Venezuela's private retailers targeted as Hugo Chávez declares 'economic war'

[demoleft]

You could call Omar Cedeño many things: a class traitor; a tool of international capitalism; a criminal suspect; even an enemy of Hugo Chávez's socialist revolution. You could also call Cedeño, who sells meat from a cramped shop, a butcher.
...
There are fewer jokes these days. Military police recently seized Cedeño and dozens of other butchers on suspicion of overpricing. Cedeño was handcuffed, stripped, interrogated at an army base and charged with speculation. If convicted he faces up to six years in jail.
...
"I'm not a capitalist or a socialist, I'm just a worker. People are being arrested for doing their job," said the 47-year-old, now back at his shop but obliged to report to a tribunal every 15 days until the trial.

Cedeño's alleged crime: selling beef for £4 a kilo, well above the regulated price of £2.58. He does not deny it – prices are marked on a white board behind the counter. "I've got to cover my costs. What business doesn't? Yet eight officials came here to arrest me. It's an abuse of power."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/27/venezuela-hugo-chavez-private-retailers

the whole story is worth reading.

[apocalypsehow]

1. You will soon hear that as long as there is any injustice ANYWHERE, Chavez is off the hook for

ANY act of thuggery he orders his government to engage in EVERYWHERE in Venezuela.

It's the logical fallacy tu quoque on pixellated steroids for the Left-wing equivalent of Francisco Franco, and it never fails to appall, disgust, and (somewhat) sadly bemuse.

[demoleft]

2. no, i do not think so. it used to be like that but now...

...the fighting pro-chavezians do not come anymore to discuss in my posts, their choice and sometimes it's good just the same because it always ended in flamings.
some just limit themselves to unrec - but rec/unrec is not my business. i like people to read or have a look at least - and if they want to comment, they're welcome, like you.

on some topics multi-monologue is preferred to discussion - not my kind of vodka.
ciao ;)

[apocalypsehow]

4. Well, when it comes to vodka, Absolut Citron is my favorite - cheers.

;-)

[demoleft]

5. cheers.

;)

[Clintonista2]

9. +1

[Selatius]

3. Imposing price freezes won't really solve shortages.

If Chavez wanted to approach the shortages in another way, he could offer tax rebates or some other kind of incentive to stimulate production of a certain product or service, such as food crops. This would help bring down prices. If shortages aren't the problem but high prices, then there ought to be investigations into price fixing and collusion and also an examination to see whether there is the presence of a monopoly or an oligopoly that is artificially pegging prices high.

[Egalitariat]

27. Price freezes are what cause shortages.

[MyNameGoesHere]

40. Part of it, not all

Remember there is an election coming up and the opposition party will resort to any tactic to defeat Chavez, even slowing food production to starve the people. They still control a majority of farming lands despite the government efforts to seize idle farms.

[Statistical]

44. The farms which are idle because price controls are BELOW production cost.

Why would anyone produce something when legally the most you can sell it at is less than what it costs you to make it.

Selling above price control is grounds for seizing the farm so they don't produce anything (in hopes eventually economic policies will be rational or at least follow supply & demand). So now not producing is grounds for seizure.

So under the fearless leader economic plan seems the options are
a) illegal sell items for profit = seizure
b) don't participate (idle farms/plants) = seizure
c) continually sell at a loss until you can't make bank payments = seizure.

[KittyWampus]

65. You inadvertently touched on my problem with Chavez. While I support his goal- his economic

decisions are not based on sound principles.

[era veteran]

6. Military police recently seized Cedeño

Have to have the Chavez loyalists bust this enemy of the people. A pity the dictator Chavez has duped so many Americans. Flame On

[JNelson6563]

7. While I could go either way on Chavez

I am also one to be skeptical when a business owner cries poor. So often people who own businesses are very greedy and cry poor even when they are raking it in.

I know here in America business owners are treated with reverence and it is no different here on DU. I sometimes wonder how many DUers would ber perfectly at home at the Chamber of Commerce. Probably too many.

Julie

[pipoman]

12. There are damned few

mom and pop businesses "raking it in". Only people who have never dealt with the complete and total PITA of .gov compliance, taxes, insurance, and employee compensation associated with a small business believe that small business owners are over compensated. Most small business owners got in to make a pile of money, once in they found that they only bought themselves a job, a headache, and increased blood pressure...

[JNelson6563]

15. Really?

Well then I must live in an oasis of sorts because we have many businesses here in a very hard hit state that are doing fabulously well, at least until it comes time to pay the help. Then it is forgotten the fabulous homes, expensive cars and marvelous trips they enjoy and out come the sack-cloth and ashes. So funny to hear them laughing to each other about what low wages they can get away with here in my burg and see so many willing to sell their cross-dragging tale here on DU of all places.

