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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 05:07 PM
Original message
NYT: Teach for America...the Chosen Few?
Hat tip to Susan Ohanian for noting this article about Teach for America in the New York Times.

A Chosen Few Are Teaching for America

Ohanian Comment: This should be a YAHOO! Michael Winerip is back.

As you will see in this piece, no one notices details the way Michael Winerip does. He is the master of the telling detail that will carry the message of the story.

Yahoo!!
On Education, a new column by Michael Winerip, will appear Mondays. Mr. Winerip can be reached at oneducation@nytimes.com.


She quotes a couple of incidents mentioned that show how hard it is to become part of the group. The requirements seem really over the top in some ways since only a two year teaching stint is required.

Alneada Biggers, Harvard class of 2010, was amazed this past year when she discovered that getting into the nation's top law schools and grad programs could be easier than being accepted for a starting teaching job with Teach for America.

Ms. Biggers says that of 15 to 20 Harvard friends who applied to Teach for America, only three or four got in. "This wasn't last minute --a lot applied in August 2009, they'd been student leaders and volunteered," Ms. Biggers said. She says one of her closest friends wanted to do Teach for America, but was rejected and had to "settle" for University of Virginia Law School.

Will Cullen, Villanova '10, had a friend who was rejected and instead will be a Fulbright scholar.
Julianne Carlson, a new graduate of Yale -- where a record 18 percent of seniors applied to Teach for America --says she knows a half dozen "amazing" classmates who were rejected, although the number is probably higher. "People are reluctant to tell you because of the stigma of not getting in," Ms. Carlson said.


How in the world did such a group become so prestigious that there is a fear of telling anyone you are rejected. That should not be what teaching is about..it should not be a stepping stone for the TFA candidates.

But it seems to be just that. More from Michael Winerip at the NYT.

A Chosen Few Are Teaching for America


Scott Dalton for The New York Times
Julianne Carlson, a graduate of Yale, taught a prekindergarten class in Spanish last week at an elementary school in Houston.


Good, well-trained, experienced teachers are teaching all over the country. Trying to figure why what Ms Carlson does is any different that what those teachers do every single day....those career teachers who soon may lose their jobs while more TFA teachers are hired at a big cost to the taxpayers for recruitment.

Mr. Goldberg, Mr. Rosen, Ms. Carlson, Mr. Cullen and Ms. Biggers count themselves lucky to be among the 4,500 selected by the nonprofit to work at high-poverty public schools from a record 46,359 applicants (up 32 percent over 2009). There’s little doubt the numbers are fueled by a bad economy, which has limited job options even for graduates from top campuses. In 2007, during the economic boom, 18,172 people applied.

This year, on its 20th anniversary, Teach for America hired more seniors than any other employer at numerous colleges, including Yale, Dartmouth, Duke, Georgetown and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. At Harvard, 293 seniors, or 18 percent of the class, applied, compared with 100 seniors in 2007. “So many job options in finance, P.R. and consulting have been cut back,” said Ms. Carlson, the Yale grad.


I wonder if they are aware that while their "prestigious" butts are being hired that hundreds of thousands of experienced teachers will be laid off next year?

Getting a job on the back of other teachers is nothing to brag about.

They are an "elite brand"? Really. Dang, I was pretty doggone good teacher, so were my teaching friends....and we never ever thought of ourselves as "elite" or "special" or anything like that.

But there are other more material attractions. Teach for America has become an elite brand that will help build a résumé, whether or not the person stays in teaching. And in a bad economy, it’s a two-year job guarantee with a good paycheck; members earn a beginning teacher’s salary in the districts where they’re placed. For Mr. Cullen, who will teach at a Dallas middle school, that’s $45,000 — the same he’d make if he’d taken a job offer from a financial public relations firm. Ms. Carlson, who will also make $45,000 teaching first grade in San Antonio, said: “I feel very fortunate. I knew a lot of people at Yale who didn’t have a job or plan when they graduated.”


