Folks, please stop confusing charter schools with private schools.

[johnaries]

Definition of a charter school:

A public school operated independently of the local school board, often with a curriculum and educational philosophy different from the other schools in the system.

http://www.answers.com/topic/charter-school

•Charter schools are elementary or secondary schools in the United States that receive public money but have been freed from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools in exchange for some type of accountability for producing certain results, which are set ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_schools

•A charter school is a school affiliated with a school district but is not subject to many of the same rules and regulations as a traditional high school in hiring faculty, and designing curricula and course offerings. ...
http://www.student-loans.com/college_student_loan_terms_C.html

Question: What is the difference between a charter school and a private school?
Answer: A charter school is regulated by more government restrictions than a private school because it receives government money to operate. Private schools have more freedom to run the school however they choose because they are privately funded. While almost all private schools charge tuition, charter schools do not. Both types of schools can be accredited. However, more charter schools are accredited than private schools.
http://distancelearn.about.com/od/onlinehsfaqs/f/onlinehsfaqs5.htm

A public school operated independently of the local school board, often with a curriculum and educational philosophy different from the other schools in the system.

charter school - an experimental public school for kindergarten through grade 12; created and organized by teachers and parents and community leaders; operates independently of other schools
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Charter+schools

I don't know where the meme of "charter schools are privatiazation" is coming from, but as you can see, it's simply not true. If you need more proof, simply Google the name of any state + "charter school" and read what that state's definition is. Most of them have their own website.

Basically, since a charter school usually operates outside of the direct influence of the board of education according to the parameters set forth in the charter granted by the state, that school is freed to try new and different techniques and is basically an experiment in different educational techniques.

Failing charter schools are usually closed very quickly.

By expanding the number of charter schools in a state, that state is able to try out new and different techniques without being tied down to the usual beauracracy and also by being able to try these techniques in individual schools rather than entire districts. Therefore, if a school's techniques fail the school is closed quickly which is much more difficult for a traditional public school.

I disagree with McCain that charter schools are the "wave of the future", but I beleive they can help us find the next wave that will actually help our students and can be applied to more schools.

[prolesunited]

1. Nuance? Factually correct?

How dare you ask the Obama bashers here to be better than Fox news.

[Hannah Bell]

2. like that little list of definitions has anything to do with reality.

charter schools are conduits to funnel public money into private hands.

& it's not about "obama bashing," though you don't get that.

[johnaries]

4. How do they "funnel public money into private hands"?

Please explain. Since they are not-for-profit Public Schools how exactly do they do this?

[Hannah Bell]

7. oh, please. buy a clue or two.

For Profit Charter School Chains Make Money with Questionable Real Estate and Management Deals

Charter schools are once again receiving unwanted scrutiny. Since its inception over a decade ago, reports of academic failures, management deficiencies and financial improprieties have dogged Ohio’s charter school program.

This time, our attention is drawn to two of the for-profit companies that operate charter school franchises throughout the state.

First, White Hat Management, Ohio’s largest for-profit charter school operator, was recently sued by the governing authorities of ten of its charter schools. Click here to view the complaint...The lawsuit alleges that White Hat has abused its unfettered control of each of its charter schools by maliciously breaching its fiduciary responsibilities by failing to account for its use of public funds and by using those funds for purposes other than providing for the education of students.

Second, Imagine Schools, Inc., the nation’s largest for-profit operator of charter schools, is the subject of a new study by Policy Matters Ohio. Report author, Piet Van Lier, paints a picture of a profiteering company that uses questionable leaseback arrangements to further enhance its bottom line at the expense of its students’ educational needs.

http://blog.ohea.org/for-profit-charter-school-chains-make-money-with-questionable-real-estate-and-management-deals/

[johnaries]

14. "Buy a clue"?

First of all, most charters are not run by private management companies. Secondly, look who is sueing White Hat- THE CHARTER SCHOOLS.

The governing boards say that White Hat's interest in making a profit conflicts with the schools' goal to educate.

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2010/05/for-profit_management_company.html

And concerning Imagine Schools:

[Hannah Bell]

25. again, what *is* "the charter school"? the management corp owns the real estate,

the curriculum, hires and fires the teachers and brings in the students.

other than that, there's just a board. who evidentally has no recourse but to sue when the management corp robs them blind.

costing yet *more* taxpayer money.

there is no *charter school*. there's a board who got a charter & handed it off to a for-profit management company to run.

yes, buy a clue.

[johnaries]

37. Did you not read anything I posted? You should educate yourself

better and read the facts rather than interpreting everything the way you want.

[Hannah Bell]

38. you have no facts, just a little list of definitions: "charter schools are public schools!"

well, i guess that settles it, then.

like hell.

[johnaries]

42. As I said before, just Google any state name + charter school.

And I have already answered your posts with facts. You simply refuse to believe anything that contradicts your preconceptions.

[Hannah Bell]

73. lol. ten years to shut down ONE school in just THAT particular corrupt, fraudulent chain.

repeated violations, fraud, theft.

& you just ignore it & stick to your neat little list of definitions.

you must have missed the part about the texas law.

here's another texas story, & i happen to know someone who worked at this one:

While tugging at donors' heartstrings with success stories, the 4,400-student system is strapped with its own problems: declining enrollment, dismal academic results and a history of top-heavy spending.

Three of its schools — including the Houston Main Street campus — are on the verge of being closed for repeatedly failing to meet minimal federal standards, and the former celebrity spokesman for the Dallas campuses has turned his back on the nonprofit, advising would-be donors to find other charities to support.

Its top six executives earned a combined $880,000 in 2008, with founder Grant East topping the list with a salary of $236,000 as president emeritus, according to tax documents for that fiscal year. Grant has since retired, and is now drawing $50,000 a year, officials said. Current president Richard Marquez earns more than $190,000 a year. (KIPP charter schools co-founder Mike Feinberg, by comparison, earns a base salary of $115,000, plus a possible $35,000 in performance bonuses...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6833260.html

This one's been a cash cow for years -- & stilllllll ticking.

http://www.texanscan.org/Index.asp

[salin]

76. Many are not run by a for-profit management company - but a small nonprofit

that only operates to run the school. I have a big problem with for profit management companies - and districts have been hiring and firing such orgs for the past two decades. But to conflate all charters as assoicated with for profit management companies, and to ignore the much large number of district funded schools under for profit management, is a bit deceitful. I have never understood the district funded handing over management to for profit companies. But it has been happening for a decade or so longer than most states have had laws to allow for charter schools.

[Hannah Bell]

83. define "many".

[johnaries]

94. Try reading post #51 by prolesunited

"However, ONLY 'Wisconsin, California, Michigan, and Arizona allow for-profit corporations to manage charter schools'."

So, "many" in this case means 41 states and DC except 4.

[Hannah Bell]

117. try reading my response to proles united. a quick google shows the claim is false.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8861298&mesg_id=8862891

[TBF]

141. Hannah is right -

I've actually been to the charitable dinners in which the charter schools describe their system and ask for donations. They are heavily funded by private funds, at least the ones I know about personally. It is just another way of the wealthy culling out who they want to educate (just as private schools do select some scholarship students).

[jtuck004]

12. They have a "charter" from the state, or school system, or however

it is structured. This allows them funding from the same sources as the public school, but without some of the regulations.

[johnaries]

19. Yes, the regulations, goals, and accountability are laid out in the

charter. In some cases this can mean even more accountability, since the state has to approve the charter.

Plus, as I have pointed out previously, failing charter schools are closed quickly.

