What, we're not allowed to produce our own food now without getting raided?

[Subdivisions]

http://www.grist.org/article/food-five-tips-for-surviving-a-raid-on-your-farm-or-food-club/#comments

When the 20 agents arrived bearing a search warrant at her Ventura County farmhouse door at 7 a.m. on a Wednesday a couple weeks back, Sharon Palmer didn't know what to say. This was the third time she was being raided in 18 months, and she had thought she was on her way to resolving the problem over labeling of her goat cheese that prompted the other two raids. (In addition to producing goat's milk, she raises cattle, pigs, and chickens, and makes the meat available via a CSA.)

But her 12-year-old daughter, Jasmine, wasn't the least bit tongue-tied. "She started back-talking to them," recalls Palmer. "She said, 'If you take my computer again, I can't do my homework.' This would be the third computer we will have lost. I still haven't gotten the computers back that they took in the previous two raids."

As part of a five-hour-plus search of her barn and home, the agents -- from the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office, Los Angeles County Sheriff, Ventura County Sheriff, and the California Department of Food and Agriculture -- took the replacement computer, along with milk she feeds her chickens and pigs.

While no one will say officially what the purpose of this latest raid was, aside from being part of an investigation in progress, what is very clear is that government raids of producers, distributors, and even consumers of nutritionally dense foods appear to be happening ever more frequently. Sometimes they are meant to counter raw dairy production, other times to challenge private food organizations over whether they should be licensed as food retailers.

...

http://www.grist.org/article/food-five-tips-for-surviving-a-raid-on-your-farm-or-food-club/#comments

Whatever did we do before the era of Big Ag?

[villager]

1. This displeases our corporate overlords. Expect the "Democrats" to remain dutifully silent.

n/t

[Kievan Rus]

48. And the media, too. Expect more nonsense on Mel Gibson and Lindsay Lohan

[burnsei sensei]

125. Talking about fucking feudalism/manorialism. nt

[Mimosa]

2. This is wrong, especially during this Depression

I think the gov is trying to protect groceries like Whole Foods and their suppliers.

[awoke_in_2003]

148. government of the people, indeed...

this place is going straight to 3rd world status.

[boppers]

3. Misleading headline. This wasn't "own food", this was food sold to consumers.

Are you against public food regulations?

Should people be allowed to sell whatever they want, with no standards, laws, and regulations controlling for public health and safety? I'm pretty sure that's the GOP's stance.

[conscious evolution]

4. Personally,I'm all for food safety

Problem is,our goverment has become so corrupted that I,and many others,no longer trust it actually protect us.
Time after time,virtually every goverment agency or department has put the interests of corporations and their profits over the interests of the people.
Given the choice of buying from a farmer I know or buying food from a large corporation with little or no true oversight I will go with the small farmer.

[RKP5637]

25. AGREE!!! n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

71. I am sure you would have nothing to worry about buying from her. nt

[SnakeEyes]

98. So what's the solution?

I'm sitting here trying to think of what can be done. The corruptibility of man is the problem.

We wouldn't want to roll things because then we couldn't control/check on business, when the government actually does it's job. So we either accept the government regulation, at the expense of some freedom, or to remove the government control. In the interest of safety of consumers of small and large providers and (at least some at times) oversight of business, I'll take the former.

[conscious evolution]

116. I wish I knew

The best solution would be a complete and total purging of any and all goverment employees hired during puke adminstrations.Also purge those who have management ties to the industry they are regulating.
Of course,this a harsharsh measure,no doubt,that would set off a political firestorm of biblical proportions and would most likely not be possible.

You know what?More and more I can understand why Stalin and Mao did some of the things they did.Scary thought,eh?

[Cal Carpenter]

121. The 'corruptibility of man' is not the problem

Rather a system that *rewards* corruption and greed is the problem. That is at the heart of our economic system, and backed up by the actions of our government.

[SnakeEyes]

150. Any system will have similar problems

because man is corruptible. It's just the persons responsible that can change. With laissez-faire it is the capitalist, with a government regulated capitalist system is both the capitalist and members of the government, in a communist system it is the government officials in charge. The problem is ultimately man.

[Hugabear]

166. The ideal solution would be to know your local farmer/producer

Local farmers would seem to have to be much more accountable to the people in their local areas.

[gtar100]

110. Exactly. They keep trying to make our 'Government' the bad guy

but the truth is, it wasn't so god-awful bad until corporations / big money interests took over the FDA, EPA, et al. They are forcing us to look elsewhere to sources we *can* trust. And first and foremost, that would be people in our own communities who know us and we know them. The tactics employed on this family appear to be government agents working on behalf of big ag. Looks and smells like pure, unashamed fascism to me.

[burnsei sensei]

126. If the government is bought

by corporate pigs, what makes you think that this is about food safety?
What makes you think that a corporate provider has your protection in mind?
They're not regulating these people.
They are raiding them.
I'll bet they never raid the slaughterhouse at Hormel!

[HughMoran]

146. That's insane

:crazy:

Is this anarchist underground?

[treestar]

154. Spoken like a libertarian

That's exactly how they want things. No government regulation, so you can only deal with people you know and trust (and if you make a bad decision you deal with the consequences).

[Subdivisions]

5. Right up until all those regulations were enacted, humans either hunted

or produced their own food, yet here we are. Now none of that is allowed without some sort of approval.

[LanternWaste]

30. Ever read Sinclair's The Jungle...?

"Right up until all those regulations were enacted..."

Ever read Sinclair's The Jungle...? Not so much on the above statement. Not so much indeed.

[girl gone mad]

57. Humans were still hunting and producing their own food..

even while Sinclair was investigating the abuses occurring in large factories in industrial centers.

We've only recently become dependent on big ag.

[SnakeEyes]

97. .

edit: snarky post not needed. sorry.

[sabrina 1]

6. It didn't take long for someone to come along and defend this

egregious authoritarian behavior on the part of government officials.

You ask if people should be allowed to sell whatever they want? Apparently they are allowed to do so. They are allowed to poison our food and refuse to label it so that we at least know what we are eating.

I buy food from farms whenever I have a choice, and I don't want the government stopping me from doing so.

