The right is all wet when it talks about the Chevy Volt

[LuckyTheDog]

Much of the criticism about the Volt is based on lies, distortions or misunderstandings about the car and its powertrain.

For example, I have read smug comments on right-wing message boards about how the Volt will "need a long extension cord" if drivers want to go more than 40 miles. This ignores the on-board gas generator that extends the range to an unlimited amount of miles.

Others assert that the car was "mandated" by the Obama administration. The truth is that the Volt was in development long before Obama became a presidential candidate. So, the Volt could not have been mandated by the Obama crew without the use of a TIME MACHINE that could have allowed the administration to travel back to 2005.

Here are some examples of what I mean:

Exhibit A is this largely nonsensical discussion thread at Free Republic: http://tinyurl.com/26erzzl

Exhibit B is this blathering nonsense from Charles Krauthammer (a known liar) -- who clearly knows better when he refers to the Volt as an example of "the political and ideological desires of an administration ... imposed on a private company": http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/07/31/krauthammer_the_chevy_volt_is_a_disaster.html


(Edited for clarity and to fix a couple of goofs)

[Schema Thing]

1. unfortunately so is the left.

people are idiots.

[Oregone]

2. I'm just not thrilled about the whole thing

Seems expensive. Surely, it'll probably be obsolete in no time. I'm not sure its the particular direction I would of went in if I had a shred of say, but we will see. I thought they should of emulated the original Volkswagen model (after nationalization) and went more in that area (http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4488136#4488173). But hey, I'm not god...Im a failed megalomaniac

Of course, I posted that before I realized we need less industrialization and more hut living. See, I don't know everything.

[Auggie]

4. At least it's an attempt at something better

And it'll be perfect for the 30 mile round trip commute

[Oregone]

7. Yeah...but that doesn't mean it will significantly improve transportation & the environment

All different attempts have different possibilities of success...who knows though.

I was thinking big...grand....

Lightweight, cheap, stream lined affordable cars...the Green Volkswagen, with government incentives to buy and promote affordability. It could of been huge and amazing.

This...hm. Ill be able to afford one in 15 years. Not sure whatll be around by then.

[Auggie]

43. I would love to see "big, grand, huge and amazing..."

but is it plausible to expect a car company to invest the money required in R&D when they have to post quarterly profits, keep stockholders happy, and earn their top execs performance bonuses?

Yeah, it could be done, but not in this business climate. Not with this government.

[WonderGrunion]

28. It's no more expensive than the Prius was at first

And less gasoline used means less reason to predator drone attack Afgfhan babies. Who couldn't get behind that?

[TheWraith]

45. What could you possibly imagine gas has to do with Afghanistan?

You know that there's no oil in Afghanistan, right?

[obxhead]

50. You are correct, but

they are building a pipeline through Afghanistan to transport oil to the coast.

[TheWraith]

54. False.

There's a project for a natural gas pipeline. Not oil.

[Oregone]

47. Except for lithium needed for batteries

There is plenty of the in Afghanistan

[salin]

53. Maybe in Japan, but not in US (per price = when first released)

family member bought a Prius the first year they were on the market payed just over 20K. I thought I read that the Volt is in the 40K range. In 9 years, I don't think inflation has increased 100% such that 40K is worth what 20k was worth in 2001.

[w4rma]

3. Whats your problem with the Volt? (nt)

[Oregone]

8. My immediate problem is the price

I think this still is keeping with the car as an expensive status symbol marketing-model, used to promote each individuals uniqueness for an exorbitant price.

:)

Once we get past that, I could probably cite further issues I'm not immensely thrilled about.

It doesn't guzzle gas. Thats an improvement.

[w4rma]

9. If American wages and salaries had the buying power that we had in the 1970s then the Volt's price

would be a bargain. I think the price is what they felt they could make a profit at.

[Oregone]

10. "I think the price is what they felt they could make a profit at"

Yeah, and thats part of my concern--I imagine they could of streamlined it quite a bit and made a profit at a far lower price (selling an "inferior" product).

Hey...maybe Im odd and strange....but Id give up "luxury" features for an affordable, stream-lined electric vehicle. I don't give a damn what the car says about me really...I also don't own fancy watches. Maybe Im odd.

