Well, the coup d’etat is over, and they won. (Chris Hedges)

[kpete]

Chris Hedges: "We have to stop believing that we can effect change through established political or social organizations or electoral politics, and I think that still remains a huge hurdle for us people who in the end, through accommodation of fear and very clever advertising, are herded like sheep into a dysfunctional system, which is how so many people who should have known better voted for Obama. The environmental crisis that we're about to face will be even more catastrophic than the economic, and we have to, on a personal level, reconsider how we relate to the society at large and to the ecosystem. We have both personal and social decisions to make. At this point most people are not willing to make those choices or take those steps."

..................

Well, the coup d’etat is over, and they won. We lost. And now we have to learn to cope with it. It is very clear that the engines of corporatism and globalization are going to kill the ecosystem, no matter how many dead zones are created in the Gulf of Mexico or protests organized. We are going to have to make some very serious decisions about acts that dispute a system that in theological terms is a system of death and exploitation. And yet even then, it’s probably too late. If you read closely the science on global warming, it’s disrupting, even if we stop emissions, global warming will accelerate because of what has already been emitted. I think we have to begin to prepare for collapse, and if you want to survive, that’s going to mean access to a local food source. So, in the end I’m with Camus, I don’t think we’re going to fool ourselves into thinking we can make a change. It’s all hijacked, the political system, financial system ... hijacked military complex, it’s hijacked, even all of our social and educational systems. I’ve taught at places like Princeton and they all function like corporations. We’ve allowed these corporations to snuff out all voices of sanity and decency and why we listen to this garbage and why we watch it. ... Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow are as bad as the right wing; they are all playing the same wing, nobody is addressing the institutional methods that are strangling us. I don’t care if it’s from the left or right, it all acts as diversion to keep us in a state of self-delusion.


http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/live_chat_chris_hedges_on_global_warming_20100721/

disclaimer: I am a liberal. I read everything. I digest and use what I want as fuel to fight another day. I am not anti-Obama, anti-America, or anti-kittens. I just like to be fed, kpete

[another saigon]

1. Chris is always a tough read

this is especially brutal but no less true.

thanks Chris,

[ThomWV]

5. What do you mean by 'tough read'

Normally I take that phrase to mean hard to understand, but what he has to say seems easily understandable to me. Maybe I misunderstand the meaning of the phrase, or more hopefully it simply has a second meaning that I'm not aware of. So, if you don't mind, how did you mean it to be used?

[another saigon]

19. tough read:

"the truth hurts"? Sorry for the confusion. I thought everyone knew Chris is beyond blunt in his writings. Sometimes he terrifies me.

[EFerrari]

69. I usually have to take more than one swing at his work

because my brain tries to shut down on me from fright, no kidding.

[another saigon]

80. I hear you

:scared:

He is like Howard Zinn on steriods without the 'hope'. Yet like watching a car accident, even though I know it will be ugly, I can't stop reading him.

[EFerrari]

120. I was thinking the same thing this morning.

He's as clear as Howard but without the confidence in ordinary people.

[XemaSab]

143. Have you read "War is a force that gives us meaning?"

You'd lose faith in ordinary people too. :o

[BeHereNow]

199. I don't think there are many "ordinary" people left.

Every where I go all I see is a swirling mass
of completely neurotic, narcissistic and delusional people.
How else can we explain Palinites, or the people who just
keep SHOPPING for shit they don't need...

BHN

[clarence swinney]

295. War is a Force

that enriches the richest

who owns defense manufacturing facilities?

Is not Main Street

[dixiegrrrrl]

287. I have same reaction to him. He wields truth like a dagger.

Hedges has the advantage of spending much of his time outside of the US, thus gaining different perspective than most of us who do not travel the world.
I like the clarity and honesty of his writing, hate the truth of it at times.
lne

[freeplessinseattle]

276. "especially brutal" key phrasing right there n/t

[ThomWV]

2. Thank you, and I agree with your disclaimer.

[Lost4words]

3. B I N G O

[inna]

4. K&R

[n2doc]

6. His message is vital

We need to be preparing for climate change. We will not get any help from our so called leadership. And I guarantee the ultra-rich are planning (at least the ones with any brains).

[Winterblues]

7. which is how so many people who should have known better voted for Obama.

Right like McCain and Barbie would save the world...:crazy:

[Joe Fields]

9. Which is why I wrote Gore's name in.

[Wednesdays]

78. Gore was close to winning it all in 08?

News to me. :shrug:

[Joe Fields]

149. did I say any such thing? I think not.

I saw through Obama then, as many are beginning to see through him now. I felt that Gore was best suited to run this country.

[hfojvt]

18. maybe Hillary would have

or Nader, of course.

[defendandprotect]

237. Hillary is DLC -- Nader is a populist --

[BonnieJW]

291. I wonder if someone like Nader

would have a bigger chance of winning now that we have reached a point of no return? I say someone like Nader because I don't think Nader has the disposition to win.

[Myrina]

29. different cuts of the same cloth, ultimately ...

... so sad that even as clear as Hedges makes it in this article, some folks - like you - still refuse to see that it is us against them - and the 'them team' includes BOTH parties.

[SammyWinstonJack]

30. +1.

:thumbsup:

[MissDeeds]

63. Sadly, I agree n/t

[KittyWampus]

65. actually, your "us v. them" is reptilian thinking just as much part of the same cloth.

[Myrina]

127. Reptilian. How lovely.

:eyes:

[inna]

208. reptilian?

fuck.

nice job there.

:nuke:

[inna]

211. the vilest comment of the day, afaic.

[KittyWampus]

253. then you must not have a basic understanding of the human brain or

human psychology.

[metapunditedgy]

67. I think there is/was a difference. Obama had the OPPORTUNITY to bring change.

He had a mandate, a majority in both Houses, and a ton of goodwill from Americans (and people around the world).

He did not take this opportunity to stop "business as usual," and so here we are discussing it on the internet. :-(

[truedelphi]

172. + My household. n/t

[JuniperLea]

175. Oh, you mean he didn't behave as Bush did...

And run roughshod over everyone to further his own agenda?

I call that progress... I call it change too. I didn't like it when Bush did it and I damn well wouldn't have liked it had Obama done it.

I taught my kids to manage their expectations... when one had a birthday, the other wasn't to expect any presents. When you are part of a large group of people, no one person should dictate what all of the others get to do, or get to have. It means there's an average, a middle of the road, a medium.

[metapunditedgy]

201. Analogy fail. I would never promise my children something that I did not intend to deliver.

I voted for the man who told me "health care is a RIGHT, not a privilege." Making a right turn AFTER the election is not "managing expectations."

[JuniperLea]

209. Ever heard of The Hyde Amendment? eom

[metapunditedgy]

215. Is this yet another "Obama is trapped and can't say so" post?

It's starting to sound like the poor guy could get stuck in his own lunch box.

Americans voted for a very different Obama. He had the momentum and CHOSE not to use it.

[JuniperLea]

216. You want him to circumvent the law?

Really? If you want to repeal the Hyde Amendment, why not work toward that instead of bashing someone for adherence to the law?

[snake in the grass]

214. Oh, cut the crap finally!

It's not that he didn't 'act' like Bush, which is a straw man extraordinaire. We wanted him to not be like Bush, if you must know by not selling our interests out to the highest bidder. Is that so difficult to wrap your head around?

Why the fuck didn't he fight for the public option, when nearly 70% of us were for it? The last I looked that is not a small, insignificant minority to throw under the bus. Why weren't representatives from the various organizations promoting a single-payer system not even allowed a seat at the table? Huh? Answer that one.

Why are we still performing renditions? How do you feel about the torture still being committed in our names? What about the useless wars killing our people and theirs, draining our treasury, and creating more enemies by the day? Does it tickle your heart that BP is calling the shots in the Gulf, while openly showing the administration the finger? What about the new law passed prohibiting people from getting closer than 65 feet to any area affected by the catastrophe (keep in mind, this is not a 'spill'); basically preventing any sort of documentation of the damage done? Warrantless wiretapping? Still going on and AT&T will not even be reproached, much less punished for going along with the power grab. Habeas corpus? Oh, fuck that one too, right? It's so fucking 13th century! How about giving the war criminals a get-out-of-jail-free card and therethrough, covering for their horrendous crimes?

So, what about that?

I know, I know, it doesn't matter because 'our guy' is in the White House.

Welcome to the United States. Please leave your principles at the door!

Sickening!

[green917]

275. +1,000,000,000

Well said!

[defendandprotect]

242. What would you call putting "The Cat Food Commission" in place with executive order?

[defendandprotect]

243. Unfortunately, Obama has behaved too much as Bush would have . . . !!

That's the problem!!

[alarimer]

262. Unfortunately he has acted precisely as Bush did or in some cases even worse.

Indefinite detention. Check.
More war. Check.
Not holding Wall Street accountable for their ruining of the economy. Check.

There is a difference between running roughshod and standing up for principles. Obama has not stood up for one single thing. He has sided with corporate interests against the people's interests every single time. He has abandoned progressive values before beginning the negotiating process (health care, financial reform). In some ways he is even worse that Bush because he apparently stands for nothing. He continually appeases Republicans but gets nothing in return. They will NEVER cooperate. Obama is not stupid so I cannot figure out why he keeps doing this. It is time to say "fuck the Republicans" and do what he should have done in the first place, and ignore them.

[tomp]

270. he just ran roughshod over the left...

...but apparently that's ok with you.

[defendandprotect]

240. Correct . . . in the end, Obama has stomped any opportunity for change into the ground ...

and there were many opportunities --

from universal health care --

to real financial reform -- reinstituting New Deal rules and regulations --

and now . . . onward Obama goes with his little hatchet to Social Security and Medicare!!

[tomp]

271. long before obama got here i felt it would come to this.

i believe hedges. i believe they are planning for such destruction and taking all they can get now while
removing any means of effective resistance. i think they think they can effectively defend themselves in
enclaves somehow and there will always be enough sellouts or scroungers to take care of them.

it's hard being ahead of the curve, nobody believes you.

obama should really be squashing my pessimism. instead he is proving my point.

[inna]

298. i'm with you. nt

[defendandprotect]

315. Yes . . . the plans for "survival" are well laid out in "Dr. Strangelove" ... or

Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057012/


We've been dealing with true insanity in the MIC -- but always easy to sell, evidently!!




Best wishes --
:)

[metapunditedgy]

306. That's a *scalpel*, not a *hatchet.* I fear that soon the 2008 presidential debates

will be completely erased from internet archives.

[defendandprotect]

316. Not clear on your comment . . .

Is that a mea culpa for the "Cat Food Commission" or . . .

are you suggesting slo-mo destruction?

And, I'm a long time witness to things being "scrubbed" from internet!

Moving faster all the time!

[metapunditedgy]

322. It's a reference to one of the presidential debates.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95772062

Obama deflected McCain's call to cut spending by saying we need a scalpel, not a hatchet, and that some programs are actually underfunded. "I want to make sure we are focused on the programs that work." (I don't know if they actually named any specific programs...)

I do wonder about internet scrubbing... someone should keep a record of the number of hits that Google finds for "Obama Baucus Health Care Reform" over time...

[defendandprotect]

327. Thank you -- my apologies for not getting it -- !!

I didn't watch the debates ...

Re the scrubbing -- other than the general scrubbing going on to remove -- it seems to me --

left wing opposiiton to any position -- two interesting scrubbings I personally experienced --

One -- about 4-5 weeks ago, Obama quote headed a yahoo article and he was addressing

our "depression." I minimized the article to post at DU and when next I got to it -- granted

perhaps a half hour later -- the word had been changed to "recession." Some Senators have

been calling it "The Great Recession," btw.


In a Pentagon memo to W Bush back a few years ago where they were warning him that Global

Warming was a bigger threat to US than "terrorists" .... they cited the many catastrophes

which would increase in number and intensity -- including "earthquakes."

That was on the internet a few years before the word "earthquakes" was scrubbed --

[villager]

75. Right -- it's the system that's killing the planet, it won't allow itself to be "changed"

...from "within."

Though of course, its planet-killing ways will eventually change it beyond recognizable form...

[defendandprotect]

239. Yes - -"both parties" infected with the corporatism cancer now . . .

That message has been out there more than 40 years, I think --

and Ralph Nader never once said "I told you so!" --

As Howard Zinn has often made clear ... "You can't be neutral on a moving train" --

Both of the two political parties are united in tying up the elections and political

debates -- privatized them -- work together to keep third parties from increasing.

To keep IRV voting from happening --

Do you believe this story Hartmann told the other day . . .

He said the reason he was given by a Democrat as to why the subject of computer hacking/

elections has been made a taboo subject for any Democrat is because the leadership fears

that if they tell Democrats that computers are hackable that Democrats will stop voting!!

How about that for "fear - based" reasoning -- even if you want to buy it?





:)

[flyarm]

255. we in Fla have been hearing that Meme since 2000, every time we tried to change the system in Fla

and abolish the DRE, we heard that over and over again.

Then when we finally got the state legislature to ban DRE's they tagged onto the bill a change of primary date..and it was that change that had us lose our Delegates by the Dem party.

Even when we fought to try to stop this date change for our primary, in our legislature, we were told to shut up by the Dem party ..the repeated over and over ,it would keep dems from voting, and that we would have no problems with the date change..only to see the Dems in DC steal our primary votes through negating our delegates!

It was a total stealing of our primary of over 2 million voters , but it was stealing the state of Florida for the nomination of candidates!

In Plain sight.

In 2000 republicans stole the State of Florida , in 2008 it was the democrats! And it was in your face and the media kept the truth from the American people!

[defendandprotect]

260. Interesting review . . . much of which I didn't know . . .

So -- what do you think -- ? Is this a cover story for doing nothing to move

party to the right -- or is there any basis for thinking they'd hold such a ridiculous fear?

Where are you now with ridding yourselves of computers?



Also - are you familiar with the investigation of computers in the 1960's . . . ???

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

There were two brothers - journalists - in Florida in 1960's who began to notice the odd

results from computers -- they finally had a book published which was immediately removed

from book store shelves. The book is available in some libraries -- around abouts for $2.00

also -- and the website tries to keep the book up for anyone to read there.

Interesting story -- among other things, something I never thought of ... that this also

included the large computers used by MSM -- and they began to come in first.

Before that time, MSM could only report actual vote tallies. Afterwards, they had a crystal

ball to PREDICT and CALL elections -- new powers we saw reversed in 2000!

:)

[flyarm]

277. In 2008 we were the only state in the nation to Ban DRE's ..and how were we paid back?

The Dems stole our delegates!And our primary. Hillary won our state overwhelmingly. She did not get the delegates she won!