Thanks for helping to give up even more of our rights. But I would appreciate being able to make my own decisions, since our government's decisions on what food is 'safe' to eat doesn't inspire much confidence.

They should be allowed to sell whatever their customers want in a case like this. Farmers have been doing it since time began.

Just another frightening look at how Orwellian this society has become.

[Subdivisions]

7. Some people simply can't live without supervision and a loving and caring government

to keep them safe from terrorists and raw milk (and the vile criminals that produce raw milk for the family and friends).

[sabrina 1]

10. 'Land of the Brave' ~

All the government has to do here is to say 'Boo' and Americans scramble for cover. Watching posts here excusing every single action taken, no matter how wrong, by this government, really makes me wonder. Are Americans really that dependent and weak?

[Warren DeMontague]

16. So "brave" to you, means "being able to sell unpasteurized milk products without LABELING them as

unpasteurized"?

Yes, we must fight the unending tyranny of full disclosure in food labeling.




:eyes:

[sabrina 1]

22. We have labeling of food in this country? Really?

I thought Dan Quayle made it okay for Corps to refuse to label food ~ silly me and all this time I could have saved time, calling all those congressmembers asking them to change that law.

[Warren DeMontague]

54. Yes, we do.

And this hyperbole about "we're not allowed to produce our own food ZOMG ZOMG!!!111!!!" is just fucking ridiculous. I try to hit farmers markets, chock full of locally grown, organic produce, at least a couple times a week in the summertime. There are plenty of choices, at least in states like Oregon and California (where the "story" in the OP takes place) for organic, free range, non-processed, raw food, etc etc etc. If there's a gimungo spooky corpro-conspiracy to take away peoples' right to eat healthy food, it's sure as fuck not working.

So, what you have here, is someone who didn't label her unpasteurized goat cheese- a potentially hazardous situation- and now she's dealing with food safety regs.

Hardly a cause for flappy-armed freaking out, IMHO. And like I said, if there's an actual story here, the least the OP could give us is a legitimate, working link.

[sabrina 1]

78. We are allowed, for now. What is causing concern is not just the

case posted in the OP. Raids on farms who sell food have been increasing, different reasons are being given. Here is a working link to the full story:

Five tips for surviving a raid on your farm

The main difference in the two raids seems to be that Palmer's raiding party was actually much smaller, about half the size of the Venice contingent: Vonderplanitz was also visited by the FBI and the FDA.

In the Rawesome raid, agents made off with several thousand dollars worth of raw honey and raw dairy products. They also shut Rawesome for failure to have a public health permit, though the size and scope of the raid suggests the government officials might have more in mind. Regardless, within hours the outlet reopened in defiance of the shutdown order.

Earlier in June, agents of the Minnesota Department of Agriculture, escorted by police and also bearing search warrants, raided and shut down Traditional Foods Warehouse, a popular food club in Minneapolis specializing in locally-produced foods. They also raided two farms suspected of illegally selling raw milk. And in a national first among such raids, agents searched a private home and made off with computers; the family's offense appears to have been that it allowed one of the raw dairy farmers to park in its driveway to distribute raw milk to area residents who had ordered it.

The Minnesota Department of Agriculture has declined comment on such raids, saying they are part of an ongoing investigation into raw milk distribution in the state in lieu of eight illnesses in May linked to raw milk.

Meanwhile, the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture, Trade, and Consumer Protection has launched three raids over the last three months on the dairy farm and farm store of Vernon Hershberger, near Madison. The day after DATCP agents placed seals on his fridges storing raw dairy products in July, Hershberger cut the seals, and announced he was going to challenge the agency's contention he needs a dairy and retail license to sell his products. Obtaining such licenses would be problematic, though, since Wisconsin prohibits sale of raw milk, except "incidental" sales, and defining "incidental" has been a bone of contention for many years. In any event, Hershberger contends he sells only to consumers who contract privately for his food.

What's behind all these raids? They seem to stem from increasing concern at both the state and federal level about the spread of private food groups that have sprung up around the country in recent years -- food clubs and buying groups to provide specialized local products that are generally unavailable in groceries, like grass-fed meats, pastured eggs, fermented foods, and, in some cases, raw dairy products. Because they are private and limited to consumers who sign up for membership, these groups generally avoid obtaining retail and public health licenses required of retailers that sell to the general public.

Armed raids on farms, the FBI involved, and no real explanation from authorities. Why wait until it comes to your farm? The Ventura Farm is close to where I am, there are many farms in that area of Ventura. The owner of the farm was working on getting the labeling done. Is it necessary to scare children by sending 20 agents into someone's home? And why are they taking computers, raiding refrigerators etc.?

I find it very scary to be honest. If you read the last paragraph you can see that they may be a threat to the big commercial meat producers, the chicken farms and pig farms where many believe Swine Flu originated. Which is why they changed the name of the desease. Robert Kennedy Jr. has been after those commercial farms for years because of the danger they present in the areas in which they operate and in the food they produce.

[Warren DeMontague]

94. It's about unpasteurized milk, pure and simple.

To frame this as a "war" against small farmers, organic produce, grass-fed beef or anything of the sort is just plain fucking ridiculous.

We have health permits and food safety regulations for a reason. They existed well before Monsanto built their chicken-powered Death Star or whatever.

[demigoddess]

104. why did they take the raw honey? as far as I know it is harmless

unpasteurized is also harmless and is sold. you just have to prove the cows do not have tuberculosis. that was the original reason for pasteurization

[Warren DeMontague]

107. I suspect b/c raw honey has been implicated in botulism in infants and small kids, that's my guess.

:shrug:

[Aaria]

129. Honey is anticeptic, no one ever got sick from honey. The cops

are just taking everything to be annoying and anything that they can to prevent them from making money.

[boppers]

156. A google for you:

http://www.google.com/search?q=honey+infant

[sabrina 1]

106. No it's not. You obviously didn't read the article. They have taken

other products, like raw honey eg. And as the raids increase, the explanations have changed, now they are claiming licensing and labeling issues eg. Raw Milk is the excuse. People have had to file under the FOIA to find out exactly why this is going on and why it is spreading across the country. If it's as simple as you say, then why not explain it?

