Well, we had one of those "Hands across the Sands" things here...

[TreasonousBastard]

and a few people were all so full of themselves for saving the oceans.

But, every single one of them drove to the beach.

[liberal N proud]

1. When I saw that on the news, I looked at my wife and said the same thing

[TreasonousBastard]

2. Heh. Just now listening to a piece on an NPR station where the reporter...

asks a participant how she feels about driving to the event in a low-mileage minivan.

(The answer was not entirely satisfactory)

[lunatica]

3. It'll be forgotten tomorrow

Symbolic demonstrations are meaningless. Corporations don't give a shit and it's reflected in their bought media and politicians. Whether we like it or not it's a waste of time.

[BeFree]

24. No it won't

Those people went home empowered by the experience.
Internet trolls may forget it but the participants never will.

[lunatica]

28. I speak from experience

If it's just to make themselves feel better then the experience is sublime. But if it's meant to make a difference, it will not only be forgotten, but it will never register on the consciousness of the world.

[KittyWampus]

48. a lot of networking goes on at demonstrations. And the psychological benefit of meeting like-minded

individuals is invaluable.

[TreasonousBastard]

30. It is already forgotten, but symbolic demonstations can be meaningful when...

a part of a general raising of consciousness.

Viet Nam protests did little to end the war until it was time to end the war. Civil rights protests did little until it was time to change the law. The protests coincided with currents of history that allowed the change we needed.

The protests against Bush's wars did nothing, because they were protests in a vacuum with no power or tide of history behind them.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

5. sheesh - you expect them to walk? From how far did they come?

At least they showed up.

[Javaman]

10. Did they help clean the beaches? nt

[eowyn_of_rohan]

13. I can't tell you as I was unable to walk to the Gulf from Wisconsin

and hell if I want to be chastised for DRIVING to take part in a protest.

[Javaman]

14. did I chastise you?

I think you maybe confusing me with someone else

:shrug:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

17. sorry. I didn't mean that towards you.

Just that some here ARE chastising people fot driving to the beach protests. I'm confused alright. Confused and Guilty for not going dowh there to protest, for having a gas-powered vehicle, etc.

[Javaman]

20. No worries.

what I do find interesting is; just how are many of these people supposed to get down to the beach?

Having grown up on Long Island, the beach isn't right around the corner.

The nearest beach to my home was 15 miles. While I did ride my bike many times and also took the bus, in the off season, those options weren't available.

Plus, given this situation, we are talking also about wetlands and frankly, I don't know of anyone who can get to those without driving.

Trying to point out our use and addiction to oil as some sort of irony regarding this situation is nothing more then ridiculous commentary on the obvious.

We drive. It's how our society is set up. Plus those people criticizing those who drive are writing on computers that are made from plastic. ;) we are all guilty and all feed into it, no one escapes.

Cheers!

[BeFree]

23. Guilty?

Guilty of what? You made a claim, try to back it up this time.

""we are all guilty and all feed into it, no one escapes""

[Javaman]

25. okay, now you are just being obtuse.

Since you didn't quote the whole phrase I will do it for you, "Plus those people criticizing those who drive are writing on computers that are made from plastic. we are all guilty and all feed into it, no one escapes."

do you not use plastic items? if not, please tell me, I would love to know how you live a fossil fuel product free life.

[BeFree]

43. What am I guilty of?

Be specific, please.

Can't you answer even one question?

You are here spamming this thread with your questions. Questions that, since no one was there, they can't answer. Maybe you don't quite have the gist of discussion boards?

[Javaman]

45. wow, just wow.

You know what? You appear to be willfully contrary.

I answered your questions, yet you dodge mine.

I tried to have a civil conversation, yet you attack, act hostile and appear to have anger issues.

I just don't have the energy anymore to continue this, now ridiculous, thread.

It appears that you require the last word, as most ill armed and equipped people do, and by you replying, you only support that assertion.

Have a nice day. :)

[TreasonousBastard]

31. We are all guilty, and that is the point. Petroleum is fundamental to everything we do...

the medicines we take, the clothes we wear, the food we eat, our housing, our jobs...