( I forgot to add..we had a majority republican legislature..that finally banned the DRE;s but they tagged onto the bill the date change for our primary) it was a total set up!

It was well known our senior women would vote for Hillary. We have a huge population of senior women!!

[defendandprotect]

317. Thanks . . . as another poster is saying .. don't think many of us know what

actually went down at that time with so much going on --

but, are you still voting on computers?

What's a DRE . . . duh . . . sorry I have to ask!!

[peacetalksforall]

292. Can you please tell me where to go to read about this. I knew something

rotten was going on, but in prioritizing the time I had to read things, I never figured it out. I only know that I turned against Debbie Wasserman-Schultz (completely) and I had already turned against Bill Nelson.

[HillbillyBob]

340. I lived in Ft Laud during that fubar mess

We saw the 'challengers' err intimidation of af am voters at the polling place, shredded ballots in the middle of the night. I ll say no more, we got harassed even after we moved 4 states away by the feds for speaking out about it, threatened actually.

Oh and the 'Brooks Brothers Rioters' the Bushbois friends intimidating the ballot counters. Causing them to stop the recount. I can't remember his name now, but the leader got a job in the bush admin. They should have been arrested and charged with election tampering.

[clarence swinney]

296. WSA WSA WSA

Formerly known as USA USA USA

wall street of america
Own Corporations
Own Banks
Own Pentagon
Own Congress
Own White House

1% owns 43% wealth

80% own 7%=120,000,000 workers=shafted and hurting

Think it cannot get worse?

They will kill to get the remaining 7%

olduglymeanhonest

[defendandprotect]

321. Interesting overview . . .

How about we uninvent the dollar bill?

Howard Hughes, they say, wanted to own everything --

I'm sure we'll see child labor popping up again in America shortly!!!

:)

[NoSheep]

53. You could have just said GI Joe and Barbie

[havbrush]

57. Voted for Obama

Get real. Would you rather Hot Head McCain and Caribou Barbie? There's much being accomplished despite the the biggest plateload of crap ever left for an incoming president to fix. Remember that, "the biggest plateload ever," and with rethugs voting no on everything just so he fails. What do they care about the country and the economy and people losing their homes and not working as long as the president fails and they get back in power and put in more policies that favor the rich and their corporations. Ever think about it? Everytime rethugs are in office the rich, 5-10% of the population, thrive while everyone else, us 90%, get left with recessions and depressions and job losses. Go back through history, Rethug Hoover presided over the greatest downturn ever in the 30's. It was left for Roosevelt to fix. There was a serious recession during Eisenhower's era, also during Tricky Dick's time, Reagan's time, and Daddy Bush's time (Remember the Clinton slogan during his campaign again'st Daddy Bush, "It's the economy, stupid." And of course the worst president of them all, W Bush, left the aforementioned plateload of crap for Obama to fix. Remember this also, the auto bailout worked, GM and Chrysler are adding jobs and paying back the money, health care passed, financial reform passed, the stimulus saved thousands if not millions of jobs by infusing cash into state and local governments so they didn't have to layoff cops, firemen, garbage men and teachers, etc. We're gettng out of Iraq. But there is still a big load of things on the president's plate, like more jobs, the environment, immigration, Afghanistan and what to do about traitor Bluedog democrats voting with rethugs, and the constant ripping by the right wing media who seem to influence may people into thinking nothing is getting done, perhaps even some on this site. Things are of course not perfect. I myself wanted single payer health care which goes even further than the public option would have. I want much more efforts towards job creation, green energy is the logical place to start. It's so clear it's like a neon sign flashing "Green, Green, Green" over and over. I don't know why the presidents advisers aren't hyping that everyday. I want the immigration problem solved with some kind of path to citizenship for the hardworking undocumented. I want the dems to forget about bi-partisanship also. I don't care if not one rethug votes on bills, pass them all by reconsiliation and get things done. Damn the rethugs. Get people back to work and save the country from the most severe economic crisis since the Great Depression some 80 years ago.

[Grinchie]

145. Just because one was an apparent shit sandwich doesnt take the disgust out of what we got.

[renate]

190. thumbs up

Well said:
Remember that, "the biggest plateload ever," and with rethugs voting no on everything just so he fails. What do they care about the country and the economy and people losing their homes and not working as long as the president fails and they get back in power and put in more policies that favor the rich and their corporations.

Without Republicans voting as a solid bloc, messing up EVERYTHING Obama has tried to do, we'd be pretty happy.

[defendandprotect]

244. Respond to a poor outcome with the "greater evil" . . . adults can do better than that -- !!

[tomp]

272. bro, try paragraphs.

and for the record, we don't have time for anything less than perfect, and obama ain't cuttin' it.

also, if the repubs keep voting no simply to ruin obama, why does he keep accommodating them?

even when he doesn't have to, like with the executive order on abortion that goes beyond stupak
unnecessarily?

and why does everything have to be on the table for soc. security except leaving a perfectly well
running system alone, and the only thing not on the hc"r" table was the only thing that would
actually solve the problem?

obama sucks big time, and you are in denial.

[MedicalAdmin]

66. There were more candidates than Obama and the Barbie twins.

Your post indicates to me that you are effected by either/ or thinking such as one finds on the MSM. It is pervasive. I find myself slipping into it as well and fight it when I notice (or when someone points it out for me).

Don't let them put you in a box.


For the record - I never voted for Obama but I support him insofar as he supports progressive principals. I hold all my politicians to this standard.

[another saigon]

94. the lesser of two evils again?

that is so old. Like decades old. And how is it working out for you?

[uponit7771]

194. better than the greater of the two evils no?

[femrap]

176. Maybe you missed Hedges'

point. It's over. The system is corrupted. Coup d'etat. They won. You're on your own. Get off the grid and get a food source. And think very carefully about reproducing.

Corporations run the world....this 2 party bullshit is a distraction for the masses. We've been divided and conquered.

[defendandprotect]

236. You're arguing against the Obama choice with another false choice . . .

Makes no sense . . .

And, again, it's nothing but more fear-based thinking --

The idea with moving to a more liberal Democratic candidate in 2012 is to

move further away from Obama and McCain and Barbie -- not towards any of them!

[Joe Fields]

8. Sadly, very sadly, I must agree 100%

[peace frog]

188. It's painful to admit the truth

I never thought everything would fall apart so far, so fast. It hurts to agree, but I concur 100%.

[Uncle Joe]

10. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.

[kpete]

13. and thanks

for being there Uncle Joe,
peace, kpete

[midnight]

11. I remember when Andy Stevens talked about his Kathrine Harris experiences.

Some people responded with talk about tin foil hats.

[defendandprotect]

245. Interesting . . . but . ..

I'm not familiar with that event that I recall . .

can you give a line or two to what you're talking about?

:)

[ProSense]

12. "Well, the coup d’etat is over, and they won. We lost. And now we have to learn to cope with it."

He can start by going to work for Sarah Palin. She loves to quit.

"And yet even then, it’s probably too late. If you read closely the science on global warming, it’s disrupting, even if we stop emissions, global warming will accelerate because of what has already been emitted. I think we have to begin to prepare for collapse, and if you want to survive, that’s going to mean access to a local food source. "

Don't forget the duct tape.

Sheesh!

[Jakes Progress]

25. Golly. Palin and anti-science in one DU reply.

Any port in a storm I guess. Talk about your sheesh.

[TheWatcher]

40. Well, the paid establishment doesn't like it when people shed light on reality.

They don't have any real refutation to offer, so they resort to personal attacks, and worn out memes so tired and obvious that they make you embarrassed for them.

The last thing they want is you thinking for yourself and taking your eye off the ball they want you to follow.

The Message must be controlled at all costs these days.

[yowzayowzayowza]

128. Mebbie reflection, echos in light, could shed more understanding on reality?n/t

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moosepoop]

183. I found this to be very rude.

Referring to a third poster as an "it" and describing that poster in a derogatory fashion. Read the rules here lately?

[BeHereNow]

202. Seems you hit a nerve... not one, but TWO deleted responses to your post...

:evilgrin: :hi: :loveya: :hug:

Don't ever stop. Okay?

BHN

[flyarm]

250. + 1 million!! right on! eom

[Ignis]

42. Don't you get it?

Anything that could possibly be misconstrued as "anti-Obama" or "anti-Democrat" in even the most trivial way must be shouted down as quickly and stridently as possible.

You have to applaud the consistency, at least. :shrug:

[Jakes Progress]

121. Yep. I must really hate democracy.

[obxhead]

35. Yes, the damage is done, might as well ignore it and in fact even

compound it in the name of supporting our Pres.

:eyes: :puke:

[ProSense]

71. Buy duct tape.

And see a doctor about that condition.

[obxhead]

73. I called the doc.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I called, but they need a relative to get you admitted.

[Dr.Phool]

132. I'm not really a doctor, but I play one on DU.

I'll gladly give you a diagnosis on Tuesday for the price of a cheeseburger today.

Except the patient is invisible.

[XemaSab]

238. SNAP

:D

[Grinchie]

146. You again?

I can see how you can relate to Sarah Palin, as you share the same mental capacity.

[RetroLounge]

189. What took you so long to post your canned reply?

DLC give you coffee breaks now?

And really, couldn't you at least give us some of those fancy blue links to ignore?

:puke:

RL

[geek tragedy]

282. Dude, you need to stop trolling here.

The DOMINANT consensus at DU is that Obama=Bush and Democrat=Republican.

We had that debate, and our side lost big time.

Time for us--and those like us who believe that it's important to find another website and leave this one so that they can then move on to the Hitler analogies.

[Doctor_J]

14. Yes. Finally a truth teller

Hartmann said last week words to the effect of, "I like Hedges, but his writings are always so bleak and pessimistic. I like to stay positive".

We are not going to get out of this mess until we realize that Hedges' view is the much more realistic one at this point. I never miss Thom's program, but his daily calls to "go to your local party meeting (D or R)" are hopelessly naive.

[truedelphi]

326. Yes, more and more people are waking up.

It is now clear to most Democrats that unless the people that are guiding this train wreck changes course, the Administration will have no one to appeal to. come 2012.

The lines in the sand -

Obama encouraged Wall Street over Main Street with his economic appointees. So we have Geithner/Bernanke(Paulson) putting ever increasing amounts measured in Trillions of dollars into the laps of the Upper One Percent. While food stamps are being threatened with cut backs.

Obama encouraged the Big Pharma and Big Insurers with the Health Care "Reform" act of last year.

He failed to act as an executive should, regarding the BP Oil catastrophe. (This seems to be another example of his relying on the "experts" from Corporate America to tell him the truth.) He also did not step in and see to it that the agencies and their ridiculous mandates and regs step aside and let people on the Guldf shoreline help themselves in cleaning up the muck.

He now has his HSS Secretary Sibelius stunned and confused over his responding to ONE SINGLE RW RALLY in Pennsylvania that had him "forced" to see to it that women cannot have an abortion while in the high risk pools. I hope that he somehow can get those RW folks to vote for him.

No matter how many times my "inner Obama supporter" has tried to draw a line in the sand to accomadate this man, he always manages to not only cross that line, but to kick sand on me and other progressives as he does so.

[KansDem]

15. I heard on NPR yesterday morning that it costs $1.2 million a year for each soldier in Afghanistan

And of that, $58,000 actually goes to the soldier him/herself.

The rest is all for the MIC...

[defendandprotect]

246. Amazing stupidity we're paying for --

to enrich war profiteers!!

"America is really smart about really stupid things" --

[Ezlivin]

16. "Do the orders still stand?"

According to Norman Mineta on 9/11:

"When I got to the White House, it was being evacuated. I met briefly with Richard Clark, a National Security Council staff member, who had no new information. Then the Secret Service escorted me down to the Presidential Emergency Operations Center, otherwise known as the PEOC."

***

I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"

Oh, yeah, you know the orders still stand. Unfortunately "we the people" will never hear what those orders were.

But you can be damned sure they weren't in our best interest.

[Duval]

179. It was believed to be a "stand down" order to military aircraft, according to

a website in 2002, since taken down. I saw what was supposed to be a copy of the order, signed by Cheney, and I printed it. Guess we'll never know in our lifetime.

[defendandprotect]

249. And that's really interesting . . .

didn't know there was a "written order signed by Cheney" --

I'm a MIHOP thinker -- and "no plane" hit Pentagon --

so the Minetta story is doubly interesting -- it seeks to suggest someone in the

administration was a truthteller -- it sets Cheney up as the well-known villan --

and evidently there's a young soldier never questioned?

Have you tried to make any sense of that from your viewpoint?

[defendandprotect]

247. Good reminder -- thanks!

[robcon]

17. Untrue and stupid.

Change has happened. It's still happening.

I continue to be optimistic.

[Jakes Progress]

26. True and scary.

But blind optimism is a good refuge from anger and despair.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

333. is blind pessimism and cynicism any better?

[Joe Fields]

308. Mr. robcon, front desk. This is your wednesday wake-up call.

[Bonobo]

20. This is why I have jumped ship basically.

I sold my house, got out of debt and moved to an island.

We have fish and land to grow vegetables. We use kerosene for heat.

As long as the oceans don't rise too fast, we should be okay.

I am wondering where I can park my liquid assets so they don't get eaten up by bad investments. Any advice anyone? I wouldn't turn down 4-5% annual growth either.

[enough]

22. You think civilization is collapsing and you want 4-5% on your liquid assets?

Which is it?

[Bonobo]

23. I don't know if it is, or when.

But I am taking steps in case.

Is that hard to understand?

[TheWatcher]

43. For those who are desperate to stay in the clutches of the Accepted Paradigm, because it's the only

thing they can allow themselves to believe in and understand, and are too fearful to ever leave it or acknowledge what is actually happening in their country, yes, it is.

[Skidmore]

85. And, apparently, electricity and wiring for a computer and internet setup.

[Grinchie]

157. Well, I'm certainly going to use it while it lasts

I have none of it on the ranch, but their are so many homes here that need people to take care of them while they move away in search of non existant jobs that actually pay a living wage, we watch over their investment and live comfortably and plan for the future development when the time is right.

There is a lot of hard work ahead for everyone, and it's key to have the right mental state, physical stamina, and infrastructure in place. There is a lot more to carving out an off grid home than people imagine. I've done it, and I am prepared for it, but as I watch this sceme collapse in front of my very eyes, I take advantage of what we worked so hard for over the last 2 centuries as a closer to this era of wastefullness.

[totodeinhere]

203. I guess it will be the end of DU. Or maybe we can resort to mirrors and smoke signals. n/t

[bvar22]

55. We "jumped ship" in 2006,

but instead of an island, we moved deep into The Woods (Ouachita Mountains, AR) and planted a BIG Veggie Garden.
WE also raise Chickens and HoneyBees.
We have abundant clean Spring Water, are surrounded by National Forest, and plenty of Game.