Farms like these have operated for decades. It would be simple to just stop the sale of raw milk if that was the problem. Sending storm troopers to hold women and children at gun point for hours, to deal with what would be a simple issue, forbidding the sale of a product, is a little overkill unless there is something else going on.

[Warren DeMontague]

108. Then why are there tons of small, organic farms, food co-ops, CSAs etc

that are not suffering the terrible boot of corporo-fascist oppression?

I'll tell you why. Because they're not selling raw milk without properly labeling it or otherwise violating health and safety regulations.

Raw honey? Really, you have to ask?

I did read the article. And tomorrow I'll be at a farmer's market with tons of readily available organic, healthy produce from local, small farms. Sorry, not convinced.

[Mojorabbit]

130. I am a beekeeper

and raw honey is perfectly safe. I cannot for the life of me figure out why they would impound it.

[blueamy66]

115. I grew up on a friend's dairy.

Drank the stuff on a daily basis.

not a problem

[MrsMatt]

127. Your exposure to that evironment helped

keep you from getting sick from any "bugs" that were contained in the milk. I grew up on a dairy farm and drank raw milk too.

However, I would NEVER consume raw milk now, because I no longer live in the same evironment that the milk is being produced. I no longer have faith in my immunity to such organisms that are contained in raw milk.

E-Coli 0157 is very dangerous, even deadly, especially to the young, the elderly, and immune-compromised.

[demigoddess]

160. i went from the city and was babysat on a farm when I was y

drank raw milk straight from the cow and churned butter myself for the table. I have NEVER had the flu. Healthy as a horse most of my life. I'm sixty--- years old.

[HughMoran]

144. I feel like I'm on a right-wing/anarchist website

Did I get lost on my way to DU?

[treestar]

155. Exactly, suddenly government regulation is a terrible thing!

Weird. :wtf:

[RKP5637]

39. "Are Americans really that dependent and weak?" IMO yes! n/t

[truedelphi]

11. I find all these actions tremendously frightening.

Of course, Mike Taylor, who now heads the FDA, also was one of the biggest legislating benefactors that Monsanto ever had. he came aboard during Clinton's term, and helped the GM industry slide by being regulated through the "similar and equivalent" made up, phoney- baloney doctrine that simply decided on its own, that GM is the same as conventional.

Of course, now we know that is a crock - as the indie scientists at University of Caen in France are seeing many indications that the GM crops just do not deliver the right amount of nutrients to those consuming that food.

Now in its defene, the FDA says they are not out to destroy the family and smaller farms - but are simply looking to avoid having people come down with food poisoning.

But the biggest reason for food poisoning is that many in our population still do not get the connection between how you store food and coming down with food poisoning.

I used to have neighbors who kept their store bought chicken directly above their salad greens. Every summer, after throwing a huge barbecue, they and their relatives would be sick for a week.

But they looked at me like I was talking nonsense when I tried to explain their problem didn't come from not cooking the chicken enough - but from having the salmonella all over the lettuce.

[caboose]

50. So.......is Monsanto responsible for people letting chicken juice drip onto their salad?

I'm not defending Monsanto but it seems the outrage is a little misdirected here...
:shrug:

[truedelphi]

58. I think you misread me.

My anger inside this discussion is at agencies like the FDA who are all about
"Consumer safety."

But they don't in the least protect us against the egregious harm being done to the food supply of the world, by the agencies making up "doctrines" like the "equivalent" doctrine. All Monsanto has to do is to "run out the clock" and crop by crop continue to get its pollen disseminated due to wind and what not, and they win. Look up Percy Schmeiser if you want to know what I mean.

And now the FDA says their reason for going after the small farmers is in order to ensure that people don't get sick. But again, most food poisoning comes about due to improper storage and handling of food, not because somewhere in Virginia a crow is flying over a plot of strawberries.

In any case, welcome to DU. May your ride on the Choo Choo of discussion and community be a fun and interesting one.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. I don't know. I see a lot of authoritarian BS on threads about KFC or cheesecake filled pancakes.

Someone starts a thread about a porn star, and you'll get plenty of nanny ninnies who are more than happy to tell consenting adults they shouldn't be free to look at pictures of other consenting adults fucking.

Since the link on the OP doesn't seem to work, it's hard to get a handle on this story, but it looks like it was misleadingly presented. I have a garden, I'm not in terror that Big Brother is going to come and take away my tomoatoes because they aren't Monsanto approved. What I suspect this story is about, is someone selling unpastuerized goat milk. Or, more likely, selling it WITHOUT labeling it as such.

Which is NOT the same thing as "we're not allowed to grow our own food!!11111!!!!! ZOMG!!!1111!!!"


Maybe if we can get a real link to the actual story, it can be sorted out. :shrug:

[Q3JR4]

28. I agree.

People have a right to KNOW what they're buying. It's what I would expect from the largest corporate owned farming machine to the smallest individual farmer.

Since I haven't heard of this happening in my neck of the U.S. I don't think we're getting the full story and the news source is attempting to (successfully) stoke the fires of outrage.

Come back to me when you have more information, until then I'm going to go find something more important to concentrate my time and energy on.

Q3JR4.

[RKP5637]

27. Exactly, we are an Orwellian society and the full cycle as it's now staunchly defended by the

oppressed. The best of all traps. And the lambs and robots running around today like scared little rabbits. The ultimate robotic programming. Go Consumerism! Go Consumerism! And appease the corporate masters!

[LanternWaste]

31. Was Upton Sinclair the Lamb, or the Robot?

Was Upton Sinclair the Lamb, or the Robot?

[RKP5637]

35. IMO neither. n/t

[SnakeEyes]

99. Orwellian society? Consumerism? Oppressed?

This is because of the work of some of us, of some of those that represent us. We wanted better food regulation, better labeling, and requirements for food that is sold. It's only Orwellian to you now because now the regulation is being applied to all.. as it should.

Part of having a better, fairer to all, safer society is that government regulation and control must exist. When it affects what you support you may not like it but that's too bad. It's for the betterment of society. We all have to sacrifice.

[RKP5637]

114. Good points, NOW, if that were true for the financial sectors too... n/t

[boppers]

33. Interesting that you mention proper labeling...

Since the article clearly indicates that the farm raided had already gotten in trouble for not doing it.

