US 'victory' against cult leader was 'massacre'

[tblue37]

From the Independent Online:

<snip>A picture is beginning to emerge of a clash between an Iraqi Shia tribe on a pilgrimage to Najaf and an Iraqi army checkpoint that led the US to intervene with devastating effect. The involvement of Ahmed al-Hassani (also known as Abu Kamar), who believed himself to be the coming Mahdi, or Messiah, appears to have been accidental. The story emerging on independent Iraqi websites and in Arabic newspapers is entirely different from the government's account of the battle with the so-called "Soldiers of Heaven", planning a raid on Najaf to kill Shia religious leaders.

The cult denied it was involved in the fighting, saying it was a peaceful movement. The incident reportedly began when a procession of 200 pilgrims was on its way, on foot, to celebrate Ashura in Najaf. They came from the Hawatim tribe, which lives between Najaf and Diwaniyah to the south, and arrived in the Zarga area, one mile from Najaf at about 6am on Sunday. Heading the procession was the chief of the tribe, Hajj Sa'ad Sa'ad Nayif al-Hatemi, and his wife driving in their 1982 Super Toyota sedan because they could not walk. When they reached an Iraqi army checkpoint it opened fire, killing Mr Hatemi, his wife and his driver, Jabar Ridha al-Hatemi. The tribe, fully armed because they were travelling at night, then assaulted the checkpoint to avenge their fallen chief.

Members of another tribe called Khaza'il living in Zarga tried to stop the fighting but they themselves came under fire. Meanwhile, the soldiers and police at the checkpoint called up their commanders saying they were under attack from al-Qai'da with advanced weapons. Reinforcements poured into the area and surrounded the Hawatim tribe in the nearby orchards. The tribesmen tried - in vain - to get their attackers to cease fire.

American helicopters then arrived and dropped leaflets saying: "To the terrorists, surrender before we bomb the area." The tribesmen went on firing and a US helicopter was hit and crashed killing two crewmen. The tribesmen say they do not know if they hit it or if it was brought down by friendly fire. The US aircraft launched an intense aerial bombardment in which 120 tribesmen and local residents were killed by 4am on Monday.<snip>

more at http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2201103.ece

Although I am posting this in GD, perhaps it should be considered LBN, even though it is not confirmed???

[tblue37]

1. This is a big deal. C'mon people! (eom)

[tblue37]

3. I see someone has recommended this, but can we keep it kicked? If it is true, it is very,

very important!

[Kagemusha]

2. There's at least one other serious version going around

saying they found heavy weaponry and tunnels in an encampment... now... that may well be an encampment of the "other" tribe above that was targeted because, well, the government thought it a good target for US air strikes... also they said, found 2 anti-aircraft guns. Um, Saddam's anti-aircraft 'guns' were heavy machineguns with a 5000 ft range I think, vehicle mounted usually. That's pathetic for air defense (one reason the US had such free reign during both wars EXCEPT against Apache gunships during the invasion in '03).

[tblue37]

5. I will take the heavy weaponry with a grain of salt for now.

I hate to say it, but I just naturally assume every story they tell us is a lie and a cover-up.

[Kagemusha]

11. I sympathize greatly and remain hopeful a definitive version arrives

I like knowing the truth about such things. I'm an oddball like that. :)

[Warren Stupidity]

4. This was obvious bullshit within hours of the first contradictory reports.

When it leaked out that the purported insurgents were travelling with women and children, it was clear that these were pilgrims and that the whole incident was in fact a massacre, an atrocity.

[tblue37]

6. Also, here was the idea that the Iraqis would not have noticed such a

major build-up going on so close by them.

[mediaman007]

7. What the hell do we pay the leadership of our military?

Too much! Man we are overrated! We better stick to parades because the the Iraquis are outplaying us at every turn. First we can't find WMD's, then we try to make this rescue of a female soldier into a daring raid, only to find out that we could have walked in a taken her back, then we somehow can't guard the ammo dumps, we put Saddam in a spider hole for PR, we let the perverts loose in Abu Garib (sic), we can't turn on the electricity, we can't get them running water, thousands of Iraquis are out of the country for their safety, we don't have equipment for our soldiers or the Iraquis that we want to take over their own defense. And the list goes on!