But yeah, I know there are some out there who have no clue what they are doing and literally buy themselves a job when they open for business. Poor sods.

Julie

[sabbat hunter]

34. These aren't large businesses

these are mainly mom and pop type businesses that operate in a poor country. My issue with businesses usually is with big business. Mom and pop businesses are the backbone of this (and many countries)

[HughMoran]

36. We lost money all last year and despise the C of C

I hate generalizations. We're a small company in sales (but bigger than most mom & pops), but it's a tough climate out there. I'm glad both myself and the Pres of the company despise the C of C.

[treestar]

8. Well it is the law there

So what does he expect? He admits he's breaking the law.

[apocalypsehow]

10. Just like the Patriot Act, huh? What can one do in the face of such a thing? Dissent is treason!!!1

:eyes:

[treestar]

42. So you're against Chavez? He's a socialist,. So wasn't this law

there to carry that out?

I'm surprised.

[DainBramaged]

14. Of course, let's have him put to death for making about a buck profit

it's against the law.................


:eyes:


Purity, best left to the newly born.

[Stinky The Clown]

16. You're absolutely correct. He deserves everything he gets.

What a heinous crime. I can't even contemplate the despicabilitudinousness of it all.

[treestar]

43. That's weird. Here is Chavez, a socialist, with a spine

and you're against him enforcing the laws of Venezuela.

So why should BP follow the laws on economic matters here?

[Statistical]

45. So what should the butcher have done?

a) sell at a loss and go bankrupt and lose his shop.
b) not sell anything and face seizure for "idle shop"
c) sell above the law and face seizure for "price gouging".

Seems like lose-lose-lose.

An unjust law is no justice. The idea that Chavez should be applauded for enforcing the law is silly.

Should Obama be applauded for enforcing DADT? After all it is the law. Should we be happy when the military discharges a gay servieman? After all they are breaking the law.

[treestar]

47. Well you can't have it both ways

But the idea was that this is a socialist country, and many on the board want one here. Wouldn't there be laws like this one? We also don't have the full story, just one side. Below, it also says Chavez did not want to go after the butcher himself but suppliers.

[Statistical]

48. So what should the supplier do?

Should he/she sell at a loss? How long can they do that before they go bankrupt.
a) sell at loss & go bankrupt
b) idle farm (because you can't sell at a profit) and face seizure
c) illegal sell at a profit and face seizure

The price controls are so low and so utterly unrealistic that other countries are smuggling food/commodities out of the country. That's right people are going into Venezuala buying up resources and exporting them because the max price is substantially below true value.

It would be like Canada sets a max smellable price on gold at $100 an ounce (or gasoline at $0.20 a gallon). Wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you can go to Canada buy a couple tons of gold bring it to the US and sell it on the open market for a 500% profit overnight.

Price controls don't work. They never have and they never will. The idea that anyone will work for a loss is silly and contrary to human nature.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. So, it seems Chavez hasn't done any better with collective farming than...

Stalin did. It hasn't sunk in that as great as it sounds, it just doesn't work. At least corporate farming, the next worst way, actually puts food on the table. And, the idea of subsidizing food imports to make up for shortages has often enough been the precursor to starvation and misery.

But, rather than give up on state-run farms and unworkable policies, blame inflation on the little guy trying to make a buck.

Venezuela, with its wealth and talent, should be a leader in Latin America, not a ship of fools.

[Imajika]

13. Must be a mistranslation of some kind...

Or, perhaps the Guardian has become a counter revolutionary, right wing, CIA backed paper?

"But problems are mounting. In the name of 'nutritional sovereignty' the government seized 6m hectares (about 15m acres) of farmland, expanded cultivation and set up socialist co-operatives. Results are poor: beef, sugar, coffee and fruit production plunged. Grain and rice output initially rose, but fell last year."

When will people learn. Socialist cooperatives? How many times must this exact same stupidity fail over and over for people to realize government run farms, shops, etc, just do not work.

"Some government-run stores are showing strain: bare shelves and scarce meat."

This is always the result. Government run stores can never be as efficient, dynamic, responsive to the consumer, etc, as private enterprise.

That Chavez has had to resort to these tactics makes it clear his economic plan (is it a 5 year plan per chance?) is failing miserably. Anyone who understands how economies work knew this would be the result.

[Odin2005]

35. Pseudo-populist dictators are notorious for doing economically stupid things.

Look at what Peron did to Argentina.