[HughMoran]

147. Anarchists & right-wingers don't trust/are anti-government, Democrats aren't

FYI

[druidity33]

9. of course not, don't be a fool

here's my (somewhat extended) reply in the other thread about this article:


Give me a break. Here's the wiki link for "raw milk":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk
As you can see, MANY other nations see no problem with allowing the sale of unpasteurized products.


As for washing eggs, the point of that is that an egg should be washed just before consumption, but not until then. By washing an egg, you rinse off the bloom that seals the pores and keeps OUT bacteria. Commercial producers use a chlorine bleach soak to eliminate this "problem"... but it's arguably less effective than the eggs natural bloom. Not to mention how the egg industry will re-sell and redate expired eggs if they still register an acceptable "candleweight". The thing is though, if you keep nest boxes clean and lined with fresh litter, collect often, and refrigerate promptly, the egg isn't "covered in shit" like it would be coming from a commercial "egg farm". Local, "farm fresh" eggs are cleaner than store bought. It's also a direct to farmer profit from a product that can be sold year round. Why would the government want to restrict that? Why not just create a disclaimer poster and make the farmer display it?


Why would you want to deny me the right to choose for myself how i want my food? Why is it the government will allow the sale of addictive and destructive agents such as alcohol and tobacco to adults, but not allow them to choose a product that is, at its worst, inconclusively different from its sanitized counterpart? I don't think this is really all about "public safety".

:shrug:

[Subdivisions]

14. What other thread? I did a search and didn't find it... n/t

[druidity33]

23. this one...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8760496

[ohheckyeah]

12. Yes, I'm against the government

trying to prevent local growers from selling to local buyers. I buy my eggs locally and that's my choice. I know that they aren't USDA inspected and I don't care.

[SnakeEyes]

100. They aren't trying to prevent that.

For the safety of others there has to be food standards and regulations.

[MajorChode]

29. Logic and reason won't score you any points on DU

Only arguments based on emotion count for anything.

Not only was the OP's title misleading, the article referenced was clearly one sided with no attempt whatsoever to publish relevant facts so the reader could make up their own mind.

The California Dept of Agriculture actually is heavily biased for the multi-billion dollar so-called 'organic' food industry in California (which is almost exclusively owned by what many here would call 'big-agra'). So it is entirely possible that they have nefarious motives here, but there simply isn't enough information provided to make that determination and I'm not really sure how further misrepresenting what is already one sided information helps much.

Interestingly enough, you can find the exact same article in freeperland with the expected result.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Recursion]

131. The incorporation of organic into big-agri is a real problem

And a lot of us foodies kind of are turned off by "certified organic" stuff at this point because the regulations have been hijacked, once again, by big companies.

So, for example, the meat I get in my CSA is not certified organic because it's nearly impossible for a small rancher to get that, and what's more it's nearly impossible to do it for beef without a feedlot grain-finishing stage (I like plain old grass-fed). I hear occasional snark about the "Whole Foods Tourists".

[glowing]

45. Unfortunately, for this woman, she doesn't have the funds to bribe off the raiding agents.

AND yes, this is on purpose. People who become educated about their food and its source, tend to give up the GMO food life style.

On the other hand, if you are going into the organic food productions, follow protocol because the food police are more intense on the small independent growers than the mono-farms.

[anarch]

47. actually I do sort of agree with that, to a certain extent

Processed and large scale retail food should be regulated and quality-controlled, for sure in my opinion, but I feel like the customers would pretty much know what they're getting into with a food club or whatever. Is it just the scale of the operation? The lack of taxation?

Maybe the exchange of currency is what makes this wrong? I have to admit, I don't understand this whole story. If someone traded, say, tomatoes for cucumbers instead of whatever for money, is that OK? Were retail operations buying this produce? I don't get it.

[and-justice-for-all]

69. I would be more than happy to buy this women porducts...

I am sure she would be more than happy to show me what she is feeding her stock and how she is growing her veg. Would ConAgra so the same??

What this is, is a shack down; Of the FDA wants to come and check her stock and handling, I am sure she would do so. However I am sure the people who are buying this hormonal free product are not complaining. She is a small farm selling to people in the area, not feeding a country.

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. Yes. Think of the consumers. Leave food up to Monsanto, Tyson, ADM and the factory farms.

They know what is best.

:sarcasm: cuz people should never be underestimated.

[awoke_in_2003]

149. put down the pom poms...

our government stopped caring about the welfare of the people long ago. Unless you can contribute vast amounts of money for campaign funds you DO NOT matter to them.

[jody]

8. The only thing surprising is those who tout socialism and omniscience govt. would say a discouraging

word about any infringement of omnipotent govt. upon the rights of sovereign individuals.

Either the state is supreme and whoever controls the state is the real ruler of We the Sheep or each individual retains certain unalienable/inalienable rights upon which no legal government can infringe.

Those rights are not granted by government or by a simple majority of the peoples representatives but are unalienable and no words on a piece of paper whether law or Constitution can prohibit those pre-existing rights.

That's true whether an individual right is freedom of speech, religion, assembly, marriage, or even drinking milk fresh from the animal.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. What's this? We can't make other people sick with our tainted spoiled food these days?

What is this world coming too?

[Subdivisions]

17. I don't need anyone to take care of me when I'm buying from

a local farmer. Period.

[RKP5637]

37. Same here. I grew up decades ago in a farming area, we survived just fine and in

fact a lot healthier probably IMO than many consuming the chemically enhanced food products of today. I would rather go to a locally trusted farm any day.

[sabrina 1]

19. If only that were true. But on the contrary, the food approved

by our government is making Americans sick. Not to mention that they won't even allow labels so we know what poison Big Food Corps are putting in our food.

I'll take farm food any day. I trust my local farmers, not so much government approved food.

[MajorChode]

32. Really?

You have evidence people are getting sick from this?

You keep saying farmers have been doing this for centuries, and that is true, but for centuries people have also been getting sick and dying from foodborne pathogens. Not so much today. So do you have actual evidence that the food prior to widespread industry regulation is safer than the food of today? If you do have such information, based on empirical studies, I'd like to see it.

