So I Must Be Right In This Argument'?

"The mind wobbles...."

[cowman]

75. Wow, you just used simple words

Congrats.
I didn't say you were ignorant, but I do think that you look down your nose at people with other opinions that don't match yours.
If I'm wrong, I apologize, but I don't think I'm wrong.

[The Magistrate]

86. You have Tangled Yourself Up, Sir, Far Past Anyone's Powers To Extract You

[cowman]

96. Thats your opinion

and as far as I am concerned, it's like mind over matter, I don't mind because your opinion of me doesn't matter.

[The Magistrate]

98. Learnt that One Knee-High To A Grass-Hopper, Did You, Sir?

"I once shot a tiger in my pajamas. How it got there I'll never understand."

[cowman]

106. Yep

once again your high and mighty attitude is showing

[NeedleCast]

90. Possibly the biggest straw man ever thrown up on DU

[The Magistrate]

95. Chanting 'Straw Man! Straw Man!' Impresses No One, Sir, And Gets You Nowhere

The point is a valid one, and no one confronted by it has yet refuted it.

Those criticizing Col. Chavez in this display a selectivity and disproportion in outrage sufficient to establish they have no genuine interest in protesting outrages against human rights and liberty, but only employ these things as a rhetorical cudgel against a left government they disapprove of. If this were not the case, they would be expressing outrage at the grotesque levels of atrocity routine in Colombia at present, rather than the trifles occurring in Venezuela.

[cowman]

103. Hey genius

this thread is about Chavez not Colombia. I don't express, in your opinion, sufficient outrage about the atrocities in Colombia because the thread is about Chavez

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NeedleCast]

108. At risk of validating this straw man, I'll explain

You entered a thread about Chavez. Your first response in this thread is to point out that Columbia's government is worse. Despite the fact that has nothing to do with the original post, and is, at best, a thread-jacking and at worst some bizarre attempt to deflect criticism of Chavez by point out that somewhere else in South America, something worse is happening.

It has nothing to do with a selective and disproportioned sense of outrage. If I started a thread to complain about the quality of pizza at Pizza Hut would you feel a need to enter the thread, tell us that Domino's pizza is worse, and then insist we all talk about Domino's? That's all you've done here.

Your argument is a huge, gigantic, blazing, unquestionable straw man. Ten years from now, Law professors will use your posts in this thread to introduce students to the concept of straw man to their students. If there were a World Wide Web international award for straw man of the year, you'd win it.

Your argument is a straw man. If you wish to talk about the brutal government in Columbia, go start a thread about it.

You're welcome to continue your straw man argument at your leisure. I'll be discussing the OP if you'd like to join in at some point.

[COLGATE4]

113. Hear Hear!

Absolutely correct.

[The Magistrate]

114. Entered It At the First Post, Sir, Recognizing the Usual Cast was Assembling

The story linked to languished in the L.B.N. forum, without attracting a single comment from the various defenders of human rights who cluster so eagerly and frequently to attack Col. Chavez over an arrest or two.

This made it an ideal case to demonstrate the selectivity and disproportion of the outrage shown by those persons, and they have played up trumps in the course of this exchange, demonstrating for anyone who reads this to see that they have, in fact, no interest whatever in upholding human rights and liberty, but only seek opportunity to attack a left government in Latin America.

[NeedleCast]

120. Still Straw, Still Growing

As a former moderator, I'd expect you to understand why people would become annoyed when you post an obvious straw man then proceed to run up and down the entirety of the thread, stacking bales of straw higher and higher. I'm sure you're aware of the nature of thread-jacking and I'm sure you responded to cases of it while you were a moderator.

You have, of course, succeeded in completely hijacking the thread, and I have no question that this was your purpose all along. As much as you wail and gnash and flay yourself, I searched the first few pages of General Discussions and find no threads started by your decrying the fate of the common man in Columbia under it's oppressive government. Yet you claim to feel so strongly about the subject that you seem incapable of tolerating discussion on anything else.

Everyone who has called you out in this thread as posing a straw man argument is right despite your repeated attempts to deflect.

Out there elsewhere on the internet there's a huge collection of straw man posts clustered around their monitors going "Holy Shit that's the biggest straw man ever!" All other straw men wish to be you and all other logical fallacies wish to be straw men...thanks to you.

[The Magistrate]

One Cannot Make Bricks Without Straw, Sir, And Brick-Bats Are Useful When Skulls Are Thick

It does not bother me if people are annoyed when a light is shone on what a shoddy business they are up to in their posturings regarding Venezuela and the government of Col. Chavez.

[NeedleCast]

124. I'm glad you're proud of your straw man

It is, as I have stated, a thing of massive size and golden-hued straw-y goodness. No one questions your excellent use of logical fallacy. You have, indeed, shown us all the power of such non-arguments. Someday, when my niece and nephew say to me "Uncle Needlecast, we need a whopper of a straw man argument" I'll be able to tell them "no worries, I know a guy on DU..."

The fact that it has nothing at all to do with the OP, is, of course, the bigger point.

[The Magistrate]

126. Keep The Demonstration To the Top, Sir, And You Will Have My Continued Thanks

The display of selectivity and disproportion in outrage establishing that the regular opponents of Col. Chavez here have no genuine interest in protesting outrages against human rights and liberty, but only employ these things as a rhetorical cudgel against a left government they disapprove of, should have as wide a circulation as can be contrived.

[NeedleCast]

127. Thanks, that's all I needed!

With the help of your endless supply of straw and the hot air generated by the bullshit you've spewed defending your non-argument, I've built a fully functional hot air balloon in my back yard and am leaving on holiday!

Enjoy your thread-jacking.

[The Magistrate]

128. Wear It In Good Health, Sir: Just Keep Kicking the Thing....

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

[TexasObserver]

133. Well said.

A blatant thread jack attempt, and a stream of personal attacks against everyone who spoke against it.

[Catherina]

377. Astute observation n/t

[apocalypsehow]

183. Spot on reply, and 100% correct. And it stands unrefuted. Well done. n/t.

[Dorian Gray]

226. +1

[dionysus]

390. !

:spray:

:thumbsup:

[Dorian Gray]

225. Your argument is ridiculous

Why? Because one can be outraged at different things at the same time.

"Oh no! We can't possibly care about the plight of a kidnapped 5 year old because there is OIL spilling into the Gulf! The first detracts from the second!"

While Colombia and Venezuela are in conflict, the actions of both government organizations are separate entities. They both behave in ways that are suspect. The degree to which isn't important. I don't think anyone here would defend Uribe's death squads and right wing military tactics. People here DO defend Chavez's actions, regardless of what they are. Criticism of Chavez DOES NOT equate to support for Uribe. That is a straw man, and the blatant use of it in this thread is insulting.

[The Magistrate]

231. Nonesense, Ma'am: It is Merely Unpalatable To Persons Engaged In Moral Imposturing It Exposes

The statement that the degree of violation by either party is unimportant is an amazing confession on your part. It establishes that you see no difference worth mentioning between several thousand torturous murders and the seeking of an international want and watch regarding an arrest warrant. It is hard to know how to address a person who takes so peculiar a view of things as you have clearly stated you do. You may forgive me for maintaining my adherence to a traditional outlook, that regards mass torture and murder as greater wrongs, more worthy of my time and effort in condemnation, than whatever wrong may attend the seeking of international police co-operation in apprehending a fugitive black-marketeer....

[apocalypsehow]

349. You've gotten the worst of all these exchanges - every single one of them - and yet you linger.

Some folks just never learned how to blush, I reckon.

[The Magistrate]

351. You have A Very High Opinion Of Yourself, Sir

Your 'profile comment' is straight out of a textbook:

"More likely than not you are here because I have bested you in some thread debate, and a sense of pitiful frustration at your own shockingly limited intellect in comparison to mine has angered you greatly. You are here hoping to find some "personal" info to attack me with, as is the wont of those on the losing end of internet debates - ridiculing my occupation, my hometown, my marital status, etc. Sucks to be you, huh?"

[apocalypsehow]

383. Indeed, I do - and given your reply to this post of mine I'm reassured, again, that it's justified.

Thanks!

:thumbsup: :beer:

[The Magistrate]

384. Why Not Just Call Yourself The Scofield Kid, Sir, Let Us All Know What A Steel-Eye Shootist You Are

[apocalypsehow]

385. More like Little Bill - with you in the uneviable role of English Bob. Sir. n/t.

[The Magistrate]

386. You Barely Beat Watching Paint Dry, Sir....

Still, on-lookers will require some entertainment....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCpekvOkwNM

[TexasObserver]

101. Impressive call.

Good insight.

[The Magistrate]

104. Shopworn Manouver, Sir, One Of the Most Thread-Bare Moves In the Art....

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

179. You don't impress anyone but yourself with that nonstop blather.

blath·er   /ˈblæðər/ Show Spelled Show IPA
–noun
1. foolish, voluble talk: His speech was full of the most amazing blather.
–verb (used without object), verb (used with object)
2. to talk or utter foolishly; blither; babble: The poor thing blathered for hours about the intricacies of his psyche.

[The Magistrate]

180. A Man Must Bear Up Under A Great Many Things In This Life, Sir

Be content you have added somewhat to my burdens....

[TexasObserver]

182. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

234. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

237. You Have, Sir, Edited Out The Worst Of the Personal Attacks, It Seems

Still, enough remains to make it clear you have nothing in the way of argument to proffer, but only abuse of an exceedingly low grade....

[TexasObserver]

238. You relentlessly attack others, and claim you're attacked.

Please step back and take a look at what you're doing.

It's ugly.

[The Magistrate]

239. Three Genuine Personal Attacks Have Appeared In This Thread, Sir

All were directed at me, by persons annoyed at the interruption to the group-hate of Col. Chavez they had hoped to indulge in: one, which described me as 'an asshole', has been removed, the other two, which call me 'a moron' and 'full of shit' remain, as I have not bothered to alert on them, since they tell far more against the fellow who made them than they possibly could against me. You, before you had second thoughts and edited, called me insane and a few other choice similar things in the post immediately above.

These things are personal attacks under the rules of this site, which, having been a moderator for several years, are quite familiar to me.

Pointing out flaws in a person's position on some matter, highlighting moral inconsistencies, showing up flawed reasoning, and responding to attempts at ridicule with good humor, are not personal attacks. They may make people uncomfortable, particularly people who are not used to much opposition, and that dogged and earnest, but that does make them violations of the rules.

[Name removed]

240. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

241. You Seem Uncomfortable With Facts, Sir, And With Your Own Behavior

"It is difficult to describe a stranger without describing yourself."

[TexasObserver]

243. You seem to lack a grasp on this topic.

[The Magistrate]

249. You Will have To Hold Up Your End Much Better, Sir, If You Want My Interest To Continue....

"The bleatin' o' the kid incites the tyger."

[cowman]

271. I'll tell you what

I'll alert on my own posts so that way you cant use me as a whipping boy anymore.
BTW you saying that our position of you trying to hijack this thread are flaws makes you an elitist. I could care less how you think of Chavez or Colombia, but don't hijack the thread with another topic that has absolutly nothing to do with the discussion at hand

[The Magistrate]

275. Oh Dear Lord, You Are Calling Me An Elitist...You Really, Truly Are

And what is more, you think it is a telling charge, that ought to put me in my place, and make me shut my mouth. And you do it with flawed grammar, too, which makes it absolutely charming....

Nobody has ever so thoroughly undermined their own credibility in dispute with me in the last eight years. Sir, you take the biscuit; hell, you take the whole dozen of them.

[Name removed]

284. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

248. You've spammed that same paragraph at least 10 times this thread.

It's against the rules. Look it up.

[The Magistrate]

250. The Statement was In All Instances An Appropriate Reply, Sir

Repetition is a useful device in persuasive argument; people remember what is repeated, and what people remember influences their thinking on subjects the memory touches.

[TexasObserver]

252. "Do not spam the message board by posting the same message repeatedly,"

[The Magistrate]

255. We Generally Applied That To Starting Topics, Sir

Cannot recall off-hand a single instance in four years when it was applied to commentary within a thread.

[TexasObserver]

247. Your thread jacking is the only "shopworn Manouver" (sic) on this thread.

[WinkyDink]

33. Colombian.

[Dorian Gray]

66. Perhaps both stories

are worthy of outrage.

[The Magistrate]

In Due Proportion, Sir, Certainly: Outrage For Thousands Of Murders Ought To Be Larger, Eh?

Larger by a great deal, you would doubtless agree....

[Dorian Gray]

227. Please refer to me as Ma'am

or Madame. Either way, I agree Uribe is worse than Chavez. I still think Chavez is a tool.

[Lagomorph]

364. Well, that whole...

...80,000 tones of food rotting in Venezuelan government warehouses is a pretty good pisser-offer, too.