Our only real concern if Health Care.
We really thought the Democrats would do something besides forcing everyone into the clutches of the Health Insurance Industry.
If we had known the "Democrats"(!) were going to sell us out the the Health Insurance Industry, we would have left the country.

[Grinchie]

155. We have basically 10% inflation, and you want 4% growth...

Ugh...

My advice, invest in books that teach you something and avoid the Ponzi scheme that's about to collapse...

[totodeinhere]

205. If I could afford it I would invest in usable commodities.

Canned foods, firewood, seeds, laying chickens, a dairy cow, and things like that come to mind.

[Grinchie]

280. Derelict farms are also good.

You never know how many crops are lying dormant in the overgrowth...

[TexasObserver]

21. Recommend.

[deutsey]

24. I was thinking this morning

that we're probably going to have to ride it out for a fairly long time under the economic/political system that has arisen in the decades since the Reagan Reaction. Kind of like what African Americans endured after Reconstruction was abandoned...it took about a century of difficult grassroots organizing to recapture the promise of that era, and even then it took a lot of fighting and blood.

Unless I see reasons to believe otherwise, I'm assuming The Clampdown is going to last for a few decades. Perhaps with us continuing to agitate and educate during that time, we'll help to build a momentum for real structural change.

[laughingliberal]

76. I'm 55. I don't think we'll see the kind of change needed in my life time. Maybe not our children's

Not sure truth telling has the same power it once did but it really does seem it is all we can do.

[CLANG]

101. Because truth is no longer truth, but just one side of a story.

[deutsey]

152. I'm not happy about it, but I agree

I'm not the "I Told You So" type, but I told people back in 1999/2000 that if Bush got into office, our children and possibly their children and their children would be digging out of the damage he'd leave behind.

I really wish I had been proven wrong...

[laughingliberal]

166. I tried leaving after the 2000 selection but was too old to emigrate as a skilled worker.

I felt Bush would be the final nail in the coffin and would do more damage than we would be able to undo in any reasonable period of time.

[femrap]

178. So it's too late for

those of us over 55? Unless we're rich and can buy citizenship? Austria sells for $400,000....but that's been a while ago.

So I guess we could join forces with illegal aliens in France!!! or slip over the border to Canada??

I'll end up as Soylent Green!

:evilgrin:

[laughingliberal]

184. 45 was the upper limit for any place I checked for skilled workers. It was 40 in some places.

I had just turned 45. I was devastated. As an RN, if I had checked into it one year earlier, I could have gone anywhere.

[RoccoR5955]

27. K & R, for this is the truth! n/t

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

28. Due to Citizens United and hackable electronic voting I also concur with this conclusion.

Sadly.

[Beam Me Up]

31. Yep. Now what are we going to do? n/t

[keepCAblue]

45. the only thing that's left for us to do.

Revolt. A revolution of the people, for the people, by the people. But we won't. We're a nation of apathy and denial.

[Desertrose]

56. Dumbed down, drugged up and hypnotized by media bait & switch.

They made sure by the time we figured it all out we'd be unable to do a damn thing about it.

[defendandprotect]

251. The internet is bringing some common understand -- most of us feel the same way about things --

but we aren't UNITED -- maybe it will begin with seniors?

It has to begin somewhere --

Meanwhile, the cards are actually in the hands of nature -- we are going to have

a really bumpy ride there!

If we don't change things, nature will -- !!

[DeSwiss]

32. K&R

Liberty nonetheless abounds in a totalitarian democracy. Open elections verify majority rule. The slaves are free to elect their masters, and that is enough to satisfy most folks in the land of the free. That, along with 100-plus cable channels to keep us entertained inside the cage. We know we are powerless, but better the devil you know than evil socialism, where you are not allowed to take out a second mortgage on your cage.

So here it is, top of the ninth round, and Gaia is on the ropes with cuts over both eyes, and no referee on the mat. Homo sapiens are moving in for the killer punch. It's been an ugly fight. But the truth is that there will be no winner. Certainly not man, considering that his triumph results in the specter of human self-extinction, dieback or die-off, or at least by massive die-back.

Call me a grim old fatalist, but I just do not see the human race turning things around. Not because humans are inherently evil (although pimping Gaia to death comes close), but because we are what we are. In any case, we are not going to stop eating, shitting, burning up stuff to stay warm, or following the genetic imperative to breed. How can we solve the problem when we are the problem, other than by self-extinction?

~ http://www.joebageant.com/">Joe Bageant

[russspeakeasy]

37. The thing about old age...it doesn't last very long

Cormac McCarthy.....No Country For Old Men......

[DeSwiss]

41. When it's good, it's never long enough.....

...and when it's bad, it seems that it will never end.

[flamingdem]

33. ... and another BIG WET kiss for the GOP nt

[GliderGuider]

34. Strongly recommended, with a major caveat

I have held Hedges' point of view on the converging crisis of civilization (the Gordian knot of problems in ecology, economics, energy and power politics) for the last half dozen years. I still believe this dark vision contains an essential truth.

Unfortunately, if you see our situation simply in the terms of those problems, and insist that the solutions must occupy the same domain as the problems themselves (i.e. environmental problems must have environmental solutions, economic problems must have economic solutions, political problems must have political solutions etc.) you rapidly come realize that we're screwed. The problem space is now so enormous and the problems themselves so tightly interwoven that the probability that we'll be able to unsnarl the knot by picking at its individual threads is rapidly approaching 0.

This worldview leads straight to despair, a state I'm intimately familiar with.

So what are the useful responses? One approach is not to give up, to keep picking doggedly at the threads of the knot in the hopes that if enough of us do that something positive will come of it, eventually. It's not a bad approach, and offers each of us a way to use our energies positively in whatever ways are available to us.

But will it "fix the problem"? It may not solve it if the problem is actually (or practically) insoluble. It is even less likely to fix it if, as I have come to believe, the true root of the problem is not in its manifestations (dying species, corrupt power structures, poisonous water, a warming planet) but in something intrinsic to our culture - some aspect of our cultural narrative that has turned our accomplishments back against us like some enormous autoimmune disease. Charles Eisenstein's book The Ascent of Humanity offers some useful insight into what that disease might be.

For me, an important aspect of the answer lies in Hedge's statement, "I suppose in the end I’m not a mystic." IMNSHO what is needed at this point in our history is a wholesale revolution in our worldview, something on a par with The Enlightenment. In this case, however, the revolution would not be in the direction of reason as happened in the Enlightenment. Instead it would involve the emergence of an ecological awareness, a pervasive understanding of the intrinsic interconnectedness of all elements of our world.

When we can finally see that the development of a new financial instrument in Geneva is connected at some level to the health of riparian wetlands in Togo we may have a hope of bringing this horrifying Koyaanisquatsi back into balance. Such an extreme shift in perception may appear somewhat "mystical" to those who are still firmly entrenched in the orthodox view of our situation, but it offers the only sustainable hope I've found in half a decade of searching.

[DeSwiss]

44. "Such an extreme shift in perception may appear somewhat mystical...."

"mystical" "improbable...."

[GliderGuider]

49. Improbable? Perhaps.

But we have to start somewhere. I have more long-term hope for this approach than I do in the fixes being touted in every arena from energy to agriculture to economics to politics. Fixing the problems in these areas may give us the breathing room we need to implement a truly long-term solution, but I don't think that such fixes are the final answer.

The nice thing is that adopting such an ecological outlook is something a person can do in addition to working on individual fixes. The shift also turns out to be personally beneficial on a number of levels. Win/win is the name of the game.

[Desertrose]

61. Without such a shift...nothing will change.n/t

[Desertrose]

59. Koyaanisquatsi ...that's where we seem to be....

Couldn't agree with this more. Thanks.

"IMNSHO what is needed at this point in our history is a wholesale revolution in our worldview, something on a par with The Enlightenment. In this case, however, the revolution would not be in the direction of reason as happened in the Enlightenment. Instead it would involve the emergence of an ecological awareness, a pervasive understanding of the intrinsic interconnectedness of all elements of our world.

When we can finally see that the development of a new financial instrument in Geneva is connected at some level to the health of riparian wetlands in Togo we may have a hope of bringing this horrifying Koyaanisquatsi back into balance. Such an extreme shift in perception may appear somewhat "mystical" to those who are still firmly entrenched in the orthodox view of our situation, but it offers the only sustainable hope I've found in half a decade of searching."

[ozone_man]

88. "wholesale revolution in our worldview"

I think so too. Humans have been too successful a species and have to adjust to a different world view, compatible with a sustainable civilization and world. How to get from where we are, this mass consumer, mass media society, endless growth, endless war economy, toward a culture that reveres nature, and seeks not to dominate it or profit from it. I suspect that it may be hopeless, but we must try. A revolution is required.

[XemaSab]

147. Capitalist problems do not have capitalist solutions

n/t

[Doctor_J]

148. The Enlightenment would not have happened if Cable "News" and

hate radio had existed at that time. The coup d'etat that Hedges recognizes has been accomplished in large part due to the media takeover by the forces of evil. the brainwashing with right-wing propaganda is breathtaking.

[Roland99]

36. Society is too caught up in iPhones, Kindles, and poking each other on Facebook

to do anything of substance that would effect *real* change.

Too distracted by the shiny objects in the stores.

Too distracted by cleavage on TV.

[Grinchie]

162. That's why I hang out with nudists....

As a traveler of the world, I find it amazing that America still clings to this prudish attitude towards the human body.

I personally think it's the cause of all of the psychopathic associations to sex and the cause for the diseased relationships that dominate america.

Furthermore, it also fuels the 15 billion dollar a year porn industry when one makes a process that is burned into just about every DNA known on Eearth somehow wicked and Taboo.

Hollywood, Mass Media, the Church, Governments, the Military... You name it, they get to frame sexuality as some sort of social control mechanism.

[femrap]

180. Sometimes I think the only

savior we have will be Mother Nature when she shakes the planet and we end up with massive land mass changes. Then their entire multi-national Corporation Fascist system would come to a halt.

[Roland99]

309. I'm thinking it will more like Stephen King's book, "Cell"

[femrap]

325. I don't read his

books...just not my taste. I never went to another scary movie after seeing 'Psycho' and from I hear of today's flicks, that was pretty tame.

Life is scary enough. :hide:

[caraher]

38. I recently recieved a fundraising "poll" from the Dems

They listed 14 issues and wanted me to rank them in order of importance, and not a single item on the list included climate change or any environmental issue (unless you count "energy independence," which to my mind doesn't count because "drill, baby, drill" would count as a measure toward "energy independence" in the usual political calculus).

I did a write-in and ranked climate/environment #1. Blow up the ecosystem under which we know we can thrive and nothing else - the economy, wars - will matter.

[bvar22]

197. I'll bet none of those 14 issues were:

*Election Security (Transparent, verifiable elections)

*Publicly Funded Elections

*Instant Run Off Polling

After the stolen election of 2000, and the questionable election, you would think the Transparent, Verifiable Elections would be a Front Burner Issue with the Democratic Party. It is supported by over 90%, Democrats & Republicans....
so WHY the silence from the Democratic Party leadership?
.
.
.
because elections are too important to be left up to the people.
REAL elections might interfere with the Power Sharing Agreement between the Leadership of BOTH Parties.

[caraher]

286. True

High on my list as well...

[DirkGently]

39. Kitten hater.

Great post. Sobering and great.

[northernlights]

46. anybody who thinks they can fundamentally change society's structures

by protesting, voting, writing letters, advocating that others change their ways, making new laws, etc. is living in fantasy land.

We must *be* the change we want to create. One individual at a time. Each of us must change how we live.

It's hard work to have your foot in two worlds at one time, but until things really crumble, that is pretty much what it takes. Work at one job to pay for the transition to a new life...and concurrently work at learning and building the new life.

Everybody needs to take stock of where they are at and start making changes. If you can walk or bike to work, do so. If you can start a community gardening project in vacant city lots, do so. If you can move to a more rural area, do so. If you have enough sun to cook solar, do so. One by one, see what changes you need to make...and make them. One step at a time.

Only by dis-investing in big energy will you starve big energy and concurrently free yourself (and earth) of it.

I moved to a mini-farm in Maine 7 years ago when W had his Iraq-attack. I knew we were done then...I just didn't realize how long it would take for the end to begin in earnest.

I have learned to garden and make medicine from herbs. I am now learning to cook solar and next year I will be learning to clam and start raising chickens for eggs. Hopefully within 2-3 years, I will convert to wind and solar to heat in the winter and get water from my well. Or maybe things will get warm enough up here that I won't need heat in the winter. And here's a hint -- the less expensive, quick ROI projects help to fund the bigger ones. For example: a few inexpensive changes in my home cut my oil use dramatically and saved me ~$1,000 last year alone. My most recent investment -- a solar cooker -- will pay for itself within a few months in reduced propane costs. That savings will add up fairly quickly to at least a down payment on a windmill.

My point is, calling on others to change their ways will NEVER work. TPTB already have their escape plans. They don't give a flying eff about you or anybody outside their small circle of friends and servants. It's already everybody for themselves.

Quit whining. Just freakin' do it.

[earth mom]

103. Great post and great advice!

:thumbsup:

[GliderGuider]

122. +100

:thumbsup: from the Great White North (of the border).

[Grinchie]

163. Exactly. We need to get out of the Gasoline consumption business

Because this alone exposes the Ponzi scheme.

America runs on Gasoline, and with the current economic depression, hardly anyone is driving as much as they used to. Now the regular supply and demand rules should apply to the Oil Industry, but just yesterday, Oil reached a new high of 80 dollars a barrel on account of the great economic rebound... Uh Huh.

Sorry charlie, but the great economic rebound is smoke and mirrors. The fact is that there is so much oil parked in every available Oil storage container, tanker ship, tank farm, etc, they they are spending money just to store it! The reality is that oil should be much lower than it is now, so why do we see prices rising, if not for a big military need in the near future?

Remember that the US Military consumes about 35% of the total annual Oil used by America...

I do see the reality creeping into the framework and people are now starting to prepare, but you are right, most people are in Ostrich mode simply because their head hurts when they think.

[defendandprotect]

254. Pentagon uses 80% of the oil -- making it a "national security issue" ...

No oil -- no wars --

BP = "national security" --

Actually they should be tossed out of the country and barred from our waters!!


NATIONALIZE the oil industry!!

[Grinchie]

281. Personally, I say ban the Oil industry

The technology to do so is held by the Military as a National Security item, and is considered destabilizing to the Balance of Power, so they hide it from the world, but the Water Fuel Cell does exist, and big oils days are numbered.