[MyNameGoesHere]

17. Please add the rest of the story

By FABIOLA SANCHEZ
Associated Press Writer

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - It's getting harder to put meat on the table in Venezuela and the government has been blaming the butchers, arresting dozens on charges of flouting price controls.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Friday night, however, that he disagrees with the tactic of putting butchers behind bars.

Don't mess with the butchers," Chavez said in a televised speech. "The butcher isn't the one who's to blame.

He called on officials to instead scrutinize distributors and big players in the beef business, saying if they're violating price controls "what must be done is expropriate everything from them."

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=111&sid=1952314

People here go ballistic when a crisis causes gas prices to go up and demand the government step in and prosecute oil industry for price gouging. From what I see the whole system is corrupt there with price gouging. Would people here be upset if corporations were actually held accountable for speculation and gouging?

[Statistical]

21. "what must be done is expropriate everything from them."

Sound like some people on DU.

It rarely works. Just seize other peoples stuff without legitimacy of due process. Of course it is so simple.
I mean I steal from you and you steal from me and we both prosper right? Theft = economic expansion.

It is sad that someone hasn't put a bullet in Chavez yet. Directly and indirectly he has killed millions and will kill millions more before he finds himself taking a dirt nap.

[MyNameGoesHere]

23. He has killed millions

and will kill millions more? Wow holy sheep shit in a hand basket. Even the American Enterprise Institute isn't insane enough to try and spread that propaganda. So in a country of 27 million you really assert that a couple of million have been killed by Chavez? Propaganda much? I just want to throw out something here, US policies have killed a few thousand civilians in our recent acts of imperialism. How many does Obama have to kill before you wish a dirt nap on him?

[Warren Stupidity]

51. "Directly and indirectly he has killed millions and will kill millions more "

Please substantiate that claim or admit that you just invented it and are engaged in extreme disinformation.

[EFerrari]

54. You really should know what you're talking about before you with death on other people.

[demoleft]

25. i'm limited to 4 paragraphs by copyright rules. the link is invitation enough to read whole. n/t

[MyNameGoesHere]

28. not your fault

that particular rag of a news media has become anti-Chavez lately. I just offered a article with the same information with the condemnation from Chavez included. It seems the rag you cited missed that little jewel.

[demoleft]

46. i see your point, but the core of the thing does not change. the butcher's in trouble...

...whatever chavez declares about him.

i do not consider The Guardian a bad source just because it's getting critical of chavez or some other leaders. infact you did not put figures in doubt, the story is there to be read.

there have been times that i was told AP was misleading, and i wait to hear about AFP and all news agencies that report something minimally critic of some leaders.

once i quoted the IRNA - there i was not criticized!
;) just kidding.

ciao and thanx for the comments.

[EFerrari]

55. No, the butcher is in trouble because he's price gouging.

And this is a very biased article. Rory Carroll is usually much better than this.


/oops

[demoleft]

57. i see you have few doubts.

and of course The Guardian is biased, i knew it was coming as i posted.
but it's a pleasure to have you here, you're always on topic and quote alternative readings.
that's why i like you.

of course, the portrait and figures given by the article are quite convincing for me.

[EFerrari]

67. I like the Guardian and even this reporter, for that matter.

But on the topic of Venezuela, he is consistently negative, no matter which aspect he's writing about. And that's okay except he's a news reporter, not an opiner. :)

I don't have very recent info about this particular issue. The opposition and Chavez have been having a tug of war over the food supply for years. If I find anything interesting, I put it here. :hi:

[demoleft]

71. and it will be welcome, as always.

:hi:

[COLGATE4]

18. K&R!!!!!!!

[Bonobo]

19. Ask yourself why stories about Chavez are popping up?

Where is the critical thinking on your part, OP'er?

Where are the stories about Colombia? About Uribe and his links to paramilitary groups, illegal wiretaps, bribery?

Ah, that's right...nowhere.

Because you're being used as a facile and willing tool...and you're chomping up every bite you're fed.

[demoleft]

24. now of course The Guardian telling a story is an anti-socialist instrument, right?

that's a story with facts, figures and voices.
the guardian tells it.
i read it and together with other aspects, i make myself an idea.

you have read the story of a butcher in venezuela.
do you have opinions on the matter or just comparing to colombia is critical thinking for you?

have a look at my journal to see what i write about if you want - you're always welcome.

[COLGATE4]

29. Classic deflection

Publish anything critical of Fearless Leader and immediately his unflinching supporters rush to try and change the topic, usually to their favorite hobbyhorse, Uribe.

Just for once, let's let the thread discuss the topic(s) relating to Chavez.