Let's face it, a lot those "socialist movements" have been reduced to drug smuggling operations and the resulting violence. Some socialism is a good thing. Without it, we wouldn't have things like standards. Standards is a huge thing. An inch is an inch everywhere in the country. Nationwide 110V house current, quality standards that we actually enforce...it's endless what we've done with the socialist tools we do have.

I don't think the rest of the world gives a damn about American ideals. They seem to be interested in immediate results, something we haven't really demonstrated all that well. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but a lot of the world is much closer to hunger and death than we are, let alone nationwide electricity.

[snooper2]

375. do you talk like that to people in public? I've always wondered that

To the guy in front of you in line...

You dropped your thyme, Sir



To the guy backing out of a parking spot...

I was almost smathered all over the street by your car, Sir



To the lady at the DMV...

My insurance is up to date and will expire on 08-13-10 at 1200 hours, Sir



:rofl:

[dionysus]

391. OH MY GOD

:spray::spray::spray::spray::spray::spray:

DUzy!!!!!!!

[Tempest]

3. Zuloaga is a piece of shit

He should have been thrown in prison when he used Globovision to openly call for a violent overthrow of the government.

[TexasObserver]

7. Whether that is true or not has no bearing on Hugo Chavez being crazy.

He's batshit crazy.

[LaFeminist]

12. Do you think the charges against this man are true or false?

And tell me what evidence you have seen to support your answer. Thanks.

[The Magistrate]

14. In Columbia, Sir, He Would Be Screaming For Hours, Then Shot through the Head

If he was lucky....

[COLGATE4]

115. I am tired unto death

hearing this incessant preaching about the horrors of the government in Colombia from people who have established no bona fides todiscuss the issues, aside from enthusiastically using every opportunity, however remote to link to every anti-Colombian articile published in God-knows-what press from somewhere. What particular expertise do you presume to call upon in order to make these blanket assertions? Have you lived in Colombia? Even visited Colombia? (Presumably not, since you don't seem to be able to spell its name correctly. It's Colombia, not "Columbia".) But don't worry - calling yourself the "Magistrate" and throwing in a few "Sirs" will give the prouncement the gravitas it otherwise lacks.

[The Magistrate]

117. You Know, Sir, Police Cells In Barranquilla Get Damned Hot....

"Never send a ferret to do a weasel's work."

[WinkyDink]

32. Too bad we can't arrest Rupert Murdoch.

[The Magistrate]

48. If He Engaged In An Open Coup, Ma'am, that Briefly held the President imprisoned

We probably would arrest him, and might well execute him.

[Bo]

374. Typical NARCISSISTIC Dictator ....35% inflation YEAH!

Chavez is a dumb ass I can´t believe they made a movie about this WACKO. Venezuela is a DISASTER.

[The Magistrate]

380. How Many Venezuelan Opponents Of His Regime Has He Killed, Sir?

My standard for judging governments is quantity of domestic corpses its armed forces supply. Those which supply largish numbers of corpses rank worse than those which produce few, or none. Proclaimed personality disorders do not appear on the scale at all....

[EFerrari]

6. People who are interested in how Latin America is reported here

should bookmark this story as a classic.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. For being a crook.

Generally when crooks flee the country, interpol is asked to detain them. Zuloga is not charged with being openly critical of the Venezuela government.

[EFerrari]

15. The headline is great. The same editor could write

"Saudi philanthropist critical of US stalked by American forces"

[The Magistrate]

16. That, Ma'am, is A Choice Bit Indeed....

[EFerrari]

19. Mr. Hartmann asked DUer Mika for links to good sources

on Latin America yesterday. When I tried to come up with some last night, it became evident that it's not a matter of a list of sites as it is a matter of decoding the information we get.

Most American sites are in the pocket of (right wing) capital. That leaves mainly resistance outlets that necessarily have their own slant. It's an intriguing exercise in deriving information from dueling agendas. lol

[The Magistrate]

20. True, Ma'am, And Leftists Who take their Eye Off The Ball Do Not Help Matters....

[Taverner]

18. Oh well, power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Chavez was a good guy - anyone who denies that hasn't been paying attention

But this, and the previous closing of Globovision, are acts of tyranny

This is why you always need checks and balances

[EFerrari]

21. How is going after a crook who was selling new cars under the table

to avoid taxes corruption?

[Taverner]

22. That's just an excuse - his war against Globovision has been going on a while

Granted, I have no love of Globovision. They were behind the Venezuelan attempted coup. They, like our teabaggers, have been calling for Chavez' outright assassination.

[EFerrari]

23. How is going after a criminal an excuse?

[The Magistrate]

26. What Amuses Me, Ma'am, is The Blind Eye Turned To Genuine Atrocity By Uribe In Columbia

Biblical injunction not to criticize the mote in your brother's eye when there is a beam in your own does not require silence when your brother has a beam in his eye....

[EFerrari]

38. Of course. Despite the crematoria and the mass graves and the false positives,

Uribe is still our "friend".

[HughMoran]

242. Are all countries south of us inevitably linked?

Is it not possible to discuss one without the other?

I really don't think this is the best line of argument you've ever used.

Crimes can exist in both places.

[The Magistrate]

246. It is The Difference In Degree, Sir, Which Counts

When one chooses to ignore mass murder while waxing in high dudgeon over an arrest warrant, one cannot credibly present oneself as greatly concerned with abuses of human rights. If someone wanted to come out openly and say, 'I do not like a leftist leader's attempting to establish a socialist order in Venezuela, and want to see the rightist counter-revolution against him succeed,' that would ease the strain of imposture considerably, but it at least would be an honest position. What is troubling, or amusing, depending on the angle one prefers, is the pretense affront at violations of human rights is the source of the dislike for Col. Chavez.

[HughMoran]

253. Why pick Columbia then? There are countless other examples

that have absolutely nothing to do with Venezuela?

Are you suggesting that nobody is permitted to criticize Venezuela's leadership so long as 'other' civil rights abuses are occurring elsewhere in the world?

That, Sir, is ludicrous.

[The Magistrate]

257. It Is A Neighbor, Sir, Funded By The United States

It has been touted as a possible agent for invasion of Venezuela at the behest of the U.S., and certainly is viewed as a potential platform for covert operations against Venezuela. Opponents of Col. Chavez here regularly give credence to charges made by the Uribe government against the government of Col. Chavez, and adduce them as proofs of his reprehensibleness. As a practical matter, the two places are closely linked, and it is therefore appropriate to use Colombia as an example. You are correct that any number of other places could be chosen, but even this simply establishes that the charges leveled against Col. Chavez are pretty thin gruel, compared to Burma or the Congo or Tibet, or whatever your favorite might be. This in turn raises again the question; why the concentrated focus on Col. Chavez? Of course, we both know the simple explanation: he is a man of the left, who bids fair to alter the economic and social life of Venezuela in ways that may benefit its poorest people most, and that is something many people just do not want to see happen....

[HughMoran]

260. Chavez should be criticized for the same reasons that Obama is criticized

You have to admit, many of those in this tread who's heads are exploding that Chavez is being criticized are the same who get almost violently up in arms when somebody suggests that their criticism of Obama is 'over the top'.

I dislike hypocrisy more than anything else in existence.

And to your point, I don't do 'linkage'. What you are suggesting would give Chavez carte blanche to do as he pleases, so long as it wasn't 'worse' than what was happening elsewhere in the world. That, Sir, is LUDICROUS!

[The Magistrate]

262. What Reason Would That Be, Sir?

Certainly, some supporters of Col. Chavez are considerably to the left of President Obama, and express some distress at his actions from a left perspective, often doing so in terms other good Democrats might find shrill, even offensive.

My capacity for outrage is limited, Sir: there is so much to be outraged over, and life is a fleeting thing. Therefore, it is my practice to sort matters out in terms of their gravity, and take the worst first. Often, this leaves little room for a range of lesser items. Mass murder comes pretty high, and it is a long way from that down to mere arrest of a political opponent.

[HughMoran]

264. I'll take that as a concession.

Have a good day, Sir.

[The Magistrate]

265. Why You Would Do So Escapes Me, Sir, But, Fine, If That Is Your Wish

"Mostly I killed time, and it died hard."

[Judi Lynn]

266. There has been so much information available which would prevent profound ignorance

on Latin America, I'm almost convinced there are a few contributors here who almost have to blind themselves to keep from knowing more about US/Latin American history, and policy.

It's painful hearing people yammer about these things while being totally uninformed about everything but what they have heard from sub-standard "news" outlets and corporate sources.

It's not that any of this is new. Here's a good article I just stumbled across from 10 years ago, and things haven't changed at all since then, other than to get far, FAR more deadly:

Extra! May/June 2000
Colombia's Cocaine Shell Game
Media are leading the U.S. into a civil war in the name of the

By Peter Hart

After the crash of a U.S. Army reconnaissance plane in July 1999 that killed seven people (including five U.S. military personnel), the question of U.S. involvement in Colombia re-emerged on the media radar screen. Journalists wondered whether "the U.S. could wind up in a fight it doesn’t want" (NBC Nightly News, 1/16/00), with many reporters acknowledging a certain inattention to the story: "It may not be widely known, but the United States is already engaged in the Colombian civil war," NPR reported (7/26/99).

Early in 2000, Congressional debate has centered on a two-year, $1.7 billion aid package for the Latin American country, what the New York Times (3/10/00) characterized as an attempt "to shore up Colombia's tottering democracy and enable its military to step up its war against narcotics traffickers"--a description that virtually echoes the official White House position on aid to Colombia.

In the minds of supporters in Congress and the White House, the aid package is intended to stem the flow of drugs into the United States, since, as countless media reports point out, Colombia is the origin of between 80 and 90 percent of the cocaine that ends up in the United States, and a majority of the heroin.

But the coverage of Colombia either ignores or distorts the facts on a range of issues: the long-standing relationship between the Colombian military and right-wing paramilitaries, the responsibility of those paramilitaries for the majority of the violence in Colombia, and the real politics of cocaine in Colombia.