Yeh, well, those hundreds of thousands of teachers won't need a resume next year....their jobs won't be there.

The blogger called Stick with a Nose has something to say about all the "eliteness."

While all of the interviewees noted an interest in “giving back” to the community, it is clear that TFA is a means to an end for the majority of its participants, and this has real impacts on the public and charter schools in which they work. Research demonstrates that TFA participants under-perform traditionally trained teachers until they gain several years of real-world experience and complete the necessary course-work to earn teaching credentials. However, the problem with this is that the research literature also tells us that the vast majority of TFA participants do not stay in the profession long enough to reach that point. For TFA participants, the program is an exercise in resume building.

The reality of TFA is that it places under-prepared “teachers” in the toughest, neediest schools who rotate out before they can develop their skills. How advocates for this program can claim that TFA is a model for meeting the growing demand for qualified teachers to close achievement gaps boggles the mind.


Teach for America is a private company which gets paid thousands to recruit teachers for public schools. These are schools that traditionally recruited for free and hired their own teachers.

Many of us feel it is a back door way to get rid of experienced teachers who have worked for years to get good salaries, and replace them with people who want to build resumes.

Teach for America. A way to replace experienced, higher-salaried teachers?

Those who are thinking of participating in Teach for America with a social justice mission in mind should consider this. Although a far more daunting task for sure, those really interested in social justice should consider ways of solving problems like unavoidable unemployment and low-wage jobs.

On top of failing to make a dent in poverty, Teach for America actually detracts from social justice by hurting real teachers. Teach for America students take low, entrance-level pay while also receiving a government subsidy for their salary in the form of Americorps stipends. Schools lay off teachers and then hire Teach for America teachers to fill positions that real teachers would otherwise be filling. Teach for America teachers are undercutting the wage needs of real teachers and causing them to be laid off as a result.

Imagine this: a well-off college student takes a subsidized teaching position at an impossibly low wage and displaces actual teachers who might already be struggling to get by — all for social justice! For anyone who has any concern for labor rights, this is extremely abusive. Not undercutting wage demands of often unionized workers is rule number one of how to be a serious social justice advocate.


Wendy Kopp, the founder of TFA, is married to Richard Barth, the founder of KIPP charter schools. They are the couple referred to as the "young social entrepreneurs." And they are reshaping the education system in the United States.

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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. can you say "union busting"? nt
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yep.
:grr:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It is just that.
Not having to pay the salaries of experienced teachers anymore.

And paying thousands to recruit a teacher makes profit for TFA and other such groups.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. That TFA candidates are considered "elite" in anything is simply laughable.
I've met some TFA teachers, and to the last one they simply didn't know the basics of teaching, either in the practical or theoretical realm. More than one had no clue about Bloom's Taxonomy, Gardener's Multiple Intelligences, or other such basics.

TFA was developed to bust unions, keep teacher's wages low, and deliver a poor product. It is simply being dressed up in this cloak of being somehow "elite" in order to more easily sell it.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. Sure it busts unions and all that,
but it is a corporation. It's purpose is to make money. They don't care that children lose out, that hard working teachers go to work at Home Depot. They are there for the money. If it called for sacrifice or a moral center, TFA would be abandoned in a week.

Any time you see the words "Education" and "Entrepreneur" in the same sentence, you have to think of Gordon Gecko and know that the kids will lose out to greed every time.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't make $45,000
and I have 8 years in and a masters degree.

Here's another thread about TFA:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x26681

Highlights:

"While the small number who stay this long are sometimes found to be more effective in mathematics than other teachers, their attrition rate of more than 80 percent means that few students receive the benefit of this greater effectiveness, while districts pay the costs of high attrition. In addition, TFA provides only a (small) fraction of America’s teachers to a small number of America’s schools, and likely has little to no impact outside of its participating schools. Unless it starts admitting larger swaths of college seniors and potentially watering down the quality of its corps members, it will not ever comprise more than a small fraction of America’s teachers.