[WinkyDink]

141. If the govt wanted to protect us from bad food, it would look at additives.

[MajorChode]

159. You mean like salt, cornstarch, and baking soda?

Or do you mean other ones with scary sounding names that you don't understand?

Just curious.

[Rex]

20. Sure we can, well big business can and does all the time. Just not the little guy

who has no lobbyist on Capitol Hill. That is what these populist farmers need...lobbists! Probably couldn't afford one.

[tabasco]

24. If I want to buy food from my neighbor's farm,

THAT'S MY FUCKING BUSINESS.

[RKP5637]

41. AGREE!!! n/t

[caboose]

51. Would you want to be informed if they were using human waste for fertilizer?

I think I would...

[demigoddess]

105. I know for a fact that that was done in europe

until the 1950s or so. Americans were paranoid but the french people seemed to be surviving just fine when I lived over there and most of the city people had backyard gardens for the kitchen ala Martha Stewart. Even now europeans have a fresher, closer to the farm food supply.

[WinkyDink]

142. The point of buying local would be: you would know. Do you know what Archer D.M. adds/uses?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. I want to hold my baby on my lap when I drive.

But big brother tyrannical government won't let me.

[caboose]

53. I know, it won't even let us discipline them with hot pokers.

What a revolting development!

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. says the raw milk guy

[WillyT]

70. Hey Man...

Your profile says you're from rural Oregon...

Many moons ago, I used to live in the village of Mendocino, at the southern tip of the "Emerald Triangle" along the northern coast of California.

Now this was in the 90's, and most people had a job, and an ATM, and MAYBE a credit card, yet MANY of them chose to barter most of the time.

For instance... I might have a side of beef and need a some roof repairs, you might be willing to repair the roof if the amount and quality of beef is up to snuff.

Problem with the Powers That Be... We've totally circumvented them. no taxation.

Problem for those bartering... knowing where and who to go to to get quality stuff.

That doesn't happen in rural Oregon???

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. Cool story, bro.

Not really, we've got legal tender here in rural Oregon. It can be exchanged for goods and services. Everybody except the really stupid avoid buying raw milk with it though.

[WillyT]

73. Oh... I See...

Sorry about your rural experience.

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. My rural experience is just fine.

We're not scientifically illiterate hicks who think raw milk is good for you.

[WillyT]

77. I'm Sure The Dairy Industry Thanks You

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/08/06/cow2,0.jpg

We thank you!!!

[MajorChode]

86. While yer on your bullshit guilt by association kick, don't forget...

Ron Paul thanks you...
http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/03/09/ron-paul-wants-to-make-the-sale-of-raw-milk-legal/

So by your own fallacious backwards logic you MUST be a shill for Ron Paul. I think that may disqualify you for membership on DU. You might want to check on that.

Cheers!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

92. I'm sure the snake oil and mortuary industry thanks you.

[HughMoran]

145. Embarrasing

Pathetic/sad argument there.

[tabasco]

88. You sound like you need the government

to tell you when to take a shit.

Food from my neighbor's farm is much more healthy and wholesome than FDA-approved garbage.

Your analogy FAILS.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. Nah, FDA approved stuff is way healthier than your neighbor's shit tainted milk.

Drinking raw milk is as stupid as driving with a baby on your lap.

Analogy holds.

[WinkyDink]

143. Straw man.

[SnakeEyes]

101. Once money is exchanged..

It becomes a business and the business of the government and regulators due to health and safety issues.

[FedUpWithIt All]

34. We can't but Jiffy, Chef Boyardee, Carnation, Toll House, Pringles, Kellogs

BPA enriched canned goods and every product that contains mercury contaminated HFCS, to name but a few, are allowed.

I'll take my chances with local and low production any day.

[rucky]

82. They poison thousands.

a bad batch of cheese will send a dozen or so people to the crapper for a few hours. Not to mention that most fresh food gets tainted in its handling. Less transport, storage & middlemen involved, less chance of contamination.

[rucky]

80. I only trust factory farms, myself.

There's no way a family could produce anything but tainted food.

[conspirator]

18. How dare you produce your own food? You gotta sell your land to monsanto and eat

their genetically modified plastic food

[Spike89]

21. Bull, this is about woo-woos in business

I have no problem with people growing their own food and neither apparently do the feds. I do have a problem when businesses attempt to scam the system to bypass safety regulations. Didn't people read the part about deaths and illnesses associated with these regulation-dodging shysters?

I'm open to revisiting the laws, and I do know that the FDA can be in the pocket of agribusiness--but I also know that unregulated business will just send us right back to "The Jungle".

[Starry Messenger]

26. Produce, yes.

Sell unregulated, no. I'm not really aiming this at you, but I mean this more as a general question. Why are we usually against privatization until it comes to food? There are plenty of middleman-farmers who are not "Big Ag." and are also not "boutique farms" who are complying with government regulations. Why do these newcomers want to contribute to a culture of an unregulated free market? This is how the charter school movement got legs. Appeals to emotion and pitting it as a fight against the little guy.

[MajorChode]

40. Complying with most of the regulation is pretty simple

In the states that allow raw milk to be sold (which includes California), compliance is not that difficult.

[Starry Messenger]

42. I can't even imagine wanting to drink raw milk.

I believe you, I'm sure the regs are not that onerous. I think we agree. Why did the raw milk movement ever take off? I guess I could google. In my little world Pasteur is considered a hero.

[msanthrope]

61. It's called woo.

Seriously.

[Canuckistanian]

64. Pasteurization was implemented because of unscrupulous dairy sellers

Who would knowingly sell tainted or outdated milk. It was deemed a public health risk.

In the farm communities, it wasn't a problem. You KNEW where your milk came from. Usually from the barn next to the house.

Pasteurization isn't required to make drinkable milk. I've had "black market", unpasteurized milk lots of times.

[Starry Messenger]

75. Well, ok.

Is there now a shortage of unscrupulous people? :) I mean, no one is stopped from drinking raw milk if they want to do this. It just isn't deemed the standard for milk sold to the public. It sounds like there was a good reason for this standard in an expanding country that moved further and further away from the farms. They couldn't protect themselves by knowing where the milk came from, right?

[Canuckistanian]

79. No, you miss the point

There are those who have been consuming raw milk for decades. And there are rules for doing it.

The "boutique farms" are following those rules.