More:
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1030

~~~~~
What makes this even more interesting is that all this was known at the time Clinton started Plan Colombia. The Department of Defense even had a report on Colombia's most powerful criminals, and both Alvaro Uribe and his father were named on it. Alvaro Uribe was also mentioned as being connected to Pablo Escobar.

Instead, we get thread after thread of the same tired old crappola on Hugo Chavez, year in, year out. This particular story has been around forever, and the man in question most clearly has had the time to mend his ways and clean up his act, and Zuluaga has chosen to continue his illegal business, and simply shout "He hates me because I'm a critic."

This means anyone who wants to take up a life of crime simply has to start up a news source of some kind and carry on his criminality with no fear whatsoever, as long as he can point his pudgy little fingers and insist he is being politically persecuted.

http://primicias24.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/guillermo-zuloaga.jpg

Guillermo "Just call me persecuted" Zuloaga.

[cowman]

274. You are missing the point

Our problem with the magistrate is his attempt at hijacking the thread and his untrue statements about other posters here who call him on it

[The Magistrate]

278. Nonesense, Sir

The problem is that you really do not have a very good grasp of matters South American in general, and Venezuelan in particular. You know some disparagements of Col. Chavez, but you do not know how they fit into a larger regional and historical picture. Indeed, you rebel at being confronted with the larger picture, and call it 'hijacking the thread', being evidently under the impression that when Col. Chavez is mentioned, the thread is supposed to consist of a string of statements on the order of 'Chavez is loony as a toon!', broken only by occassional disparragements of people who disagree with that as 'cultist apologists for that loony toon Chavez'.

[cowman]

285. I have a very good grasp of the history of S. America, once again your

making assumptions about someone you know nothing about. Just because I don't condemn Uribe on a discussion about Chavez, in your mind that makes me a supporter of Uribe and when I say something in jest, you insist that is my true position. You sir are the one living in Fantasy Land, say hello to Ricardo Maltabon when you see him.
Not sure if I spelled his last name correctly

[The Magistrate]

287. Then Demonstrate It, Sir: That Should Be Easy Enough To Do

None of your comments yet have shown the least trace of hidden depths of knowledge on the topic....

[cowman]

300. Demonstrate what?

That you are attempting to equate those of us who don't condemn Uribe on a thread about Chavez are supporters of Uribe? I think I've demonstrated that very well, but, hey, continue to talk on, thats your right and I fully support it.
On a side note, we've had alot of our posts deleted.

[The Magistrate]

302. You Have Claimed A Solid Grounding In Latin American History, Sir

Demonstrate it.

Tell me something about Venezuelan history, prefereably something that you can relate to its present condition.

[cowman]

311. Why do I have to demonstrate anything to you?

If you don't believe that I know about Latin American history and the history of the U.S. installing puppet regimes on the behest of corporations and the brutallity of these RW puppet govts and how the poor were made poorer while the rich got richer and how everytime the people tried to organize, they were crushed brutally and how Latin America distrusts the U.S. because of past actions, then thats your problem not mine.
Jeez, I'm starting to get loopy with lack of sleep. Glad I'm starting my 96 hours off duty.

[The Magistrate]

314. Unsupported Assertion Of Expertise Is Open To Doubt, Sir

You are still far from demonstrating any deep knowledge of the matter, though you are showing some familiarity with the outlines.

[cowman]

322. Once again

why do I have to demonstrate anything to you?
The only thing I HAVE to demonstrate are my skills in my profession.

[The Magistrate]

324. You Do Not Have To Do Anything, Sir

You have made certain assertions, and whether or not you can back them up remains an open question. If someone told you he could press three hundred pounds, you would probably want to see him do it before you said to someone else, "Hey, this guy I know can press three hundred...."

[cowman]

329. No I would take them at their word

why would I not believe them unless they were obviously not in shape, but you never know.

[The Magistrate]

330. More A 'Trust But Verify' Sort, Myself, Sir....

Different people have different outlooks, and different experiences.

[The Magistrate]

24. Since They Were Part Of a Coup, Sir, They Ought To Be Under a Jail Anyway

Col. Chavez has shown extraordinary leniency towards the coup plotters and participants, especially by local standards. Denouncing him as a tyrant over things like this is laughable.

[era veteran]

30. Since Hugo was part of a failed coup in which people died

he should be leaving under the jail and going to the gallows. Why even bring up Colombia ( not spelled columbia ) into a post about the cultist Chavez?

[The Magistrate]

35. He Did Jail Time, Sir, Under the Rule Of the Government He Failed To Overthrow

There are consequences to failure in the revolution business, you know. Had that government executed him after fair trial and conviction, it would have been well within its rights.

The contrasting case of Columbia is adduced to show the hollowness of most protestations against Col. Chavez' rule in Venezuela: people who portray themselves as boggled in horror by the arrest of a man who took part in a coup against one government seem to be wholly untroubled by another government, right next door, which has overseen the murder and torture of thousands, mostly without even a pretense they were actually guilty of anything. People who display such selectivity and disproportion in their outrage cannot be taken seriously as defenders of human rights and liberty.

[era veteran]

70. Colombia's government is brutal and I would like to see its

fall. I did not interject Colombia into a post about Venezuela. Why not use Burma? BTW Where is 'Columbia' ? ...Colombia (pronounced /kəˈlʌmbiə/ ( listen)), officially the Republic of Colombia (Spanish: República de Colombia, pronounced

[The Magistrate]

76. Yet, Sir, You Wade In Incessantly To Denounce Venezuela's Government

You have only now spoken up against the major atrocities in Colombia after great pressure has been applied, and it has become clear to you could not hope to hold the position you had staked out if you did not pay at least lip service to the idea the crimes in Colombia you ignored were far worse than those in Venezuela you were pleased to denounce readily.

It remains the case that you display far more outrage against trifles in Venezuela than against enormities elsewhere.

It is also the case that Venezuela has a left government, and its neighbor Colombia has a rightist government....

[davidinalameda]

162. its called diversion

the Sisters of St. Hugo on here can't stand to see anyone criticize their savior

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dorian Gray]

228. Repeat

ad infinitum.

[Name removed]

232. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

272. Of Course, Repeat, Ma'am: It is An Important Element Of Persuasive Argument

The selective focus and disproportionate rhetoric employed routinely in attacks against Col. Chavez are sufficient to establish these attacks are not mounted in any attempt to vindicate human rights or liberties, but merely to oppose a left government in Latin America. If this were not the case, the persons engaged in this would surely be willing to acknowledge the far greater scope and depth of atrocity in neighboring Colombia, rather than merely expressing some irritation that someone has brought that up, and pointed out the stark contrast between the two situations.

[Judi Lynn]

222. Too bad you have no grasp of El Caracazo massacre and what it symbolizes in Venezuela,

and the fact that this massacre by Venezuelan Carlos Andres Perez turned the tide politically in Venezuela FOREVER, and served as the impetus for the two separate coups, one led by Hugo Chavez, to remove this butcher from office.

For the benefit of conscientious DU'ers who haven't had time or motivation to find out about the subject you're attempting to discuss:

Wiki. definition of "El Caracazo" Massacre, and photos.
The Caracazo or sacudón is the name given to the wave of protests, riots and looting that occurred on 27 February 1989 in the Venezuelan capital Caracas and surrounding towns. The riots — the worst in Venezuelan history — resulted in a death toll of anywhere between 275 and 3,000 deaths,<1> mostly at the hands of security forces.

The word Caracazo is the name of the city plus the suffix -azo, which implies a blow and/or magnitude. It could therefore be translated as something like "the Caracas smash" or "the big one in Caracas". The name was inspired by the Bogotazo, a massive riot in neighboring Colombia in 1948 that played a pivotal role in that country's history. Sacudón is from sacudir "to shake", and therefore means something along the lines of "the day that shook the country".

Lead-up
In the context of the economic crisis that Venezuela had been going through since the early 1980s, President Carlos Andrés Pérez proposed to implement free-market reforms in his second presidential term (1989–1993), following the recommendations of the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Pérez belonged to the Acción Democrática (AD) party (social-democrat). This programme was known as the paquete — the "package".

Measures taken by Pérez included privatizing state companies, tax reform, reducing customs duties, and diminishing the role of the state in the economy. He also took measures to decentralize and modernize the Venezuelan political system by instituting the direct election of state governors (previously appointed by the President). But the most controversial part of this economic package was the elimination of the gas subsidies, which had long maintained domestic petrol prices far beneath their international levels (and indeed beneath the production costs of gasoline). Upon the elimination of the subsidy, petrol prices rose by as much 100%, and subsequently, the costs of public transportation rose by 30%.

Protests and rioting
The protests and rioting began in Guarenas (a town in Miranda State, some 30 km east of Caracas) on the morning of 27 February 1989,<2> due to a steep increase in transportation costs to Caracas. They quickly spread to the capital and other towns across the country. By the afternoon, there were disturbances in almost all districts of Caracas, with shops shut and public transport not running.

In the days that followed there was widespread international media coverage of the looting and destruction. For many months, there was discussion about how something so violent could occur in Venezuela.

Overwhelmed by the looting, the government declared a state of emergency, put the city under martial law and restored order albeit with the use of force. Some people used firearms for self-defence, to attack other civilians and/or to attack the military, but the number of dead soldiers and police came nowhere near the number of civilian deaths. The repression was particularly harsh in the cerros — the poor neighbourhoods of the capital.

The initial official pronouncements said 276 people had died.

Congress suspended constitutional rights, and there were several days during which the city was in chaos, with restrictions, food shortages, militarisation, burglaries, and the persecution and murder of innocent people.

Consequences
The clearest consequence of the caracazo was political instability. The following February, the army was called to contain similar riots in Puerto La Cruz and Barcelona, and again in June, when rising of transportation costs ended in riots in Maracaibo and other cities. The free-market reforms programme was modified. In 1992 there were two attempted coups d'état, in February and November. Carlos Andrés Pérez was accused of corruption and removed from the presidency. Hugo Chávez, an organiser of one of the coups, was found guilty of sedition and incarcerated. However, he was subsequently pardoned by Pérez's successor, Rafael Caldera, and went on to be elected president after him.

In 1998, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights condemned the government's action, and referred the case to the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. In 1999, the Court heard the case and found that the government had committed violations of human rights, including extrajudicial killings. The Venezuelan government, by then headed by Chávez, did not contest the findings of the case, and accepted full responsibility for the government's actions.<2>

In July 2009, then-defence minister Italo del Valle Alliegro was charged in relation to the Caracazo.<3>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracazo

El Caracazo, Caracas, Venezuela February 27, 1989

http://lahistoriadeldia.files.wordpress.com.nyud.net:8090/2009/02/caracazo1.jpg http://fidelernestovasquez.files.wordpress.com.nyud.net:8090/2009/02/caracazo-fidelvasquez.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us.nyud.net:8090/img511/6033/jessechacontg6.jpg http://www.radiomundial.com.ve.nyud.net:8090/yvke/files/img_noticia/t_caracazo_2_107.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_0F6YqUcqueU/SaYeRJySrMI/AAAAAAAAAFs/qOvu6W6uo4w/s400/Caracazo-2.gif

~~~~~

http://upload.wikimedia.org.nyud.net:8090/wikipedia/commons/0/09/CarlosAndr%C3%A9sP%C3%A9rez_GeorgeH.W.Bush.jpg

Carlos Andrés Pérez and friend.





Current wife, former mistress during his former marriage, Celia Matos, in her Miami condo.



Former Venezuelan President
Carlos Andres Perez during a
party in his honor celebrated
in Miami
Credit: Conexiones

He was discovered to have used his then secretary, Cecilia Matos to help him set up several joint bank accounts
in the United States, totally $17,000,000.00, FAR more money than he ever earned as Venezuela's President.

http://encontrarte.aporrea.org.nyud.net:8090/imagenes/galerias/muralvenezuela/61MDetalle.jpg

"El Carracazo", as depicted in a series of murals on the street in Caracas.