And we do drive a lot. More than necessary for a functioning society.

We consume oil in so many ways, but now we demand they stop drilling for it although we refuse to reduce our consumption. We blame them for spoiling the water and the beaches, which they did, but accept no responsibility for demanding plastic TVs, lawn chemicals, and cheap fuel.

There would be no oil spill if they drilled safely, but they would not be drilling if there were no customers.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

34. And if we had a realistic alternative to oil we'd stop being their customers.

The govt hasnt delivered on that, and they have kow towed to the greedy oil mongers for decades
(done ranting for the evening)

[Javaman]

39. the reality is: there currently is not alt fuel or energy that has the carrying capacity of oil.

Aside from that, there is also nothing else that out puts more than from it's original source.

Oil is concentrated solar energy. After refinement, the total amount of product is larger than the initial content.

Solar, wind, nuclear, tidal, etc, can replace the oil for house hold and maybe vehicular needs, but they won't replace the millions of other products that are made possible via the by products of oil refinement.

While that is not to say, that these items won't be produces via other means: plastics from various vegetable matter. However, we won't be getting them from a single source any longer.

The future the current generation of kids that are currently being born into will be vastly different from anything the modern world has ever experienced.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

41. "CURRENTLY" not a suitable alt fuel

that is my point exactly! If as much time and resources had gone toward developing safe and effective alt fuels as they have for developing the oil industry over the past 60 years, this world would be in a totally different place today.

[Javaman]

44. Ahh, but there was no effort...

We are heading for either a hard landing or a slam into the brick wall energy wise.

Trying to pin our hopes on future innovations is a fools errand.

Working with what we currently have while researching future prospects is always wise, however, unless we start our transition right now, this moment, we are going to be in for a massive disappointment.

The energy and materials required to ramp up the entire nation of 300 million people plus industry is mind-boggling enormous.

We have yet to make any real headway in that direction. Currently, the amount of alt energy being used for just the powering of industry, homes and vehicle amounts to less than 2% of our nations needs. (not talking about nuclear energy here).

Plus the transition away from fossil fuel based products has yet to begun in any sort of tangible way.

We are staring straight into a future less than 10 years down the road, where massive energy problems are a reality.

Until we are forced to change nothing will happen in any earnest way.

No one has the guts to deal with the reality. As long as people believe that they can still motor a block away for a coke, no one will conserve.

Conservation and the willful transition to alt fuels has to be mandated by law, but such a law is slow in coming, and if recent legislation regarding climate change is any indicator of the future, it will also be greatly watered down.

With each day that passes we are that much closer to slamming into the wall.

[Javaman]

37. Spot on.

While I applaud peoples efforts to protest or make symbolic showings of unity, in the end, it really does nothing to stop our ever growing dependence on oil.

It's easy to reflect upon ones own use of various oil products and try to do the best to limit their use, however, it's another thing entirely to expand that view to the entire population of the US, then once again, to the world.

It's such a monumental undertaking to, not only get off of oil, but to replace it.

Many people think it's just a matter of not driving cars, but the reality, as you state in your response, is that we are so interdependent upon fossil fuel products that trying to completely separate the American public from it's use would be like losing a major organ.

This is why I have stated in the past, that until the US institutes a real policy regarding conservation and a phased switch over to alternative fuel and energy sources, anything we do will be symbolic at best and will little to no effect.

We are a nation of oil addicts. Whether we willingly chose oil or it was forced upon us, doesn't matter, what does matter is we jones daily for a fix, whether we are consciously aware of it or not.

[TreasonousBastard]

29. I expect nothing-- I would hope, however, that...

they understand the irony of using oil to get to a protest when they could be planning how to use less oil.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

33. don't underestimate people's intelligence about this...

we all are struggling with frustration, guilt, et al over everything that is happening. That said, I blame our government MORE for not delivering the alternative, safer energy source we need to power our cars, that we have been asking for and they have been half-assed promising for 40 years.

[Overseas]

6. And that's the sad state of mass transit in the USA.

Even people who try to do the right thing don't have quick & easy mass transit to the beach.