I realize its not for everyone...but hell...Germany went nuts for a pretty streamlined people's car. With the proper campaign, maybe they could of went after selling more at lower margins rather than fewer to some of the most well off at a higher price.

But hey...what do I know?

I guess the entire model bugs me a bit....especially in the face of global climate change, where we need drastic change from everyone (though eating beef a few times a week is probably worse than guzzling gas to your job).

[Schema Thing]

12. Far lower?

for god's sake man, the average cost of a new car sold last year was 29,270.00.


This is new, better technology.


The fact that I can't afford it doesn't mean I don't wish it to be a huge success that sells well and drives automakers to implement the technology on other cars and especially on trucks.

If you could just get an average 30mpg out of all the pickup trucks on the road, you'd save HUGE amounts of oil. This technology and concept could easily do that, and much, much better.


I'll wait 10-15 years and buy one, just like I did with the LandCruiser, RangeRover, BMW, Jaguar, and just about every other fine vehicle I've ever owned. Hell, I have to wait till a decent *economy* car is 6 years old or so before I can afford it.

[Oregone]

15. The average cost for a new car is insane

Maybe this isn't the car to buck the trend and do things different. It would be nice if the trend was bucked eventually and simpler models promoted (something like a hybrid Smartcar, at that price too).

Just because its only reasonably above an insane standard doesn't make the price something to overlook.

[AlabamaLibrul]

41. Indeed, sir, but most people buy cars that are unneccessarily large or have other options

that they don't really need. The base model Camry, which is typically the best selling car in America on any given year, starts under $20,000.

On the very low end of the spectrum, there are new cars like the Hyundai Accent "Blue", which leaves out a stereo (meh) and AC (a big deal for anyone living in this area), for under $11k, to the Nissan Cube for just under 15k but includes all features most people expect in a new car - ABS, AC, stability control, CD player, etc.

I would be much more excited if Chevy had 1) based the Volt on another model, perhaps a subcompact like their Aveo, reducing R&D costs, 2) followed a slightly modified version of Colin Chapman of Lotus Cars' motto: "Simplify, then add savings", and 3) had done so in such a way that it could have been pushed out in the $25-30,000 range.

With the inexpensive cars out there, and a fairly high estimate on the technology cost of $10,000 (you can convert a car to full electric for less than that in most cases) they likely could have brought it in around or under $30,000.

Even the Nissan Leaf rolled out at $33,000 and is a very capable all electric car. I'm not sure of the cost of the technology in the Volt, the "40 miles on electric and the rest on gas", but it just seems like a slight tweak on a hybrid car in my mind.

[Schema Thing]

42. "slight" perhaps, but also very smart, and hopefully game changing

Internal combustion engines have a fairly narrow efficiency-vs-power band. Therefore they are good battery chargers but not nearly as good wheel turners.

[AlabamaLibrul]

44. I just hope that the Volt isn't the last we see of this technology. It can only get better. (eom)

[obxhead]

51. To be fair the Leaf does not have a gas engine to extend the

driving distance significantly reducing the cost of production. Add that in and it would be right around the same price as the Volt.

[Psephos]

17. I remember when personal computers were $3000...same with hi-def tvs.

Any technology-intensive product is expensive to first adopters. Only after economies of scale kick in do you get a substantial price reduction. It takes a while to build mass demand, which is inversely proportional to cost.

Give this some time. GM is losing many thousands of $$ on each first-gen Volt, even at $41,000.

[Fumesucker]

21. But cars are not getting cheaper, they are getting more expensive..

If your analogy was an accurate one then cars in general would be getting cheaper, right along with computers.

This is clearly not the case in general and I don't think it's going to be the case with cars such as the Volt.

[w4rma]

22. The problem isn't the price of cars but the stagnation and devaluation of middle class incomes. (nt)

[Fumesucker]

23. But this thread is not about incomes, it is about cars..

Specifically this particular subthread is about the price of cars.

I don't think any great increase in middle class income is in the cards for the foreseeable future so the price of cars is a subject of concern given that our nation has a woefully inadequate public transportation system at the very best.

[w4rma]

35. It all depends on what WE decide is our priority. Increasing incomes could be made *the* priority.

And it would be done.