http://encontrarte.aporrea.org.nyud.net:8090/imagenes/galerias/muralvenezuela/MM1.jpg

~~~~~
Material provided by DU'er SayWhat:

Venezuela to pay $6 million in 1989 riot deaths
Compensation for victims during El Caracazo (see second article)

<clips>

CARACAS, Venezuela, Nov 11 (Reuters) - Venezuela's government on Tuesday approved nearly $6 million in compensation for the families of about 1,000 people killed during the nation's worst urban rioting nearly 15 years ago.

The 1989 so-called Caracazo street riots -- sparked by a package of strict IMF-backed economic reforms -- became a landmark human rights case in VenezuelEa after troops fired indiscriminately at protesting crowds in Caracas.

"This is a way to comply with international obligations on the issue of human rights," Foreign Minister Roy Chaderton said in a statement.

The payments were ordered in a 1999 ruling by the Inter-American Court of Human Rights -- part of the Organization of American States. President Hugo Chavez' government accepted that authorities had committed human rights abuses during the riots.

Protests over the 1989 reforms quickly spilled into angry looting as hundreds of poor people streamed down from hillside slums that ring Caracas. Then-President Carlos Andres Perez ordered a curfew and sent tanks into the streets.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N11381380.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About El caracazo

From "Brief History of Venezuelan Politics"

...1989 Perez was reelected at the height of discontent. He immediately began inflicting an IMF sponsored neoliberal program (El Paquete) on the country. Privatization of state owned industry, elimination of subsidies, devaluation of currency hit the public hard and they screamed out in protest in the form of labor strikes, student strikes, and violent urban riots.

El caracazo

A gas price hike was the last straw and on 27 February 1989 Caracas and other Venezuelan cities erupted. Spontaneously, the masses struck out against bus drivers who had unfairly raised their fares and shop clerks who were hoarding subsidized inventory for later sales. Joining them for 5 days of chaos was the destitute from the slums in the hills that surround Caracas who converged on the valley city looting stores, breaking windows, stealing cars, and generally reeking havoc. The uprising was finally ended by a vicious massacre of some 2000 persons by the police and military.

http://www.bolivariancircles.net/english/history1.html

It appears there are some "contributors" who believe if they shriek "straw man" something magical will happen, and people here telling the truth will suddenly disappear. You know that's not going to happen.

If you take the time to find the real answers, instead of spreading that rightist gibberish, you won't want to advance such ugly, twisted garbage. The truth is ALWAYS the right choice. Our world's history will NOT be crafted by you and yours after the fact.

[The Magistrate]

223. Thank You For Taking the Time To Present This, Ma'am

In the heat of an extended exchange, it is not possible to put together serious exposition.

The basic conflict goes back a long way past that, past even President Betancourt.

The degree to which a person can support the idea Col. Chavez represents some ghastly apogee of tyranny in Venezuela is the precise measure of that person's ignorance of that country's history.

The next move, of course, will be people proclaiming their 'friends in Venezuela' say otherwise, but that is hardly authoritative, even if true; to be a native to a country does not guarantee fluency in its history, and some elements in a society will obviously have a different view of a country's history, and different standards for descrying tyranny, than will others....

[Judi Lynn]

224. Thank you for your ecellent spirit, and comments. You have truth on your side, clearly,

or you wouldn't have bothered.

You are naturally inclined by your assurance in your grasp of things NOT to get wildly overwrought and start throwing the message board furniture around! That's the first sign of deep anxiety one's not capable of supporting wild claims.

It was a great experience reading this thread before posting. You are a beacon of light here, believe me. Thank you.

[Greyhound]

338. Thanks for posting this, it is just too bad that so many fascists are also illiterate.

Too many of those word-things but the pictures were a nice touch of warporn. Maybe that got a few to at least look at it.

[cowman]

354. So according to you

those of us that disagree with you are fascists. Do you even know what a fascist is? I think not. I have a hell of a lot more respect for Judy Lynn and The Magistrate because at least they put forward facts. Try looking up the word fascist before you open your mouth and make a fool of yourself.

[Name removed]

356. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cowman]

357. wow

I feel so, so, so ashamed of myself because I spelled her name wrong, this to Judi Lynn, I apologize for the mispelling of your name.
To you, once again you don't even know what the word fascist means when you fling it around so casually.
BTW, calling another DU'er a fool will get your post deleted
enjoy your stay here

[Greyhound]

363. Encyclopedic.

:rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

358. That might explain why they remain so completely ignorant of any part of the subject.

However, they'll probably leap to the conclusion all the deaths, and the bulldozer which pushed some of these dead Venezuelans into mass graves were a result of Hugo Chavez and the other officers' revolt, rather than the DIRECT responsibility of the man against whom they revolted.

By the way, when Carlos Andres Perez first gave the order to his police to fire directly into the unarmed crowds of Venezuelans, many of the police immediately walked away, left. He had to call out his national military forces to start mowing down these desperate city dwellers protesting the fact they could no longer afford to travel to work and to get food due to his filthy price hikes.

Illiteracy would go a long way in explaining why they remain so truculently, belligerently quarrelsome while deeply uninformed.

[Greyhound]

362. I think Eisenhower summed up this "tiny splinter group".

They're fun to play with, but the damage they enable is just awful.
:kick:

[Judi Lynn]

373. What a shame Eisenhower never anticipated early on what took hin so long to see.

As a young man setting out from a small town in Kansas he probably had no idea people could be this destructive in everyday life.

He did learn, however, and tried to warn others as an older man leaving office. No one then appeared to have the slightest idea what he meant.

[Greyhound]

379. Considering the time, it is not surprising people had no clue. That was a large part of the

transformation during the 60's and 70's. Along with seeing the war every day, they began to hear about so many other things that were going on which had been kept from them.

The MIC was still thought of as that national effort to defend freedom, you know, "defenders of our way of life" and such. Nobody knew these parasites were still in control, the Robber Barons were thought to be a nightmare we awoke from generations ago. Nobody was aware of what we did to the South American continent for these leeches. Few had ever even heard of the Business Plot, let alone that they walked away from attempting a military coup just because they were rich and failed. WWII was a crisis well used and that spawned the mess we're in today.

That time shattered so many illusions and achieved, however temporarily, a fundamental shift in the national psyche. Raygun came along and told them it was OK to go back to sleep and dream of what never was.

Perhaps this time we will learn from history and eliminate them forever.

[joecooool]

25. Chavez has crossed the line

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[The Magistrate]

27. Has He Crossed This Line, Sir? Columbian Army Murders Thousands For Bounty Money

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0619/1224272868802.html

If you are looking for something with a Latin flavor in the poutrage line....

[cowman]

29. You keep bringing up Colombia

but what the hell does this have to do Chavez. Trying to take our minds off that POS Chavez? You can excuse him all you want, doesn't change the fact that he is becoming a dictator and before you apologists flame me, quite frankly, I don't give a shit what you think of me because I don't live my life by what other people think of me.
Have a hell of a good day

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

43. Opinions are like elbows but that doesn't change the reality on the ground

in Venezuela.

[era veteran]

54. The dictator Chavez IS the reality, the apologists are lost

in the grip of this dictators cult. He stifles all opposition for his freak version of Socialism. Latin America has been a horror show of Right Wing Cultist Governments that does not mean that a far left version of dictator will even things out.

[EFerrari]

56. Hilarious. Most of the educated world recognizes

that Latin America is undergoing a democratizing wave led in part by Chavez. But please don't let that interrupt your Cold War!

lol

[era veteran]

72. Most of the Polyanna World

What is this about the cold war?

[The Magistrate]

78. A Hard-Boiled Realist, Are You Then, Sir?

"No anchovies? You got the wrong man. I spell my name Danger!"

[era veteran]

94. Nick Danger?

[The Magistrate]

59. 'His Freak Version Of Socialism', Sir? Now We Come To the Nub Of It, Do We Not?

But the real outline is this:

You will express great dudgeon over a few arrests and confiscations of property.

You will ignore the torture and murder of thousands, in the absence of confiscations of property.

Revolution always meets opposition of counter-revolution. Imagining this takes place in a vacuum, or in a condition of ordinary civil peace, and expecting the revolutionists to play by the rules of civil peace regardless of what the counter-revolutionists do, is plain foolishness. It is not going to happen.

Where revolution is concerned, one picks a side, and sticks to it.

[era veteran]

77. I did not ignore torture & murder. I did not stick up for

the brutal government of COLOMBIA. Your arguments are specious as Chavez's government. Take your Colombian strawman to another post, maybe one about Colombia.

[The Magistrate]

83. You Do Ignore It, Sir, And Continue To Do So Even Now

You have simply been pressed to paying lip service, as you can see no way out of doing so in the present exchange.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

97. Wriggle All You Like, Sir, It Is Amusing

When you display appropriate levels of shock and outrage at wholesale murder in contrast to a few arrests and confiscations of property, you can be taken seriously. Until them, you are engaging in low comedy, and piss-poor agit-prop work against a left government.

[HughMoran]

244. I'm going to have to give you the argument here

Colombia does not equal Venezuela

I think it's bigotry to think that we can't discuss one without the other.

Why wasn't a country in Africa picked as the comparison? :think:

[The Magistrate]

254. Just Who, Sir, Are You Accusing Of Bigotry Here?

[Judi Lynn]

277. Why not share some of your sources on this news lockdown going on in Venezuela?

That's such a powerful assertion it cries out for substance. Please do take the time to look for your legitimate, factual references. In the meantime, here's something which may help:

Media In Venezuela: Facts and Fiction
Written by Caitlin McNulty and Liz Migliorelli
Monday, 17 August 2009 09:36

~snip~
Media Sources in Venezuela

The preferred news source of most Venezuelans is television media. There are at least five nationally broadcasted television stations that dispatch via "free-over-the-air" and publicly allotted signals. These stations include Venevisión (controlled by Grupo Cisneros), Univision, Televisión de Venezuela (Televen) and previous to it's closing (which will be explained later in the article), Radio Caracas Television (RCTV).2

For several decades, commercial television in Venezuela has belonged to an oligopoly of two families, the Cisneros and the Bottome & Granier Group. The tremendous influence of these parties reaches beyond broadcast networks into advertising and public relations agencies that operate for the welfare of the stations, as well as record labels and other societal industries that produce material to be promoted on the stations. Not only does the Cisneros family own Venevisión, the largest station in Venezuela, they own over seventy media outlets in 39 countries, including DirecTV Latin America, AOL Latin America, Caracol Television (Colombia), the Univisión Network in the United States, Galavisión, Playboy Latin America as well as beverage and food distribution such as Coca Cola bottling, Regional Beer and Pizza Hut in Venezuela. They also own entities such as Los Leones baseball team of Caracas and the Miss Venezuela Pageant.3 The reach of the Cisneros power is massive; the media monopoly broadcasts to more than four million television screens in Venezuela, giving it tremendous power and influence.

Globovisión, a channel that is widely broadcast in major metropolitan centers such as Caracas, Carabobo and Zulia and is also available on satellite on DirecTV, and CNN en Español are both private stations that have a harsh anti-Chávez rhetoric. President of CNN en Español Christopher Cromwell has said that Chávez may not like the programming on his network, but this meant that CNN was doing its job correctly. Another station, Valores Educativos Televisión (Vale TV) is a major regional network that is neither state-run nor commercially aimed, run by the Asociación Civil, which is managed by the Catholic Church.4 These smaller, regional networks are never mentioned in reports of media in Venezuela. Five major private television networks control at least 90% of the market and smaller private stations control another 5%. This 95% of the broadcast market was quick to express its opposition to President Chávez's administration as early as 1999, soon after Chávez first took office.5 There are three public and state-controlled television channels that exist on the same national electromagnetic spectrum, including Venezolana de Televisión (VTV, established in 1964, a state-owned television network); Visión Venezuela (ViVe TV, established in 2003, a cultural network funded by the government that is not yet broadcasted nationally); and Televisora Venezolana Social (TVes, established in 2007 as RCTV's substitute).6 These channels cannot compete with the privately owned, commercial media that serve as the dominant source of television news media in Venezuela.

Print media in Venezuela is diverse, but it depicts a greater opposition presence than seen in television networks. Many publications are corporate-owned and extremely critical of the Chávez administration. In comparison to the United States, where New York, the largest city, has only four daily papers (New York Times, Wall Street Journal, New York Post, Daily News), two of which are markedly sympathetic to the Bush administration, Caracas, the capital of Venezuela, has twenty-one daily papers. Whereas the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today and Washington Post are the only nationally distributed daily papers in the United States, Venezuela circulates eight daily papers nationally. A Washington D.C. based think-tank Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA) has described the print media situation in simple terms: "nine out of ten newspapers, including El Nacional and El Universal, are staunchly anti-Chávez." 7

Never was corporate media's agenda of destabilizing the Chavez government more transparent than during the 2002 coup attempt against Chávez, which was seen by many as the "first media war in world history".8 Overwhelming public outrage broke out as the majority of Venezuelans who voted Chávez into office saw the democratic process derailed before their very eyes. Their voices, actions, and protests were silenced by the news media in favor of the "inauguration ceremony" of Pedro Carmona, the illegitimate coup-appointed interim President of Venezuela. In response to the government's change of the executive board of Petroleros de Venezuela (PDVSA, Venezuela's oil company) a massive opposition march to the headquarters of PDVSA was promoted by print media, radio and television incessantly. In the days before the coup, instead of regular television programming, Venevisión, RCTV,