[defendandprotect]

313. Oil industry propaganda -- billions spent over 50 years ... seemingly works...???

Last I heard military was thinking of a solar air force???!!!

Can we find some way to uninvent the dollar?





:)

[Grinchie]

323. Yes, shift to Cocoa Beans like the Oompa Loompas

Cocoa Beans are certainly backed by something tangible, compared to the funny money they pull out of their asses.

[defendandprotect]

261. We need to uninvent the dollar bill -- !!

Patriarchy/Organized Patriarchal Religion/Capitalism -

the Unholy Trinity!

[Liberation Angel]

47. The Nazis, backed by the Bushes, Rockefeller (Exxon/Chase), Morgan/Dulles WON the Second WORLD War

The Americans who financed Hitler (and who had tried a coup aganst FDR in 1932 (see General Smedley Butler) were

NEVER prosecuted.

NEVER had to pay reparations for their crimes at Auschwitz et al.

Never were imprisoned or charged with Treason.

AND

They used the looted gold from the Holocaust and all the Holocaust profits to LEEP their power and control of military, intel, media and goivernment after the war instituting the FOURTH REICH with their own Gestapo and SS in control of the whole shebang.

Anyone who stood up to them was gunned down (JFK, RFK, MLK, Malcolm, Mossadegh, Lumumba, Allende, Diem, Che, etc etc etc)

So this OP is RIGHT.

But the coup happened in 1945!

The Nazis instituted their 2000 year planned Fascist Fourth Reich and based it in the good ol' USA.

They chucked the Swastika as their logo. (some say it morphed into a Dubya in 2000 as its newest "branded: logo) and buried the lies and the secrets and burned the corpses.

Then they went to work.

You can learn more about this at my Youtube site (if you look around) :


www.youtube.com/user/LiberationAngels

Please visit and look through some of the materials I am collecting as a work in progress for a book/film on these subjects

Uploads to come soon.

[Dennis Donovan]

168. I'm anxiously awaiting your materials - just subscribed to your YouTube channel...

:thumbsup:

The Business Plot was only Act I. The full coup was completed on November 22, 1963, IMO...

[Liberation Angel]

252. There is much more to come

But the book comes first.

I am negotiating with folks now.

But look around the site and please tell others and send links.

All knowledge and awareness of this stuff helps in the fight against fascism.

FIRST

is to understand it.

Next, is to act to oppose it.

Finally is to subdue it.

But fascism never gets totally eradicated. Like THE PLAGUE, it may go dormant - but it van never die completely as long as people are willing to be vicious power mongers.

PS Don't be anxious.

We are winning.

Venceremos!

[Nite Owl]

257. I subscribed

looking forward to watching some of your stuff and your book too.

[Liberation Angel]

319. Cool - I saw the new subs. THANKS!

slowly but surely if all the stars align and it is willed by the spirits that goivern these things.

[defendandprotect]

263. Same with the '63 coup on our people's government . . .

Evidently, even attaining the position of president no longer guarantees you

have access to any truth -- seems Clinton tried to get info on JFK coup --

and certainly Carter tried to get UFO info -- he was was told by Poppy Bush, then

head of CIA, that he did not have high enough clearance to see the info!

Iow, to see info on UFO's you need a higher security clearance than to see info on

atomic weapons!!

[Liberation Angel]

320. Hell FDR wanted to prosecute the Bushes and Rockefellers for backing Nazis

and he wound up dead in what his son in law said was an assassination.

For what its worth, I think the most dangerous creatures in thre universe are these Bushian fascists and their reptilian followers.

[defendandprotect]

328. I've wondered about that . . .

Interesting that he also unloaded Henry Wallace for the last race!!

Imagine how much more beautifully this world would have been turning had

Henry Wallace been in the WH!!??

They also say that Adlai Stevenson should be on the list, as well --

My history of it all kinda begins with Dag Hammarskjold -- UN -- that's the first

one I ever heard of. Imagine a lot more before that and afterwards.

Never heard the story about the son-in-law -- that would be Anne's husband?

If this happened, I imagine Eleanor knew? Also interesting that then, it might have

also been arranged that he did in the somewhat "scandalous" circumstances of being

with an old flame!

Do you mean "reptilian" with any special thinking behind that . . . ??

Or simply, every day kinda reference?

If you have any other info on the son-in-law's comments, please send them along.

Who was he?



:)

[Liberation Angel]

329. FDR did not dump Henry Wallace, he was maneuvered out by neocon dems

That is a story in itself (the convention was actually evacuated to prevent the vote to keep Wallace).

I do not remember the name of the book exactly but I will see what I can find. A google might work as it was a published book, but I do not know details re: which son in law etc. But I did read the relevent parts years ago.

Maybe wiki would help.

I use reptilian in the murderous generic sense not the alien foolology point of view (yet who the hell knows about that? - Bush is pretty scaley!"

The founder of Air America Radio, Sheldon Drobny, wrote a piece on the Wallace fiasco convention and how they did it.

It was the DLC-like Chicago mobsters who orchestrated it (maybe Daley, but I am not sure if he was around then)

[defendandprotect]

330. Whoa . . . sometime I'd like to hear that story . . .

That is a story in itself (the convention was actually evacuated to prevent the vote to keep Wallace).

-- so Truman was actually the favorite of the "neocon Dem" group --


Don't go to a great deal of trouble -- just a lead here and there --

at the moment I'm having a virus problem with my computer so don't really want to do

searches right now, but I can follow up next week, I hope!

And thanks for the clues you've provided --


What Americans have to begin to understand is that there is only one way the right wing

can rise and that's thru violence -- political violence, deception, rw propaganda,

black mail, etal.


I'll be looking for your posts -- and will check to see if you have a Journal here --





Best wishes --

:)


PS: That Convention must have been a strong signal to FDR that he was in physical danger --

again!

[Liberation Angel]

332. Here's a link about the questions re: FDR's death (CT, etc.)

the son in law, Curtis Dall's, book is available but it is probably pretty unreliable in many ways (although who knows?). I can't find a google review of it with excerpts and I do not have a copy but they are out there id you want to read it.

The issue is raised here in this google book search result:


http://books.google.com/books?id=rTnr3uThJ24C&pg=PA221&dq=Emanuel+Josephson+%22The+Strange+Death+of+Franklin+D.+Roosevelt%22&hl=en&ei=VPFaTIOQN4H78Abg8ezjAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Emanuel%20Josephson%20%22The%20Strange%20Death%20of%20Franklin%20D.%20Roosevelt%22&f=false


There were few witnesses, the coffin was sealed, no autopsy, and apprently Stalin himself conjectured that FDR was poisoned.

See the book linked above at page 102 Chapter Six: Train of Secrets"

I have no real horse in this race. It might have been just a hemmorhage or not: but with no autopsy we will never no so for me it remains a possibility that he was poisoned or his doctor was complicir or VERY neglectful (which is apparent from the article. I know nothing about his doctor but if you were gonna "get" someone, getting the doctor to "help" or fail to provide proper treatment is a great way to do it.

Cheers,

LA

[defendandprotect]

336. Thanks again - n/t

[Liberation Angel]

334. One more link

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:B6Z5WdvB86QJ:www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres4/dall.pdf+Dall+%22My+Exploited+Father+in+Law%22&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi3vfqKK519LkTKxVoanMv7QBG1ZtgzBgKIUN1lh4x8PE5paSsCfDPj7VlPEULLZKxobiGcf3firwTbU8e9VnjYZdW_Pg8TNJN-jDi3LcmSrW5BpI4q6PaliIiunjHRaklpu5is&sig=AHIEtbQ-Tl-XGMKsSwHr68oddyLeyCqHGQ

Be warned - this is published by a notrious antiSemtic publishing house YET as a historical document it is impoertant to understand the perspective of disinformationsist like Curtis Dall (FDR's son in law). I.ee. Know your enemy.

The references are not as clear as I remember them being except that there are some interesting details in Dall's account. Apparently there was a belief that FDR was cremated and that this is why Stalin said he must gave been poisoned (no autopsy also). The other book sites witnesses who claim to have seen the body in the casket so who the hell knows. Dall seems unreliable, but he confirms that there were :issues: about exactly how FDR died.

I tend to go with the hemorrhage death, but this is only based on total conjecture. But who knows? without an autopsy and murder of some sort seems equally plausible.

At this poiint getting to the bottom of JFK's murder is more relevent.(Plus Dall implies Morannthau was involved (again the ZIONISTS he implies) when my posiyion is that Morganthau was helping FDR to try and Nail the Bushes etc.

An interesting set of historical issues. But really unresolveable.

[defendandprotect]

338. I'll save the links for another day . . .

but very interested -- and thank you again --

The new info about the convention manipulations to get Wallace out, makes me even

more suspicious.

When I can again, I'll begin to look on the internet and at my library -- etal.

Think Anna was married twice?

And, just as an aside re Dall, Swartzenegger may have played a vile little role of

disinformationalist in the JFK, Jr. death???

We also see that FDR's death didn't work very well for Stalin/Russia -- with

the bright shiny new Cold War being introduced by Churchill/Truman --


Food "poisoning" would seem unlikely --- and booze was shared by all regularly --

but tampering with medicine might have been the way?


b]At this poiint getting to the bottom of JFK's murder is more relevent.(Plus Dall implies Morannthau was involved (again the ZIONISTS he implies) when my posiyion is that Morganthau was helping FDR to try and Nail the Bushes etc.

Well, without truth hearings, probably will always be completely unresolvable --

but much info is known -- private investigators have done a great job -- and many

have leaked truths. Jack Ruby told us a great deal.

Yes -- Morganthau has always been considered a left wing hero by me -- ???


And -- didn't know that FDR was going to try to go after them --

I have an interesting book on that issue -- Trading with the Enemy -- I'll have to

look and see if he mentions any of that intention???

Thanks again --

[Liberation Angel]

341. John Loftus says in "Secret War Against the Jews" that FDR wanted to nail the Nazi backers

Morganthau was helping him. But FDR did not have all the juice he needed to take them down and did noy have enough political support at the lower levels (Congress primarily). Rockefeller and Bushes and Morgan (via the Dulles) had the juice.

Whatever FDR's cause of death - the fact is that if he had lived or Wallace had become president it would be a different world and these fascists MIGHT well have NOT been able to institute the Fourth Reich. But what ifs don't count really.

What is is.

The fascists won those rounds and keep winning. But they are vulnerable as long as we have the freedom to keep vigilant and learn from the real history.

[defendandprotect]

343. I own that book . . .

and it's one of three books I've never finished because there's so much in them to

be studied . . . the other two are "The Beast Reawakens" by Lee Martin --

and "Rise of the Fourth Reich" by Jim Marrs.

I loved reading about Wallace -- and the party he started afterwards -- a lot of history

I'd like more time to review but not always time.

I'll follow your posts --

[Liberation Angel]

344. Check out my youtube site: LiberationAngels (link)

I have a lot of stuff for a film/multimedia piece on fascism, Fourth Reich, History etc.

www.youtube.com/user/LiberationAngels

I am preparing to start uploading videos myself, but there is a lot of really good archival info and other stuff.

Read my comments and the article linked there in the Smithsonian Magazine which I worked on.

While I am anonymous there my bio is there and while some of my playlists are for personal projects - the main thrust is antiFascism and exposure of the Fourth Reich and its methods.

A few of the artists there I have personal connections with and I have interviewed some of the key figures mentioned for this project or these projects.

[defendandprotect]

346. Ok . . . will check it soon . . saved --

[bertman]

48. Thanks for feeding me, kpete. I've believed this for a long time. Rec. nt

[seafan]

50. "..corporate entities that seek to keep us ignorant and disempowered and stop us from fighting back"

The points Chris Hedges makes in this recent online chat on Global Warming are critically important to understand.


Thanks for bringing this to our attention, kpete.

11:03 Truthdig
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:03:04 GMT

Reader question from Alias—Laguna Niguel
The great Thomas Pynchon has attributed the failure of the left to communicate with blue-collar workers to the “presence of real, invisible class force fields.” Do you agree? If so, what can be done to overcome these barriers?


11:05 Chris Hedges
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:05:22 GMT
Comment:
(To Alias) Well, the barriers can’t be overcome now because the liberal class betrayed the working class. It should have walked out with the passage of NAFTA, but it didn’t, and it continued to support. We have a working class but not one that can earn wages with pensions. The largest, most catastrophic mistake that the liberals made was to embrace capitalism when they should have embraced the workers. The fact that they continued to speak in a hypocritical language where they claimed to care about the working class when they betrayed them made them not only impotent but also a ridicule.

10:59 Question from Peter From Ontario
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:59:15 GMT
Comment: Hi Chris, thanks for your inspiration. Could you outline concretely how we might go about turning things around?


11:01 Chris Hedges
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:01:44 GMT
Comment:
(To Peter) We have to stop believing that we can effect change through established political or social organizations or electoral politics, and I think that still remains a huge hurdle for us people who in the end, through accommodation of fear and very clever advertising, are herded like sheep into a dysfunctional system, which is how so many people who should have known better voted for Obama. The environmental crisis that we’re about to face will be even more catastrophic than the economic, and we have to, on a personal level, reconsider how we relate to the society at large and to the ecosystem. We have both personal and social decisions to make. At this point most people are not willing to make those choices or take those steps.

11:05 Question From Jason
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:05:26 GMT
Comment: I listened to your chat with Derrick Jensen and I guess my question is the question he asked, what do we do, the average person that is? Join Greenpeace, run for political office, start a farm in the country and live completely off the grid, hide in the woods and weather the storm? I feel like nothing anybody says or does, no form of action, can stop the machine we call civilization from destroying humanity and world along with it.

11:11 Chris Hedges
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:11:47 GMT
Comment:
(To Jason) Well, the coup d’etat is over, and they won. We lost. And now we have to learn to cope with it. It is very clear that the engines of corporatism and globalization are going to kill the ecosystem, no matter how many dead zones are created in the Gulf of Mexico or protests organized. We are going to have to make some very serious decisions about acts that dispute a system that in theological terms is a system of death and exploitation. And yet even then, it’s probably too late. If you read closely the science on global warming, it’s disrupting, even if we stop emissions, global warming will accelerate because of what has already been emitted. I think we have to begin to prepare for collapse, and if you want to survive, that’s going to mean access to a local food source. So, in the end I’m with Camus, I don’t think we’re going to fool ourselves into thinking we can make a change. It’s all hijacked, the political system, financial system ... hijacked military complex, it’s hijacked, even all of our social and educational systems. I’ve taught at places like Princeton and they all function like corporations. We’ve allowed these corporations to snuff out all voices of sanity and decency and why we listen to this garbage and why we watch it. ... Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow are as bad as the right wing; they are all playing the same wing, nobody is addressing the institutional methods that are strangling us. I don’t care if it’s from the left or right, it all acts as diversion to keep us in a state of self-delusion.