I'm not advocating for widespread, factory production of raw milk. But just allow those who want it to get it.

[Starry Messenger]

87. Then why are people here angry that this person was raided?

I'm missing that part of the puzzle. I believe you and M. Choade that there are rules in place. But this seller was not following them, right? Or else why would the feds get involved? Are you talking about federal rules or some other kind?

From the link:

Meanwhile, the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture, Trade, and Consumer Protection has launched three raids over the last three months on the dairy farm and farm store of Vernon Hershberger, near Madison. The day after DATCP agents placed seals on his fridges storing raw dairy products in July, Hershberger cut the seals, and announced he was going to challenge the agency's contention he needs a dairy and retail license to sell his products. Obtaining such licenses would be problematic, though, since Wisconsin prohibits sale of raw milk, except "incidental" sales, and defining "incidental" has been a bone of contention for many years. In any event, Hershberger contends he sells only to consumers who contract privately for his food.

What's behind all these raids? They seem to stem from increasing concern at both the state and federal level about the spread of private food groups that have sprung up around the country in recent years -- food clubs and buying groups to provide specialized local products that are generally unavailable in groceries, like grass-fed meats, pastured eggs, fermented foods, and, in some cases, raw dairy products. Because they are private and limited to consumers who sign up for membership, these groups generally avoid obtaining retail and public health licenses required of retailers that sell to the general public.

In late 2008 and early 2009, the representatives of state agriculture agencies in Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan, and Illinois met via phone conferences with representatives of the FDA to map a plan for targeting raw-milk buying clubs in the Midwest. The meetings came to light after Max Kane, the owner of a Wisconsin buying club who was subpoenaed by Wisconsin authorities for the names of his customers and suppliers, obtained email accounts of the sessions via a Freedom of Information request to Wisconsin's Agriculture, Trade, and Consumer Protection department. (Kane has since been prosecuted by Wisconsin authorities for contempt of court for failing to give up the names; his case is under appeal after he was found guilty last December.)

[MajorChode]

81. There were lots of other reasons why pasteurization was implemented

Some of them are not so relevant today. The main reasons why it's still used today is because it extends shelf life and it's still a cheap way to insure a safe product. Since many people still feed cow milk to babies, there's still a public health concern. I believe so-called raw milk should be widely available everywhere (and it isn't), but people should be informed as to what they are buying and what the risks and benefits are.

[Canuckistanian]

83. Right you are

It should be clearly labelled with farm information, milking time and expiration date.

But after that, it's caveat emptor.

[enki23]

103. right. you can just sniff it and make sure there's no brucellosis.

it's only the old rotten stuff that'll make you sick. fresh, good stuff never will.

[MajorChode]

66. There are some reasons why someone might want to buy raw milk

For instance, if you are making your own cheese there are a few reasons to use it. The problem with pasteurization is that it reduces good bacteria as well as bad bacteria. Pasteurization certainly has its place, even today, but it's not quite as relevant as it once was now that milk can be tested for pathogens in the production and distribution steps.

[Starry Messenger]

76. I forgot about artisan cheese. Thank you.

It sounds like people are buying this milk to drink too, and if they feel like they are fully informed consumers about it, I'm not going to stop them, obviously. :D I just don't think it is appropriate to reform the system of agriculture to protect deregulation. That sets off alarm bells for me.

[Warren DeMontague]

95. I like to suck it straight out of the cow. Mmmmmm.

Science and modern technology be damned!

[Recursion]

133. Raw milk tastes great, and most of the world doesn't have a problem with it

The problem with raw milk is you can't transport it very far; it's good for a few days rather than severa weeks.

But, if you're curious why people like it, the main reason is that it tastes amazingly good.

[DefenseLawyer]

36. I'm going to have to come down on the side of The Man on this one

If you sell food, it should subject to inspection.

[msanthrope]

38. Apparently, she lost her license to sell dairy--but continues to do so....

"Because the CDFA had previously suspended her dairy license, in late 2008, Palmer says she had worked hard to survive without selling dairy products, instead selling beef, pork, chickens, and eggs she raises on the farm. "They nearly forced me out of business with the previous raids," she says. She and her three children "are barely surviving."

She had continued providing milk to Vanderplanitz's Rawesome as part of a previously existing herdshare arrangement. "I'm not part of Aajonus' business," Palmer told me. He and other owners of the goats "have their herdshare and pick up their milk here." They even do their own bottling.

The search warrant, executed by a CDFA agent, refers to "ongoing criminal actions since January 2009." She says one of the agents said it was ongoing "about cheese and milk." When she inquired of the man who identified himself as being with the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office as to why they were after her again when all she was doing was fulfilling terms of a herdshare agreement, he said, "We don't agree you can have a private membership.""

http://tickergrail.blogspot.com/2010/07/in-vonderplanitz-affair-sharon-palmer.html



Sharon Palmer's served time for mortgage swindling.....

I wouldn't believe a friggin' word out of her mouth without independent verification.


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/home-base-mortgage-brokers-accused-of-scamming-widow

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jul/19/business/fi-55157

[MajorChode]

84. So it seems there IS another side to the story

Imagine that. Who would have thought that getting only one side of the story and running with it would cause someone to step on one of their appendages?

[KittyWampus]

43. So Regulating businesses is good except for when DU'ers get all emotional

and decide it's bad.

[caboose]

46. All business is bad unless it's good.

I'm still looking for a list...
:shrug:

[girl gone mad]

55. This goes beyond reasonable regulation.

Authorities are raiding small farms multiple times without notifying the owners as to why they are being raided, confiscating computers and equipment and holding it for months or years, implementing draconian restrictions drawn up by big corporate lobbyists that are designed specifically to make it impossible for small competitors to comply, and then selectively enforcing these provisions.

This is just another sad example of the way in which our government is now a tool which the corporate oligarchy uses to crush small people who threaten to erode their profits, however marginally.

[msanthrope]

60. She lost her licence to sell dairy, and still sells dairy.

I don't find it draconian to take action against her.

[Odin2005]

164. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000

[Confusious]

56. Regulating business is good

Until they come for your raw milk or supplements. Then it's a conspiracy to keep the "little man" down.

And then who's left to speak? The vegetables?