Globovisión and Televen broadcasted constant anti-Chávez speeches and propaganda calling for viewers to take to the streets. Some ads urged, "Venezuelans, take to the streets on Thursday, April 11 at 10 a.m. Bring your flags. For freedom and democracy. Venezuela will not surrender. No one will defeat us."9 Many propaganda ads were extremely threatening and clearly intended to instigate violence and an overthrow of the Chávez government.

More:
http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/2059/1/

[Tempest]

370. Did you notice what I did, Judi?

Your posting of the facts on Chavez are getting few or no responses.

The axiom "The truth shall set you free" apparently doesn't apply to the Chavez haters.

[Judi Lynn]

372. You bet I noticed. This is typical, dealing with this kind. It's as if they've gone blind

and weren't able to read them.

That's O.K. They don't realize the information is going to be seen by people who ARE interested in learning the truth, and those people may be seeing this stuff for the first time and it will move them to start digging in, looking for more of the truth, not the easily available corporate media poison propaganda themselves! :woohoo: http://forum.ah.fm.nyud.net:8090/images/smilies/banana_moonwalk.gif

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cowman]

45. And once again

what the fuck does Colombia have to do with Chavez?
and don't try to analyze me, you don't know shit about me

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cowman]

63. Again, sir, you don't know jack shit about me.

How do you know what I think of the atrocities committed in Colombia?
I am just as horrified and outraged as you are but, ONCE AGAIN, what the fuck does that have to do with that POS Chavez asking Interpol to arrest someone on possible trumped up charges?

[The Magistrate]

65. After A Half a Dozen Tries, Sir, You Manage a Few Words Opposed To torture And Murder....

It will not remotely suffice, Sir.

Your focus remains trifles committed by a left government, as opposed to enormities performed by a rightist government.

The selectivity and disproportion of your outrage makes the matter clear. You do not oppose violations of human rights and liberty; you oppose left governments in Latin America, and imagine cries of 'he violates human rights' will be an effective rhetorical bludgeon. It probably works sometimes, but it does not work today....

[cowman]

79. Do you honestly think that I give a shit about what you think suffices?

Thats right my focus remains about Chavez because the post is about Chavez. Your the one who tried to hijack the OP and when called to task, you start dodging. You must have been a great dodge ball player when you were a kid, and BTW you don't know shit about what outrages me and I refuse to justify my comments to you.

[The Magistrate]

84. Evidently You Do, Sir, As You Keep Replying, And With Increasing Heat

Your focus remains trifles committed by a left government, as opposed to enormities performed by a rightist government.

The selectivity and disproportion of your outrage makes the matter clear. You do not oppose violations of human rights and liberty; you oppose left governments in Latin America, and imagine cries of 'he violates human rights' will be an effective rhetorical bludgeon.

[cowman]

91. And once again

my focus remains with Chavez because thats what the OP is about, not about Colombia. If you want to talk about Colombia, start a new thread.
What happened in Colombia has no bearing on Chavez in this thread.
Congrats on being an armchair psych. I guess you will be sending me a bill for your services.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cowman]

110. Well I guess you got me

I approve of the genuine atrocities in Colombia and think that Chavez is worse than Uribe. There, are you happy now?
Go peddle you bullshit elsewhere, gotta go now, duty calls

[The Magistrate]

116. As The Man said, Sir: 'There's Many a Truth Told In Jest"

You have just added one instance to the list....

[cowman]

130. Jeez

you have really jumped the shark on that one, you do understand what jumping the shark means don't you? I guess I should have added the sarcasm tag but I thought you would get it but I guessed wrong

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cowman]

135. Do you

understand what jumping the shark means? You can keep repeating your strawman argument all you want, doesn't matter. The thread is about Chavez not Colombia, now if you want to start a new thread about the atrocities in that country and the criminal Uribe, then I will comment to you satisfaction, but not here on this thread.

[The Magistrate]

142. You Let It Slip Already, Sir

"I approve of the genuine atrocities in Colombia and think that Chavez is worse than Uribe." Your words....

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

159. And You, Get More Amusing the More You Are Pressed

It is hard to imagine even you think you are presenting any serious or credible arguments here by now....

"Let 'em come to ya, and they'll beat theirselves...."

[cowman]

160. Thats your opinion

and your entitled to it. You want to believe that what I said in jest is how I really feel, go ahead, however most of the people on this forum recognize sarcasm when they see it and most think you are being ridiculous. Once again, thats your opinion and you are entitled to it no matter how dumbass it is

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cowman]

181. Refute what?

I've refuted it many times but you apparently don't want to believe it so on that note, you have a good night and a good life and I've got to go check out our Engine and Ambulance.
Peace Out :fistbump:

[cowman]

163. Still waiting for and answer to my Question

Crickets

[EFerrari]

42. Where do you get off insulting Chavez over a POS headline?

And calling him a dictator?

LOL

I have a couple of bridges you might be interested in.

[cowman]

50. Where do you get off apologizing for him everytime?

Come to NV. sometime, I've got some land for you to buy, only used to test nuclear weapons.

[EFerrari]

53. You have nothing on your side but spittle.

The Venezuelan government has every right to go after tax cheats.

[cowman]

58. Spittle on my side?

That's funny, and who says he's a tax cheat? Chavez? Yeah, that's believable, NOT.

[NeedleCast]

100. Because he's a dictator

LOL

[TexasObserver]

258. Unlike Venezuela, this is a free country. We have rights to speak freely.

Chavez is a POS, a dictator, and a loon. Those are opinions many, many Americans, and many, many Democrats share.

Please accept that your personal opinion of Chavez, however high it may be, is not a license to attack posters who don't share that opinion.

[The Magistrate]

259. Clearly, Sir, You Are Not Used To Opposition In This Matter

You cannot expect everyone to either agree with you, or to leave to hold the floor unchallenged.

It is abundantly clear that the ability to say "Chavez is a POS, a dictator, and a loon" is about the limit of your capability to argue this matter, so your discomfort is understandable. But your discomfort is not my problem....

[TexasObserver]

261. Chavez is a POS, a dictator, and a loon

[The Magistrate]

263. How Is The Weather Down Your Way, Sir?

Pleasantly overcast, up here; the recent rains have cooled things down considerable.

[cowman]

267. You can be a Chavez cheerleader all you want

that is your right and I will defend it but when you try to hijack the thread, thats where the problem comes in and when called on it, you resort to a haughty, superior attitude that seems to belittle people who have a different opinion than you have.
Didn't get much sleep last night, had a structure fire.

[The Magistrate]

273. What You Call 'Hijacking The Thread', Sir, Is Simply Effective Opposition

Which made it difficult, and continues to make it difficult, to maintain the 'let's all hate that crazy socialist Chavez' focus some seem to be used to when such topics are brought up....

[cowman]

276. I don't hate Chavez

I just think that he is heading his country in the wrong direction, but that is my opinion and if the people of Venezuela want to keep electing him, thats their business, my problem with you is that you keep saying that because we don't condemn Uribe here on a discussion about Chavez that we are somehow supporting what happened in Colombia and your superior and haughty attitude towards people who call you on it is morally bankrupt.

[The Magistrate]

281. So You Agree, Sir, That Col. Chavez Is The Freely And Democratically Elected President Of Venezuela?

What, then, is your attitude towards persons who plan and participate in an armed coup against a freely and democratically elected government?

[cowman]

288. Show me where I ever said he wasn't freely and ligitimatly elected?

you can't because I never ever said that. Once again my problem with you is that because we didn't condemn the murderer Uribe on a thread about Chavez, we somehow are supporters of Uribe. Start a thread about Colombia and the criminal Uribe and I will be happy to comment.

[The Magistrate]

289. What is Your Attitude Towards People Who Make A Coup Against A Freely Elected Government, Sir?

That was the second question. You might want to reply to it; it does not use the words Colombia or Uribe anywhere in it....

[spanza]

401. Zuluaga was not in the coup, you seem to be amalgamating a lot, "Sir". nt

[The Magistrate]

405. Actually, Sir, He Put His Media Operation Wholly At The Disposal Of The Rebels

He had the sense to avoid signing certain documents, that is true enough, but insufficient for exculpation in a matter like this.

[spanza]

409. He didn't, Sir, you're referring to a different TV station, RCTV

Haven't you ever wondered why was there not a single trial against these eternal 2002 TV conspirators.

As a citizen, Sir, I ask for a trial concerning the 2002 coup and I need condemnations. It is way too convenient for a government to keep supposedly guilty people in a fridge until it "needs" to punish them.

[The Magistrate]

411. No, Sir: He Broadcast The Same Reports, and Expressed Allegiance To the Thing

It may well be such a calculation by Col. Chavez, to keep these things hanging over the heads of active opponents as a means of hobbling their future activities, just as it may have been calculation that proper treason trials and deserved executions in the wake of the coup's failure might have brought a back-lash, including serious U.S. intervention in the situation. It is a delicate situation all around, for all parties to it....

[spanza]

412. Do you have something to back your claim of Zuluaga expressing allegiance to the thing??

I don't think he did, Sir.

[The Magistrate]

414. My Memory Is Fairly Good, Sir, And The Event was But Eight Years Ago

He has certainly made recent statements of support for the thing, regrets at its failure, noise of that sort....

[Judi Lynn]

286. You ARE supporting Colombia, and its status as the most dangerous country in the world

for union workers, not to mention human rights workers, indigenous people, teachers, journalists, and its unenviable and little known title as home of the world's SECOND LARGEST HUMANITARIAN CRISIS, as the "home" of so many, many Colombian villagers, campesinos, African-Colombians, indigenous Colombians who have been chased off their property which then ends up in either the hands of the paramilitaries, or the Colombian government, while these formerly legally housed, and sheltered people are roaming aimlessly with nowhere to go, since the cities can't provide for them, jobs are not available, and thousands and thousands of them even pour across the borders and become the homeless people multitude of Venezuela, and Ecuador, who struggle to assist them.

Your tax dollars have been poured into the ocean of money lavished upon Colombia annually, now exceeding over 7 billion since 2000, and you can rest knowing that after that much of your own income has been generously awarded to the Colombian government almost all of it stayed with the government, and the distance between the oligarchy and the massive poor population is growing constantly. Your money has not improved the quality of life for the ones who need it in Colombia.

At the same time, your money is being dumped by the boatload upon anti-Chavez political groups in Venezuela, helping to shore them up, create strategy, devise schemes and plots, like their dandy coup, the referendum on Chavez, the movement to block Chavez' and his legislature's referendum of 69 separate issues, and the work lock-out of the workers which was designed, of course, to create a devastating blow to Venezuela's economy, which it did, for a while.

You'd be doing yourself a favor by starting to get up to speed on your Venezuela information, instead of haunting message board threads at progressive forums, and trying to assassinate the character of truly accurate, hopelessly conscientious people.

[cowman]

290. I AM NOT supporting Colombia

and if you say I am with my tax dollars then I guess if you are a U.S. citizen, you are also, and despite what you may think, and I really don't care what you think, I am up to speed on Venezuela.
I find it amazing that people who know nothing about me think they know all about me. Truly Amazing.
It's my OPINION that Chavez is a POS and my OPINION only, just like it's your opinion that he is the messiah and your opinion only and if you don't like my opinion, well, thats your right and your problem, not mine

[The Magistrate]

292. She Is Quite Right, Sir: All Of Us Who Pay Federal Taxes Are Literally Supporting Uribe

And the counter-revolution against Col. Chavez.

Do you think that money is well spent?

[cowman]

293. Nope

and I never said we should be intervening in the affairs of another country.
The money would be better spent here at home rebuilding our infratructure.
And as far as the people who participated in the Coup, they should be investigated and brought to trial if the evidence supports a charge and if found guilty, the appropriate punishment should be handed down

[The Magistrate]

298. So, Sir, You Consider Persons Who Throw A Coup To Be Criminals?

You are aware, are you not, that matters of suppressing revolution or counter-revolution often are not so cut and dried as the things a beat cop deals with? You are aware that, as it is with organized criminal gangs, the known leaders often are not readily connected with the actual execution of the orders they give? You are also aware that where revolution or counter-revolution is a sensible political force, actions to apprehend leaders may need to be very circumspect, and generally tailored to avoid provoking violent outbreaks?

[cowman]

303. If they attempt a coup

against a legitimately elected govt. then they are criminals and worse, traitors and should be brought to justice. I may not like Chavez and I think he is a POS, but he was fairly elected and I did not support the coup attempt against his govt. and our govt. rushing in to recognize the people who overthrew him was a huge fucking mistake and probably earned the animosity of Chavez, not probably, but did.
There, is that sufficient for you?
Just because I don't condemn Uribe on a thread about Chavez doesn't mean I support Uribe, I think he is a mass murderer and I would love to see him brought before the Hague for crimes against humanity and you trying to say that we support Uribe because we don't condemn him on this thread is just ridiculous.

[The Magistrate]

306. Then Please State, Sir, Your Objection To Venezuela's Government Seeking To Arrest This Man

That he was involved in the coup is as well known as it was that Mr. Capone ran boot-leg booze. What they have on him is violation of hoarding laws and black-marketeering, that is pretty well documented. Why do you complain that, since he has fled Venezuela, international police agencies are being asked to keep an eye out for him?