Only for Cheney to say: Things are getting better!

This the real "Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight!" What a cluster...! Pack it up, come home and tell us war stories. What a joke.

[illinoisprogressive]

8. thank you. I knew it wasn't the truth but, Bush spin.

[ConsAreLiars]

9. The original story was utterly bizarre.

The monsters and their henchmen initially claimed that the "enemy" was dug into fortified positions just sitting there, and at the same time that they were en route to commit mayhem in Najaf. This sounds much more realistic and well documented.

I think posting in LBN is appropriate, more appropriate than quotes from Pentagon hacks and neocon operatives.

[tblue37]

10. But would it be considered against the rules for me to repost this in LBN?

[tblue37]

12. Actually, since it just got rec'd to the Greatest page, people will see it anyway,

so I will just leave it alone, I guess.

We have to struggle constantly against the misinformation spread by the combination of adminsitration spin and MSM stenography. People need to read this story.

[roody]

13. I see many folks not following the rules of LBN and we are

better informed because of that.

[tblue37]

15. I always hesitate to put something in LBN. Actually, I probably

overuse GD. I have had at least one of my threads moved out of GD by moderators.

But for some reason I feal too diffident where LBN is concerned.

[tblue37]

25. As it turns out, someone else recently posted this same article

in LBN, so probably that is where I should have posted it in the first place.

[ConsAreLiars]

14. There is no prohibition against posting "Late breaking News" in LBN and in other forums.

There are some specific rules for posts that appear in LBN, like using the story headline as a thread title rather than making up your own title. Read the rules first: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x87249

(edit to add) It is an important story and the Independent is a generally reliable source.

[tblue37]

16. I did use the article title as the thread title, but since this version

of the story has not been confirmed (though it certainly seems far more plausible than the official version!), I didn't quite feel comfortable "claimigng" it as LBN.

[kentuck]

17. Why do you call it a "cult"...?

That's the oldest propaganda trick in the book...

[Kagemusha]

18. That's what The Independent called it breathlessly at first

and now it's questioning its own reporting, drawn from UK government-friendly sources in Iraq.

The logic was, if the story held true, the enemy was led by a heretic according to mainstream Shiite religion and that made him leader of a cult.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. 'Cult' seems appropriate for them

but the point of the story is that the cult seem more like by-standers. Here's why they look like a cult:

The “Judge” appears better known to the authorities than was at first apparent. On January 2 security services in Najaf ordered the confiscation of all copies of Judge of Heaven, only one day after its publication, and the arrest of anyone who owned or sold it. On page 2 the author says: “I reveal and declare to you in this book my real identity that I am the Mahdi” — a near-heretical statement referring to the 10th-cen-tury 12th imam whose long-awaited second coming is central to Shia belief.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2575796,00.html

[tblue37]

24. I didn't. I used the title of the article in _The Independent_ as

the title of the thread.

[piedmont]

19. This makes a hell of a lot more sense than the first reports to come out. nt

[daleo]

20. This has the ring of truth

The official story seemed fishy, as usual. Give it a week, and I bet this is confirmed.

[oblivious]

22. Yes it does indeed. The official story was way beyond belief.

[ngant17]

21. 250 insurgents killed in one day?

this is not believable in the first place. Even if the report was based on some facts, the Iraqi resistance doesn't field its troops in such concentrations to allow them to be killed en masse this way. At least it hasn't done this before.

The secondary reports of a massacre of innocents are beginning to make a lot of sense now.

I wonder how they're going to keep this out of the limelight now.

[malaise]

26. I hate to say I told you so but

as I posted on this thread on Monday:
"I'm taking bets that we'll hear this was just another slaughter. The end time language makes no sense particuarly the heaven part".
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=71004&mesg_id=71365

[tblue37]

27. I was thinking something along those lines, too, when I first read

about the "victory." The US spin is always pretty transparent.