[Unvanguard]

31. This is not a story about Chavez's brutality and dictatorial character.

Quite the contrary, it portrays him basically as he is, a nervous incumbent facing a non-repressed opposition in a democratic election.

His economic policies, unlike his sometimes-authoritarian behavior, are exceptional, and that is what the article is about.

[Fla_Democrat]

20. What a concept

"I've got to cover my costs. What business doesn't? Yet eight officials came here to arrest me. It's an abuse of power."

If a butcher in Caracas can grasp that basic principle....... :think:



:smoke:

[Statistical]

22. Shows how foolish artificial price controls are.

So his cost is >$2.85 yet price control is $2.85 so he should
a) close shop thus lowering supply and worsening situation
b) sell continually at a loss (subsidy others) until he goes bankrupt then maybe someone can subsidize him
c) violate the law, and get arrested.

Price controls rarely ever work. We have centuries of examples where they have failed but IF Venezuela must go down that route a floating max profit is far more workable than fixed target. i.e. the butcher max price can be x% over his cost. As long as he can show his cost he isn't violating the law.

[MyNameGoesHere]

26. The second part of this story

is that wealthy land holders that still control a majority of the usable farming lands have waged an economic war against the elected government. Hoarding and idle farms are still rampant. The agrarian reforms by Chavez have been small and slow to start

The attempt to move towards an agrarian reform has posed the central dilemma of the Bolivarian Revolution point-blank. It is not merely a question of modifying the existing set up. It must be swept away: the agrarian economic and social structure must be utterly transformed. As the Spanish Socialist Largo Caballero once put it: you cannot cure cancer with an aspirin. For this reason the Venezuelan peasants, like their brothers and sisters in the towns and cities, are drawing the most revolutionary conclusions.

[Unvanguard]

32. What, price controls?

Nothing revolutionary about that.

At least according to the Guardian article, state seizure of agricultural lands hasn't gone very well--though that's only to be expected when you're operating under the illusion that you can produce far more cheaply than greedy capitalist hoarders.

[MyNameGoesHere]

38. the greedy hoarders are not

producing. That's part of the problem. They are letting usable farms stand idle in a economic war with Chavez. Production is so bad that for the first time imports of beef are higher than ever. The opposition has gotten smarter. To get rid of Chavez starve the people.

[Unvanguard]

39. From your article:

"Cattle ranchers, though, say supplies have suffered because price controls and other government policies have kept prices unchanged since 2008 even as inflation _ the highest in Latin America _ has sent their costs skyrocketing."

This is a standard consequence of price controls, predictable from basic principles of economics. There is no need to conjure up opposition conspiracies to explain it. The government tried to stop inflation by decree, and got shortages--which is exactly what they should have expected.

[Statistical]

41. Why would you produce something if the max you can sell it at is less than your production cost?

Price controls don't work.

Even IF the price controls were valid at one time they were set in 2006.

Since then Venezuala has had the following inflation:
2006 - 13.7%
2007 - 18.7%
2008 - 30.4%
2009 - 36.5%
2010 - 43.5%

Compounded that is 344$ inflation.

If the US set price controls at $1 per gallon for gasoline guess how much do you think gasoline production would decline?

[CJvR]

30. Venezuela is sinking deeper and deeper it seems.

Blaming the stores is a favorite among regimes with failing economies. IIRC Iran, Iraq and Zimbabwe have been down that road. Naturally a price control can work provided it is realistically managed to take into consideration actual production costs as well as supply and demand - although then you might as well let the market handle price setting. Setting irrational prices to buy popularity is the same as demanding that others should subsidize your regime. Ultimately when all private enterprises have been closed or taken over the regime will still have to pay all the bills it demanded others should pay.

[MyNameGoesHere]

37. Not really

Venezuela’s Recovery Depends on Economic Policy
Mark Weisbrot
Le Monde Diplomatique (France), April 2010
En español

Throughout Venezuela’s record-breaking economic expansion, the government’s opponents – which includes most of the international media as well as Washington – were “crying, waiting, hoping,” as the rock and roll legend Buddy Holly once sang. The “oil bust” had to be just around the corner, they prayed and wrote. But for five and a half years from the first quarter of 2003, when the Chavez government first got control of the state-owned oil company, the real economy grew by 95 percent. Poverty was cut in half and extreme poverty by more than 70 percent, social spending per person more than tripled, and access to health care and higher education rose sharply. The voters rewarded Chavez with a re-election by his widest margin ever, 63% in 2006.

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/Op-Eds-Columns/Op-Eds-Columns/venezuela-is-not-greece.html

With elections upcoming the opposition is enlisting every stoogie they can find to demonize anything Chavez.