[cowman]

315. If they were going after him for the coup attempt

then I would say, go for it, however it just seems to convenient that they would charge him with hoarding laws and black marketeering when the elections are in what, 3 mos.. Why didn't they try him on sedition and treason?
Sorry, It is my opinion that they are trying to silence the opposition and once again, it is my opinion only which I am entitled to.

[The Magistrate]

317. Black-Marketeering is A Crime, Sir: Do You Object To Prosecuting Criminals?

Does vocal opposition to a government constitute a license to break the law with impunity?

Should our government have foregone prosecuting Mr. Capone for tax evasion because they should have been nailing him for murder, but could not get sufficient evidence, given the actual circumstances?

The warrant, by the way, dates back to before May of last year; this is not some grand new development.

[cowman]

320. So why didn't they go after

him for sedition and treason? All the evidence was there, hell the guy even admitted he openly called for the overthrow of The Chavez govt.
this seems just to convientent to me and once again its my opinion.
Look, obviously we are on opposite sides of this and your not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change your mind so lets just call it a day and part amicably.

[The Magistrate]

323. We Are Not on Opposite Sides Of It, Sir, Not Really

You have by now agreed with me in broad outline on every point under discussion. On this particular matter, it seems to me you may not sufficiently appreciate the kind of cross-currents that operate when revolution and counter-revolution are at daggers drawn, with neither so completely sure of itself it is willing to court a violent reaction from the other. In situations like that, pretext and subterfuge will be the order of the day, and the crime a man is arrested for may well be something besides why he is really wanted in cells. The situation in Venezuela should not be mistaken for one of settled civil peace; rather, it is a sort of 'cold civil war' with a great many factions and great fluidity between them.

[cowman]

325. If I got out of line with you

I apologize, I get very passionate about things I believe in, that's what makes me a great Paramedic because I am very passionate about my patients and when confronted by what I see as an untrue statement, I respond, sometimes to bluntly but thats just the way I am. Once again, if I got out of line I apologize, have a great day.

[The Magistrate]

327. No Problem, Sir

A vigorous scrap is good for the blood....

[cowman]

332. And this was difinitly vigorous

[laughingliberal]

388. Calling for the violent overthrow of our government is not legal in the US, either...

I would assume it is not in Venezuela, either.

[Dorian Gray]

74. It's

c o l O m b i a

[EFerrari]

40. The government of Venezuela will keep enforcing the law

no matter what looney headline the American press comes up with. :)

[Braulio]

49. Which law?

I saw an interview on CNN, the guy said there was no law against owning 20 vehicles.

[EFerrari]

57. But it is illegal to sell cars under the table to avoid paying taxes and fees

to the state.

Come on.

[cowman]

60. But if he hasn't sold them yet, what crime was committed?

Boy I'm glad I live here in the U.S. where I can sell my cars, guns and what not without the govt. comming after me for "taxes and fees".

[Warren Stupidity]

123. Actually you can't.

Generally if you are in the car or gun selling business the government will come after you for the dreaded 'taxes and fees' and if you willfully attempt to evade those taxes and fees:

ARMED MEN WILL COME AND ARREST YOU!

and if you flee the country to avoid your arrest for tax evasion

INTERPOL WILL BE NOTIFIED.

You should leave this country immediately.

[cowman]

129. I'm back

just a minor fender bender, no injuries. No, I'm not in the car or gun selling business, but I can sell my cars or guns to private buyers and don't have to pay taxes or fees.

[Warren Stupidity]

131. And if you just happen to keep a dozen brand new SUVs

in one of your properties and appear to be in the car selling business and not a private individual selling his personal automobile, the damn revenuers will be coming for their sales taxes. That is exactly what appears to have been going on with this case. He was caught evading tax regulations. Oh well.

[cowman]

137. And if I have a dozen SUV's on my property and decided to sell

them one at a time at different intervals, that would not make me a car salesman and the govt can't tax or fee me. And just because Chavez says he's a tax cheat doesn't make it so.

[Warren Stupidity]

155. You would owe sales tax.

Actually you probably owe sales tax on a private sale of a used personal automobile, depending on the state regulations. You would certainly owe sales tax on the resale of new unused autos, and you might also run afoul of state regulations on retail vehicle sales.

This guy was in the black market auto business evading taxes.

[cowman]

157. Not here in NV.

[Warren Stupidity]

294. Then I suggest you restrict your travels to NV.

As the horrors of democratic socialistic sales taxes, and the requisite MEN WITH GUNS, are pervasive in our communistic republic.

Meanwhile NV has all sorts of business regulations which, if you willfully evade them, result again in the whole MEN WITH GUNS situation. What will you do?

[cowman]

304. I don't have to do anything

I obey the law. And if I want to travel outside of NV. I will because I am a law abiding citizen although I will admit that I don't like travelling outside of my time zone except when I go train with other Fire Depts.

[cowman]

51. Yeah enforcing the law

which he can make up as he goes along.
How's that for a snappy comeback?

[Bodhi BloodWave]

73. a rather poor one i would have to say

Unless you can prove your claim ofcourse

[cowman]

82. A poor one to you

but to the one that counts, namely me, I thought it was pretty good

[Warren Stupidity]

125. How's that for a snappy comeback?

Well it is just ignorant. Venezuela is only a dictatorship in the crazy-rightwing us media. Instead it is a democracy with a legislature, a president, laws, regulations etc. A pretty normal place except of course if you have an allergic reaction to democratic socialism. Chavez cannot just make up laws as he goes along.

[miscsoc]

85. It's legitimate to use legal means to silence organizations involved in genuine sedition

With a history of involvement with schemes to overthrow constitutional democracy. (Cursory googling shows that the channel were complicit with the coup against chavez, although if that's wrong feel free to correct me)

At least as legitimate as, say, aggressively pursuing a mobster for tax evasion because they had committed other crimes that they could not be effectively prosecuted for.

The fact is that in Venezuela there is a real organized opposition to democracy of any form. It's easy for comfortable foreigners like most of us to high-mindedly insist he should adhere religiously to our conception of the rule of law (which has its merits) - but do we really have the moral high ground when the actual effects of such behaviour are likely to ease the return of a much worse oligarchy and increase the suffering of the Venezuelan majority?

[era veteran]

87. No one mentioned this part of the post

"the only TV station still openly critical of leftist President Hugo Chavez"..... What a great place to live the government is perfect and needs no critical TV telling people that their workers paradise has faults. Fair Politics requires an opposition to keep a fair exchange of thoughts and information. This post does not need another debating trick about Colombia.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cowman]

93. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, blah, blah, blah

Whatever dude. Stop trying to hijack the thread.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bozita]

119. Isn't that pretty much what happened here during the run-up to Iraq?

"What a great place to live the government is perfect and needs no critical TV telling people that their workers paradise has faults."

[NeedleCast]

122. Of Course, Everyone Loves Chavez

They don't care that Venezuela's economy is in the toilet while most other South American countries are experiencing economic growth. The only sensible argument is that, despite constant brown-outs and power rationing, a crumbling economy and other questionable governance, that everyone in Venezuela is having a great experience with Chavez...

[girl gone mad]

144. If you think Venezuela's economy is "crumbling"..

then what are we to make of the United States and Europe?

In America a massive equities and housing collapse; a derivatives disaster which required more than $23 trillion in government bailouts and backstops; the private debt crises that our oligarchical collectivists shuffled on to the public balance sheet, in the process burdening us with a dangerous sovereign debt crisis; lingering double digit employment; bogged down in expensive unwinnable wars, and now an epic environmental disaster on our hands all because we need cheap oil and our politicians are greedy pigs?

What of Europe, with its monetary union in real danger of breaking up and meanwhile bond vigilantes threatening to destroy one state after another, and demanding middle class austerity so they can continue to support their yacht habits without ever having to lift a finger?

One would have to have his head up his ass to believe that Venezuela, with a government surplus and no dependence on foreign energy, is in poor shape on the international stage. They took their pain up front, and good on them for doing so. I think they will probably see growth in the near future, while America and Europe will stagnate, likely for another decade, under the thumb of a parasitic financial class - the same group which seeks to destroy Chavez, fwiw, and a failed economic paradigm that those greedy, short-sighted politicians continue to prop up.

[cowman]

150. Riiiiiiight

and the moon might be made of green cheese but I seriously doubt it.

[girl gone mad]

152. What kind of response was that?

Can you address any of my points?

Can you at least hobble together a mediocre argument in support of your snarky nothing statement?

[cowman]

156. Sure

well for starters their infrastructure is crumbling, their electrical grid is failing, there are brownouts in cities, their distribution system is antiquated, Chavez is chasing out foreign investment because he tends to nationalize corporations he doesn't like and what about the corruption in the govt. Not saying the U.S. doesn't have problems but then again this is about Chavez not other countries

[girl gone mad]

167. Whatever.

You blame Chavez for a problem that long preceded him (lack of investment in infrastructure) and you equate a mild nuisance, brown-outs, to the massive instability and pain we are seeing in Western economies. Were the brown outs in California also caused by leftists, in your eyes?

Corruption? No, the US has no room to talk after a cadre of Goldman Sachs insiders just raped the American taxpayers to the tune of trillions of dollars. Please. We just made Venezuelan cronyism look like kindergarten play.

You want to talk about the Venezuelan economy "crumbling", then your proclamation should contain perspective. We're in the midst of a global crisis and Venezuela is a player in the global economy. The only significant problem Venezuela currently faces is inflation, but it is nothing compared to what S. American economies struggled with in the 90s. On top of that, it's been improving and could be fixed with good monetary policy. The upside of this inflation is that PDVSA is cushioned from the collapse in oil prices and as a result Venezuela sees surpluses and can now invest more in repairing infrastructure, if they choose.

If the Venezuelan economy is "crumbling", then we must be near nuclear meltdown with our policy makers struggling to plug every last leak with piles of printed money before they shove our middle class into the reactor core and flee to their compounds in Paraguay.

[cowman]

169. Oh yeah

Venezuela is such a paradise. the massive corruption is preventing improvements in their infrastructure and the mismanagement of the economy is really something else, he is instituting socialism when just about every country that has tried it is now getting away from it. Even Pres. Lulu is using a combo of free market and socialism which seems to be working pretty well.

[girl gone mad]

172. Massive corruption, crumbling infrastructure, mismanaged economy..

Sounds more like the USA to me.

[cowman]

178. Well I can't argue

with you on that point. I am in total agreement with you there.

[MyNameGoesHere]

334. No worse than any other country including the USA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_outages#2009

[Judi Lynn]

313. What would make you imagine CNN's claim is accurate? Have they turned a new leaf?

CNN is not the last word on Venezuela, far from it. Their sister station in Caracas is extremely anti-Chavez, and handed them out a ton of bogus material supposedly regarding the coup, f'r instance that Hugo Chavez had resigned, etc., etc. which they gleefully broadcast immediately, spreading disinformation instantly, so we were in the dark along with Venezuelan citizens who were being information-blocked with constant reruns of old, stupid American programs, and movies, with NO NEWS whatsoever letting them know there had been a coup. The coup plotters also had the mayor of Caracas shut down the community owned Katia tv station, closed it completely, took away their broadcasting equipment so they couldn't inform their listeners that their elected President had been taken at gunpoint out of his office and was being held against his will.

Fortunately there were not only loyal soldiers who helped, but crowds and crowds of Chavez supporters who FINALLY learned and surged through the streets to demand the return of their elected President.

CNN has had a distinctly hard right-wing ((((( spin ))))) for years and YEARS. They appear to be chasing Fox for idiot ratings.

It's a simple, quick, ignorant, and bogus claim you've latched onto, just what the doctor ordered for anti-leftist dregs who don't believe in Latin America's right to FINALLY find its own way without interference from the Pentagon, from the State Department, from the US government serving corporate media.

It's time for Latin Americans to set their own course, not US American power-mad, primitive, grabby, greedy simply rude, racist clowns.

"No one mentioned this part of the post." You have to attribute that to good sense.

[cowman]

316. On that I will agree with you

that Latin America should set it's own course without U.S. meddeling.

[BzaDem]

134. The "disproportionate outrage" argument is very interesting.

After all, much of this board's commentary is criticism of Democrats for not being sufficiently liberal (or not achieving sufficiently liberal policies).

Yet when one posts about how Republicans are much, much worse, and there is disproportionate outrage directed at Democrats given how much worse Republicans are, they are laughed off the thread.

So this argument can really be used to attack a huge portion of all the threads here.

When one's argument can be used to attack such a large body of commentary, perhaps the argument itself is of low quality.

In the case of criticism of Democrats, the reason why much commentary on this board consists of such criticism is because we all AGREE that Republicans are much worse. That's why there is more criticism of Democrats than Republicans. There is less value in preaching to the choir.

The same holds here. Everyone would agree that the actions of the Colombian government are outrageous. So much so that it goes without saying. This is similar to the reason why we don't see that many posts arguing that a Republican policy proposal of (say) cutting taxes on the rich and raising them on the poor is wrong. Most here agree that it is wrong. Posts here gravitate towards areas of argument, where there is disagreement.