[Hannah Bell]

35. they *aren't* "closed quickly." that's a crock.

they stay open for years, robbing the public blind.

that was even a finding of the charter school lobbyists -- the reason charters don't show any better results than public schools is supposedly because the bad ones *aren't* closed down, lol.

any fucking rationalization will do, have it both ways, no problem.

and even if they *were* "closed quickly, why does anyone think that opening & closing schools & shuffling kids all over hell & gone is a good way to run an education program?

answer: no one does except hedge fund managers.

charter schools take funding from all the taxpayers, but they're not answerable to them.

[johnaries]

39. Can you support that statement? According to every State

website I've read, they are closed quickly if they do not fulfill their charter.

[Hannah Bell]

52. "every state website" -- well, there's an objective source.

Here's a chain that still has schools: Rylie Faith Family

2007:

AUDIT: DALLAS CHARTERS MISUSED STATE FUNDS; EXCLUSIVE: SCHOOLS CONTINUE TO GET TAXPAYERS’ MONEY DESPITE PROBLEMS, March 30, 2007, The Dallas Morning News (Dallas, TX)


A state audit has found rampant financial mismanagement at three family-run Dallas charter schools – including fictional renovations, imaginary travel and hundreds of thousands of dollars unaccounted for. The Texas Education Agency has forwarded its findings to the Dallas County district attorney’s office for possible prosecution. Federal regulators have also been notified.

The schools – A+ Academy in Dallas and two Inspired Visions Academy campuses in Dallas and Mesquite – were founded by Don and Karen Belknap. They have been the target of numerous state audits and investigations into allegations of nepotism, sloppy record-keeping and loose financial controls.

But they continue to receive taxpayer funding: well over $38 million in the last eight years. Charter schools are funded by tax dollars, but they are managed by private organizations and lightly regulated by the state...

DESPITE THE SCHOOLS' REGULAR TROUBLE, A+ ACADEMY AND INSPIRED VISIONS HAVE NEVER BEEN SERIOUSLY THREATENED WITH CLOSURE. STATE LAW PLACES STRICT LIMITS ON TEA'S ABILITY TO CLOSE EVEN THE WORST CHARTER SCHOOLS.

Dr. Case said that the audit’s findings should, again, not limit the schools’ ability to continue operations. “I’m confident we’ll be open again in the fall,” she said.

http://charterschoolscandals.blogspot.com/2010/07/el-paso-school-of-excellence.html


And they did. That was 2007.

But the Belnap chain of charters had trouble even before that:

Let's go back ten years. Believe it or not, it was a full decade ago that the TEA had to step in and start regulatin' charters run by the Rylie Faith Family, which was founded by Don and Karen Belknap. Here's a clip from a 2005 article about the schools (with my bolds):

"In 2000, as problems escalated at the Rylie charter schools, the state dispatched a retired public school superintendent to sort it all out. Jack Ammons found the schools $400,000 in debt and operating without a budget. Family members and friends of the founders populated the payroll. There was no coherent curriculum, and no urgency to improve.

"They were basically running a $5 million ... with just a checkbook," Dr. Ammons said. "And they were spending money like it was their own.""

http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2010/02/texas-charter-school-blazes-trail-of.html

Their troubles started BEFORE 2000.


AND THEY'RE STILL IN BUSINESS.

http://www.rylieffa.com/home


ONE LOUSY SCHOOL IN THEIR CHAIN HAS BEEN CLOSED: THIS YEAR, AFTER YEARS OF PROBLEMS. AND THE STATE DIDN'T SHUT THEM DOWN, EITHER. THEY DID IT BY "FIRING" THEIR FOUNDER (WHO'S A RELATIVE OF THE REST OF THE CONS STILL RUNNING THE PLACE).

CORRUPTION, SCANDAL AND WASTE IN TEXAS CHARTER SCHOOL, (appeared online on 7/20/2010)


The El Paso School of Excellence, an embattled Texas Charter School, has closed its doors. The failed Charter school is officially part of the Rylie Faith Family Academy Charter schools located in Dallas, Texas and operated by Karen and Don Belknap. It is worth noting that J.L. Lewis founded the El Paso School of Excellence in 2000, and is the brother of Karen Belknap.

Both schools have engaged in nepotism and suffered from questionable accounting practices and general mismanagement resulting in the placement of a TEA monitor for much of the school's ten-year existence. Dr. Jack Ammons was given the responsibility of monitoring the school and has only recently seen the need to oust the school's founder, J.L. Lewis, as Superintendent. This ouster resulted in the school's charter being surrendered back to the State of Texas, effectively closing the school.

Dr. Jack Ammons is still the acting Superintendent of the Rylie Faith Family Academies, which are not closing despite their spotty history. David Zuniga, the school accountant and business manager, will spend part of the summer closing the school and transferring records to the Rylie Faith Family Academy.

http://charterschoolscandals.blogspot.com/2010/07/el-paso-school-of-excellence.html


Yeah, right. They close em down immediately if there's the least hint of trouble.

Yah, sure.

[johnaries]

70. One example. That's all you could find?

:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

74. lol.

"STATE LAW PLACES STRICT LIMITS ON TEA'S ABILITY TO CLOSE EVEN THE WORST CHARTER SCHOOLS."

here's another. we'll start with texas & work our way across the us.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8861298&mesg_id=8862000


only 71 charters have been revoked, returned or returned since they were first legalized 15 years ago. that's <5 per year. and some of those were by decision of the owners or for massive financial failure, not oversight. like this:

Charter schools owe Texas $26M for overstated admissions numbers

The Texas Education Agency, which oversees public education in the state, is working to recover $17 million of the $26 million from nearly half of the charters now operating in Texas. TEA records show that 20 schools went out of business before the state could recover its money, leaving taxpayers holding a $9 million bag of debt.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/040608dnmetCharterMain.3a5ff8c.html

license to steal:

School operators rarely face criminal charges in fraud cases: Charters may close or repay debt; prosecution is rare

they can just close & walk away owing millions. nice scam.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/040608dnmetChartersider.3a6442b.html


oversight is practically non-existent.

"It's clear to us that the quality-control mechanisms are not in place in many states, including Texas, based not only on the mixed student achievement, but on the questionable financial and business operations that have surfaced."

As a group, charter schools in Texas are more likely to have low state ratings. Last year, 7 percent of Texas charter schools were rated "unacceptable," compared with 3 percent of traditional schools. Among schools designed for students at risk of dropping out, 17 percent of charters and 7 percent of traditional schools were rated "unacceptable."

Charter schools are... exempt from many laws that govern traditional public campuses. For instance, charter schools do not have to hire certified teachers.

http://offthekuff.com/wp/?p=29843.

[johnaries]

78. How about an actual National report from 2006?

http://www.edreform.com/_upload/closures.pdf

It lists all of the closures since the program first started by state and the reasons for closure.

[Hannah Bell]

82. what is the "center for educational reform"?

why, it's an astroturf charter propaganda org.

funded by the right wing lynne & harry bradley foundation & other ed deformers:

In addition to Heritage and AEI, Bradley funds a number of right-wing think tanks that are working to institute vouchers, tuition tax credits and other proposals that would funnel public money to private schools. This includes the Center for Education Reform, the Heartland Institute, the Claremont Institute and the Free Congress Foundation.

http://susanohanian.org/show_research.php?id=34


what a surprise.

chris whittle (edison schools, for-profit) is on their board, along with more of the usual suspects.


The purpose of this Web site is to provide the public with a source of independently collected information about U.S. charter schools.

For instance, compare what you learn from my entry for the 3,500 student CATO School of Reason to the content provided by the pro-charter Center for Education Reform in their compilation: "Closed Charter Schools by State: National Data 2009" (63 page pdf).

