Sometimes I think the left/liberals/progressives are sending some really mixed messages

[The Straight Story]

Which is not really unexpected given the big tent thing and all.

But I think that is really the biggest source of long winded/posted discussions - and I am not sure really where the solution lays.

An analysis though of some core things may prove insightful however (and yours is welcome, which is why I am posting this so I can better understand it all - only relying on self input won't teach me much, I tried that with sex and found out how wrong I was! Going it alone is not always the best way...)

I am finding two core sets (note I said core, not only) of mind on social issues:
1. Legislate it, because your rights are not as important of the group rights and the group needs to protect itself.
2. Let people make their own decisions in many matters, making things illegal only does more harm. Protecting the individuals rights is what freedom is about, not the group.

Again - this is on SOME issues. Here are some examples:

1. Smoking - one of the hot button topics here. Group 2 fears group 1 limiting it's god given right to freely associate and go to businesses that feel the same way and welcome them as patrons. Group 2 sees their efforts as saving others who can't get away from the smoke in their place of employment. Each group wants to protect something, just opposite things. (Now that is a simple version of course). Group 2 wonders why group 1 is not encouraging cities and states more to pass laws on emissions and banning cars that don't meet it. They can do both of course, but seem to focus on the one as it is 'easy'

2. Health - Group 1 is all for live as you see fit, your body your choice. Group 2 says your life is costing them more money in healthcare premiums and making them suffer more (less money, less food, etc).

One could go on with more (from caps on wages, to testing people for alcohol, etc and so on) - but I say again it appears that one group is more about individual rights trumping the group and the other is opposite.

We DO find common ground, that's why we work together. There are though hot issues that seem to send conflicting messages to folks.

Freedom over your body, but not always. Freedom to get assisted suicide, but not to drive without a seat belt. Freedom to smoke pot for your health care (or any other reason), but not freedom to smoke if it harms you and costs us more (like the scott's company firing people who smoke on their own time at home being backed).

I ask basically: Where do we draw the line between group and individual? One could yell out - when your habit/action/etc affects others; but then I am sure we can find where just about anything you do affects others, like spending a lot of time on DU typing and getting carpal tunnel syndrome and driving up my rates, eating X or drinking Y, and so on. We can always map something you do to how it impacts others it seems.

(ps - I don't want to get into a flame war about smoking, etc - it is the core ideals and there are many more examples, feel free to use your own)

[illinoisprogressive]

1. You are asking an either or. I think most of us are a combination of them

sometimes a group thing is more effective and realistic and sometimes it should be free choice and individual. Thre is no real line as it will blurr. One thing about us is that we are not set on hard and fast and rules, ect. That's why we are dems and not republicans. We move and adjust and are kinda scattered.

[The Straight Story]

2. I would agree with that, and note as well

That that is exactly why it gets so difficult at times. It is like a moving target.

The question I think I am trying to get at it is - where does there exist any kind of semi-solid line on issues? Maybe it does not exist as a whole per se, but I think each person has one.

[illinoisprogressive]

4. there is your answer. It lays with each person. The old line about dems

is "I don't belong to an organized party. I'm a democrat!" and it still holds true

[Erika]

3. I think your premise is 100 percent wrong

I've known heavy smokers and drinkers who outlasted the "others" by years.

It's the mind and attitude.

[illinoisprogressive]

5. Also stubborness! lol

[Erika]

6. I've also known the obese who literallly hated smokers. n/t

[The Straight Story]

7. I do too

and I posted thread on that very subject once :)

[BeFree]

8. Freedom over your own body

In all ways. There is no other freedom that rates as high. Nobody has any right to tell me what to with my own body as long as my actions do not infringe upon another's rights to their body.

[Quantess]

9. where do YOU draw the line between group and individuality?

Democrats as individuals, and democrats as a group?