There is disagreement about Chavez's actions. Hence the OP. Saying that we should instead look at some other issue we all agree upon is irrelevant to the argument at hand.

[cowman]

139. Very well stated

but you will never convince The Magistrate of that

[The Magistrate]

140. Unfortunately, Sir, That is Not Established

It is by no means clear the usual opponents of Col. Chavez here are much opposed to the Uribe government, and that will be clear to anyone who has followed the debate on this matter here over any length of time. For example, statements by the Uribe government about Venezuelan links to guerrillas in Colombia tend to be treated at face value by regular opponents of Col. Chavez, and claims from the Uribe government Venezuela plots invasions and overthrows are similarly taken at face value by many. There is considerable grounds for belief many who regularly oppose Col. Chavez here have a problem, not with human rights violations, but with left revolution and left governments in Latin America, and in a pinch can 'understand' the excesses of the Uribe government in warding off left revolution.

[Dreamer Tatum]

138. From all the misdirection to Colombia

you'd think just mayyyyyybe Chavez and his legions of supporters (all of whom are writing from their ultra-safe bunkers here in the United States) sort of DEPEND ON Colombia's RW regime for cover.

Gee. I wonder what Chavez could get away with if he could just get everyone to look over THERE for a few minutes...

[The Magistrate]

145. Col. Chavez, Sir, Trims Many Things Pretty Close

It is uncomfortable to be in prominent opposition to his government, but it has not been lethal, and shows no signs it will become so.

There is no doubt Col. Chavez is engaged a revolutionary restructuring of Venezuelan society, which involves expropriations and redistributions. Naturally, those expropriated resist, and just as naturally, the revolutionary government considers overcoming that resistance to be part of its business.

It is possible the thing may degenerate into 'Peronism' in time, and while that would be a poor outcome, it would at least have churned the elites, and put some people born on the bottom into the upper strata.

But make no mistake; the concentration of criticism on Col. Chavez is not because he is a fascist or a dictator or insane, or any of the rest of it: criticism is concentrated on him because he represents a threat to foreign business interests in Latin America, and to native elites in other Latin American countries.

[Dreamer Tatum]

147. If you say so. Must be nice to be so sure of everything 2500 miles away. nt

[The Magistrate]

154. Any Substantial Disagreement You Care To Present, Sir?

From whatever distance it must cover....

[cowman]

168. Yeah

and his heros are Castro, who has a workers paradise modeled after the former Soviet Union, and the nut bag leader of Iran whose name I cant even spell, and lets not forget about N.Korea, all perfect democracies

[The Magistrate]

170. So What, Sir? He Has Made Very Few Corpses....

It helps to stick to the basics of these things, and one of the most basic elements is whether opponents of the regime die or do not. Col. Chavez opponents do not die. In neighboring Colombia, opponents of the regime, union organizers, people who 'look like guerrillas' die routinely. It is quite clear which is a 'freer' country....

[cowman]

171. Show me where I said that Colombia is a freer nation?

I never said it and once again what does Colombia have to do with Chavez?

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

188. Hugo Chavez is as nutty as a squirrel turd.

He's absolutely nuts. Where did they find this guy?

[The Magistrate]

189. Now There, Sir, Is Cogent Comment Displaying a Real Grasp Of the Matter At Hand

Anyone the U.S. business and political establishment does not like is called insane....

[TexasObserver]

190. Hugo Chavez couldn't find his ass with both hands. He's that incompetent.

[The Magistrate]

191. And Yet He Runs a Country, Sir, While You Run Your Mouth On a Message Board

Life is so unfair sometimes, eh? Surely you would do a much better job of taking power in a major oil-producing country, and holding it in the face of opposition from the local business elite and the United States....

[TexasObserver]

192. Hugo Chavez is a thief and a murderer of innocents.

You really should try to stop your personal attacks on me and others in this thread.

[The Magistrate]

193. If you Think I Have Made Personal Attacks, Sir, By All Means, Alert

There is a post up-thread flat-out calling me 'an ass-hole', so you will have to go some to match or exceed that....

It is not my problem if you do not like exposure of the fact that you display a selectivity and disproportion in outrage sufficient to establish you have no genuine interest in protesting outrages against human rights and liberty, but only employ these things as a rhetorical cudgel against a left government you disapprove of. But your lack of pleasure in the business does not make it a personal attack.

[TexasObserver]

194. Hugo Chavez steals property and calls it reform.

[The Magistrate]

195. 'Property Is Theft', Sir, Someone Once Said

What do you image revolution is, Sir?

[Name removed]

196. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

199. Did You Alert On Nos. 146 And 158, Sir?

"Enquiring minds want to know!"

[cowman]

200. Yes I was and I finished so the rest of the night is mine unless we get called out

which will probably happen being this is Las Vegas.
You can repeat your drivel all you want, doesn't make it true and you are correct about being illogical

[cowman]

202. No I did not

[The Magistrate]

203. Why Not, Sir? They Are Blatant Personal Attacks....

[cowman]

205. And saying that just because I made a sarcastic remark about Uribe

being my hero is a true statement from me is not a personal attack?
Pot meet kettle

[The Magistrate]

206. As The Man Said, Sir, 'There's Many A Truth Said In Jest'....

There is little point to explaining the difference between taking a person's words at face value, and calling a person a moron or saying a person is full of shit, to someone who either cannot see, or pretends to be unable to see, the difference....

[cowman]

209. And there is little point to explaining sarcasm to someone who is so

biased that most people are laughing at you. In your world everything said in jest is the truth right?
I should have known you wouldn't know the phrase jumping the shark, anyone here want to explain to the magistrate what that means?

[The Magistrate]

211. Again, Sir, It Must Be Obvious To All Sarcasm is Utterly Beyond My Comprehension

[cowman]

207. And do you know what the phrase jumping the shark means?

inquiring minds want to know

[The Magistrate]

208. You Would Seem, Sir, To Be Providing Us With An Illustration....

[cowman]

210. Just as I thought

you don't know what it means

[The Magistrate]

212. Or, Sir, It Could Simply Amuse Me You Watch You Display Such Passion For The Capillary....

Who can tell, in such recondite mental wrestlings....

[cowman]

213. So you don't know what it means

What amuses me is seeing you make a total fool of yourself.
the phrase jumping the shark refers to an episode of Happy Days where the Fonz jumps a shark enclosure on water skis, It was so ridiculous that everyone knew that the show had run its course and was really becoming "out there".

[The Magistrate]

214. Well, If It Amuses You, Sir, No Room For Complaint From Me....

"At the end of the day, it's a perfect storm, laser-focused, twenty-four-seven, on the bottom line!"

[TexasObserver]

197. Hugo Chavez mocks Hillary Clinton as "blond Condoleezza Rice"

Hugo Chavez mocks Hillary Clinton as "blond Condoleezza Rice"

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/816289-hugo-chavez-mocks-hillary-clinton-as-blond-condoleezza-rice

"To me, she's like Condoleezza Rice ... a blond Condoleezza," said the Venezuelan, referring to former U.S. president George W. Bush's secretary of state.

Hillary Clinton had previously stated that the Obama administration's policies toward the region were helping blunt the criticism of leftist leaders such as Chavez.

Chavez has criticised Clinton's recent comments in Brazil, saying she was proving to be equally aggressive as Condoleezza Rice. "She comes to Brazil to provoke us, to try and divide us from our brothers."



Hugo Chavez is a real asshole.

[The Magistrate]

198. The Horror, Sir! Whatever Will He Do Next!?!?!

[TexasObserver]

201. Sean Penn Suggests Prison Time for Journalists Who Call Hugo Chavez a Dictator

At the end of a discussion of Haiti on HBO’s Real Time with Bill Maher, actor Sean Penn went on a rant in defense of Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez, suggesting prison time for American journalists: "every day, this elected leader is called a dictator here, and we just accept it! And accept it. And this is mainstream media, who should – truly, there should be a bar by which one goes to prison for these kinds of lies."

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2010/03/08/sean-penn-suggests-prison-time-journalists-who-call-hugo-chavez-dictator#ixzz0rMGC4KfC

[The Magistrate]

204. He Is An Actor, is He Not, Sir? Once Married To Someone Called 'Madonna'?

[Dreamer Tatum]

217. Do you have, like, a macro that inserts "Sir" after every comma?

It's sort of off-putting.

[The Magistrate]

219. Do You have Any Substantial Argument You Care To Present, Sir?

Any reason, perhaps, why it should excite me to greater outrage that an arrest warrant is issued by Venezuela for a coup plotter than it does that thousands of young men and women are murdered for bounty money by the Colombian army? To take just one example....

[Mudoria]

235. Won't take the Chavinistas long to bombard this thread

It's like the old days when Republicans kissed W's ass because he was their boy, by God!

:popcorn:

[The Magistrate]

236. Have You Heard, Sir, the One About the Two Marines On the Bon Homme Richard?

They heard John Paul Jones shout "I have not yet begun to fight!" and one turned to the other and said "There's always some sonuvabitch who's slow to get the word...".

[HughMoran]

245. I've never seen you make such wrong-headed arguments before

I have generally respected your arguments over the years, yet in this thread you've chosen the reflexive/distraction technique - a guaranteed loser.

Has somebody taken over your account?

[The Magistrate]

251. Then Perhaps, Sir, You Might Want To Think Twice About Your View Of The Matter

And of the opposition....

[HughMoran]

256. ...and wouldn't you like me to take a stance on the issue!

I'm suggesting that your argumentative technique is highly flawwed without taking a stance on such an emotional issue.

Will you address my point or continue to distract?

Is it permissible, Sir, to criticize Venezuela without also including Columbia in the discussion?

[cowman]

268. Not according to him. N/T

[jonnyblitz]

280. you all don't like the inclusion of Columbia because it proves

his point. You all need to get your Chavez news from somewhere besides FOX and CNN because you are all so very misinformed and are spewing the establishment propaganda line. you embarrass yourselves. :crazy:

[cowman]

295. The only one who has embarrassed themself

is you. Why don't you learn something about me before you open your piehole?
How long did it take you to come up with this bullshit?

[Forkboy]

297. The only way we can learn about you is by your words here.

[The Magistrate]

301. You Will Enjoy No. 271 Above, My Friend....

[Forkboy]

353. I see no need to limit my enjoyment to just one post.

;)

[cowman]

307. Ok

kiddies, and what have you learned?
lets see, just because I don't condemn Uribe on a thread about Chavez then, according to The Magistrate, I support Uribe and when I make a sarcastic remark, it's deemed as how I really think by said poster.
That about cover it?

[Forkboy]

352. I've learned a lot. Probably not what you hoped for, however.

[cowman]

355. Damn

now I quite contrite because you don't like what I write.
Whoops, I'm a poet and don't know it
A rhyme everytime
Do you honestly think I care what you think of me?
I'm 60 years old sonny, I quit caring along time ago what people think of me

[Forkboy]

371. "Do you honestly think I care what you think of me?"

Cared enough to reply.

[ChangoLoa]

309. May I ask what opposition are you referring to?

The one who was with Chavez when the 2002 coup happened? The "coupsters"? The ones in the army who refused the coup and fought back to put him back in power? The ex-chavista parties who were thrown out of the government alliance when they refused the one party logic? The maoists? Socialists? Socio-democrats? Demo-christians? The traditional unions? The ones who were allied with the government until recently?

Perhaps we all might want to rethink the stereotypes and lieux communs we use so frequently to describe third world countries' political situations? Or maybe those mysterious parts of the world are somehow free of nuance?

This would apply for anti-chavistas and chavistas equally.

Regards

[The Magistrate]

312. Purely Referring To My Opponents In This Thread, Sir

[ChangoLoa]

318. A non sterile digression from my part may I hope. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

296. LEAVE OUR HUGO OUTRAGE THREADS ALONE!!!!

You all should at least get together and cook up cogent arguments with at least something resembling facts to back them up. As it is this thread is full of the pathetic fail due to your side's inability to conduct a proper argument.

[cowman]

308. If you had been following the conversation

my bitch was that because we didn't condemn the mass murderer Uribe on a thread about Chavez then we must support what is happening in Colombia.
My dislike of Hugo is my personal opinion and I'm not trying to shove my opinion on other people.

[The Magistrate]

310. So, Sir, You Do Consider Mass Murder Worse Than Seeking Interpol Aid In Arresting A Fugitive?

Which do you think ought to excite greater outrage among left and progressive persons in the United States?

[cowman]

319. I never said I didn't

you are the one who suggested that because we didn't condemn Uribe on a Chavez discussion that somehow we supported Uribe.
Just for your satisfaction, I condemn Uribe more than Chavez. Happy?

[The Magistrate]

321. Now How Hard Was That, Sir? Mass Murder Is Worse Than An Interpol Warrant For a Black Marketeer....

You could have said that yesterday afternoon just as easily as you did just now.

Perhaps, when next the topic comes up, you will remember that you know the Uribe government commits far worse crimes than the Chavez government does, and that the people of Latin America ought to be able to settle their affairs without interference from the United States government. If you do, it will greatly reduce the unpleasantness sometimes attendant on the subject. We would, for instance, have had no quarrel whatever.

[cowman]

326. Yes I could have

but the discussion was about Chavez and not about Uribe.
I never said that Chavez was worse than Uribe, what I was objecting to was your assertation that because we weren't condemning Uribe on a discussion about Chavez that somehow we supported what was happening in Colombia and when I made a sarcastic remark in jest you took it as thats how I truly felt about the situation and no matter what I said, you were convinced thats how I really felt.
It seems we are getting more civil now, I like that

[The Magistrate]

328. Everything Is Connected, Sir

There are colors that look brown if you put them next to green, and green if you put them next to red....

[cowman]

333. Well you do have a point there

on that note I will say goodbye and have a great life and a great day. I am going to get some well deserved sleep.
Peace Out:toast:

[Forkboy]

299. 235 replies in.....

There's a bold prediction!

[dipsydoodle]

291. Good

.

[Judi Lynn]

331. Venezuela: The Spin vs. The Truth

Venezuela: The Spin vs. The Truth