In the CER's document, the reason given for closure is "Management." The explanation is "Inadequate record keeping, suspect relations with private and sectarian schools."

Well, the story is much, much bigger than this, and, if you read my entry for the charter school, you'll have a greater sense of the truth.

http://charterschoolscandals.blogspot.com/2010/07/el-paso-school-of-excellence.html


yep, it was "management" all righty:

The Cato School of Reason, once one of the state’s largest public charter schools, abruptly shut its doors last week in the wake of evidence that it had used student rosters of Los Angeles–area private schools to claim millions of dollars in public-school funding. In the process, Cato "engaged in fraud and misrepresentation," according to documents released last week by investigators.

Federal agents are now reviewing Cato’s practices for criminal violations, according to sources in contact with the FBI. Targets of the review include Cato founder Tom Cosgrove and retired Congressman Mervyn Dymally, who was paid to spearhead Cosgrove’s private-school recruitment effort across the L.A. basin.

http://charterschoolscandals.blogspot.com/2010/05/cato-school-of-reason.html


massive fucking fraud, everywhere you look in the charter school world, from the astroturf 501(c)(3)'s masquerading as some kind of neutral education org to the phoney-baloney test scores to the bullshit reports about 100% of a class going to college.

they're all fucking lies.


WHY is obama enacting the education program of what used to be called "the john birch right?"

i really want to know.

[jwirr]

3. Here in MN at least some of the charter schools are for Native

American students who want an emphasis on their history. I know of one that emphasized music and the one my daughter graduated from was created to help children who had dropped out of the system drop back in. My daughter was in a district that was very wealthy - raised by an old hippy. She could not stand the materialism in the regular school and the charter school picked her up and helped her cope. If they are trying to privatize them that is what I object to not the schools.

[johnaries]

5. No, no one is trying to privatize them. People are claiming that

charter schools themselves are private schools. That is the misconception I am trying to claer up.

[Hannah Bell]

8. it's no misconception. but you just keep "trying"

[johnaries]

17. I've already proven it is. nt

[YvonneCa]

30. Could you post that again, please? n/t

[johnaries]

41. Please read the OP.

[Hannah Bell]

54. it's a list of definitions. could you please paste the part which "proves" anything at all?

sorry, i don't consider a definition from "bullshit.com" proof of anything.

[Hannah Bell]

36. with your litlle list of definitions? sure you have.

[johnaries]

44. See post #42.

[Hannah Bell]

85. post 42?

"42. As I said before, just Google any state name + charter school.
And I have already answered your posts with facts. You simply refuse to believe anything that contradicts your preconceptions."


YOU MEAN YOUR LITTLE LIST OF DEFINITIONS & YOUR CHARTER PROPAGANDA WEBSITE FUNDED BY FAR-RIGHT-WING BILLIONAIRES?

That's your definition of "fact??

These are the folks funding your "center for education reform"

In the early 1990s the foundation helped support The American Spectator, which at the time was researching damaging material on President Bill Clinton. In the March 1992 issue of the magazine, David Brock called Anita Hill "a bit nutty and a bit slutty", and in January, 1994, it published Brock's article regarding Troopergate and Clinton's alleged extramarital affairs. David Brock later recanted both articles.

The Bradley Foundation has provided funding for the Project for a New American Century (PNAC). PNAC brought together prominent members of the (George W) Bush Administration (Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz) in the late 1990s to articulate their neoconservative foreign policy, including sending a letter to President Bill Clinton urging him to invade Iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Foundation


"john birch right"

[madfloridian]

10. They get public money but don't answer to the public.

They are run by EMOs or CMOs who are not regulated.

Now that many private schools are getting public money through vouchers....it will be hard to tell the difference.

[johnaries]

16. Yes, they are accountable to the public through their charter.

And for the record, I am against vouchers. The voucher program is what we SHOULD be targeting, not charter schools.

Charter schools do not charge tuition.

[madfloridian]

23. I am targeting schools that get public money but are not regulated.

You are not correct about charters answering to the public. They simply do not have to do so.

[johnaries]

Their charter has to be approved by the state. This should

include accountability. If the state did not insist upon accountablity in the charter, it is the fault of the state.

[madfloridian]

84. Not always true.

Some charters are accepted by local districts. Then when the charter operators won't listen to them...they find out who has the power.

[Hannah Bell]

92. baloney. you don't even know basic facts. states aren't the only entities which can issue charters

Chartering authorizers, entities that may legally issue charters, differ from state to state, as do the bodies that are legally entitled to apply for and operate under such charters.

In some states, like Arkansas, the State Board of Education authorizes charters.

In other states, like Maryland, only the local school district may issue charters.

States including Arizona and the District of Columbia have created iINDEPENDENT CHARTER-AUTHORIZING BODIES (run by bill gates clones) to which applicants may apply for a charter.

The laws that permit the most charter development, as seen in Minnesota and Michigan, allow for A COMBINATION of such authorizers.<16>

Charter applicants may include local school districts, institutions of higher education, non-profit corporations, and, IN SOME STATES, FOR PROFIT CORPORATIONS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school#Chartering_authorities

[laughingliberal]

27. I'm targeting everything that has been diverting funding from our public school system...

which is required to take all children and not allowed to pick and choose. Anything that is diverting public funds into private hands is open to profiteering. We need to adequately fund our public school system and stop with the privatization schemes. IOW, let's send St Ronnie and his ideas back to the Republican party from whence they came.

[johnaries]

34. The vast majority do not "pick and choose", they are either

"first come first serve" or work via a lottery. This is another common misconception.

[laughingliberal]

43. They are not, as are the public schools, required to take any and all. Most will plead...

lack of resources for disabled students, too. It is NOT a level playing field. It's just another privatization scheme dressed up as something else. I never found anything I agreed with Newt Gingrich on and this is no different.

[johnaries]

50. Please read

http://www.howtodothings.com/education/a4471-how-to-enroll-in-a-charter-school.html

Charter schools are typically considered a part of a public school system in a particular district and state. Because of this, charter schools are subject to all laws governing any public school, including civil rights and federal special education laws. Enrolling your child in a charter school generally involves several steps.
.....

•Open Enrollment-If you are considering enrolling your child in a charter school, you should pay close attention to any deadlines regarding that school's open enrollment policy. An open enrollment simply implies that all children have equal opportunity to enroll in that particular school. Open enrollments may be offered in the spring for the next academic year or they may be offered at the beginning of a new school year.
•Lottery Selection-Keep in mind that just because you have enrolled your child during open enrollment doesn't mean your child is automatically accepted into that school. Many charter schools' applicants far outnumber the available spots on the school's roster. In that case, charter schools often hold a lottery. A lottery is usually open to the public. During the lottery, names are randomly drawn from the overabundance of applicants, and those children are then admitted to the school based on their number in the selection process and the available space. All of the names in a lottery are typically drawn, even though there may not be enough spots to accommodate everyone. In that case, those names are placed on a waiting list, and they will be called in number order as vacancies occur.

[laughingliberal]

53. I've seen cases where the charter admitted a disabled student and the district had to pay for

any special aides or accommodations the student needed. How cool is that? The money allocated for the student went to the charter but the district picks up the tab for anything extra the student might need.

As I said, I've yet to find myself in agreement with Newt Gingrich on any issue and this is no different.

[johnaries]

64. The district would have had to pay for it, regardless.

And I prefer to judge any program on it's own merits, not who is for or against it.

[Hannah Bell]

121. you don't get it. and yes, your objectivity shines in your posts here.