[ThomWV]

39. Incorrect - the price of cars has gone up about 4 time as much as incomes

[Psephos]

26. You're mistaken.

In real-dollar terms, cars are not getting more expensive, yet without a constant-dollar price table at hand, it's easy to think otherwise. Take a look here: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2008_fotw520.html This chart shows that car prices have been in gentle decline for the past 15 years, after a long period of parity. (ETA: I am referring to domestic-made cars.)

But that's not the whole story. The number of hours a person must work to buy a car has declined for more than fifty years. Not as fast as the decline in hours need to be worked for food and clothing, for example, but considerably faster than the decline in hours worked to buy a square foot of housing.

Meanwhile, the number of government regulations cars must meet has grown year after year, and each of these imposes costs, some of which are quite substantial.

Now, here's where the real decline in price has happened: in terms of value received for dollar paid, cars are exponentially better now than even 20 years ago. Digital engine management, exotic materials, CAD/CAE design, safety and crash performance, miles per gallon of gas per unit of vehicle weight, on and on. The digital control systems in particular have gotten immensely better per dollar paid. These systems have made cars far cleaner, and enabled better performance from smaller engines. Current model cars emit 90-95% fewer pollutants than those of 20 years ago. The value of far less pollution is tangible and substantial, even if not shown on the sticker.

I'm glad you shared your opinion on the Volt, but I'd be willing to place a five-year wager with you on this. The Volt uses composite materials, new-technology batteries, freshly-designed automotive electric drive components, and a remarkable amount of computer power. Because it is a radical departure from conventional automotive design, far larger than normal amounts of engineering, design, and testing have preceded its launch, all of which are expensive. The tooling is all new - huge outlay. Every one of these items I've mentioned is subject to cost efficiency with manufacturing volume. If you differ, please tell me which ones won't go down, and why.

All that said, I have no interest in buying a first-gen Volt - too rich for my budget, and too unproven. But if you think GM hasn't researched to death how big the first gen market is, you're mistaken. How about Volt II? By then, after the price normalizes, I may be a tire-kicker. Until then I'll stick with my Saturn, which just passed 240,000 miles, and looks and drives great.

[Fumesucker]

29. Cars are not getting cheaper to the extent that computers are..

Although you make some good points I still think that computers are not a good analogy for cars, computers are dropping in price in absolute terms, you don't need to factor in constant dollars to see the drop in computer prices.

And if you take the average income in the USA then you are missing the fact the income of the wealthy has greatly outstripped the income of everyone else. The new car is not as affordable to as big a portion of the population as it was say twenty years ago because much of the population has seen a significant decrease in their purchasing power over that period of time.

I haven't given my opinion on the Volt, I don't really know enough about it to have a valid opinion, the concept of a serial hybrid with an extended range battery pack is certainly intriguing but it will be the actual driving of the car by the public that will show whether it is a good vehicle or not.

American manufacturers in general have not done particularly well with small economical cars in the past when compared with offerings from some overseas competitors, it really remains to be seen whether the domestic auto industry can produce a competitive small and economical car.

[Psephos]

31. Good points. I would like to ask if you have a link for the affordability assertion.

I have some sources that controvert that.

Meanwhile, I enjoy give-and-take discussion with people like you. :)

[JNelson6563]

40. I think the reference was new technology

moreso than cars.

Julie

[txlibdem]

37. Economies of scale

My only beef with GM is that they never plan to have worldwide production greater than 50,000 or 60,000 units. You just can't achieve economies of scale with small numbers like that. Other than that the Volt is, in my opinion, a great car and an important step toward getting off oil.

Some people are going to need the "security blanket" of the gas engine/generator (GM calls it a "genset") in the Volt. Some people such as myself are ready for an all-electric car right now. I just need them to become cheap enough to afford. But I don't blame those that feel uneasy because the oil companies have put out so much false information, so many fake "grass roots" websites that are directly or indirectly paid for by big oil and so-called think tanks sending their dark hearted pundits far and wide to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt about any option that may decrease our dependence on oil.