It recommends that policymakers and school districts:

*Support Teach for America staffing only when the alternative hiring pool consists of uncertified and emergency teachers or substitutes.

*Consider the significant recurring costs of Teach for America, estimated at over $70,000 per recruit, and press for a five-year commitment to improve achievement and reduce re-staffing.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. And why are all these cities paying thousands to TFA...
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I'm smart. I know my content.
I can't be molded and programmed. I speak up for my students.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Ah, that might be why. Easier to get them to do as they are told.
Public school teachers are getting feisty along now since they learned that this administration is finishing Bush's agenda. Even the Republican teachers in this area (we really don't have any other kind here) are shocked at the quick way things are happening.

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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I know. I'm so threatening.
and scary even.
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erodriguez Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. It is definitely happening in NYC
Even though there has been a two-year hiring freeze, NYC hires TFA teachers.

There are tons of unemployed teachers like me looking to get jobs.

In my situation, the cruel joke is that my teaching experience is regarded as a disadvantage. In my last interview, the principal asked me how much I would make.
My $60k salary would pay for almost 1.5 new teachers. He basically said budgets were tight and that was that.

High salaried experienced teachers are the enemy of school budgets. TFA provides a cheap alternative.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. It is cruel. Making experience a disadvantage. It is cruelty...
and a Democratic president is doing it.

Breaks my heart that people are so accepting of this privatization.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
37. Why are they using TSA?
Two words. Kick backs!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. Don't forget...Congress is thinking about giving them 50 million.
http://greatschoolsforamerica.org/wordpress/?p=165

There is a list of the Democrats who would vote to pay this company 50 million to recruit teachers while hundreds of thousands will be laid off.

This is not believable to me.

"Teach for America wants your money, and if you don’t let your Senators and Representatives know of your opposition, they are going to get it, lots of it. According to reports, the support has grown to over 100 members of Congress. Below is an acquired partial list. Please contact your Senators and Representatives. Tell them to instead appropriate money to your ailing local schools. Money given to Teach for America is money wasted. Money given to Teach for America takes from the poorest and gives to the rich.

The vote may take place as soon as this week.

House of Representatives * Rep. Robert Andrews (D-NJ) * Rep. Tammy Baldwin (D-WI) * Rep. Shelley Berkley (D-NV) * Rep. Leonard Boswell (D-IA) * Rep. Corrine Brown (D-FL) * Rep. G.K. Butterfield (D-NC) * Rep. Anh “Joseph” Cao (R-LA) * Rep. Michael Capuano (D-MA) * Rep. Russ Carnahan (D-MO) * Rep. André Carson (D-IN) * Rep. Yvette Clarke (D-NY) * Rep. Wm. Lacy Clay (D-MO) * Rep. Stephen Cohen (D-TN) * Rep. John Conyers (D-MI) * Rep. Joseph Courtney (D-CT) * Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-MD) * Rep. Artur Davis (D-AL) * Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO) * Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-CT) * Rep. Donna Edwards (D-MD) * Rep. Keith Ellison (D-MN) * Rep. Eliot Engel (D-NY) * Rep. Bob Etheridge (D-NC) * Rep. Chaka Fattah (D-PA) * Rep. Bob Filner (D-CA) * Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) * Rep. Charles Gonzalez (D-TX) * Rep. Gene Green (D-TX) * Rep. Raúl Grijalva (D-AZ) * Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-IL) * Rep. Jim Himes (D-CT) * Rep. Rubén Hinojosa (D-TX) * Rep. Mazie Hirono (D-HI) * Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ) * Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson (D-TX) * Rep. Henry Johnson (D-GA) * Rep. Ann Kirkpatrick (D-AZ) * Rep. Larry Kissell (D-NC) * Rep. Jim Langevin (D-RI) * Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA) * Rep. Stephen Lynch (D-MA) * Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) * Rep. Edward Markey (D-MA) * Rep. Jim Marshall (D-GA) * Rep. Doris Matsui (D-CA) * Rep. Gregory Meeks (D-NY) * Rep. Charlie Melancon (D-LA) * Rep. Gwen Moore (D-WI) * Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) * Rep. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-DC) * Rep. Solomon Ortiz (D-TX) * Rep. Frank Pallone Jr. (D-NJ) * Rep. Bill Pascrell (D-NJ) * Rep. Donald Payne (D-NJ) * Rep. David Price (D-NC) * Rep. Charles Rangel (D-NY) * Rep. Laura Richardson (D-CA) * Rep. Mike Ross (D-MS) * Rep. Bobby Rush (D-IL) * Rep. Gregorio Sablan (D-MP) * Rep. John Sarbanes (D-MD) * Rep. Janice Schakowsky (D-IL) * Rep. David Scott (D-GA) * Rep. Bobby Scott (D-VA) * Rep. Joe Sestak (D-PA) * Rep. Albio Sires (D-NJ) * Rep. Louise Slaughter (D-NY) * Rep. Bennie Thompson (D-MS) * Rep. Edolphus Towns (D-NY) * Rep. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD) * Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA) * Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-NY)