[dsc]

56. they may be open enrollment

but they are allowed to impose rules on both students and parents that public schools can't. For example, they can mandate that parents come to parent teacher conferences. They can expell students who refuse to comply with school directives much faster than we can, and we have to take them after they have been expelled from the charter. Charter schools can expell students for having been arrested, we can't. In short, they can select after the fact which is nearly as good as selecting before the fact.

[madfloridian]

45. And they send the low-performing back to the public schools.

to lower the test scores for them. Eva Moskowitz of Harlem Success schools is said to make life miserable for parents and students who don't perform well. They have methods that wear the parents out until they move the kids out.

[Hannah Bell]

88. bullshit. if they don't want disabled kids, they JUST DON'T PROVIDE DISABLED SERVICES.

Then they can say, "oh, we don't have that here, your little johnny would do better in the public school".

same with esl.

THAT'S JUST ONE WAY THEY EXCLUDE KIDS THEY DON'T WANT "FAIRLY".

I mean, who could argue, they just don't have those services...

There are dozens more ways they get rid of kids they don't want, or never accept them in the first place.

[Hannah Bell]

87. no they're not. charters draw tax revenue from an entire district but they have no

accountability whatsoever to the taxpayers of the district. none.

random taxpayers can't drop in & observe their classes. not at all. they have absolutely no avenue to comment on a charter's policies WHATSOEVER -- unless they have a kid in that school.

bile shiot.

[johnaries]

98. Did you read the report I linked to? Simply yelling something

doesn't make it true.

[Hannah Bell]

122. neither does propaganda funded by the john birch right.

[noamnety]

68. Your blanket statement is false.

"They are run by EMOs or CMOs who are not regulated."

That is incorrect for the same reason that "Dogs are all basset hounds" is incorrect. I'd love to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you were probably misinformed, but I know you've been corrected on that over and over again.

[Whisp]

106. it goes further. Obama is pocketing cash from his corporate friends

they have this secret deal to sell the blood of students and of course Obama is the head cheese in the ruse and will make the most money to keep in his secret off shore account because we all know that Obama hates kids and a good education.

:eyes:

[dflprincess]

65. One of the Native American Charter Schools, Heart of the Earth,

which had been around as an alternative school since the 70s and became a charter in 1999
had to close after a director stole $1.4 million from the school. Theft like that is a lot harder to pull from a traditional public school.

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2010/07/joel_pourier_ad.php

[Curmudgeoness]

6. Charter schools are allowed to exist outside the school board

jurisdiction, they are able to do more experimentation with techniques and curriculum. This is a problem to me. Little oversight into what they are doing and whether it is working. Why don't we free public schools from some of the regulations that dictate every step? Teachers are trained to teach. They are professionals. Let them have a little freedom in their own classrooms. You argument sounds to me like the problem with schools is the school board.

[jwirr]

9. I would be glad to see classrooms with more freedom but if you look

at my above post that would not have solved the needs of these cases.

[sandnsea]

20. Charters do free schools from regulations

Having "little oversight" is exactly what being free of regulations means.

And if the charter schools do better because they're free of regulations, then why don't public schools use that data to advocate that change in their local public school.

[laughingliberal]

31. All schools could do better if they could cherry pick their students.

But that's not public education.

[Curmudgeoness]

33. This is exactly what I was saying. Make public schools less

regulated and let the techniques that work work.

[sandnsea]

80. That's what charters do

Test "what works". Sometimes local principals and teachers don't want to do anything different, even though half the school is failing. Any primary school that has 4-5 teachers per grade knows that there are better teachers than others. Why wouldn't we try to implement the better strategies across the board?

Let the techniques that that work work? And what about the kids in the classrooms with teachers using bad techniques?

[johnaries]

103. EXACTLY! Thank you! Find out what works for the STUDENTS.

[Hannah Bell]

123. lol. 5 national studies show charters have no advantages over traditional public schools.

except they're more segregated by race & income.

i guess that's an advantage to some.

[Odin2005]

11. The problem isn't charter schools in an of themselves, it's one promoted by...

...people with right-wing Corporatist agendas. They are being used as a way to undermine public education.

[Orsino]

13. And the greatest confusion of all...

...is that which conceals this agenda.

I don't mind talking about the distinction, as long as the discussion acknowledges the common disease.

[Scruffy1]

15. This is simply right wing propganda to me

Charter schools have become a way to siphon money from public education. They didn't start that way, but that is how they ended up. My youngest son went to a charter school that was later closed after one of the staff embezzled over a million bucks. Talk about oversight. There isn't any. In some places they are even getting the government to loan them money to buy property which is a real highway to hell in that it multiplies the chances for fraud many fold. Having been a teacher and been around when this movement started I have seen it come full circle over thirty years. Education is not a business and trying to make it one will never work.

[johnaries]

24. RW propaganda isn't backed up with facts.

There are always a few anecdotal stories of corruption. That doesn't mean we should braodbrush the entire program.

And this has nothing to do with making education a business. I am opposed to that concept. This is about trying new and different techniques since the old ones are obviously failing.

[Hannah Bell]

90. The "right wing propaganda" is all the cheery stories about how great charters are.

Look at who's funding the movement.

John Birch right (Bradley) + corporatist "left" (Gates)

[MadHound]

18. It's very, very simple

Regardless of whether a charter school receives public money or not, it is a school, owned by a private entity or individual. It isn't owned by the local government or other such community entity. Therefore, it is a private school.

And frankly, since it has been shown that charter schools do no better than public schools in educating out children, they really can't help us "find" anything. All they do is suck up money to the private sector, away from our already desperate for money public schools.

[johnaries]

26. Actually, it is owned by the local government. And if they fail,

then we have learned something.

[MadHound]

32. A charter school is NOT owned by the local government

Please, get that through your head. A charter school is owned, either by a corporate entity or by an individual. Therefore, by definition, it is a private school.

And according to all studies that I've seen (and that you can see too if you care to educate yourself) charter schools are no better than public schools. Worse yet, they are sucking public money, from public schools, right into the pockets of a private corporation or individual.

[johnaries]

47. Please read my links upthread. They are NOT privately owned.

Whether they are any better than regular public schools, that depends upon the charter school. But that is the purpose, charter schools can try different techniques - if they fail, the charter is closed. If they succeed, they can help "regular" public schools.

[MadHound]

49. I don't have to read your links, I've read actual charters for charter schools

And there are two entities making a deal. One is the local governing board, the other is a private entity made up of an individual or a corporation.

And public schools try different techniques all the time, or haven't you been paying attention in school. As a teacher I see new things to try all the time.

What, was your experience in public school so bad that you want to close them all?

[johnaries]

57. Well if you want to get personal I can share my experience.

I took every available AP class at my public school - BOTH of them. I scored in the 97% percentile on my PSAT's and a 30 on my ACT. When I got to college, I felt I was at a disadvantage compared to others who had attended a PUBLIC magnet school in my own district. I had a few really outstanding teachers who changed my life. But I also had some that were really terrible. This was back in the 60's and 70's. So, the public schools I attended were certainly not terrible but they was great rom for improvement, even back then.

And as I have posted before, the "private entity" is usually non-profit.

And, no, I DON'T want to see public schools closed - I just want them to be the best that they can be. Personally, I think teachers should be paid a lot more.

[rucky]

99. They are most certainly not.

[prolesunited]

51. How about reading this

"While charter schools provide an alternative to other public schools, they are part of the public education system and are not allowed to charge tuition. Where enrollment in a charter school is over subscribed, admission is frequently allocated by lottery-based admissions.

"Some charter schools are founded by teachers, parents, or activists who feel restricted by traditional public schools.<4> State-authorized charters (schools not chartered by local school districts) are often established by non-profit groups, universities, and some government entities.

However "Additionally, school districts sometimes permit corporations to manage chains of charter schools. The schools themselves are still non-profit, in the same way that public schools may be managed by a for-profit corporation."

And they are not some corporatist plot. Look at the start:
"The charter school idea in the United States was originated by Ray Budde,<7> a professor at the University of Massachusetts Amherst and embraced by Albert Shanker, President of the American Federation of Teachers, in 1988 when he called for the reform of the public schools by establishing "charter schools" or "schools of choice".

"As of 2009, 41 states and the District of Columbia have charter school laws."
However, ONLY "Wisconsin, California, Michigan, and Arizona allow for-profit corporations to manage charter schools."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school


Think of venn diagrams. Most are run by public entities with a small subset run by corporations. There *IS* a difference between charter and private schools no matter how much you put your fingers in your ears and yet lalalala.

[johnaries]

58. Thank you.

[laughingliberal]

60. There also *IS* a difference between charters and the public school system & they divert funds. nt

[Hannah Bell]

93. Al shanker was a corporate stooge. he played the ralph nader role in the ed union divide & rule

battles.

[MadHound]

105. Oh, my dear, you've got me. The dreaded wiki copy and paste. The horror.

Look sport, have you ever read a charter school charter? I have, and these "teachers, parents, or activists who feel restricted by traditional public schools" are far from the benign, benevolent do-gooders that they put out for PR purposes. For instance, let's take a look at California Charter Academy run into the ground, not by a parent, activist or teacher, no, but by a former insurance agent sucking up millions in tax revenue to line his own pockets.

And then there is White Hat management, which runs for profit charter schools in six states, with our tax money, 84 million in Ohio alone. Still think these are benevolent entities?
<http://oh.aft.org/016990/index.cfm?action=article&articleID=4f1f04e7-4fa9-464e-992c-8657d6c46322>

Oh, and answer me this. Why has the charter school funding industry now reached investment grade credit ratings status? Such a status implies profit for somebody along the chain, in this case through tax exempt financing bonds. Woohoo, they take our taxpayer dollars coming and going:woohoo:

Sorry, but charter schools are nothing more, or less, than privatized education, despite the propaganda you read, despite the cutesy language that is used. It is all there in black and white, go read, go educate yourself.

[Whisp]

108. no tuition, no religious affilation nor selective admission.

sounds so horrible.

:eyes:

[yurbud]

112. charging tuition is not the issue: it's giving private companies tax money to educate our kids

[Hannah Bell]

116. ONLY "WI, CA, MI, and AZ allow for-profit corporations to manage charter schools" = false

According to a report by the Center for Public Education, for-profit education management organizations run about 16 percent of charter schools and are behind the growth in "virtual" charter schools, which operate online. For-profit EMOs have increased the number of virtual charter schools they run from 13 in the 2003-2004 school year to 50 in 2008-2009.

http://education.nationaljournal.com/2010/05/forprofit-companies-and.php


Imagine Schools, Inc., is the nation’s largest for-profit charter school management company, with 71 schools nationwide and 11 in Ohio.

Ohio charters are granted only to non-profit organizations, but fully a third of the state’s more than 300 non-profit, tax-payer funded charter schools are run by for-profit management companies, many of them out-of-state operators like Imagine Schools, Inc.

http://www.policymattersohio.org/ImagineSchools.htm


Imagine has yet to receive the nonprofit status it has sought from the IRS since 2005, and school officials in Texas, Georgia, Nevada and Indiana — as well as Alachua, Indian River and Palm Beach counties in Florida — have challenged the company's applications.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/as-st-petersburg-school-founders-districts-question-imagine-schools-status/1093760.


Imagine runs schools across the country: They haven't been able to get a non-profit designation because they're FOR-PROFIT. Yet somehow they're running schools in states you say don't allow for-profit management.

http://www.imagineschools.com/school-profile.aspx


Other states you say don't allow for-profit management:

NY

While about 40 percent of all NYC charter schools are independent schools, the rest choose to enter into a contract with either an EMO or CMO for management services. Typically, these contracts stipulate the services that the management organization will provide in exchange for a fee, which is calculated as a percentage of the per-pupil funding that a school receives. Most schools that choose to have a management organization have a CMO. The rest, about 10 percent, use a for-profit company, generally Victory Schools, which dominates the market in New York City—operating 7 of the 9 EMO charters open in 2008-2009.In 2008-2009, Harbor Sciences and Arts Charter School, a CMO school, and Peninsula Preparatory Academy, an EMO school, paid the most—23% of per pupil funding—for management services.

http://curious2.typepad.com/curious2/2010/02/charter-school-management-fees.html.

PA:

K12 Pennsylvania is a subsidiary of K12 Inc., a for-profit company in Herndon, Va.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/education/20100726_Agora_Cyber_Charter_School_approved_for_five_more_years.html.

FLA:

One of the first players to jump into the foray of for-profit EMO’s in the quickly transforming charter school climate in Florida, was Academica, Inc., a private corporation founded by entrepreneur and attorney, Fernando Zulueta. Originated in 1999, Academica’s website describes itself as: Academica is one of the nation’s longest-serving and most successful charter school service and support organizations...

Now, thanks to the politicians in Florida and the first steps made by Zulueta, the recent passage of a new Florida law in 2004 allows housing developers to steer impact fees that would otherwise have gone to school districts to charter schools in their own housing developments.

http://dailycensored.com/2010/02/03/the-for-profit-educational-maintenance-organization-academica-inc/

TX:

DALLAS — A proposal to invest up to $100 million of Texas Permanent School Fund money in charter schools is still alive, even though the Texas Education Agency sidelined the idea in a meeting Thursday.

Charter school operators include for-profit and nonprofit corporations. Some schools are started by educators or school districts, while others can be created by groups of parents. All have to be chartered by the TEA to receive state funding.

http://www.bondbuyer.com/issues/119_389/texas_charter_school_PSF-1015121-1.html


AND THERE ARE MANY MORE STATES WHICH ALLOW FOR-PROFIT CHARTER MANAGEMENT.

You don't even have the facts straight.

[fishwax]

118. Where are you getting the "only" from?

However, ONLY "Wisconsin, California, Michigan, and Arizona allow for-profit corporations to manage charter schools."

Just because the wikipedia entry specifically lists those four doesn't mean that those are the *only* states that allow it. National Heritage Academies, for example, is a for-profit EMO that has schools in eight different states: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Heritage_Academies.

[Hannah Bell]

124. thank you. for-profits are in way more than the four states listed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. So are your fingers in your ears or are you willfully ignoring the facts about Shanker?

He disapproved of how charters were operating and was adamantly opposed to them at the time of his death.

Pesky little facts. :eyes:

[Chan790]

21. The very nature and cause of the opposition is in your OP.

People object to taking funds out of the public school budget and giving it to private, not-accountable institutions to provide education thus reducing the amount of funds in the system to educate students in the public schools. I oppose charter education. Viciously. My second job out of college was in an education NPO. While I have serious issues with the manner in which public education is run, I know the answer is NOT charter education.*

I am a graduate of a private school, a rather prestigious one where I went on partial-scholarship and paid the remainder my own way (or my parents did, more precisely). In addition, they also paid taxes which were used to fund the public schools. Not one cent of my education was borne by the taxpayer, nor did my non-attendance of local public schools take one red cent out of the public school budget. In fact, the same-sized school budget stretched to cover one fewer student (actually I'm the oldest of 4, 3 private educated...so 3 fewer students, in reality) means more $$$ per student in the public schools. I strongly support private and parochial education for anybody who can attend without taking money out of the public school system. I believe in it thoroughly enough that I donate to my alma mater enough to fully-find the education of at least one student a year, despite not being a wealthy person. (I'm a bank teller and P/T grad student in NPO management.) I view it as an investment in both my private school (directly) and my local school district (through offset)

*- Honestly, if you care, I think it's greater individualization and class choice combined with de-equivilization; all within the same school system, not separate schools. Not every student needs the same thing out of their education...I'd be far better off today if I'd taken less English and more theoretical classes as I was reading 5 grade levels ahead of my peers throughout my formal education anyways. I honestly never use math beyond basic arithmetic but recognize a lack in my education because I never took anatomy because I was required into pre-calc the same period of the day anatomy was offered. Individualization and better needs-assessment are the solution IMO.

[johnaries]

29. Your very first sentence is completely erroneous.

AS I pointed out, charter schools are NOT private schools and they ARE accountable via their charter that is approved by the state.

[Chan790]

48. And as several people pointed out, you're wrong.

Most have zero accountability and merely siphon money off the system. Even on the rare occasion one fails, it costs the taxpayers even more money (and usually lawsuits) to yank the charter. There is no public oversight to speak of.

What would I know about the subject...oh wait, I used to work in this field. I used to have to put on the shirt and tie and go to court and testify about how badly the charter schools were failing in Hartford CT, talk about how the law denied us any meaningful manner in which to assess them and how they were churning out high GPA morons that couldn't tie their own shoes or write a passable college admissions essay. (This is why GPAs, assessment tests and graduation rates make poor metrics BTW. They educate minimally to the assessment and we can't do anything about it. I literally know of one school that taught #1 is A, #2 is B, 3# is B,...and that wasn't grounds to revoke charter.) We were a literacy organization...most of these kids were low-literate and the money to educate them was wasted. Any idea how expensive it is to have to educate someone twice?

You're out of your element. Do you argue super-string theory with theoretical physicists too?

[johnaries]

61. So, your extensive experience in one city allows you to broad-

brush for the entire nation? I'm sorry the laws were so fucked-up in Hartford.

[noamnety]

77. From your own background and where you donate

it sounds like you acknowledge that for some students, including yourself, a traditional education in the school where they were assigned based on where they live is not the best education for them.

And from your philosophy, it sounds like you think students from poor students who can't afford better should be trapped in the one school they are assigned to, without other choices.

Sure, some benevolent donors might sponsor a student, but as far as having the right to any sort of alternative education, it sounds like you oppose that.

I'm also guessing you'll disagree with my assessments - I hope you do, because the two positions are difficult for me to reconcile, so I hope I missed something. On the surface it looks like one education system with no choices for the poorest students, and another system for the more fortunate who have surplus money they can spend on private education. And it sounds like you oppose an alternative that's free. It sounds very classist, I'm hoping you can clear that up and explain what would have been the best education for you if you hadn't gotten a scholarship and been able to afford the rest of the tuition.

[johnaries]

101. I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

" a traditional education in the school where they were assigned based on where they live is not the best education for them."

Yes, I can agree with that. I would like to see all students be able to receive a good education in their local area, but that is simply not always practical. Students learn in different ways and at different levels in different areas.


" it sounds like you think students from poor students who can't afford better should be trapped in the one school they are assigned to, without other choices."

NO. I think all students should receive the best education regardless of financial status or geographic location.


" but as far as having the right to any sort of alternative education, it sounds like you oppose that."

Exactly the opposite, I think that every student has the RIGHT to an education that fits their learning needs.

That's why I oppose private school vouchers. Vouchers do not cover all private school expenses, and basically subsidizes the education of the rich at the expense of the poor.

I strongly support public education. But I do not believe that "one size fits all". I would love to see options available within each local public school, but that simply isn't feasible. Public Charter schools may or may not be the answer, but I believe that they are an experiment worth exploring.

[noamnety]

104. I was asking Chan - I understood where you were coming from!

I was responding to Chan, because he opted out of the public school system and was in a position to be able to afford it, and he was saying that he supports alternative education for other students who can afford it privately.

I don't know where he thinks that leaves poor students who can't afford any alternatives, and whether he thinks that's equitable.

[Chan790]

111. Interesting...

I spend two hours writing a long rambling sleep-depriving response to come back and discover we're not that far apart except that I want to abolish the charters and shove the charter-academies back under the control of the school board. I also think we should gut standardized assessment testing as a metric of schools beyond a certain point but other than that we seem to be closer than expected.

Good night.

[Chan790]

110. I think I wasn't really clear b/c I was trying to not write a 15pg. essay on my ideal edu. model.

It seemed to be way too tangential to the topic of the thread so I'm glad you asked these questions. I guess the best most-concise answer is that I favor broader school choice in public education (and by necessity within much-larger school-choice regions than the current size of school districts) and I think the multi-variable loose specialized-academy model represented by charter schools is a potentially great one minus the charters themselves. All the public education academies should be run by the school board, subject to the union contract and teacher certification and directly accountable in the traditional sense (to the municipality, the state, the taxpayers, the parents, and standards of basic minimal educational attainment in core competencies) but also to the students themselves. They get lost in all this, but if it's not being done for them...I'm not sure what the point is. I'm not so big on rigid-standardization and I don't think "One size fits all" fits anybody well. You could say I support the antithesis of NCLB and the idiocy being peddled by Arne Duncan, I wouldn't debate either assertion.

Ideally, I'd like to see HS level education run more like college with more student input on what they want to study (and conversely what they just don't care about.) and focus on as long as basic educational needs are being met, with a narrower but multi-approach methodology being applied to lower grade levels (because no 3rd grader has a realistic idea who they are or what they want to work towards. I wanted to be a janitor because Janitor Dave got summers off. I'm glad now that as an 8 year old I didn't have a say in my educational road-map.) I'd like to see a more-individualized student-needs-focused assessment of achievement. (The question is currently "Is this school measuring-up?", it needs to be "Is this the right educational approach for this student?" If not, educators need to be free to think outside the box, students need to be free to go find the right approach for them.) I'd like to see teachers freed up to teach again and students freed up to be stakeholders and have a say in their own educational process. Like I said before, not everybody needs the same education. Reality is that not every student is focused on the same goals or needs and wants to go the same places and public educations should embrace that. Too many people go to college to do too many jobs that shouldn't really require college and there is nothing undignified about being a plumber or auto mechanic or short-order cook if that's what your bliss is. (My younger brother has a 6-year degree from LaSalle and all he ever wanted post-graduation was to be a bartender. He happens to be one of the best in all of Philly.) Education should prepare you for the life you want and provide the basic skills to allow you to succeed if you change your mind and decide to do something else. Beyond a certain point, all education is modular anyways. Learning is life-long.

I think having technical schools, schools that emphasize classical subjects (logic, rhetoric, Latin, poetry, civics, philosophy, etc.), schools that teach using a hands-on methodology or the scientific-inquiry approach, or more book-learning or less book-learning or more humanities/arts education or the Platonic model (lots of philosophy, gym and anatomy) or stressing the traditional educational model are all the right approach because they're all right for some students and provide an channel to get them where they need to be while engaging them.

You asked about my private schooling...I support merit-based scholarships for a student from the neighborhood I grew up in which is one of the poorer in Hartford, an Irish-Catholic ghetto in the South End. I don't think it's a better school, just a better approach for me and for some people. It's a parochial school. If that's not your thing, it isn't going to be the right fit. In reality, if my interests had run more towards science or technology, my alma mater would have been an awful choice...Hartford Public has much newer computers and better science equipment. My HS algebra textbook still referenced slide rules in 1997 for Christ-sakes. (At this point, I feel required to point out that I came within 3 weeks of becoming a Catholic priest and am now an atheist. Both that decision and my schooling decision were the right choice...for me.)

I'm tired and feel like I've been rambling for 2 hours so I hope it's coherent but think it may not be. Feel free to ask any other questions...I might not get back it until tomorrow evening though.

[joeybee12]

22. Nice try at muddying the issue, but we're too smart here...

pass that along to your friends...whoever you're working for.

[johnaries]

40. Are you accusing me of something?

I am trying to clarify an issue that many others have muddied via their own misconceptions.

[laughingliberal]

62. Most of us are pretty clear that 30 years of underfunding hurt the public school system

and we're looking at the selling of another Reagan/Gingrich style scheme to a gullible public rather than adequately funding a vital public service.

[johnaries]

67. I'll agree about the underfunding. But charter schools ARE

public schools. That is my whole point. Whether they prove to be better than "regular" public schools is yet to be seen. If so, then the public schools can learn from charter schools. For those that fail, then they don't affect the entire district and the other public schools know better what to avoid.

[laughingliberal]

69. Restore the funding to the public school system and quit pursuing Reagan/Gingrich style schemes

Not one damned, "government can't do anything right," Reagan scheme has resulted in anything other than robbing the American people of their tax dollars to benefit the few at the expense of the many. NOT ONE. This is no different. I am sorry our President seems to have become enamored of this RW style program but he's a little younger than I and may not remember when our school system was funded and, actually, worked. Or he may be beholding to various donors. Whatever the reason, he's wrong on this.

[YvonneCa]

28. The problem is not the way they are defined. The problem is...

...that their funding diminishes other funding. And the emphasis on charters being the 'magic bullet' also diminishes differences and accomplishments between traditional and charter schools.

If they become the 'wave of the future' what will they leave behind?

[asdjrocky]

46. Thanks for enlightening us all.

I assume you work in a school system, are some kind of an administrator or have some official capacity in deciding charter, public or privet school policy?

I'm so happy that an expert such as yourself is here to end the terrible confusion that has endlessly plagued this discussion board. There seems to be a bunch of these teacher types, and you know how they can be, around they have been very confused. I keep reading posts that tell a far different story than the one you are telling here, but again, those are just teachers.

I'm sure most of them will be along any moment now to thank you for a deed well done.

Thank you again, you're my hero.

[LWolf]

55. I'm not the least bit confused, I don't need any patronizing "explanations"

of something I've been well-informed about since the charter school movement began, and your belief in privatization and union busting as "the next wave" that can be "applied to more schools" sickens me.

Charter schools are public schools in the same way that The Healthy Forest Restoration Act is about healthy forests, or NCLB was about actually improving public education.

They get to use the word "public" because it's in the laws allowing them to be formed.

That means that privately run entities get to use public money, and call themselves public, while bypassing most of the public oversight that schools actually within the public education system are protected with.

That is a corrupt use of the label "public," and a highly inappropriate use of public funds.

It's also a tool in the efforts to further degrade REAL public schools and teachers, to privatize and union bust.

[johnaries]

63. You are twisting my words. I am AGAINST privatization and

I specifically said I do NOT believe charter schools are "the next wave".

I believe that charter schools may be a useful tool to help ALL public schools.

Regardless, my original statement was that charter schools are NOT private schools. Whether they actually have merit or not is another argument, entirely.

I am AGAINST privatization of schools, which is why I don't want us chasing red herrings. The voucher program is what we should all be opposing.

[laughingliberal]

71. We should be opposing anything other than restoring full and adequate funding to our...

public school system. Go back to where it started failing and you find it was when funding was cut. This was not an accident. It was part of the starve the beast plan that started with Reagan. Restore the funding. Everything else is buying into the Reagan propaganda. Period.

[LWolf]

128. Charter schools help ALL public schools by....

reducing their funding...or....what?

Charters ARE a privatization tool.

Ignorance is no excuse.

[DebJ]

89. 'union busting',,,yep, that is the big key

[rurallib]

59. I am an old guy. Charter schools remind me of things like the Arizona

immigration law. On paper it says that race can't be used. But in practice we all know better.
Same kind of thing here. Lots of nice language to wrap up the semi-privatization of education.

[laughingliberal]

79. Yes. Reading between the lines seems to be a lost art among large segments of the population...

along with anticipation of unintended consequences.

[MichiganVote]

66. Different techniques ARE implemented in individual public schools every year.

A few other truths...

No schools are closed due to a school's failing teaching techniques. Charter schools are closed when they are very poorly run, when student achievement is not measured and progressive and when the sponsoring agency does not reinstate its charter.

Public schools, including charters, are required to use research based teaching techniques. That is the law. There are no experimental teaching techniques in any of the public school settings.

Failing charter schools are not closed quickly. They are mandated to supply data that supports student achievement over a 3 to 5 year period.

Charter schools are not locally driven by the community. Standard public schools are. And there in lies the rub and the risk for students.

[madrchsod]

72. nice try....but must people don`t buy it.

[johnaries]

96. If you tell a lie enough times, "most people" will believe it.

I'm trying to interject some facts.

[Pithlet]

75. Nope. Not confused. But thanks.

No, they aren't private schools. But that doesn't mean that a lot of the criticism against them isn't valid. I'm not at all convinced that the benefits outweigh those criticisms. It may not be an outright move to privitiazation, but there is still profit motive by the corporations involved that I find concerning to say the least. The concerns about religious ciriuculum are valid as well. Yes, the usual beaurocracy may be a hassle, but it's there for a reason. Oh, great, the charter school's techniques fail and they close. Well, great! I'm sure that's no big deal for the community it was serving and the kids that went to that school, huh? I don't know, I just think that we should be focusing on making our public education system, with our unionized teachers, stronger and better. I support our traditional public schools and I'm not ready to give up on them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Nice try

[DebJ]

86. "independent of school board"?? not in York Pa, where

City school board members sit on the board of the charter schools and send their children there too

[Stinky The Clown]

91. Unrec

Hoo yoo tawkin' to?

[The Midway Rebel]

95. I work in both types of schools.

So far, I have never met a student on an IEP in a charter school. In one public school experience 8 out of 24 9th graders in that overcrowded classroom were on an IEP. I had to lower my expectations for the entire class because of it. I never have had to dismiss a student to the nurses office to pop a pill at a charter school. Never saw the police called to a classroom to deal with a violent student at a charter school. Never had to hold a students thrashing body during a siezure at a charter school. Stranger still, I have never seen a student in a wheel chair, with a hearing aid or a physical deformity or handicap at a charter school.

If charters school work better, and so far they don't, that is why.

[knitter4democracy]

100. Last spring, I taught in a charter and a private school (half day each).

The private school followed 504s (even though they didn't have to) and IEPs, and the charter I still am in is an alternative high school. You name the IEP, we have it. You name the special need or socioeconomic level, we have it. We called the police once this year (I missed it, as I was at the other school), and we have several kids who have multiple seizures a year.

Ours is not the usual charter, though, as it's managed by the local public school district, so our teachers are union, too.

[Greyskye]

130. 4th-5th grade classroom: 10 out of 25 on IEP's. Last year.

How do I know this? This was my wife's non-profit public charter classroom. That's a dramatically higher percentage then any classes in the traditional public school across the street. Here's a link to the post where she talks about it: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Greyskye/25

The OP is exactly correct from my perspective in northern California.

[yurbud]

97. Q: can charter schools be run by for profit companies? A: yes they can. Your post is dishonest

[johnaries]

102. Only in 4 states. See post #51.

[yurbud]

113. nominal non-profits can still turn a profit with real estate scams like this:

Shell corporations, and supposedly unrelated subdivisions of the same company somehow figure out how to use this to siphon off our taxpayer dollars.

But it is not only in Florida that there have been objections to, and problems with, Imagine Schools. In Texas and Nevada, concerns have been raised about Imagine Schools' finances and complex real estate deals that have led to the charters spending up to 40% of their entire publicly funded budget on rent to for-profit companies, including Imagine's real estate arm, Schoolhouse Finance, leaving them with tight budgets for necessary materials like textbooks. In the interest of comparison, many other charter schools spend in the neighborhood of 14% of their public funding on building rent. The real estate deals, where the charter run by Imagine leases the building from Schoolhouse Finance, who then sells the property to a real estate investment trust who then leases it back to Schoolhouse at a lower rate than what the charter pays, have proven very lucrative for owners and investors in the two companies. Former Imagine School principals who inquired into the real estate expenditures were subsequently fired. But, naturally, they have also drawn sharp criticism from boards of education.

http://www.examiner.com/x-12824-Dade-County-Education-Policy-Examiner~y2009m7d6-Who-profits-from-forprofit-charter-schools-in-Florida

[yurbud]

114. why else would LA real estate mogul Eli Broad take such an interest in it?

[fishwax]

120. then how does National Heritage Academies operate schools in eight states?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Heritage_Academies

National Heritage Academies, Inc. (NHA) is a for-profit charter school management organization headquartered in Grand Rapids, Michigan that was formed in 1995 by entrepreneur J.C. Huizenga.

As of 2010, National Heritage Academies is a collection of 67 charter schools in the eight states: Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, New York, North Carolina, Colorado, Georgia, and Louisiana.

[MadHound]

131. Stop lying, stop using Wiki for a source, and stop spreading false bullshit

For profit charters are allowed in far more than just four states. After all, we can see how White Hat Management is operating, for profit, in Ohio, not one of the schools on that list.
<http://oh.aft.org/016990/index.cfm?action=article&articleID=4f1f04e7-4fa9-464e-992c-8657d6c46322>

This point of yours has been disproven a number of times in this thread. Stop lying, stop spreading bullshit.

[ibegurpard]

107. Thankfully no one's buying what you're trying to sell.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

109. Your position does not reflect the current realities

Charter schools were once as you described. Educations experimental laboratories with willing subjects. The concept actually came out of the educational community. Some are still true to that goal, though some here are loath to admit it. Immersion schools come to mind as charter schools true to the original concept as do some of the magnet or specialty schools.

However commercialization and politics have also entered into the charter school movement, and some of the results are pretty shameful. They too count as charter schools and they are in many cases a crime in progress.

Over all I support those following the original intent of charter schools. They are no threat to the current public education process. Some of the other charters are inexcusable wastes.

[yurbud]

119. we should thank the OP for reminding us of the achilles heel of these education ''reformers''

they avoid like the plague any mention of ''privatization'' and ''for-profit'' because the Social Security privatization went over like a fart in church.

The more we drag that element into the spotlight, the sooner this rabid dog will die.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

126. To kill them all is unwarranted and counter productive

Charters as originally envisioned should not die since They are one of the few sources of innovative ideas in education. Those pretending to be charter schools should be hounded out of existence immediately. That is a level of nuance some here and elsewhere can not seem to understand. That kind of binary thinking is becoming more popular on both sides and is just scary.

[yurbud]

127. I agree. Unfortunately, the scammers have the bucks to drive reform and will craft it

so it will be easiest for them to take advantage of it and hard for those of good will to do the same.

[ClassWarrior]

115. Okay, so they're a third thing promoted by right wing private school advocates to drain funds...

...from public schools. But they themselves are not private schools.

So what's your point?

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

135. No answer??

NGU.

[TomCADem]

125. Kick - The Merits of Charter Schools Should Be Discussed Without The Misinformation...

When folks spread false information such as charter schools equals the abrogation of public education, then it hurts their cause. Why set up a straw man and avoid an honest debate?

[MadHound]

132. What are the merits of charter schools?

They suck taxpayer money away from public schools, give it to private corporations, and achieve results that are no better, and in fact many times they are worse than what public schools achieve. Meanwhile charter schools allow the unions to be busted and teachers' salaries to be reduced even further, thus acting as a disincentive for quality candidates to go into teaching. Not to mention the disservice this does to our children.

Have I missed anything?

[Warren Stupidity]

134. yes - magnet schools acheive all the touted positve results

with none of the side effects that the rightwing actually wants.

[MadHound]

136. Sure they will,

As long as magnet schools are allowed to select the best and brightest students, have a student population that comes from the top half of the SES bracket, and can exclude students with learning, developmental, or physical disabilities, or are ELL students.

You put those kind of restrictions on the student body you bring in, of course magnet schools will do better. What you're doing is comparing apples and oranges.

[Warren Stupidity]

129. No. They are a shell game to defund public education.

There are quite valid ways to create true public schools that do whatever it is charter schools are supposed to do without privatizing the public education system.

[LeFleur1]

133. Charter Schools

can hire any activist nutcake on the planet to indoctrinate their students. And what if the school is shut down after a year? The kids who went to it have been harmed.

The absolute worst schools my grandkids attended were two charter schools. They were pulled out but the public school in their area said they had no room for them. The charter school was their "district". So they were homeschooled through an excellent school district program.

Public schools don't have to differ in curriculum. That's up to the states. They can set the standard if they'd get off their duffs and do it. Why not have a basic standard curriculum? Contrary to opinion, the public schools are not failing our students. Yes, in the inner cities they often are. Yes, they could do better in a whole lot of instances. Let's work with that. They turn NO ONE away. Everyone gets an education. It is one of the differences between America and other countries. I'm afraid, in their zeal to improve the worst of the worst, they will decimate public schools and we will be left with indoctrination of our children instead of learning.

There may be some good charter schools, but there are many many very very bad ones and, and there is no oversight that matters. I hope none of your children are exposed to them. The difference between the charters and public schools is that you can go to the school board of a public school and raise heck about the bad school in your district and they will try to improve it upon threat. (or should) Charter schools have closed administration. You have no say. It's dangerous.

At least private schools are upfront about what they are teaching before you choose to pay the bill. As I understand it, you have no choice about whether or not to pay the charter school bill. It's your tax money given to private entities once again.

[bvar22]

137. Want to fix the Public School System?

Require everyone who draws a paycheck from Uncle Sam to enroll their children in the Public School System.

Want to destroy the Public School System and bust another Union?
Find a way to divert Public Education Money into Private Pockets.

[Phentex]

139. But what if your public school IS a charter school?

Are you supposed to move to a non-charter school district? Or send your kids to private school?

[yurbud]

142. the public didn't buy the diversion to private pockets with vouchers, so they had to get sneakier

[mmonk]

138. Charter school:

Date: 1992
: a tax-supported school established by a charter between a granting body (as a school board) and an outside group (as of teachers and parents) which operates the school without most local and state educational regulations so as to achieve set goals


About the only difference I see is that it is tax supported. The schools usually pay commercial rent to someone in a shopping center, office complex, etc. They can keep out students they don't want from both a size or goals standard.

[bvar22]

143. Oh Boy!

Now we can have segregated schools again !
:party:

[mmonk]

144. Yep.

Not only that, keep disabled kids out of schools or choice as well.

[fascisthunter]

140. lol

ok, whatever you say