With all that in mind I am hopeful that series hybrid vehicles, like the Volt, will be an important part of the solution while allowing people to use their vehicle as they are used to now. The electric vehicle charging infrastructure is just starting to be built up and it will take time for it to expand enough to make everyone feel that security blanket warm and fuzzy feeling that they can safely get to wherever they are going, no matter how far. Once the electric vehicle charging infrastructure is built out there will be no need for cars like the Volt, no need for gasoline at all.

A small point on "range anxiety." I do not believe that most people are so dumb that they can't figure out how many miles they need to drive in a day. The big oil paid liars and tricksters have pounded range fears into people's head for so long, however, that the majority of Americans have been fooled into being afraid of changing off of oil. The fact is that the Nissan Leaf has a long enough range for 70% to 80% of Americans, that's over 90 million folks who could use a Nissan Leaf as their commuter car and never need to exceed its capabilities. As many as 50 million Americans could use the Nissan Leaf as their only vehicle and never have a single problem. Only those that need to drive long distances or those that want to go on a road trip at a moment's notice will actually need a Volt or other series hybrid vehicle. But so many millions of people are not yet ready to leave their mommy's apron strings and get off of oil dependence and it is these people that vehicles that work like the Volt is perfect for.

Note: The Volt joins the Fisker Karma and the Raser Technologies fleet truck as the only series hybrid vehicles planned for widespread availability. Look for more to come.

[ThomWV]

38. I agree with you, both in your title and in your message

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

5. lies, distortions and misunderstandings

Otherwise known as a typical DU post about about the eeeevil asian automakers.

[dmallind]

6. I think the Volt is just peachy but where was this complaint when much of DU

did a hatchet job on the Leaf, lying about its "lease only" battery and pretending the extreme torture test for range was the only realistic measure?

Something tells me that if it were a Ford Leaf it would be amazing and ideal.

[Schema Thing]

13. those complaints are idiotic too.

again, people are idiots.



And if I made a post praising the new 2011 Ford Explorer with it's technology that gets 30% better gas mileage, idiots would come out of the woodwork to bitch and moan and make stupid uninformed, lacking-in-any-sort-of-imagination-where-improvement-is-concerned comments about that too.

[Historic NY]

11. They need it to fail because Rush said so...and it proves the bailout was a farce.

They have no interst in improving the environmental quiality of life or of achieveing success beyond the internal combustion engine. If GM is a success they fail.

[K8-EEE]

48. ding ding ding we have a winner n/t

[still_one]

14. The biggest problem with the Volt is it is too expensive, and using electricity to recharge it

does not necessarily imply clean energy, depending on how the electricity used to recharge the battery is produced. If it is produced from Power Plants using coal or gas, it isn't necessarily cleaner

The small hybrids out today get about 50 MPG. The newer cars and smaller SUVs from MOST manufacturers, can get about 32 MPG. The Volt gets about a 40 mile range on the electric motor before the internal combustion engine kicks in, then about 35 MPG. You get much more bang for your buck with the other vehicles

No mater what argument is presented, the market will determine its success or failure

when bush ran in 2000, he went to Detroit, and ridiculed the hybrids like the Prius. He was proven wrong, the Prius and other hybrids were extremely successful, however, their costs were also much less than the Volt

[LuckyTheDog]

18. The first light bulbs were expensive, too

They also were impracticable. It made little sens for the average person to wire his/her home. It made more sense in the beginning to stick with kerosene. And yet... flash forward 50 years and the electric light was the standard.

[still_one]

19. In my view this is not the electirc light. Hybrid and electirc cars have been around for over 10

years, and this is just a variation, and in my view it is a variation of a hybrid except it will run entirely on electricity, until the battery is depleted, then it becomes a gas/electric hybrid.

It is ironic that it was GM in the 20's who helped kill mass transit in LA, and now are trying to become a solution for energy independence

[Psephos]

27. It is not a "variation of a hybrid."

It is sui generis, the first and only of its kind. It does not build on an earlier design, nor share parts and engineering refinements with one.

If you don't understand that this is a purely electric-drive vehicle, that carries its own on-board generator for range extension as needed, then you are completely missing what sets it apart.

No one from GM in the 20s is still alive, and whatever similarity there is between GM 90 years ago and GM today begins and ends with the logo. Even the name of the company has changed. The old GM is literally, legally, dead.