11:19 Question From Alias
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:19:26 GMT
Comment: What does the fact that Bolivian peasants were able to roll back the government’s plan to privatize the water supply while we here can only sit back ask people like yourself and Chomsky “What can I do” say about us?


11:21 Chris Hedges
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:21:46 GMT
Comment:
(To Alias) Well, as a culture, we’ve been rendered captive to electronic hallucinations that have disempowered us. One of the most pernicious elements of the electronic age is that it destroys the cohesion of real communities. People retreat into virtual communities, you can walk down the street where I live in Princeton at night and see that sort of glow of monitors that keep people inside their homes, and in a future civilization people will be living in cells called hives that essentially sever them from their neighbors.

11:22 Question From MK Taylor
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:22:18 GMT
Comment: Why is it thought that the only habitable places on earth after climate change will be located in the northern extremities?


11:24 Chris Hedges
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:24:03 GMT
Comment:
(To MK Taylor) Because the droughts that are already gripping areas like the Southwest, temporarily push precipitation and hot air northwards, but eventually those droughts and heat extend further and further into northern environments. But there are good descriptions of this in books by Lovelock, for instance, or reports by (James) Hansen.

11:24 Truthdig
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:24:08 GMT
Comment:
Question from Richard Nixon: Chris, in your recent article you wrote “Why c<...>ontinue to obey the laws and dictates of our executioners?” Can you expand on this a little. I took this as laws may need to be broken to get decent climate change reform.


11:28 Chris Hedges
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:28:00 GMT
Comment:
(To Richard Nixon) Well, it’s very clear that the people who control the power systems have no interest in power change reforms because it would mean their extinction. So those of us who care about effecting change have to find mechanisms outside of the political structure, which Henry Thoreau wrote about in “Civil Disobedience,” where he analyzed an individual’s to the state and the moral questions of whether human beings should obey laws when they are immoral or, in this case, self-destructive. And I think that the questions that Thoreau asks are ones that we have to ask, and I think we have to follow in Thoreau’s footsteps where he writes about what he calls the machine. Thoreau writes about how many people around him are opposed to slavery and the war, but rather than expressing their opinions they sit around and do nothing about it. He said they hesitate, regret, sometimes petition, but nothing that actually has an effect.

11:28 Question From Michael Marsh
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:28:04 GMT
Comment: Can there be an alliance between the philosophical, libertarian right and the moral left to confront the duopoly that is destroying the planet and our country?


11:28 Chris Hedges
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:28:52 GMT
Comment:
(To Michael Marsh) There is no left in this country, that’s the problem.

(Continued answer to Michael Marsh) I suppose on some issues, yes, on issues on freedom from search and seizure, freedom of the press, other civil liberties. Many libertarians and firm supporters of free market capitalism and minimal government regulation and taxation, they reject the welfare state, and these are issues where the traditional left will not be in agreement with traditional libertarians.

11:31 Question from Peter From Ontario
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:31:11 GMT
Comment: I’m a bit cynical about the idea of uprooting the powerful institutions that have created this mess. I realize this is throwing you a softball, but don’t you think anyone that tries to rebel will be squashed like a bug? I mean, I look around at my family and neighbours, and see people that have been indoctrinated by the same message, “focus on yourself right now and don’t worry about anything that will happen later on”. Whenever I share your column with family and friends, they always give the same response—quit trying to wreck the good times for the rest of us and get a real job.


11:41 Chris Hedges
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:41:38 GMT
Comment:
Well, America has produced a country of people who’ve never had to grow up. They live in this illusion that reality is not an impediment to what they desire. They can have everything they want, they just have to dig deep within themselves, grasp that they are truly exceptional or believe that Jesus can produce miracles.

It’s a form of magical thinking that is fed to us from the media to the corporations, from Oprah to Hollywood to corporatism to the Christian right, and it has created a society where we are captivated by illusion, an illusion about who we are and where we’re going, and that’s a very common characteristic among dying civilizations that lack the emotional fortitude to grasp that the world’s are crumbling around them so they retreat into the magical.

If you read Cicero or Joseph Roth, Freud (end of Austro-Hungarian) they saw very clearly, both the disintegration and the capacity of people around them to accept it. The danger is when you remain in a state of illusion, you essentially perpetuate an infantilism that leaves you unprepared, physiologically, intellectually and emotionally for collapse, and when collapse comes, you react like children, you search for a savior, a demagogue, someone who promises vengeance, moral renewal and fantastic visions of a new glory.

It’s an old, old story, and we are not immune to the cycles of human history. The Greeks did not believe in a linear time, they believed that societies had a period of growth, maturation and decay, and I think the Greeks are right. So when your family doesn’t want to hear, they are retreating into the far more comforting arena of illusions that are provided for them by corporate entities that seek to keep us ignorant and disempowered and stop us from fighting back.

And will they crush us like bugs? Probably. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t resist. Resistance is a moral imperative. The problem with the left is that it was seduced by the practical, and that is what killed it as a moral force. We have a commitment to non-historical values, justice, ... protection of life, love, which are of course deemed by the world to be impractical.

But which keep alive that possibility of another way of being and another form of community, and at this point I think we have to look at the Middle Ages and the monastic communities that kept alive learning, humanities and life in a time of darkness so that these great contributions of human history are not lost, and that becomes a battle worth fighting because as we enter an age of barbarism, the snuffing out of these great forces of humanism will be tragic for the human race and I think we have to focus much of our energy in trying to protect these non-historical forces, commitments to values, and that’s going to entail rebellion and perhaps even great personal risk.

But I think it is worth doing because at this point we can create a structure that can disarm corporatism, but because we can at least protect those virtues that permit people to live in ways that they are not slaves.

Corporatism: Will the real Enemy of The People, please stand up.



The People want to focus on the Real Enemy.

Only then, will the despicable lies we have been told to keep us demoralized and fighting each other, vaporize.

[inna]

299. thank you for posting this, Seafan. nt

[Stinky The Clown]

51. Another hearty K&R

[Yavin4]

52. There Is No Way To Prepare for an Environmental Apocalypse

Nor a financial apocalypse either. Whatever food source that you find will soon be overrun by the maurading and starving masses desperate for survival.

And to this part, I say BULLSHIT:

We have to stop believing that we can effect change through established political or social organizations or electoral politics, and I think that still remains a huge hurdle for us people who in the end, through accommodation of fear and very clever advertising, are herded like sheep into a dysfunctional system, which is how so many people who should have known better voted for Obama.

Right there. That's one of the prime reasons why America is not as Progressive as European democracies. It's that fucking self-defeatist, woe-is-me, constant state of depression attitude. Instead of actually organizing people on the ground, instead of working harder for change, we just give up and whine like babies.

It's not about Obama. Nor the Democrats. Nor the DLC. Nor the media. It's about us as a fucking bunch of whiny idiots who fall into deep stages of depression at the fucking drop of a hat.

[bvar22]

58. There will be no change until...

the Working Class, the remnants of the Middle Class, the Poor, and the Apathetic realize we have more in common with each other than we have in common with the Ruling Class of either Political Party.

THAT day is still a ways off, but getting closer.
Until that time, Hedges has some good suggestions.

[Yavin4]

64. Hedges Is Full Of Shit

He knows that negativity and depresssion are big sellers among American Progressives. Unlike our Euro counterparts, we gravitate mightily towards the Negative Nellies of the world. We love being depressed because IT EXCUSES OUR LAZY-ASSED INACTION.

In Europe, they take actions into their own hands. They force their governments to listen to them. Their governments spend $7 trillion a decade on their social programs instead of defense.

Not in America. Instead of building off of the win by Obama and forming a strong Progressive coalition, we run into the corner and cry because major climate change legislation wasn't passed on Jan. 22, 2009.

[bvar22]

70. Election 2008 was a crushing defeat for Progressives.

"Hope & Change" was a very successful Corporate Marketing Scam...nothing more.
The PROOF?
The White House was actively campaigning FOR Anti-LABOR Centrist Blue Dogs (Lincoln) and Republicans! (Specter) in the Democratic Primaries.
Obama and the Democratic Party Leadership have REJECTED and marginalized the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party. ("Fucking Retards")
He gave the Republican Party a seat at the table (HCR), but banished and ridiculed the Progressives.

Keep on believing that all we have to do is elect more "Democrats", and everything will be peachy.
Some of us have read the Writing on the Wall.

I will STAND on my original post:
"until the Working Class, the remnants of the Middle Class, the Poor, and the Apathetic realize we have more in common with each other than we have in common with the Ruling Class of either Political Party, there will be NO "CHANGE".

BTW: "Lazy and Inactive" are NOT adjectives that describe me.

[ProSense]

72. No, it wasn't

Progressives and Democrats are still working to improve the world. People like Hedges are resigned to crying doom and giving up.

[bvar22]

87. Working to improve the World....

..for some people.

<comments in Parenthesis are Mine>

"In a Thursday interview, White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel argued that rather than recoiling against Obama, business leaders should be grateful for his support on at least a half-dozen counts:

his advocacy of greater international trade and education reform open markets despite union skepticism; (Union Busting, Low cost foreign (slave) labor, no environmental protections)

his rejection of calls from some quarters to nationalize banks during the financial meltdown;
(money for nothing, preserved the broken system)

the rescue of the automobile industry; (Union Busting)

the fact that the overhaul of health care preserved the private delivery system (the people who broke Health Care, and even this statement is a LIE. They "preserved" the For Profit Health Insurance Industry, and even Mandated Customers and Profits for said industry);

the fact that billions in the stimulus package benefited business with lucrative new contracts,
(targeted the already rich)

and that financial regulation reform will take away the uncertainty that existed with a broken, pre-crash regulatory apparatus. (Everybody KNOWS that re-instating Glass-Steagall is THE fix)

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=B2F85DDF-18FE-70B2-A835FE1E7FA8D74C

[ProSense]

92. "the rescue of the automobile industry; (Union Busting)"

From the same people who denounced the admnistration for not bailing out the auto industry before he actually did. It was said that he was not doing so because auto industry workers are unionized.

Spin is not fact.

[RetroLounge]

191. Yay! Blue Links!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

RL

[ProSense]

74. Here's another

positive effort

Of course, what's net neutrality when we're doomed?

[Yavin4]

77. If Any ONE Election Cycle Can Defeat The American Progressive Movement

then that speaks volumes about how shallow such a movement is. Again, in England, a purely facist leader like Margaret Thatcher was PM for years. She even gave aid and comfort to Pinochet when he was on trial.

Did Thatcher defeat the Progressives there? Hell, fucking no. They had single payer health care before, during, and after Thatcher.

[bvar22]

102. "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor??!!!"

LOL

I don't believe "Its Over", and I don't read Hedges piece as "gloom and doom".

I DO read it as things are going to get worse for the lower 98%, maybe much worse.
It would be wise to take some precautions.

I believe he is correct in this assessment.

[Gordan Shumway]

96. +1

:applause:

[azmouse]

100. There is no way to say it better.

:thumbsup:

[ProSense]

110. "cry because major climate change legislation wasn't passed on Jan. 22, 2009"

It has become a personality contest for some. When Kerry-Boxer was on the table, it was rejected, then replaced by Kerry-Lieberman, which was derided to death by same people complaining that the efforts to pass climate change have been abandoned. Al Franken and Feingold are among the 14 coal supporting Senators, but they are the new progressive darlings while the critics deride (deservingly) conservative Dems. It cannot be ignored that the obstacles to some progressive legislation are not just conservative Dems and Republicans.

The DISCLOSE Act is being opposed by the ACLU and the AFL-CIO.

This country needs an Orange or a Green revolution, but all people like Hedges are doing is declaring the apocalypse is upon us and explaining why we need to learn to accept it.

When the hell did crying all hope is lost and we're doomed become the progressive call to arms?

[earth mom]

130. How do you build on the win of Obama when he isn't building anything himself?

:wtf:

[XemaSab]

154. We tried to form a progressive coalition with Obama

but Obama didn't want to form a progressive coalition with us. :(

And furthermore, Obama had THE BRASS RING for creating environmental change in the form of the BP oil spill, and he did NOTHING.

[defendandprotect]

256. Do you ever read the many "conservative" FEAR-BASED posts here . . .??

He knows that negativity and depresssion are big sellers among American Progressives.

And WHAT's the source for that view?

Conservatives here, perhaps?

There no more "fear-based" thinking than that dished up by conservatives here at DU.


Obviously, when Americans all begin to understand their stake in this -- when they understand

how they've been lied to, we might get somewhere. This inertia is caused by too great a trust

in government -- and the fact that Americans have never really been political.

What there was of it was dependent upon Democratic Party involvement in neighborhoods which has

long been gone. Government used to play a role as well in actually explaining to Americans how

things worked -- no longer. Where the off the cuff, spontaneous political speeches/press

conferences of FDR or JFK?

What could be more obvious than Global Warming -- ? And yet the billions invested in a campaign

of lies and deception by the oil industry still goes on -- though only ExxonMobil may be active

still? This has been going on 50 years -- America has known about Global Warming since the late

1950's!! Nature holds the final cards in this "bird with one wing" fiasco -- !!


I don't see anyone "running into a corner" ...

It was up to Obama to "build up" on the win -- rather he's done the reverse.

We need bold steps -- NATIONALIZE oil industry -- and certainly giving $36 BILLION in

loan guarantees to the NUCLEAR ENERGY INDUSTRY is a step off a cliff!!

[Jonny]

79. Re:There Is No Way To Prepare for an Environmental Apocalypse

Citizens have to try to effect change. Talking on web forums will not effect any change. I agree to that.

But, I see change all the time. It is not official and it does not come from government or voters. It comes from enterpreneurship and from consumers making a change.

There are a lot of green products and technologies and also organically and sustainably raised food products available now. A few years ago they weren't around. People are choosing to buy gas saving cars, locally produced food, and appliances that use less electricity. The pace of change is very slow, but there is change. Seek to accelerate this change with your own actions. Don't discourage this change by writing the depressing, demoralizing, and defeatist messages such ahs the one Chris Hedges has posted here. One might even think that Hedges is from the Right Wing Corporate group who writes here to demoralize us and slow us down.

Look at all the press coverage that the BP oil spill got? It literally was in every medium every day. The corporatists didn't stop the horrid visions of the results of oil additiction from reaching the populace. So now will the masses act on their believes by reducing their oil use and looking for alternatives? Some will. Others will not, and it will be their choice to do so, not becuase the full horror of an oil economy was witheld from them. It will be for other reasons (which I must refrain from elaborating on in a polite society).

[GliderGuider]

108. When someone points out the futility of changing out regular light bulbs

I reply that changing a light bulb changes something much bigger than the light bulb - it changes the person who changed the bulb.

Such seemingly small acts are very powerful. When you decide to make a change like that, it's the end result of a thought process that includes the idea, "I don't like the state of the world, and I'm going to do something about it." Such acts are the seeds that give birth to the ecological consciousness I talked about above.

Every time I convince someone to make one change for an ecological reason I have committed a revolutionary act.

We need a revolution, but not an old-fashioned one with guns and bombs. The revolutionaries we need today are those who are brave enough to blow up the concrete of their own learned beliefs to make way for the growth of a new, life-affirming world view.

[CoffeeCat]

90. Or people who have a nervous...

...breakdown when their washing machine breaks--and go on Prozac to make them feel better and Lunesta to
help them sleep at night.

Everyone thinks they need to pop a pill when they have a hangnail, or if they experience any kind of anxiety.

We are drugged out and mentally blunted because of big Pharma.

[Fumesucker]

126. So you think that Americans are fundamentally different human beings than Europeans?

If you took an American at birth and raised them in Europe as a European then they would be different from other Europeans, they would be a "whiny baby" instead of someone who organized and got things done?

[Yavin4]

169. Americans Are Raised To Be "Whiny Babies"

who expect OTHERS to do for them instead of themselves. European nations PROVIDE a strong social safety net for their populations REGARDLESS of who is the current elected leader or not.

In America, Progressives expect Obama to deliver change. In Europe, Progressives demand that all of their leaders deliver.

Secondly, there are nativists and racists in Europe, but they still organize and vote their economic interests ahead of their nativists and racists sentiments.

[centerdem]

193. Thank you!

Alot of people think there is something to whine about now, wait until president palin takes office!

[Spheric]

54. K&R /nt

[MilesColtrane]

60. So....what I take from this is:

We are fucked as a species.

There is nothing we can do to change it.

There is no solution, but by dropping out of society, ala the Unibomber (minus the targeted killing of course), we can stay alive for a little bit.

I do not subscribe to his magazine

[Greyhound]

62. Food!? You want food? Do you think it just grows on trees? Don't you know that you are entitled

to nothing? Next thing, you'll be whining about 'rights'...:eyes:
:kick: & R

[ConservativeDemocrat]

68. Reads like a paranoid delusional rant

We have to stop believing... We have both personal and social decisions to make.

Well, the coup d’etat is over, and they won.

Yes, it's all the pure and perfect "we" vs mysterious and evil "them".

Watch out, the thems are everywhere! They've hijacked everything!! And anyone who doesn't see it, is in a "state of self-delusion".

Wake up, sheeple! Wake up!! Every man for yourself! Live as a hermit in a cave! Boots, bullets, beans!
Aluminum foil is the only way to keep them out of your brainwaves!!



- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

p.s. I think pogo had something to say about this a long time ago.

[bvar22]

83. Not surprising considering your screen name.

According to Hedges, You WON!
Its the lower 98% of America who lost.

[femrap]

181. I was thinking the same thing....

Denial is a powerful mental mechanism.

[EFerrari]

116. You don't know Chris Hedges from Adam, do you?

:)

[Odin2005]

138. God dammit, read some Chomsky and get your mind out of the Establishment manufactured reality.

[sendero]

187. A person would have to be downright..

.. in denial to not see what is going on. They won, it IS that simple.

Why did congress vote to give the failed banks billions in the face of calls 100 to 1 against it? Why are we fighting a pointless war with no real end game that almost nobody thinks we can "win"? Why did we get health care reform and finance reform that were essentially written by industry and lacking in the critical components (public option and glass-stegall respectively) that are required for their success?

There is only one possible answer and you are delusional if you think there is another.

[Steely_Dan]

81. In Fairness to Mr. Hedges...

He does make a point in a recent video that fighting back, even if the cause is lost has a particular nobility to it. So, I don't honestly think he fully believes that it is too late or that we shouldn't fight.

-PLA

[Autumn]

82. K/R What a fascinating read,

Thank you.

[PanoramaIsland]

84. I have a hard time believing that a Rhodes scholar dyke who cut her teeth in prison reform...

...is just a cog in Teh Ebil Sistim and is just as bad a Karl Rove, yaddity yaddity, even if she does work within corporate media. Sorry, Rachel-haters.

Also, I must say this all sounds very conspiratorial. What would you suggest as an alternative to Teh Ebil Sistim, pray tell? Instant Macho Gun Revolution? Mass tax resistance? The entire left wing of the United States moving to Canada?

Secession?

[EFerrari]

91. Rachel haters? LOL, what does hate have to do with this?

[PanoramaIsland]

105. The article linked to in the original post slammed Rachel Maddow for being part of Teh Ebil Sistim.

[EFerrari]

107. And you collapsed that into hatred? Funny. n/t

[PanoramaIsland]

109. I used the term "hater" as shorthand. Don't be a nitpicker. n/t

[EFerrari]

212. Shorthand for what? People who don't agree with you?

[PanoramaIsland]

310. People who, um, dislike Rachel Maddow for being part of Teh Machine...?

Jesus, why are you trying to start an argument here? Tomayto, tomahto.

[havbrush]

86. Climate change/global warming

Ever notice how when a vacant lot is cleared but not built on, eventually weeds start appearing, then tee seedlings and wildlife, nature comes back. It's the same on a much larger scale with humankind's screwing up of the environment. Nature is much more powerful and will eventually reclaim itself. The problem for us is it might take a million years or so but there will be clean oceans and pollution-free air again. Humans might not be around to see it,though.

[NAO]

89. don't read Chris Hedges if YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH

Because Hedges just states the truth, so plainly, and so matter of factly, that most people are shocked that anyone could say such things.

In "The Zero Point of Systemic Collapse",( http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25022.htm ) Hedges lays it all out for anyone with eyes to see.

The article below is the straight dope; it seems quite harsh while going thru it...but when you've read it a few times and really absorbed what Hedges is saying, it's like the scales fall off your eyes and you can see clearly now what is really going on in the world.

I think it's permissible to quote up to three paragraphs, so here goes:


"We stand on the cusp of one of the bleakest periods in human history when the bright lights of a civilization blink out and we will descend for decades, if not centuries, into barbarity. The elites have successfully convinced us that we no longer have the capacity to understand the revealed truths presented before us or to fight back against the chaos caused by economic and environmental catastrophe. As long as the mass of bewildered and frightened people, fed images that permit them to perpetually hallucinate, exist in this state of barbarism, they may periodically strike out with a blind fury against increased state repression, widespread poverty and food shortages. But they will lack the ability and self-confidence to challenge in big and small ways the structures of control. The fantasy of widespread popular revolts and mass movements breaking the hegemony of the corporate state is just that – a fantasy..."

"Democracy, a system ideally designed to challenge the status quo, has been corrupted and tamed to slavishly serve the status quo. We have undergone, as John Ralston Saul writes, a coup d’état in slow motion...transformed into what the political philosopher Sheldon Wolin labels inverted totalitarianism. Inverted totalitarianism, unlike classical totalitarianism, does not revolve around a demagogue or charismatic leader. It finds expression in the anonymity of the corporate state. It purports to cherish democracy, patriotism, a free press, parliamentary systems and constitutions while manipulating and corrupting internal levers to subvert and thwart democratic institutions. Political candidates are elected in popular votes by citizens but are ruled by armies of corporate lobbyists in Washington, Ottawa or other state capitals who author the legislation and get the legislators to pass it. A corporate media controls nearly everything we read, watch or hear and imposes a bland uniformity of opinion. Mass culture, owned and disseminated by corporations, diverts us with trivia, spectacles and celebrity gossip. In classical totalitarian regimes, such as Nazi fascism or Soviet communism, economics was subordinate to politics. “Under inverted totalitarianism the reverse is true,” Wolin writes. “Economics dominates politics – and with that domination comes different forms of ruthlessness.”

Inverted totalitarianism wields total power without resorting to cruder forms of control such as gulags, concentration camps or mass terror. It harnesses science and technology for its dark ends. It enforces ideological uniformity by using mass communication systems to instill profligate consumption as an inner compulsion and to substitute our illusions of ourselves for reality. It does not forcibly suppress dissidents, as long as those dissidents remain ineffectual. And as it diverts us it dismantles manufacturing bases, devastates communities, unleashes waves of human misery and ships jobs to countries where fascists and communists know how to keep workers in line. It does all this while waving the flag and mouthing patriotic slogans. “The United States has become the showcase of how democracy can be managed without appearing to be suppressed,” Wolin writes...


Chris Hedges
Zero Point of Systemic Collapse
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25022.htm

[XemaSab]

158. Damn

:o

[inna]

302. fascinating. thanks for posting this. nt

[G_j]

314. ignore

at our own peril

[Skidmore]

93. Wow! Just....wow!!!

It positively reeks in here. Some bridges somewhere are missing...

[EFerrari]

119. The thing that I don't understand

is that people who disagree with Hedges make posts like this: trolls, stupid, pity party, nutcases, paranoid rant. But you don't mount an argument. If he's so wrong, wouldn't it be an easy matter to show how he's wrong?

[Skidmore]

142. There are just some things that cannot and should not be

dignified with a response. And Hedges is one of the last people I would put stock in since he was gungho war enabler. Secondly, there is all sorts of troll-like activity occurring on this board today.

[XemaSab]

160. Hedges was a war enabler? How so?

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_hedges.html

[druidity33]

224. maybe thinking of Chris Hitchens? nt.

[EFerrari]

210. That's sounds like a no. n/t

[girl gone mad]

285. But you did respond.

And your response makes absolutely no sense.

[fascisthunter]

303. what a cop-out... you have no argument

just name calling

[inna]

301. project much? what an ugly and stupid comment.

[earth mom]

95. Thanks for posting this! I'm not in denial about things, but my mistake is to keep thinking someone

will save all of us-some "hero or shero" will swoop in to save the planet and us.

Be it Gore, RFK Jr., Kucinich, or Elizabeth Warren. But NOT Obama, Oprah, Pelosi, or Hilary Clinton.

The cold hard truth is that WE are going to have to save ourselves and our planet as Chris Hedges has pointed out here:


11:41 Chris Hedges
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:41:38 GMT
Comment:

Well, America has produced a country of people who’ve never had to grow up. They live in this illusion that reality is not an impediment to what they desire. They can have everything they want, they just have to dig deep within themselves, grasp that they are truly exceptional or believe that Jesus can produce miracles. It’s a form of magical thinking that is fed to us from the media to the corporations, from Oprah to Hollywood to corporatism to the Christian right, and it has created a society where we are captivated by illusion, an illusion about who we are and where we’re going, and that’s a very common characteristic among dying civilizations that lack the emotional fortitude to grasp that the world’s are crumbling around them so they retreat into the magical. If you read Cicero or Joseph Roth, Freud (end of Austro-Hungarian) they saw very clearly, both the disintegration and the capacity of people around them to accept it. The danger is when you remain in a state of illusion, you essentially perpetuate an infantilism that leaves you unprepared, physiologically, intellectually and emotionally for collapse, and when collapse comes, you react like children, you search for a savior, a demagogue, someone who promises vengeance, moral renewal and fantastic visions of a new glory. It’s an old, old story, and we are not immune to the cycles of human history. The Greeks did not believe in a linear time, they believed that societies had a period of growth, maturation and decay, and I think the Greeks are right. So when your family doesn’t want to hear, they are retreating into the far more comforting arena of illusions that are provided for them by corporate entities that seek to keep us ignorant and disempowered and stop us from fighting back. And will they crush us like bugs? Probably. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t resist. Resistance is a moral imperative. The problem with the left is that it was seduced by the practical, and that is what killed it as a moral force. We have a commitment to non-historical values, justice, ... protection of life, love, which are of course deemed by the world to be impractical. But which keep alive that possibility of another way of being and another form of community, and at this point I think we have to look at the Middle Ages and the monastic communities that kept alive learning, humanities and life in a time of darkness so that these great contributions of human history are not lost, and that becomes a battle worth fighting because as we enter an age of barbarism, the snuffing out of these great forces of humanism will be tragic for the human race and I think we have to focus much of our energy in trying to protect these non-historical forces, commitments to values, and that’s going to entail rebellion and perhaps even great personal risk. But I think it is worth doing because at this point we can create a structure that can disarm corporatism, but because we can at least protect those virtues that permit people to live in ways that they are not slaves.

[snot]

167. Another great Hedges quote:

"e forgot that the question is NOT, how do we get good people into power. The question is, how do we limit the damage the powerful can do to us?"
from an address to the Poverty Scholars Program, April 10, 2010, video at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25298.htm .

[midnight]

229. Powerful statement: "The question is, how do we limit the damage the powerful can do to us?"

[Drunken Irishman]

97. It's all over! Whatever will we do? IDEA! Mass suicide!

All leftist DUers - nothing left to fight for. Despair has won over. We're dooooomed! So take your own lives!

Okay?





























































;)

[EFerrari]

123. So, how is he wrong?

I'd love to have a reason to think he's wrong. :)

[Drunken Irishman]

129. Hey I agree with you.

I'm guessing in a couple months, America won't even exist anymore.

[EFerrari]

213. How can you agree with me if you don't know what i think?

lol

I'm still not getting a counter argument to his. Maybe there isn't one?

[truth2power]

232. Give it up, Ferrari! I see a lot of that around here....

If they can't thoughtfully analyze something, they just resort to "It doesn't deserve a response" or some iteration of that.

[Drunken Irishman]

266. Don't really need to counter an argument that is solely about hyperbole...

[Warren Stupidity]

288. Hedges is reflecting a growing meta-consensus regarding climate catastrophe

This is not hyperbole. The scientific community is starting to think about how to deal with the effects of the catastrophe we are in - how to adapt - rather than how to avert what is happening. For whatever reason, including perhaps lack of political will, or lack of reasoned awareness in our ruling elites, our global civilization has decided to not act to prevent the disaster, not to prepare for what is to come, and to leave billions of people to their fate.

Our republic's leaders are off fighting the global oil resource war knowing full well that peak oil and economic chaos are in our near future, in fact they are here, they just aren't being honest about what is going on. But yeah it is just hyperbole. What was the Cheney committee again? Why was 9-11? Why Iraq? Huh? Put the hydro-fracking pieces together, it ain't a particularly big puzzle.

[NeedleCast]

124. Hedges Reminds me of those street corner prophets

Who carry the signs proclaiming that the END IS NEAR!!

It's amazing how often those "prophets" are wrong and amazing how many people still listen to them. Hedges is the far-left version of right wing crack pot survivalist. Run to the mountains. Take your guns n seeds. He's so far to the left that he's started running into his counter-parts on the right.

[MilesColtrane]

151. Eventually one of them will be right.

Fortunately, we won't have to listen to them gloat for long as we're all consumed by tsunamis, earthquakes, blood rain,...what have you.

"See? I told you I was righaaaiaiiaiiiEEEEEEEARGHHHH!!"

[NeedleCast]

153. Its all the ones who are wrong we have to cope with

On the other hand, they can be commended for their consistency. In terms of collapse event prophitization, they're at 100%.

100% wrong, but, you know, semantics...

[bvar22]

200. I told you I was right about the collapse in Residential Property Value,

and the crash of the Stock Market in 2007.
You should have listened.
:hi:

[MilesColtrane]

221. Forget using your super-predictive powers on the markets.

Give me some good lottery numbers!

[bvar22]

231. No thanks.

I don't gamble.
The collapse in residential housing, and the crash of the market in 2007 were sure things to anyone with common sense and the willingness to listen to those NOT invested in the continuation of the bubble.
.
.
.
just like the OP.

[Leftist Agitator]

228. I pointed out the systemic instability in the aggregate housing market to my cousin in 2006.

She and her husband had gotten into flipping houses. I warned her that a collapse in the market was imminent, that there was no rational reason for housing prices to be where they were. That all the ads on TV probably meant that the market was nearing saturation and the bottom-feeders were trying to squeeze the last bit of money out of the suckers before the whole thing imploded in on itself.

You know what I got from her?

"That's really stupid. Everyone knows that real estate never loses its value, and besides, if you're so smart, why are all of the experts saying to get into buying investment properties?"

She didn't want to listen to a 24 year-old with a History degree. All those smart business people with their MBAs knew better than I did. She ended up losing both her latest investment property AND her home.

And ironically enough, I, the person who "didn't really know the first thing about business", is now getting an MBA.

At least I'll know well enough not to listen to the shitheads who go into Finance when they tell me that something is "the next big thing and only a fool would ignore this exciting opportunity".

[EFerrari]

219. Can you point out something he's been wrong on? Thanks. n/t

[NAO]

273. Hedges reminds me of Jeremiah "The Weeping Prophet" (and a sign board guy too)

Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people! Jeremiah 9:1

The biblical Jeremiah lamented and wept because the people were on a road to self-destruction, and the priests and kings were corrupt beyond comprehension and were at the heart of the self-destructive ways. He also lamented over the fact that the people's "hearts were hardened" and they would not listen but just went full bore ahead into self-destruction.

And, yes, Hedges does remind me of one of the guys on the street corner with a sandwich sign saying "The End Is Near". I have used that trick on myself to sooth my fears. But in reality, Hedges is not crazy, he has his eyes wide open, he is looking at scientific facts, he is making astute commentary and drawing valid conclusions from those facts. His assessment is corroborated by many other scientific fact based, reason driven thinkers.

The twin facts of declining oil reserves/declining oil production and fossil fuel driven emission driven climate change make the way in which humanity will catastrophically perish difficult to determine. There are two possibilities.

Scenario #1 is climate change could wreck havoc on the human race, really on all life on earth resulting in massive dislocations, droughts, famines, and the die-off of billions.

Scenario #2 is oil production could decline before climate change REALLY becomes lethal. This would result in massive interruptions in the entire world infrastructure, and specifically to the global food production and distribution system. But nearly everything in the economy depends on oil, and it's shortage or a rise in it's cost would have a massive force multiplier effect on the world economy and all aspects of life on earth. Now in this scenario, the scenario of declining oil production, we would see a huge increase in reliance on coal, which is the dirtiest of the fossil fuels. The accelerating spike in emissions from an increasing shift to coal would rapidly bring on Scenario #1, to compound the misery already caused by scenario #2.

So although scenario #1 looks extremely bleak, it is actually the brighter of the two scenarios, because if billions die-off that will drastically reduce the rate of depletion of petroleum reserves. With the problems created by fossil fuels (climate change and massive crippling over dependence on a non-renewable resource), those who survive the die-off are going to need those last, difficult to extract fossil fuels to survive the climate change, the destruction of the ecosystem, and the collapse of civilization.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

98. Stolen Elections - rather a key element to the hijacking.

We are sorely screwn.

[Cha]

99. And, you fed the pity party..

they need it.

[treestar]

104. There's always some nut case saying things like this at all times

Start the revolution! Oh! the drama!

[EFerrari]

117. That's what the wingnuts said about Al Gore.

:)

[bvar22]

156. Yes. There are.

"There's always some nut case saying things like this at all times"

And some are worth heeding,
like those in 2006 who forecast the the collapse of Residential Property Values, and the crash of the Stock Market.

I'm GLAD I listened to them and took precautions.

[NeedleCast]

106. Sky. Falling.

End. Near.

Repent!

[GliderGuider]

111. No need to repent

Just change.

[malaise]

112. I fear that he is correct

There will be no change without citizen outrage and activism

[GliderGuider]

118. Yes, he is right. However,

One thing The Powers That Be have gotten very good at is directing, controlling, modulating and deflating citizen outrage and activism. So while that they're necessary, we shouldn't expect them to carry the day in any direct confrontation with the Guardian Instuitutions of Hierarchy.

My preferred approach is to support personal, individual changes of attitude. These can completely alter the way a person lives their life, but are largely out of the reach of the hierarchy's agenda-setting tools.

[BeHereNow]

204. What a great website!

Thanks for linking it in your post.
Bookmarked.

BHN

[Stuckinthebush]

113. Very true

Honestly, I don't know if we will ever win. Chris is right. It's over - and has been for a long time.

Corporatism has won. Greed is powerful. People are foolish and will serve this system with the hope that they too can be multi millionaires. They never will be.

Stupid species.

[katty]

114. right again Chris!

[Jax]

115. Thank you kpete

great read, necessary.

Your work as always is stellar.

k&r

[alsame]

125. Yep, "It's all hijacked." K&R

[mod mom]

131. What I don't get....

the elitist "winners" haven't won either. They will inherit a world in climate crisis but have lived such pampered lives that it will be more unbearable to them than to the average person. They are so removed from self sufficiency that they won't be able to survive. Why would they want an existence too hot & ravaged with storms to enjoy life? I've never understood why they haven't attempted to stop some of the destruction.

I have to admit, I thought Obama was different was was set to help fight the destructive powers. That hope has faded.

[JDPriestly]

133. It's depressing. We hang onto our myths.

The media machine creates myths not just for the American people but, increasingly, for the people of the world.

And that is our problem, traditionally, the wise men in the tribe told the stories, created the myths. Today, it is admen, slick, unscrupulous salesmen who tell us stories in return for the privilege of living in penthouse apartments looking over Central Park.

The only alternatives that is offered to the general public are the ancient religious myths. They are interesting but often do not speak the wisdom we need in a day in which our plagues and floods are not caused by God or demons but by us, by our own insistence on driving cars and using plastics and living a lifestyle that kills the earth.

We need new myths, new stories.

I am becoming aware that just complaining is not helpful (although I continue to do it).

We need inspiring myths that move us to positive action.

An additional note:

Violence is not the answer in our situation. Violence will simply destroy our environment even more. That is why I hope that we can begin to create our own stories -- stories about positive forces overcoming the corporate monsters. The Lord of the Rings is too allegorical. We need stories that instruct us on our present reality.

Has anybody read any good books recently?

[paparush]

134. If elections really changed anything, they'd be illegal.

Somebody said that. Not me.

[havocmom]

135. When a few people own the pols and the media, elections are irrelevant

Oh, and when those people also own the means by which votes are counted, elections area also a joke.

[clarence swinney]

294. 1,500,000 Aristocracy

Top 1% own 43% Total Financial Wealth

2002-2006 they took two thirds of all Income growth
Bottom 90% got 12%

They own/control
WSA
PRESS
MAJOR CORPORATIONS
PENTAGON
CONGRESS
WHITE HOUSE
1979 to 2007 their Income increased by 281%--Middle 20% by 25%--bottom 20% by 16%

Yes! It is true today in America

A FEW 1,500,000 OWN 153,000,000 WORKERS TO DO THEIR BIDDING

SAD SO SAD SO TRUE

God Bless the Charitable Conservatives since 1980 with Reagan plus Bush II

RICH then the REST

olduglymanhonest

[whatchamacallit]

136. Hedges is mostly right

but his opinions will of course be rejected without consideration by sensible tools.

[Odin2005]

137. The Ruling Class has made their decision. Democracy is a fucking SHAM.

Oh, and Obama is part of the Ruling Class.

[TBF]

139. He's very close -

"nobody is addressing the institutional methods that are strangling us."

I would simply say "nobody is addressing that capitalism is killing us".

[tpsbmam]

140. K&R for excellent post & and some interesting discussions afterward. The Hedges

piece isn't really anything new -- most of the contents have been voiced many times here. There are parts with which I disagree but overall, it's a sobering piece. Just the simple attachment of the term "coup d'etat" makes it that much more chilling for me. I've thought about most of this and have come to the same depressing conclusions many here have, but I simply never attached that term to all of it.

:cry:

[Scurrilous]

141. ...

"That's it man, game over man, game over!"

[Grinchie]

144. He basically restates my similar conclusions

Which is why I do not blindly follow along with the Big D Democrats anymore. It's simply because the policies do no make sense when one reviews the evidence presented to us, versus what the media or academia tells us to believe.

It is truly a shock to the system when one has to acknowledge the big coopted systems that run this country without any accountability other than to the powers that be to make more money to build a deerer hidy hole when the shit hits the fan.

People are certainly in self delusion mode, simply because it is more convenient than actually sitting down and figuring out all the details that will need to be addressed when the system breaks down, and food, electricity and water become scarce. These shortages WILL HAPPEN, simply because we see no effective maintenance of existing infrastructure such as water mains and power distribution systems. Furthermore, the distribution systems are in many cases based on technology developed centuries ago, and little thought has been put into the cost of replacement, let alone the exhaustion of the resource in the first place.

Nah, use it all up, then move on, and in the 50's, we saw the move on part as exploration of neighboring planets, perhaps colonizing suitable ones, but we have seen the space program dismembered and unfunded, unless it is targetted at military superiority.

I have a great example of the current corporation controlled educational system. In short, it's a tenured professor tell a batch of chemistry students how polluting hydrogen is when burned with air. While semantically, it's true, air is 70% nitrogen, and when burned at hi tempuratures, it creates Oxides of Nitrogen that are converted in the atmosphere to droplets of nitric acid and other compund hazardous to our health. I'll leave it to interested readers to see why this is propaganda, seeded into the minds of future chemists so as to reduce interest in using electrolysis and water for fuel.

As a farmer, I have directly observed the destruction of our soils by unsustainable, Monsanto enabled agricultural systems. We see it in the morbid obesity of Americans, ans the inability of Americans to think, simply because they would be better off eating cardboard than what is called a carrot today. Sure, the food looks and tastes marvelous, but it's empty excepte for sugars and carbohydrates.

We were indoctrinated that Cocnut and Palm oil was the worst kind of fat for the human, and sold on synthetic, altered trans-fats. Nobody ever asked the question, "How come pacific islanders were not disease ridden when there diet consisted of these same fats for millenia?" Nope, just lobby and market our new and improved transfat, that can sit inactive on a shelf for years and still be useful in the industrial food machinery...

I'm wondering if the Pharmaceutical industry is lumped into the social systems he speaks of in the article...

It certainly isn't social anymore, now that we have "Health Insurance Reform" - AKA Mandatory insurance.

[bvar22]

159. I agree with everything except...

"Sure, the food looks and tastes marvelous,"

It tastes like cardboard,
and when every single tomato in the Supermarket is the same size, shape, and color, something is bad wrong. It may "look good" to some, the same way that Face Lifts look good to some, but its not real to those who know better.

[Grinchie]

279. OK Ok, It tastes good to people that don;t know what real food tastes like.

You are most certainly an exception Bvar, as I know you are well acquainted with the same quality food that I consume every day.

You have to admit that when you take a whiff of the aroma while walking past a MCDonalds, that some subliminal chemical tickles at your hunger bone.. I know that it still has the ability to grab my attention, even after 10 years of consciously avoiding that crap. It still is able to grab hold of me somehow, and that is what is most terrifying to me.

However, I am able to resist, but I see families and children eating that stuff, and McD's stock is still way up there, so you have to admit that it does taste marvelous in that respect.

BTW I just discovered a neat plant called Chaya.. It might grow in your neck of the woods in a greenhouse. Commonly known as Mayan Tree Spinach.

Grows like a weed here, and is very delicious if you like Vitamin K

Aloha!

[Stinky The Clown]

161. kpete, I am amazed you, of all people, felt the need to post that disclaimer.

If ever there was a consistently worthy, uncontroversial, always informative DU regular, it is YOU.

Yet there it is. That disclaimer.

I can only make a very few assumptions as to why you felt you needed to do that. No need to answer this if you don't want to. But man-oh-man, that's an amazing thing to me.




edit to add the word "few" that was left out initially

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

164. Bullshit

I bet you really do hate kittens. :evilgrin:









.

[Enthusiast]

165. I won't recommend this.

Although there is a lot of truth in what Hedges says, it is just too damn pessimistic.

Despite massive misinformation efforts by these un-named PTB the American people are waking up to the realization that something is very wrong in their country. This gives me hope. Obviously voters in 2006 and 2008 tried to vote for progressive majorities. At least this was their intention.

[snot]

170. Can someone fill me in a bit more, though, re-

how "Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow are as bad as the right wing"?

[truedelphi]

173. Perhaps it is because they spend endless hours of time each week prattling on about how bad

Some mis- statement or lie from some Republican was.

When the whole damn system needs to be uprooted, and re-done.

Complaining endlessly about Palin or Bohner doesn't do anything but make their names more of a household word.

[Chef Eric]

195. They're not "complaining." They're reporting. It's their job. nt

[EFerrari]

218. They're not reporting, they are not reporters. They are opining.

They bring up stories covered by other people and give their own impression of those stories.

[whatchamacallit]

174. Edit

truedelphi said it better.

[Chef Eric]

177. No, nobody can. Because that part of Hedges' rant is BS. nt

[EFerrari]

217. If I had to guess, it would be because they usually don't challenge

the terms of the debate very much. Rachel does more, but she doesn't go very far outside the box. It's the difference between Rachel and Amy Goodman, maybe. You could never mistake Amy Goodman for an MSNB anchor. She's been at war with corporate media for years.