As demonstrated in numerous examples in “South of the Border,” major U.S. media outlets have distorted their audiences’ perceptions of Venezuela and the government of Hugo Chávez. Most media reports on Venezuela frame their stories in ways that are likely to make American audiences distrustful and apprehensive of Venezuela. These frames are reinforced by commonly repeated media myths and inaccuracies that further tend to portray the Venezuelan government as an enemy of the United States, and as an increasingly totalitarian government that is stifling dissent, cracking down on the press, and eroding democratic freedoms. These frames and myths – “spin,” in public relations-speak – overlook an abundance of evidence to the contrary.

~snip~
Spin: Chávez is clamping down on freedom of the press.

The Truth: Venezuela continues to have strong opposition broadcast and print media, as any casual visitor to Venezuela can plainly see. The supposed deterioration of freedom of the press under the Chávez government is a favorite theme of U.S. media coverage of Venezuela, and it is regarding this topic that the gap between reality and media claims is usually at its widest. Anyone who travels to Venezuela will easily find numerous front-page criticisms and broadcast denunciations of the Chávez government that go well beyond the sort of attacks on Obama that appear in the U.S. press. Yet that Chávez is attempting to “eliminate independent media”<1> by “muzzling the press”<2> are favorite themes for U.S. editorial pages, with news articles chiming in that “Chavez’s administration is moving to tighten its grip over Venezuela’s media industry.”<3> U.S. media coverage has often also distorted the facts regarding the Venezuelan government’s conflicts with opposition media outlets, some of which have openly supported undemocratic and extra-constitutional means to undermine or even overthrow the government.

Claims that Chávez is an enemy of press freedom reached a peak in 2007 when the Venezuelan government chose not to renew the broadcast license of opposition TV station RCTV. U.S. media and commentators claimed that RCTV was being “censored”<4> and “shut down”<5>, but in reality, RCTV continued to broadcast via cable and Internet with large audience numbers, and maintaining its anti-Chávez line. While opponents of the government criticized the decision to allow RCTV’s license to expire, it is important to note that a TV station that had done even some of the things that RCTV had done would never obtain a broadcast license in the United States or any European democracy. Most importantly – as was admitted in news articles on the controversy,<6> RCTV openly supported the 2002 coup against Chávez by encouraging people to participate in opposition protests, by reporting the false information that Chávez had resigned,<7> and then, when Chávez returned to power, by airing Disney cartoons rather than report this news.<8> RCTV head Marcel Granier met with coup president Pedro Carmona during the coup, as Carmona enlisted the media’s help in attempting to ensure the coup’s success.<9> RCTV also actively promoted the oil strike (2002-2003) that attempted to topple the government, and other, legal political and electoral campaigns.

Even some observers who harshly criticized the government’s decision on RCTV admitted that the issue was much more complicated, and that RCTV was not automatically entitled to its license. “Broadcasting companies in any country in the world, especially in democratic countries, are not entitled to renewal of their licenses,” José Miguel Vivanco of Human Rights Watch explained. “The lack of renewal of the contract, per se, is not a free speech issue. Just per se.”<10>

In the years since the RCTV decision, instead of correcting its hyperbolic claims of Venezuelan censorship, U.S. media outlets have continued the theme. The new focus is on broadcaster Globovisión, routinely described as “Venezuela’s only remaining opposition TV television station on the open airwaves.”<11> This characterization is simply false, as numerous local TV stations in Venezuela have an opposition political line (and national broadcasters such as Televen continue to run programs with a strong opposition slant). The great majority of Venezuelan media continues to be privately owned, and the opposition dominates the newspaper industry as well. As Human Rights Watch – a frequent critic of freedom of the press in Venezuela – noted in a 2008 report, “the balance of forces in the print media has not changed significantly”, with the majority of Venezuelan newspapers continuing to be privately-owned and two of the three top newspapers maintaining an opposition political line (the third is neutral).<12>

U.S. press reports also frequently describe a shift among some opposition media, such as TV station Venevisión, towards being less critical of the government.<13> While U.S. media often suggests that this could be out of fear of “censorship,” Venezuela-analyst Greg Wilpert offers another theory: “I think some of the TV stations have slightly moderated not because of intimidation, but because they were losing audience share. Over half of the population is supportive of Chávez. They’ve reduced the number of anti-Chávez programs that they used to have. But those that continue to exist are just as anti-Chávez as they were before.”<14>

More:
http://southoftheborderdoc.com/spin-vs-the-truth/

:hi:

[Tempest]

339. It will fall on mostly blind eyes

But thanks for posting this.

[Judi Lynn]

341. You're right. If they were going to read for truthful information they would have found it

long ago, and moved to the mentally stable side of US/Latin American policy opinion.

Thanks for checking it out.

[Dreamer Tatum]

342. Judi, you'd be credible if you ever had even ONE negative thing to say about Chavez.

But you've never even mustered the slightest of criticisms, which makes you a shill and a hack. And transparent.

[The Magistrate]

343. And You, Sir, Would Be More Credible If You Ever Demonstrated A Grasp of Facts In The Matter

You have yet to make a comment on the subject here that demonstrates you have any deeper acquaintance with the subject than can be acquired by occasionally watching 'Headline News'.

[Dreamer Tatum]

344. Even if that were true, I'd prefer Headline News to searching the Net for exactly the "news" I want.

Interesting how you guys always have complete, unfettered access to "The Truth" and people are forced to come to you for it.

Really interesting.

[The Magistrate]

345. By All Means, Sir, Display Your Knowledge Of the Subject

Convince me, and other on-lookers, you have the better grasp of Venezuelan history, economics, and political life.

[Dreamer Tatum]

346. I don't. I'm forced to read news. But I read it ALL. nt

[The Magistrate]

347. So You Admit, Sir, Your Grasp Of the Facts Is Of A Smaller Bore Than Those You Engage and Disparrage

And this despite your being 'forced' to read news. What a horrid, horrible fate, to read 'all' the news, and yet encounter people who do not scatter when you intone 'Bullshit!' at them in a debate....

[Tempest]

368. Now where have we heard that before?

Wasn't that almost exactly what Palin said?

And she still couldn't name one newspaper she claimed to have read.

[The Magistrate]

381. True, Sir

[Judi Lynn]

348. So you imagine it's just fine to label people with whom you disagree as shills, hacks.

You could use some practise dealing with conflict maturely.

I have no interest in finding something negative to say about Hugo Chavez. He's doing his job, and if he doesn't he'll be replaced and the people of Venezuela will most certainly expect the NEXT President to continue the work he has started.

Why don't you spend some time looking for important material on the internetS to dangle before our eyes in order to entice us to see Hugo Chavez the way you, with your thorough, firm knowledge of the subject already see it.

Don't yammer on about how steamed your are at others' opinions: provide the information they need to change. If it's real, it will have that vital ring of truth which will make them take notice, and think it over.

Good luck.

[The Magistrate]

350. It is, Ma'am, A Surpassing Oddity

To see a man proclaim he does not know very much about a subject, and do so with a tone of pride in the fact, as if that were a good thing, and establishes that he will, and has, prevailed....

"Anything someone does not understand he thinks is very simple."

[Judi Lynn]

361. That's solid.They don't believe there is more to learn or fear they don't know enough. Sad! n/t

[Tempest]

369. LOL!

You really need to stop setting the bar so high, Judi.

Expecting them to actually come up with valid arguments and evidence is asking entirely too much of them. All they come up with are biased sources and questionable rumors.

[Tempest]

367. The truth hurts, doesn't it?

The vast majority of the negative attacks against Chavez are unwarranted and are not supported by the facts.

[Catherina]

378. That's rich. Say the same thing about diehard Obama supporters

and your post gets deleted.

Say it about people who stick to facts when defending a left wing government and it's ok.

How about some consistency?

You think it's funny to call people shills and hacks when you don't even know what you're talking about?

Disturbing.

[spanza]

402. You send a link promoting a movie?! Some honesty please... nt

[Judi Lynn]

407. Documentary. Fact based. n/t

[spanza]

410. Fact based? Opinion based, you mean. Why is there no opponent interviewed? nt

[leftstreet]

360. IBTL

Oh wow. How did I miss the bi-monthly anti Chavez fest?

:popcorn:

[The Magistrate]

365. No, Sir, It Got Smacked Into A Detour Somewhere South Of Albequerque....

Never really managed a good head of steam, somehow....

[Judi Lynn]

366. They all follow the same pattern, apparently! The usuals pile on as soon as the thread appears,

all anounce their eternal contempt for Venezuela's elected President, then start taking shots at the Democrats they expect will start arriving with the facts.

Pretty standard. Their highest hope is to get in a lot of licks before anyone sensible sees them.

[MyNameGoesHere]

382. Thanks

You have posted quite a few even keeled responses. Have you ever been to this site?

http://venezuelanalysis.com/

I in particularly liked the Rednecks in Chavezland article. Lot of other good reading as well. http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5430

[Nye Bevan]

392. There's something very familiar about Chavez's behavior

Here's some more food for thought:

A report by the human rights watchdog of the Organization of American States warns of a possible “threat to the life and physical integrity of the Jewish community in Venezuela” due to the Chavez regime’s violations of the political and human rights of its citizens.

In a lengthy report publicized in late February, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) accused the government of Venezuela of fostering an atmosphere of “political intolerance” and “a climate hostile to the free exercise of dissenting political participation.”

It blasted the prevailing “citizen insecurity” in the country and saved its harshest criticism for “the prevailing impunity affecting cases of human rights violations,” including in cases of police misconduct, abuse of authority, and even torture.

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=170529

Perhaps the DU Chavez apologists should think again.

[TexasObserver]

394. Does this mean Chavez is anti-semitic, too?

The article seems to say so.

[The Magistrate]

396. Well, Sir, Which Is It: Marxist Or Nazi?

"Better go home, son, and make up your mind."

[TexasObserver]

397. Chavez is a garden variety petty tyrant.

Marxist and Nazi are labels I don't use.

He's just your average dictator.

[The Magistrate]

398. Your Average Elected Leader, Sir, Might Be More Accurate....

It must be obvious to you that you are by now simply flinging charges in the hope some of it will stick to the wall; it is abundantly clear to the audience....

[TexasObserver]

399. Chavez is an average dictator - a cretin who, like Hitler, was once elected.

Hitler and Chavez: both elected, both became dictators, both allegedly socialists, both batshit crazy.

[The Magistrate]

400. So Today, Sir, You Are Going With Nazi?

You do understand this is not just an all-purpose term of abuse, but relates to an actual historical episode, involving actual ideology and events, with a body of facts attendant, preserved in a fairly complete historical record?

You should understand further that simply shrieking 'Nazi!', like simply shrieking 'Commie!' does no more than make clear to all you have no argument to proffer, no understanding of the matter you attempt to comment on, and not the slightest command of or interest in the facts of the situation.

[TexasObserver]

413. Today I'm going with Chavez is a dictator, same as yesterday, and the day before.

I've been clear on this point. There's no confusion.

Chavez is merely a garden variety, incompetent dictator. His alleged ideology is immaterial.

[The Magistrate]

415. Then Why, Sir, This Incessant Trotting Out Of Demons In the Question?

The likeliest answer, of course, is that you know you cannot support any high dudgeon against the man on the actual facts, and so must resort to atmospherics, of which you have a poor and unsubtle command....

You have, after all, made clear your real objection is to socialism, and any attempt to put into force in a society.

[TexasObserver]

416. Chavez is a dictator. I don't use terms such as "demons."

I'm grounded in the real world, where dictators are judged by their actions.

[The Magistrate]

417. No, Sir, You Simply Invoke Demons, Such As 'Hitler', 'Marxist', Etc.

You do so because you cannot hope to prevail in an argument in which facts are cited in support of logical structures and sound theoretical outlooks.

[TexasObserver]

418. No, I don't. Those are terms YOU have invoked repeatedly.

I've never referred to Hugo Chavez as a Marxist or as a Nazi. Ever. Anywhere.

I challenge to you prove I've ever posted here that Hugo Chavez is a Marxist or a Nazi. You can't do it because it's not true.

I have compared Hugo Chavez to Hitler once, in this thread, after your repeated attempts to insinuate Hitler and Nazis into this discussion. I correctly noted the areas in which Hitler and Chavez are similar: both were once elected, both became dictators, and both alleged at some point they were socialists. You cannot challenge what I said, because my comparison between Hitler and Chavez is 100% accurate.

Notice that I criticize Chavez, but you criticize me.

I'll invite you once again to stick to the topic, which is Chavez, not your opinion of me for not agreeing with your opinion of Chavez.

[The Magistrate]

419. You Just Called Him Hitler Immediately Above, Sir

Do you even read the things you post here?

[TexasObserver]

420. No, I didn't. Prove it. Where's the quote?

[The Magistrate]

421. Not A Game Worth Playing, Sir: Your Tactics Are Clear Enough

If you do not like being called on them, do not employ them. This is not a Yahoo forum, or the comments section of your local newspaper.

[TexasObserver]

422. So you admit you can't offer a quote, because I didn't say what you claimed.

[The Magistrate]

423. Your Denials Of Intent, Sir, Are Low Comedy, And Appreciated As Such

Your entire endeavor here has been merely to engage in emotional triggering, with a remarkable, indeed, a chemically pure, absence of fact and understanding in the comments you essay.

[Forkboy]

424. The implication of your comparison is pretty obvious.

People just aren't that dumb to believe that you meant no comparison by raising the specter of Hitler in this thread. :shrug:

[Forkboy]

404. It'll be hard to top this post for funniest of the day.

:rofl:

[The Magistrate]

395. You Might As Well, Sir, Cite 'World Net Daily' On Persecution Of Christians As The J. P. On This....

[fascisthunter]

403. weren't these people involved in the coup?

boohoohoo

and if you really cared about human rights you'd be criticising countries that actually do commit human right's violations.

* notice an uptick in bullying by those who obviously show an agenda against "socialism" yet never attack countries which have real human rights violations.

[Name removed]

408. Deleted message

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