[WhiteTara]

44. I just found my local milk

and I've just copied the article and will give it to her. Although I found out about her from a bulletin board, I'm going to suggest she remove it. Word of mouth should be her advertising.

[4lbs]

62. Uh, you can produce your own food. However, if you want to sell it, then you must follow FDA

regulations and get that food inspected before you sell it.

If not, expect to be raided.

My parents grow their own fruits and vegetables. The garden is out in the open for all to see. They've been doing this for almost a decade now. They've never even had a police officer come by asking about it. That's because they don't sell that produce. It's for their own consumption.

However, if they ever did try to sell those fruits and vegetables they grow, they should expect to have it first inspected by someone from the FDA or Department of Agriculture.

Several times, they have given away some of what they grow because it's too much. Mostly the oranges, since the trees produce many more oranges than they could ever hope to eat. So, they end up giving away about half the oranges they grow to friends and family. No government raid there either, because it's not a sale.

In fact, the most government intrusion is that several times a year, a person from the Department of Agriculture comes by and places white-fly traps on their orange trees.

[ecstatic]

67. What if an unsuspecting pregnant woman

drank the milk after wrongly assuming it was pasteurized? I'm as frustrated with "big ag" as the next person, but the government was correct this time. I don't get why this got 35 recs.

[and-justice-for-all]

68. I just sent this to my reps,this is just unaccpetable..nt

[RB TexLa]

85. When I said I will continue to buy Gulf fish and oysters in Louisiana I was told

they will get those fishermen and that I didn't believe in the FDA and wanted people to die from unregulated food. Strange reading the replies to this.

[applegrove]

89. Some people sell unpasturized milk on the side. In Canada there

have been a few cases when they close down a farm business because of the use of unpasturized milk. People like the product but it is very dangerous.

[MajorChode]

90. Is it not illegal to sell unpasturized milk for consumption in Canada?

I think that might be why they are getting shut down.

[applegrove]

91. I believe so. They closed Peninsula Farms yogurt a decade ago in Nova Scotia because

they used unpasturized milk. It was great yogurt.

[sweetloukillbot]

113. There was an article in the Ariizona Republic a few years ago about milk smuggling...

There are only a couple farms that are licensed for raw milk in AZ, so smugglers were flying it in from California and selling it on the black market....

[enki23]

102. nothing makes a fucking nutball go full libertarian like public safety regs for food and medicine

"FUCK the FDA for not approving pot for the treatment of phantom phantom limb pain, neti-post induced sinus infections, and hemorrhoids! pot Cured my Cousin's cousin's pancreatic cancer!!!! To hell with the MMR vaccine!!!!111 And I'd rather my Kids get measles, mumps, AND rubella than Catch Autism from all those damned jew-invented Poison vaccines like i read about on whale.To!!!!!11 Too Many too Soon! Green Our vaccines! Save the whales, and down with the Fucking Fascist Food police! We WANT our exotic E. coli, not to mention our goddamned brucellosis, and we sure as FUCK don't want it labelled, you fascist pig fucks!

[Warren DeMontague]

109. Well, pot should be legal for consenting adults to use for whatever the fuck they want.

Other than that, I agree with you.

[Odin2005]

165. Jenny McCarthy's BS has nothing to do with this.

:eyes:

[DRex]

111. That's good old fashioned American freedom, baby!

[liberation]

112. This is quite the misleading spin on this story....

good grief. Selling unpasteurized stuff not labeled as such is a big no-no, has nothing to do with "freedom to grow food" but basic public health regulations.

[Telly Savalas]

118. Some people like to lie.

We're in two wars, child poverty is at about 15% in the US, we're still facing a severe recession, and are confronted with a host of environmental issues to tackle, but for some people the real world is too boring so they make shit up to fuel a false sense of outrage.

If I were one of the infamous Paid Rightwing Trolls (TM) aiming to disrupt reasonable discussion, the original post and posts defending it are precisely the sort of shit I'd fling at the wall. I'm not enough of a tinfoiler to suggest that's what's happening here. I'm just pointing out that the net impact is indistinguishable. What party is it again that takes as a foundational belief that we can't trust government and regulations?

[sce56]

117. So that is what they were up to! I saw about a dozen LA County DA Deputies preping for a raid

By Starbucks a few weeks back yet there was no report in the VC Star about the police action!
And this is Ventura county where did the LA County DA get jurisdiction over Ventura County?

[TBF]

119. There is a reason for the FDA - and with the number of recalls we

see I'm damned glad we have them. If this woman were just producing for her immediate family it would be different, but she is selling to others.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

120. holy fuck.

:scared:

[flyarm]

122. damn next thing you know they will be raiding our EGG Farms , and roadside veggie stands!

thoughts of no roadside Corn or tomatoes..

or those thousands of Floridians who were treated to free strawberries ..pick your own... after such a bad cold winter in Fla messed up the strawberry crops for the farmers..

I never knew I was eating such bad food ..in the right off the farm field produce buying..

In fact ..I should be dead according to some postings here..since I grew up next to a farm..that did not use any chemicals on the Tomatoes, or all the veggies My mom canned or froze that got us through all the cold winters my dad was out of work!!.. I had no idea all that wonderful farm fresh..no pesticide food was so bad for me!!


But then before I retired My property butted up to a farm..in NJ..that grew strawberries..and the amount of pesticides sprayed on the fruit..made me sell my home....I would not eat that poisonous shit for anything!!
But since the pseticides came onto my property ( before I sold my home) I had no bugs or anything in my yard..but I refused to walk through my grass for fear of Lighting up with chemicals!

If you think you are eating Safely today..with all the chems sprayed on the farm food today..you are sorely mistaken!

Oh and I would guess all the people of France should be dead..since they don't pasturize their cheese..they air dry their cheese..and it has taste and smell that is like nothing in this over processed country of ours!

[sabrina 1]

123. I should be dead too, if what I'm reading here were true.

Ironically all those advocating for the government to tell you what you can eat, are more than happy to eat the poison-covered fruit and vegetables 'regulated' by the government. I worked near one of those farms where every day machines sprayed all the produce with some chemical you could smell a mile away. No one raided that farm but we could not allow our students outside to play most days because it was in the air for hours afterwards. FDA approved, I'm sure.