Wait for nearly an hour for a bus to the beach and a bus home from the beach, or hop in your car.

It is sad that even in US cities with fairly good public transit, weekend and evening service is very slow. Budget crunches-- can't afford to support public transit during people's time off.

But it serves the right wing nicely to sneer at any example of the green-inclined doing a less than perfect job because the right is mired in hypocrisy every single day.

[ellenfl]

7. i walked but i should have driven . . . i almost killed myself in the heat.

considering the age group at the event i went to, i hope most drove. the elderly don't do so well in a heat index of 100+.

ellen fl

[Javaman]

11. While there, did you help clean off the beach? nt

[ellenfl]

16. didn't need to. our beaches are clean . . . for now.

however, in answer to your question, had the beaches been dirty, no, i would not have cleaned them at high noon. what's your point?

ellen fl

[Javaman]

18. I'm just curious.

It would seem to me a colossal waste of resources for these people not to help out if they were able to help clean.

While I applaud their symbolism, I would think that, if they were in a position to help, they should pitch in.

[Javaman]

8. did any of them do anything to, you know, clean the sand? nt

[Hosnon]

9. We had one of those in my town as well.

It definitely seemed like an empty gesture.

[Javaman]

12. of the many hundreds (thousands?) that participated...

I wonder how many actually got down and help clean?

[Mojorabbit]

19. Their presence on the beaches,

the photos of them on the evening news, did more to push any congress people that might be willing to move a little esp soon before an election than complaining on a message board that they may have driven there or perhaps failed to clean up the beach. Photos of people arm and arm and hand and hand standing locked before their coastlines is a powerful visual. It was well worth it and I am glad it happened.

[Javaman]

21. Probably the best insightful answer so far.

Thanks! :)

[TreasonousBastard]

32. Pushing Congress to do what?

[ellenfl]

22. does this mean that if i protest the war that i have to

have fought in one first? how much skin in the game do you require?

you just sit in front of your computer and berate the rest of us for giving a little bit of a damn. meanwhile, i will do what i can to show my support for not allowing offshore drilling in florida AND for alternative energies.

btw, my 15yo car, purchased new, has 75,000 miles on the odometer. what does yours read?

ellen fl

[Javaman]

26. Apparently, you didn't see or read my reply.

I thought their responce was very good.

[ellenfl]

27. whose response? no, i was typing.

i take this response to mean you have owned gas hogs in the past. :eyes:

ellen fl

[Javaman]

35. Hmmm....

I guess you live in a stream of consciousness and are unable to check my other responces. (I know it's tough to do, considering it was right above your reply)

So to refresh...

Majorrabbit wrote:

"Their presence on the beaches,
the photos of them on the evening news, did more to push any congress people that might be willing to move a little esp soon before an election than complaining on a message board that they may have driven there or perhaps failed to clean up the beach. Photos of people arm and arm and hand and hand standing locked before their coastlines is a powerful visual. It was well worth it and I am glad it happened."

and I replied...

"Probably the best insightful answer so far."

[City of Mills]

15. My wind-powered skateboard is in the shop

Next time I won't bother.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. It's so much easier to sit at home and criticize the few who try to make a statement

than to put forth the effort to join them.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

38. the trouble is not all can join them on the terms set forth

...and in some cases they are not willing to, sometimes for justifiable reasons.

(Want to add: It is also easy for people to sit at their computer and criticize those who won't do things, or don't see things exactly their way)

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. I try not to criticize anyone who puts their body out in public for a cause

I even admire the tea baggers for that. I know first hand how hard it can be to take a stand these days and to do it in public. So everyone who participated in last weekend's events get nothing but praise from me, regardless of how they got to their event.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

42. You're a better person than I to admire the tea baggers ;)

but i totally agree with the rest of your statement.

(on edit - So sorry - I thought you were referring to the sub-topic here of criticising those who won't give up their cars, and drove to the protest. i'm a bit hyper over that issue this week :blush:)

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. I think they're insane

But I'm willing to give them props for putting their feet in the street and speaking out.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

47. I wonder if their protests have been victimized by Agent Provocateurs

seems like I only read of LEFT WING protests "turning violent"...