Senate

* Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-TN) * Sen. Michael Bennet (D-CO) * Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D-NM) * Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA) * Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-OH) * Sen. Roland Burris (D-IL) * Sen. Ben Cardin (D-MD) * Sen. Robert Casey (D-PA) * Sen. Chris Dodd (D-CT) * Sen. Richard Durbin (D-IL) * Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY) * Sen. Kay Hagan (D-NC) * Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX) * Sen. Tim Johnson (D-SD) * Sen. Herb Kohl (D-WI) * Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-LA) * Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) * Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT) * Sen. Blanche Lincoln (D-AR) * Sen. Robert Menendez (D-NJ) * Sen. Barbara Mikulski (D-MD) * Sen. Bill Nelson (D-FL) * Sen. Jack Reed (D-RI) * Sen. Harry Reid, Majority Leader (D-NV) * Sen. Charles Schumer (D-NY) * Sen. Debbie Stabenow (D-MI) * Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) * Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR)

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. More:
"Wendy Kopp, credited with founding Teach for America, brags about waltzing up to donors, time and time again, asking for a million dollars a pop and getting it. In what fantasy land does that occur? Her adoption by Bill Gates, Eli Broad, and the NewSchools Venture Fund has assured TFA’s success. Now it appears that Kopp and her billionaire sugar-daddies are doing the same dance in Congress, only a million dollars this time is chump change. It’s fifty million dollars of your tax money they want so they can supply poor kids with sub-standard teachers at a premium price. Read about their failed dealings with Sacramento."

Here is the link to the New Schools Venture Fund and their investors.

http://newschools.org/about/people/investors

Money talks.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. How about the thousands of newly certified teachers who can't find teaching jobs?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. How about the hundreds of thousands....
of already working teachers that will lose their jobs. My first concern is for them. It is not going to help our economy when so many teachers fear for their jobs.

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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. Of course we don't want currently employed teachers to lose their jobs,
but we don't need T for A to recruit new ones when there are so many new teachers of all ages looking for teaching positions. Many of us are working for school districts in other capacities just hoping for vacancies that seem fewer with each passing year.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. excellent find!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Surprised to see it in the NYT
But even then the article was not overtly critical, just presented facts.

I did notice the exchange at the end of the article between the teacher and the student. She put herself in a position in which he could argue back. There are other better ways.

"She'd also created a fun math game, giving every student an index card with a number. They were supposed to silently line themselves up from lowest negative to highest positive, but one boy kept disrupting the class, blurting out, twirling his pen, complaining he wanted to play a fun game, not a math game.

"Why is there talking?"Ms. Nguyen said. "There should be no talking."

"Do I have to play?" asked the boy.

"Do you want to pass summer school?" Ms. Nguyen answered.

The boy asked if it was O.K. to push people to get them in the right order.

"This is your third warning," Ms. Nguyen said. "Do not speak out in my class."
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RadicalTexan Donating Member (607 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
15. And the Boomers wonder why we X and Ys don't just "pay our dues"
Pfffft.

WHERE? There are no jobs. And we all have student debt into the tens of thousands of dollars, at age 21.

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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. We Boomers wonder why WE get blamed for so much. Where is your Generation marching against this?
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RadicalTexan Donating Member (607 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. Since when did "marching" against anything do any good?
What exactly are we supposed to "march" against here? The economy? Demographics? High school guidance counselors?
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
17. TFA used to advertise like crazy in the free weekly papers here in the Bay Area.
The stipends they offered were so absurdly low, I thought it was a scam. So strange to see them in this powerful position.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
18. scabs
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
19. $45,000 a year?!
Our TFAers don't earn anywhere near that. That's insane for a teacher without an education degree.
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
20. Kick for truth.
TFA would always recruit on my campus as well, pretending to be part of some "noble mission."
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Sciguy Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 05:48 AM
Response to Original message
21. I think the first thing they should teach us in teaching school...
...is that we're going to get screwed over eventually no matter what we do. It doesn't matter if we're undergrads in teaching, Masters or PhDs in Education, MATs (Masters in Teaching), just fell into it and aren't certified, whatever. We're going to teach, then we're going to get dumped on.

Disclaimer: I'm now an Adult Education teacher, and I'm no longer being dumped on. :-)
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
22. it seems these teachers cost more than a first-year teacher entering from the standard
track -- yet they're less trained & committed.

so what's the premium for? because they came from the ivy league?
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Yes. "Branding" and bragging rights for the schools they work at.
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erodriguez Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. They won't cost as much in the long run
Since they leave they wont be getting the higher salaries or drawing off pensions when they retire.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Exactly. No high paid teachers, no pensions to pay. Win win for the corporate world.
Exactly.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
26. St. Louis schools as an example gives $2000 to TFA for each teacher they hire.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/6032

The referenced article called Looking Past the Spin is subscription only.

"From Rethinking Schools this paragraph about what is happening in St. Louis schools right now. Think about this. The district is paying $2000 to Teach for America for every new trainee they send to the district. They are sending that much money to a non-profit group whose trainees get government subsidies.

Peter Downs, president of the elected school board, summarizes TFA’s role in one word: “privatization.” He says that the mayor, not the district, first invited TFA to St. Louis, in line with reforms such as for-profit charters and the privatization of services in curriculum development, teacher recruitment, maintenance, and food service. As part of its contract with TFA, the district pays $2,000 a year to TFA for each of its recruits. (The elected board has no power because the state took over the St. Louis schools; the mayoral appointee to the new three-person board is a former regional staff person for Teach for America.)"



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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. They not only take under-qualified teachers, they PAY to do so.
Unbelievable.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. It is truly scary this is being done and approved by Democrats.
It angers me so much.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Yes.
What is happening to public education is indefensible and the fact that Democrats are eager participants angers me to the point of no return.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
27. Sounds just like the kind of snobby elitism
that our president seems to like. All the insider stuff. All the ivy league stuff. All the special, special stuff.

If these kids really wanted to teach, why don't they spend a few years learning how and then become teachers. Oh. That's right. They wouldn't be able to get jobs because the special, special teachers that cost more and have less experience and won't be on the job but a year or two will be mandated by the government to get those jobs.

And we thought buhsie was high prep school.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
38. Just a question
Does that TFA stint qualify them for student loan forgiveness under the federal guidelines? Such jobs, even without pay are hard to get into.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
39. K&R n/t
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