[jwirr]

124. Am I correct in assuming that she is getting raided not because she

grows her own food but because she sells it?

[flyarm]

137. are they raiding all the summer road side veggie stands of farmers all over the country?

or Targetting one farm that the big boy corproate farms feel threatened by? Our want to take over?
Lots and lots of road side stands where I live..fresh tomatoes..corn..etc..and I Know which ones don't use the poisonous sprays!!

The big corporate whore farmers don't want people knowing what REALNon Chemical Produce tastes like!!

[jwirr]

157. That is what I assumed was going on.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

128. I hate these misleading headlines.

I had an issue with one the other day. When you disagree with the headline then you're labelled something you're not. (Such as being pro BP police state).

We CAN grow our own food. BUT, when we sell it to other people it has to meet certain regulations to keep the public safe. I think that's a good idea. I also like the idea of raw milk and all that. BUT, I have hand milked cows and have seen the flies floating in the milk....not to mention little chunks of shit from her swinging swooshing tail. I later learned how to tie the tail to a wire to keep it from smacking me upside the head.

Sure there are better conditions to milk cows, BUT how do you know where the milk is coming from. People run the milk through a strainer to get the flies out of it.

[Ratty]

132. I guess progressives are for govt regulation until it targets them n/t

[Bennyboy]

134. One reason why I really don't want to see Pot legalized...

Pot will become another commodity to be patented,and then grown only by big agra...

[MajorChode]

135. And here I thought it was just a myth that it made you paranoid

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Dog forgive me.

[scentopine]

136. I guess this is what the centrists mean when they talk about better regulation.

Look, will you people please consider that the centrists are saving us money? It costs very little to march into a family farm and terrorize the family out of competition with Kraft Food.

If those jackboots raided the corporate offices of Kraft food, it would cost 250 million in lawyer fees. We get much bigger bang for the buck by attacking the non-rich.

At least they aren't water-boarding. Yet.

[Subdivisions]

138. I had no idea this OP would generate this level of conversation when I posted it.

I completely understand the need for food safety regulations. However, this woman was selling to people who sought out her product. Labeling the fact that the milk was raw was not necessary for this woman's customers. They KNOW what they're getting. I can go down to the farmers' market right now and buy raw milk (labeled). And, if it weren't labeled, it wouldn't change a thing.

My whole point, and I apologize if the headline was misleading or "spin", is that it is getting harder and harder for small farmers to make it, much less sell their produce/milk/eggs/etc. They are being crowded out by Big Agro who are using (lobbied/grafted) legislation and police tactics to enforce their non-competitive tactics.

For thousands and thousands of years humans lived and died producing their own food. If I go to a grocery store to buy groceries, I expect there to be standards and food safety regs. However, when I go to the point of production to buy organic food, I have no expectation of standards and regs. And it should be my right to take that slight chance that the food is bad without fearing that my patronizing the local farm will result in having my farmer's life turned upside down.

Now, I'll wrap this up with a question: When a spot of spinach from a Big Agro operation KILLS someone, where are the raids? Where are the Monsanto raids? Where are the Cargill raids? Where are the ADM raids? Where are the Tyson raids? Why is it these Big Agro companies can get away with producing sub-standard food while small farmers are being raided?

[scentopine]

152. Corporate cash is the crop centrists cultivate, when will they storm the homes of BP execs?

Never. With all the bullshit in fortune 500, oil companies, war, etc. Obama's centrist posse is attacking teachers, small farms, reproductive rights, those less able to defend themselves.

Goldman bought the SEC for 500 million, BP bought the entire gulf of mexico for 20 billion. We are selling out to these giant corporations for less than pennies on the dollar.

If small farms don't want to be raided, they need to pay protection money to Washington just like the big boys. Its a get out of jail for free card.

Think of this as a simple free market incentive to contribute more to the party in power.

[boppers]

158. Where are the ADM raids?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Daniels_Midland#Price_fixing (and more in the article)

We've sent their folks to hard prison time for breaking the law.

Just FYI.

[Warren DeMontague]

162. "I can go down to the farmers' market right now and buy raw milk (labeled)."

Okay, so despite all the ZOMG ZOMG MONSANTO WANTS TO TAKE AWAY MY RAW MILK ZOMG ZOMG histrionics in this thread, you can still buy it. Easily. It just needs a label.

And it would be pretty meaningless to have a law that says "Raw milk products must be labeled, unless the people buying it already know it's raw milk"... how would that work, exactly?

Lastly, for the :tinfoilhat: gang in the thread: The Illuminati Overlords at Monsanto don't give a shit about your raw milk, much less lie awake at night hatching plots against your barter-based organic food co-op. I guarantee it.

[immune]

139. Hang on to your shirts, its about to get worse.

http://www.treeoflife.nu/gabriel-cousens-m-d/activism-outreach/bill-510/

[Kablooie]

140. When I was young my uncle had a full traditional family farm in Montana.

Cows in the fields would file into the barn at sunset and be milked.
Chickens and ducks in the yard.
The family dinner was all fresh cream, butter, eggs and meat from their own farm.
The family leftovers went to the pigs in the pig pen.
They had several wheat fields also.

When I visited the farm in 2001, the barn and animals were gone. Nothing there but dry dirt.
It was illegal for them to raise any animals without following maniacal regulations.
Animals could not be raised without government approved facilities to raise them in including private toilets to be used only by inspectors.
A traditional barn was not legal for cows anymore. Needless to say, the pig pen was illegal also.

All they had left were the wheat fields scattered around the country that they were legally allowed to grow.
All their groceries had to come from the local store, by law.

Breakfast was frozen waffles like anywhere else.

It was very sad and it showed on their faces.

[Subdivisions]

161. Thank you for saying so well what I failed to communicate with my hyperbole. It's

this exact story that I was attempting to point out in posting this article.

Very sad.

[Odin2005]

167. That's exactly what our corporate masters want.

:grr:

[ElboRuum]

151. Apparently not...

Any steps we take to cut the corporate umbilical cord to our food supply is likely to be a profit concern of agribusiness.

[Liberal_in_LA]

153. holy sh*t

[Junkdrawer]

163. Kick

:kick: