Why did state teachers unions support Tennessee's Race to the Top application?

[Radical Activist]

Only two states have received Race to the Top funds, with Tennessee being the top recipient. We're now able to look at these states as an example of what the program will do rather than wildly speculate about worst-case-scenarios. One measure for awarding points is the support of teachers unions.

http://politics.usnews.com/news/national/articles/2010/03/30/how-tennessee-and-delaware-won-600-million-for-schools.html?PageNr=2

National Education Association President Dennis van Roekel said that states thinking of applying for the second round of funding should learn from the grants awarded today. "It says that if you didn't involve the teachers the first time around, it's important to do it the second time around."

Duncan was asked at a news conference how the position of the teachers unions contributed to the decision to choose Delaware and Tennessee. Duncan said that "buy-in was a piece of the scoring but not the whole thing."

"What was very impressive about Delaware and Tennessee is that they are touching 100 percent of the kids in their states" and "doing it in a very convincing way," Duncan said.

The article notes that Florida was not awarded funds after submitting a proposal, opposed by the Florida Education Association, that ended teacher tenure.

Let me restate this. The plan which has been described as a sinister plot to destroy unions and all public education is supposed to have the support of teachers unions in the state. Unions participated in producing Tennessee's application.

Part of earning their support was a decision to limit how much weight could be given to student test scores when evaluating teachers.

"Finally, Tennessee charted a reform plan that was both innovative and pragmatic. Statewide pay for performance is a polarizing idea; Tennessee handled the issue by setting up an in-state incentive fund so districts and unions that were ready to experiment could tap $12 million to do so. On the issue of including student growth in educator evaluations, Tennessee believes in the power of value-added assessment but acknowledges that it doesn’t convey everything. So basing 35 percent of an educator’s evaluation on value-added growth and another 15 percent on other measures seemed a reasonable proposal."

http://www.hepg.org/hel/article/468

Now that the program is being implemented, the facts don't support the accusation of a conspiracy to destroy unions and public schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. My union also wanted to help with our state's RttT application

You can either have a voice at the table or have reforms imposed upon you. Which would you choose?

Oh and we did breathe a huge sigh of relief when our state did not win.

[Radical Activist]

3. I see that Kansas dropped out.

Did any union in the state endorse the plan? Having a seat at the table doesn't require a final statement of support.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. I don't teach in Kansas

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. And yes, unions were required to sign off on the application

You really don't understand much about this process, do you?

[Radical Activist]

9. Florida unions didn't sign off.

And Florida didn't get an award. How do you "require" a union to sign off on something they don't support? Your claim defies basic sense.

You really like to make things up about this process, don't you?

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Have you even read the application criteria???

I have and will be glad to discuss this with you when you have read it.

[Radical Activist]

12. Dodging the question?

At some point you have to stop claiming special knowledge of the process if you aren't going to cite and link specifics. Unions can't be "required" to sign off on something they don't support.

As I pointed out in my post, states are given points for having broad support, including from unions. That's a nice safeguard against union busting and anti-teacher plans, isn't it? It forces even the most anti-union conservative Governor to deal with unions if he wants to get funds.


Why would someone do that if this were a plot to bust unions, as many here have claimed?

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. LOL do you honestly believe there is an announcement involved?

ATTENTION: WE WILL BEGIN BUSTING UNIONS NEXT WEEK

:rofl:

[asdjrocky]

17. Falling out of my chair.

Stop you're killing me.

[Radical Activist]

22. So you still offer nothing to support your claim.

I'll admit it's a nice tactic. "I know more than you so sit down, shut up, and stop asking so many questions!"

It won't work on me though. I'm not gullible enough to believe that forcing states to work with unions is union busting.

[bvar22]

42. Unions can't be forced to sign off?

They CAN be forced into Bad & Worse choices.
See the 2009 Auto Bailout.

THAT is the preferred method of Union Busting since Reagan.

But you really can't say, "Hey! The Unions voted FOR it, so they MUST support it!"
Thats not really honest.

[Radical Activist]

43. They didn't support it in other states, like Florida.

So obviously they can't be forced. Given how badly Florida's proposal was directed at teachers, I can see why someone from that state would have a distorted view of the program. But that's probably a reason why Florida wasn't awarded anything.

[johnaries]

16. I have. And it does not "require" unions to sign off.

http://www2.ed.gov/programs/racetothetop/phase1-applications/index.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. Once again. Points are awarded for meeting the criteria.

If the unions don't sign off, points are lost. You can play all the word games you want here. I'm done.

[mzteris]

36. so you just admitted that the process

supports - and fosters working with - unions!



typo

[rateyes]

2. As one who was certified to teach in Tennessee schools...

the union isn't very strong in Tennessee. And, you know what, scores will not improve significantly when class sizes are getting bigger because systems won't hire teachers, and good teachers are leaving because of not being allowed to actually TEACH.

So, booya for Tennessee caving to Arne Duncan's and Obama's stupid-assed program to improve schools, when they have never set foot in a public school classroom to do one day of teaching.

[Radical Activist]

6. And yet, RTTT

gives more money to hire teachers and bonuses to teach in failing schools. So, you have valid concerns but I don't see that they relate to Race.

Of course, all Tennessee unions are weak because it's a right to work state, but that's another can of worms.

[rateyes]

8. As long as half the teachers are fired and replaced.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Once again you don't have the facts

Teachers are not mandated to join unions in states that are not right to work states. Union membership for all teachers in the country is voluntary, never forced. So right to work - or not - has no bearing on teachers unions.

[Radical Activist]

13. Once again, you don't get it and miss the point.

No one is required to even recognize or negotiate with a union in Tennessee. So it goes well beyond not requiring teachers to join a union. Tennessee's draconian right to work laws have a major bearing on teachers and unions, apparently far beyond what you understand.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Teachers are not required to join unions in any state

So this is a point that does not matter.

[dsc]

20. actually it does

I work in NC and can tell you that it is a huge difference to work in a place like NC and one like OH in terms of union membership of teachers. Our salaries are set by the state via legislation and can't be collectively bargained. We do get a suppliment of a percent over that salary in some districts but even that is set by the board of ed and isn't collectively bargained. Further we don't get fair share fees from employees who don't join the union like happened in Ohio. As a result we have around 60,000 members out of around 180,000 employees. It really is a different world here.

[Radical Activist]

21. Thanks for filling in those details.

It makes a huge difference when a union has no legal right to bargain with a school district or be formally recognized in any way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. You're talking apples and oranges

Agency fees are required in some states. But that's not the same as requiring union membership.

[dsc]

30. I never said it did

but when you have to pay a fee for the bargaining it makes a pretty big difference. But even without that, the inability to bargain in the first place is also a big deal. Union membership is vastly lower here and will be that way until both of those factors are addressed.

[mzteris]

37. no one ever stepped foot in a public school classroom??

Really?

You might want to review the bios of the senior staff, then the bios of all the members of all the committees that advise the office of the Sec of Ed.

http://www2.ed.gov/news/staff/bios/index.html?src=rt

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/index.html

[rateyes]

4. More than one way to destroy a union...

and RTTP is one way to do it.

[johnaries]

18. It's because they reached a compromise on student/teacher

evaluations, and a pretty good one IMHO.

A major sticking point in debate has been a decision on how much weight to give student testing data in evaluating teachers. Bredesen had previously insisted that results from the Tennessee Value-Added Assessment System should count for 50 percent of an evaluation score. The teachers union had insisted on no more than 35 percent.

Under the compromise announced Wednesday after lengthy negotiations, the "student growth data" from value-added testing will be the basis for 35 percent of an evaluation.

Another 15 percent will be based on other "student performance" information.

Education Commissioner Tim Webb said there will be multiple potential sources for the 15 percent, ranging from ACT scores to "portfolio assessments of student work."

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2010/jan/13/tea-drops-opposition-to-race-to-the-top/

Personally, I would like to see a higher percentage on the "other student performance" to help avoid "teaching to the test", but it's still a good compromise and I'm proud of the TEA for fighting for it.

[rateyes]

19. yeah...looks like it's working....NOT

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8861841

[Greyskye]

27. Your link points to changes in 2007. OP is in regards to 2010.

Strawman.

[Radical Activist]

29. The money is only just now being distributed

and you want to blame Race for falling test scores? Is that what you're really suggesting?

What do you think of this part at the end of the article?

The new standards are aligned with the National Assessment of Educational Progress, long the gold standard of student progress.
"We told 84 percent of the kids in the state they were proficient," Bredesen said. "When we went to NAEP, 21 percent were proficient. We had easy tests."

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/jul/31/student-scores-plunge-in-new-test/

[mzteris]

38. yet some think raising standards is "bad" for kids

'cause then they think they're "failures".


I've got news - they ARE "failing"! Lowering standards so more people "pass" and "feel good about themselves" really is not doing them - or this country - ANY favors!

I know it comes as a shock to little Johnny's parents that the school work he's doing is two years behind what some other state is doing. It's not that little Johnny isn't smart enough, it's that he hasn't been taught enough. (Not the teachers fault that states have so egregiously dumbed down their curriculum. While NCLB does bear a large share of the blame on that, in actuality, that dumbing down has been going on for decades. When I homeschooled my older son, we chose an Algebra text from the 50's - much better written, and better examples. The level of work required was much more difficult than what you see in a text today.

[yurbud]

23. some unions think the crumbs of funding from race to the top are worth the cost

but it's like borrowing money from the mafia--they'll regret the ''interest'' Duncan charges.

[Hannah Bell]

35. they can't use most of the money for anything but testing anyway.

only sellouts would want it in the first place.

[Radical Activist]

39. Now you're just lying.

Even five minutes of studying the Tennessee plan will tell you that isn't true.

[Hannah Bell]

44. if you say so, rad.

[Radical Activist]

46. I do and so do the documents detailing where the money is being spent in TN and DE.

"No, everything Obama does is the devil! Lalalalala!!!" - Hannah Bell

[Hannah Bell]

47. i haven't seen the tn app but testing, assessments, eval based on testing, i.e. DATA COLLECTION

is apparently a large piece of what the funds are for:

On the issue of including student growth in educator evaluations, Tennessee believes in the power of value-added assessment but acknowledges that it doesn’t convey everything. So basing 35 percent of an educator’s evaluation on value-added growth and another 15 percent on other measures seemed a reasonable proposal."

[Hannah Bell]

26. just too much. it *is* a plan to destroy public schooling & unions, no matter how often

the apologists say otherwise.

"by their fruits ye shall know them"

the fruits thus far are privatization, mass firings of unionized personnel, undermining of contract provisions & wholesale school closings.

mendacity.

[Radical Activist]

31. It forces states to work with unions.

Even states with conservative anti-union Governor's will be forced to work with unions and get their support if they want funds.

Obama required states to give unions a seat at the table. He intentionally strengthened their hand. That's some funny kind of union busting I've never heard of.

Please show me how the two approved plans, TN and DE, will result in widespread privatization and mass firings (If you want to save time, I'll give you a hint: they don't).

Yes, by their works ye shall know them. Not by wildly speculative accusations made by bloggers. And since you always go back to my screen name when you have nothing to write, I'll rebut you preemptively: sticking to the facts doesn't make someone less radical.

[Hannah Bell]

32. "forced to work with unions" -- how's that again?

obama and his ed head arne specifically and publicly *cheered* the mass firing of union personnel in rhode island in violation of contract rights.

[Radical Activist]

33. Yeah, who cares about broad policy decisions?!

One comment about a decision Obama didn't make is much more important than policy details, right? Who needs facts when you've got a grudge to nurse?! Why not hang Obama in effigy just like one of those teachers in RI did for his classes?

Obama empowered unions with a guaranteed seat at the table through RTTP, even in right-to-work states with anti-union Governors. Think about that.

[Hannah Bell]

34. a guaranteed seat at *which* table?

not too much risk in giving collaborating union leaders a seat at the rttt table.

clue one: the unions have to agree to give back their rights to get the rttt money: work rules, tenure rules, etc. and unless they agree to give back their rights, rttt won't go through -- not without court fights.

because it's illegal.

that's the only reason the ed deformers want labor at the table. & since the top leadership is corrupt & had moles in every state, there's generally enough puppets in the local leaderships to sit "at the table" & sell out the membership.

were labor not "at the table" obama's deform would be a no-go.

[Radical Activist]

40. So now the leaders of the TN Education Association are corrupt and part of the conspiracy?

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims?

I see you're willing to throw union leaders under the bus if they get in the way of attacking Obama.

[Hannah Bell]

45. i'm not talking about tennessee. but i'd be happy to throw randi weingarten under the bus.

[MadHound]

28. Two reasons that I can think of

First, states are desperate for education money. We realize that strings have been attached, but with the abysmal underfunding of education for the umpteen decade, and with tax revenue down to a housing bust(remember, most school funding is local property taxes) they're willing to deal with the devil just to keep some sort of funding and quality programs in our schools.

Second, they realize that this is how it is going to be, and that RTTT is going to happen whether they want it or not. Thus, the rationale goes that it is better to have some sort of minimal voice in how this travesty goes down rather than none at all.

[yurbud]

41. the ''better to be a house slave than a field slave'' mentality