I opposed the bailout, and still do. But the money has been spent, and I would like to see it come home. Obama breathed life back into GM (with our money, of course), and I think you owe the experiment a bit of breathing room. Perhaps the better wording would be, you owe the hundreds of thousands of workers and retirees whose future depends on GM's success a bit of breathing room. Time will tell pretty soon if the electric light comparison is apt.

[still_one]

55. I disagree, respectfully, this isn't a purely electric driven vehicle. When the electric

battery goes out, it behaves as a hybrid

It is a heck of a lot closer to a hybrid than the Leaf, which is a pure electric vehicle

As an aside,

I was not opposed to the bailout, but I am very disappointed that GM is now looking to transfer some of their production facilities to Mexico

[TheWraith]

46. Actually, it IS cleaner even if you get electricity from coal.

A big power plant puts out less pollution per mile than you would get running a gasoline car.

And no, the Volt doesn't get 35 MPG. It gets about 100 MPG. And it's the same price as the Prius was when it debuted.

[Fuzz]

16. New things are scarey to most. Won't be perfect, nothing ever is, but

it's progress. Little at a time, most of the time. Occasionally there is an invention that jumps, but not often. People are afraid of change. It's normal. This particular 'change' has the 'stink' of Obama on it for the neanderthals of the Tea Party set. But someday it will be the norm, until something better comes along.

[blue_onyx]

20. You don't have to go to right wing sites

Just read the Volt threads on DU for the same nonsense.

[spanone]

24. the right will do nothing that would give a shred of credit to the President

[d_r]

25. wining about tax breaks

I didn't hear anyone whining about tax breaks going for toyotas and hondas. This is the "taxes are bad" crowd, who usually likes a tax break. But now they are freaking out that a tax break is going to an American care (well, not that it didn't already go to saturn vue hybrids or ford escape hybrids etc.) but now they are freaking out that an AMERICAN car will benefit from a tax break, because it will benefit UNION WORKERS. They hate America, they hate American products, they hate American workers, plain and simple. that's it.

[Populist_Prole]

30. I think repubs just don't like the fact it's produced here

By people they love to hate.

[K8-EEE]

49. creates too many well paying jobs in the US

That's un-Republican!

[Dark]

32. Thanks for the mental image of a bunch of teabaggers who are getting wet over a car.

:puke:

[KakistocracyHater]

33. I think a redesign of the car is needed-go all the way back to the carriage

the first "car", that's where the running boards came from on the cars from the 1920s thru the 1940s. The 1950s finally started moving that "step" inside of the car. I went to an auto museum: electric car with a tillage steering from 1916, then others all the way up to the EV-with it broken so it couldn't be driven; strange that the corporation did that huh?

I have an idea: make the electric car spread out like the Humvee, but slightly lower to the ground, & make it as lightweight as possible cause the batteries will add the needed heft.
& wrap-around windows, no blind spots, with new types of glass it may now be possible to FINALLY do this.

Finally, make an electric vehicle-only lane, everywhere.

[upi402]

34. Battery plant started from Obama's stimulus to employ 450

Compact Power Inc. factory in Holland, Mich. received $151 million from a stimulus program from last August to open the $303 million plant. It will produce lithium-ion cells and employ 450 people by 2013.

Obama is light years ahead of Republicans and I hope he does tons more. He needs to grab they soft, sagging necks and explain to them how to STFU and correctly sit down! Americans love that crap. Why do Republicans get such dog-loyal supporters?

[old mark]

36. The problem I have with electric cars is that to recharge the batteries, we

are still relying on fossil fuels and nuclear plants to generate electricity. I understand this is just a beginning, but we need to have more renewable and really clean sources of electricity. I am aware that the time will come, it just seems like it is coming much quicker in Europe and elsewhere than here in the conservative/stupid USA.

I recall reading several posts on a RW site on how the posters would keep their huge pickups and SUVs no matter the cost of gas, just to try to defeat any effort to change from an oil based energy system to anything else...ANY type of progress is their enemy, as is any type of intelligence or common sense.

mark

[Initech]

52. Man they are dumb. No one is making you buy a car.