[Odin2005]

33. PRICE CONTROLS DON'T WORK!!!

Chavez is an economic illiterate.

[Dogtown]

49. The list of posters in this thread

does not surprise me at all.



Soon there will be none but capitalists patting each other on the back here.

[demoleft]

50. yes, quite a list of democrats who like to read and discuss on the topic, without any labels. n/t

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demoleft]

53. is that all you are able to say? not impressed. n/t

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demoleft]

63. wow, how lovely... n/t

[Dogtown]

81. Oh, my!

I seem to have offended you.

Let me rephrase to say that I doubt your sincerity and question the accuracy of your assessments.

[SunnySong]

56. Isn't Venezuela a foreign country, filled with foreigners, located far far way....

Why would anyone in the US care about their quaint domestic problems?

[demoleft]

58. the world is one and well connected. and it's typical of progressives, to care about everything. n/t

[SunnySong]

64. There is a quiet dignity in staying focused.

I was in quite a few anti-war demonstrations in the last decade and the greatest failure I saw was the ability to stay on or even have a message. Everyone was protesting their own little island.

If I was a native of Venezuela or had relatives there I would elicit concern. I would not expect others to necessarily share my concern.

The Chavez saga seems more of an entertainment of people in the United States like Lost or American Idol. We all pick our sides and we all know how this will end (Hugo is a very typical South American Leader).

Honestly this crisis tourism seems a little distasteful to the people actually living there.

People on this thread remind me of sports radio fans who argue about bonus's given to athletes they don't know and who don't effect their lives.

[demoleft]

68. read some of the posts and you see it is not about chavez personally...

...but about his policies, his idea of socialism, and on like this.
it is worth discussing - in my opinion.

[Warren Stupidity]

75. oh no it is about chavez personally

this thread is not some isolated incident.

These are attacks directly against the person of chavez, who is routinely portrayed, as in this thread, as crazy, as a thug, as a dictator, etc. Each new report from some corporate news source that can possibly be used to justify the next assault ends up right where this thread is ending up.

[demoleft]

77. The Guardian is biased. AP is biased. AFP is biased....

...when it comes to chavez, right?
same old story.

anyway, i read posts about price fixing, state-pervaded economy and its efficacy and such. i read discussions about his way to "socialism", not much about him as a person.

i do not know what you read here in this thread.
to each one his/her own spin.
enjoy yours.

[sufrommich]

59. You don't care what goes on in other countries? nt

[SunnySong]

62. Not to the point of worring about a butcher in Caracas being hassled by the man.

There seems to be a strange fetish with Venezuela. There are countries that have much greater connections economically and socially to the United States and there are countries that are much bigger train wrecks.

Yet the focus is on the internal strife in a relativity insignificant South American county.

[demoleft]

66. it is not "insignificant", in my opinion. and it's worth discussing, as you see from the many posts.

and some are very interesting.

[sufrommich]

69. It's not unusual for liberals to be disappointed when

a country comes out of a rightest dictatorship and seems to be headed toward a less that promising leftist government. In fact, I would posit that a person of the liberal stripe would be more inclined to mourn the loss of what started out as a promising democratic socialist movement to a heavy handed leftist government.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. who are these 'liberals' you speak of?

The chavez flame wars here are between the leftwing and the rightwing of DU. These purported 'disappointed liberals' have been, in my memory, almost always disappointed, almost always opposed to everything chavez, and almost always camped out on their latest assault on social democracy in south america thread shouting "see, we told you so", and "dictator" and "murderer" etc. etc. etc.

[sufrommich]

74. I don't keep track of the Chavez flame wars on DU. I tried to

answer the question as to why posters are so interested in Venezuela.

[demoleft]

78. and you know what? one posts about a topic, and finds himself swamped into chavez as a person.

which is not the topic of the post.

it always happens. chavez, like berlusconi, is magic ;)

[TexasObserver]

61. Hugo Chavez proving he's as wacky as his opponents say he is.

[Warren Stupidity]

73. Crazy for defending this shopkeeper?

"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Friday night, however, that he disagrees with the tactic of putting butchers behind bars. Don't mess with the butchers," Chavez said in a televised speech. "The butcher isn't the one who's to blame."

or some other kind of crazy?

[TexasObserver]

80. He's a loon.

Your opinion may be different. That happens.

[Catherina]

70. Lol. Price gouging now being defended at DU. Priceless n/t

[apocalypsehow]

76. "Price gouging" is not what is being defended. But then, you knew that.

Nice try.

[demoleft]

79. yes, exactly. nice but weak try. n/t