[truth2power]

171. Dear kpete; Thank you for posting this. I'm concerned, though, about your disclaimer..

There is NO need for you to have to explain yourself or your motivations for posting this article. If this is what DU has come to (and perhaps it has) then we are in deep trouble, indeed.

I said before, here, that Obama wasn't my first choice. During the primaries I expressed to a co-worker that he (Obama) made all-purpose speeches, that is, that they lacked substance. Over time, however, and for a number of reasons, I got on board.

I stood in line for several hours outside a stadium when Mr. Obama came to speak, here. As it happened, I was standing behind a young African-American mother and her two lovely little girls. We sat together during the rally, and I can't tell you how proud I was to think that those two little girls were going to grow up in a different and better world.

Over time, though, I've concluded that the direction Pres. Obama is leading us is not the direction of the greatest good for all. I don't hate Obama. It just is what it is.

In my view, events are going to proceed as they will, whether or not DU or some who post here are in accord with the end result. All the talk about people being "anti-Obama" is just a diversion.

[truedelphi]

324. Yeah, I truly believe it is not about whether some individual supports this

President or doesn't - what is of the utmost importance is that Obama doesn't seem to have much curiosity about things that are really important.

Last week, when a blogger said that Sherrod was too racist to hold down her position helping the small time farmer, Obama agreed. And forced her out.

He has no curiosity about the inner workings of the economy - Paulson was okay by him, and so is Bernanke. Geithner is by Obama's own admission, his "good buddy." And the fact that the trillions taken away from the small time business person and handed over to the Big Time Banker - the results of that behavior are obvious to anyone who thinks about it. Especially when it is the rich banker given the tax breaks, while the middle class person has to struggle.

Obama certainly doesn't question the inner workings of plant life - and his advisers all tell him how good Monsanto genetically modified seed and food is for everyone. He doesn't question it but instead installs Monsanto clones at the Department of Agriculture and at the FDA.

He excels at meet and greet occasions - far superior to Bush stammering and yammering. But there is more to governing than hosting Paul McCartney or the Queen of England.

Real governance seems to be what he is failing at. Unless of course, the problem is not that he lacks curiosity, but that he all along is was and will be just a Player for the Big Players.

[BrklynLiberal]

182. The planet will survive...Mankind may not.

http://gospelofreason.com/2007/05/24/george-carlin-the-planet-is-fine/

[totodeinhere]

206. And for the sake of the planet, the sooner man dies off the better. n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

226. I happen to agree with you 100% on that...

sadly for my descendants...

[pokerfan]

185. It’s a big club and you ain’t in it!

There's a reason that education sucks, and it’s the same reason it will never ever ever be fixed. It’s never going to get any better, don’t look for it. Be happy with what you’ve got. Because the owners of this country don’t want that. I’m talking about the real owners now, the big, wealthy, business interests that control all things and make the big decisions.

Forget the politicians, they’re irrelevant. Politicians are put there to give you that idea that you have freedom of choice. You don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land, they own and control the corporations, and they’ve long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the State Houses, and the City Halls. They’ve got the judges in their back pockets. And they own all the big media companies so they control just about all the news and information you get to hear.

They’ve got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want; they want more for themselves and less for everybody else. But I’ll tell you what they don’t want—they don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. That’s against their interest. You know something, they don’t want people that are smart enough to sit around their kitchen table and figure out how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fucking years ago.

They don’t want that, you know what they want? They want obedient workers, obedient workers. People who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork and just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it. And now they’re coming for your social security money.

They want your fucking retirement money; they want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later because they own this fucking place. It’s a big club and you ain’t in it! You and I are not in the Big Club. By the way, it’s the same big club they use to beat you in the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to believe, what to think and what to buy.

The table is tilted folks, the game is rigged. Nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. Good honest hard working people, white collar, blue collar, it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard working people continue, these are people of modest means, continue to elect these rich cocksuckers who don’t give a fuck about them. They don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t give a fuck about you! They don’t care about you at all. At all.

And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on, the fact that Americans are and will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white, and blue dick that’s being jammed up their assholes everyday. Because the owners of this country know the truth, it’s called the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it.

George Carlin, Life is Worth Losing, 2005

[DaveT]

186. A good part of the discussion on this thread

reflects debate over the passage from Hedges suggesting that people should have known better than to have voted for Obama.

I do not disagree with the basic argument that Hedges is making. In my own small way, I have posted similar thoughts on this board and others for years -- we cannot expect electoral politics to serve as the mechanism for making the structural changes that we need in order for civilization to survive. Changing the politicians in office does nothing to change the underlying power structure that insanely defines any threat to short term profit as insanity.

But I strongly disagree with the thought that it makes no difference at all who runs the government. That is absolute nonsense.

On the full agenda of the "social issues" that animate our political opponents -- abortion, homosexuality, the wingnut paranoia about losing the country to ethnic minorities -- there is a profound difference between Obama and McCain, and that difference often becomes a matter of life and death. If for no other reason than to keep the wingnuts from gaining total control of the Federal Judiciary, it is worth voting for Democrats.

We must not fool ourselves about what electoral victory means -- the corporate power structure actually leans our way on the social issues because there is no money to be made from banning abortion or denying gay citizens equal treatment under the law. So, we are allowed to win on those issues -- provided we get off our asses and win.

This does not in any way contradict the dour picture that Hedges paints regarding the coup d'etat. In fact my only quibble with him is that his chat/text does not betray any awareness of the Gilded Age. I am sure that an intellectual like him does in fact realize that about 120 years ago, the political structure of the USA was even more tightly controlled by corporate interests than it is today. And on those rare occasions when one or another of the various populist campaigns did manage to gain control of a state legislature, the Supreme Court was there to rule their reforms as unconstitutional.

Money is so much easier to organize than people -- it almost always kicks our ass.

Almost. And it never succumbs to something as easy to do as casting a ballot on election day. We have a long and bloody history of resistance in this country. So long as the mass of us are unwilling to risk our comfort, our livelihoods and even our lives, we will continue to get our ass kicked.

[RetroLounge]

192. K&R

Sadly true

RL

[leftstreet]

196. K&R

[Canuckistanian]

198. We can ALL effect change

All we need is a few million dollars to start our own PAC. Or at least enough to buy a Congressman or Senator (which is surprisingly cheap, IMO)

The days of letter-writing campaigns and petitions are over.

[defendandprotect]

268. Wow ... we think alike somewhat . . .

We do need to unite, of course, first -- but then there are a couple of hundred

ways to show our power without getting beat up by our public servants --

AND, I've long been talking about citizens getting a lobby going -- hiring

maybe Erin Brockovitch?

Tons of actions we can do all together -- but individually!!

[LatteLibertine]

335. Agreed

The most wealthy definitely have a lot of cash and many small donations from us could still turn heads.

I don't plan on giving up myself. I've seen too many times where I almost gave up then at the last minute I had a breakthrough.

Demoralizing the voting base is a tried and true tactic. They want us disengaged.

Sure in the end I may lose and won't be because of lack of trying.

[BeHereNow]

207. Some of us have been screaming this message for years.

I think Chris has presented the facts quite nicely.
Recommended.

BHN

[Kurovski]

220. Kpete, you know, if you want to be fed, you can always eat kittens!

K&R. I'm getting carpal tunnel from K-ing & R-ing all your posts.

[Octafish]

222. Almost.

It isn't over until we say it's over. But, I do agree with Hedges' assessment of the situation in which we find ourselves. We face the Dire Wolf, 600 pounds of sin. More cards are yet to play.

[felix_numinous]

223. Change involves destruction as well as construction.

Surviving in a changing world is remembering that there is always a third option. We are being herded by powers that be who benefit by narrowing our viewpoint. There is only "Left and "Right', Up and Down, and Safe and Unsafe. Now more than ever, it is important to always be looking to break out of the imposed polar realities, by recognizing how mainstream media frames reality, and attempts to psyche us out of rationally calculating our way toward sustainability.

The powers that be want to conserve a system that rewards greed, secrecy and violence. We have to create another option in order to survive.

[Kurovski]

225. Welcome to DU, felix_numinous!

:hi:

[madrchsod]

227. your last two sentences are correct...,welcome

[XemaSab]

235. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[deathrind]

230. He is right.

The coming environmental changes are going to radically alter how the human race exists on this planet. It will be unlike anything we have ever faced in recorded history.

[certainot]

233. bullshit. the left ignores the right's most important weapon and then whines it's

all over.

all the left has to do is stop ignoring the 1000 radio stations that beat the crap out of their representatives and causes all day long with coordinated uncontested repetition of lies and distortions. until then the left cannot say it is getting obama's back because it won't be, and he and the dems will have to keep compromising.

one local blowhard young republican with a communications degree and a giant microphone can undo the work of thousands of americans volunteering a few spare hours and dollars here and there. the talk radio monopoly makes real democracy impossible.

dems have 3 months to start picketing those stations and complaining to their local sponsors- pressuring the stations and exposing the liars that so far have been getting a free speech free ride to lie unchallenged to 50 mil every week, determining what is and what isn't acceptable in politics and media in the US.. EVERYTHING the GOP does depends on the radio monopoly blasting away while the left turns the dial.

i sometimes wonder how many of the naive i'm-giving-up-on-obama new voters aren't going to universities where their athletic teams broadcast on the same limbaugh/hannity superstations, giving credibility to corporate think tank talking points, lies, racism, and global warming denial.

[girl gone mad]

234. k & r

Many of us have disinvested, but unfortunately as long as they control the printing presses, they do not need us.

[immune]

307. Well, not quite all of the printing presses.

List of community currencies in the United States:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_community_currencies_in_the_United_States

We can either work with each other, or we can allow the "official" money managers to work us over some more.

[pleah]

241. K&R

[Goldstein1984]

248. Control of production and consumption

Which is ultimately in control of workers and consumers.

In an economy based 70% on consumption, and where "recovery" is measured in fractions of percentage points, a boycott of all nonessential goods by 25% of the population would send a powerful message.

Unfortunately, the system has been designed so that we can't hurt the ruling class without hurting the working class.

So, until we are suffering enough to accept the casualties of fighting back in this class war, we're going to continue on as we are.

[defendandprotect]

269. It's urgent to overturn the trade agreements . . . why do we hear so little about that here???

[inna]

304. Instead, more trade agreements are coming:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8765585

I don't understand why this is not the topic of discussion, either.

The very LAST thing we need is MORE NAFTA on steroids. That is guaranteed to finish off the middle class.

[defendandprotect]

312. We need an end to this harmful DLC/New Dem thinking in 2012 ...!!

[Goldstein1984]

318. The economy is two-tiered

One tier reflected the welfare of a tiny percentage of the population, and the financial metric is the DJIA. The DJIA reflects the health of Wall Street.

The second tier represents the balance--the overwhelming majority if only numbers are considered--and the metrics are unemployment, foreclosures, unsecured debt and military enlistment. Those metrics reflect the health of Main Street.

Wall Street controls the government. Free trade agreements, and globalization, are good for Wall Street. Don't expect free trade agreements to go away until representative government is restored. By that I mean representing the many rather than the few.

[wildbilln864]

258. ***k&r! nt

[mahina]

259. He does forget we are not the whole world.

Agreed about most (except who would he have had us vote for then if not Obama?) but what is happening politically here is not universal.

In fact, viewed from other countries, what's going on here and has been going on since 2000 is really singular.

[theFrankFactor]

264. This is the Truth - When Everyone's Hair Catches Fire, Them Maybe More People Will Care.

[Bryn]

265. K&R

[defendandprotect]

267. There certainly was a full steam ahead by DU re Obama . . .

And I think the "contest" between Hillary and Barack was a huge distraction from asking

really what either would do? I wouldn't have voted for Hillary because she's DLC -- and

had I known that Obama identified himself as a "New Dem" wouldn't have voted for him either!

I continued to hope that everyone was right -- but immediately you could see that this ship

wasn't sailing in a populist direction -- it was off in heavily armed corporate waters!!


But -- NOW -- what prevents this kind of trust and wishful thinking in 2012 -- ???

We need a new Democratic candidate --


We need a lot of things -- why do we hear nothing here about ending these wars?

Why nothing about ending use of computers?

Ending trade agreements? The homeless --

These are all issues DU'ers should be pounding on, yet I get the feeling too many here are

more interested in staying away from anything controversial -- anti-Democratic Party --

and especially anti-Obama. This is a president about as far from FDR as Bush was --

Also agree we are largely ruled by hierarchies of power --

academic has largely been corporatized --

Also agree that NATURE is in the driver's seat - and we may be watching some final cards

being played? I'd guess that the atomic weapons we dropped on Japan in '45 didn't help us

much either -- whether we look at environment or karma!!

But -- even if this was the last day before the final day -- you have to continue to plant a tree --

fight back as much as you can.

TRUE, however, there is a 50 year delay in Global Warming -- and we've known about this since

the late-1950's. Right now we're feeling the effects of our actions up to about 1960 -- and

quite some acceleration of pollutants -- carbon dioxide after that period!!

PLUS what has been happening since -- oil spills/40% menthane gas -- no way to anticipate how

all of these things may compound.


I’ve taught at places like Princeton and they all function like corporations. We’ve allowed these corporations to snuff out all voices of sanity and decency and why we listen to this garbage and why we watch it. ... Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow are as bad as the right wing; they are all playing the same wing, nobody is addressing the institutional methods that are strangling us. I don’t care if it’s from the left or right, it all acts as diversion to keep us in a state of self-delusion.

Sometimes I wonder if anyone remembers "voices of sanity and decency" any more?

I've been amazed that neither Keith nor Rachel have been on the "Cat Food Commission" yet -- ???


From highest perspective ...

Patriarchy = "the bird with one wing" --

Organized Patriarchal Religion -- it's underpinning --

Capitalism -- it's economic invention

The Unholy Trinity!!



Capitalism is based on exploitation -- of nature, natural resources, animal-life -- and

even other human beings according to various myths of "inferiority."

This is all suicidal -- NATURE is all --


We can fight back very effectively -- but we all have to understand what we're fighting

exactly and Americans aren't really talking politics to one another -- except on the

internet!!

[defendandprotect]

274. K&R

[geek tragedy]

278. I got in trouble for saying what this thread/post proves.

Most DU'ers think Obama=Bush.

I feel vindicated.

It also seems that Democrats should leave this place en masse--there is no common ground between the people agreeing with Hedges and those who want Democrats to defeat Republicans. So, since the Obama=Bush crowd are the dominant voice. (congrats guys) the site would be beret off with a purge of Democratic partisans.

[great white snark]

283. Hey

Dammit, don't even think about leaving.

Edited for privacy's sake. Sorry if I broke any unspoken rules.

[geek tragedy]

284. I'll pm you tomorrow to further explain. nt

[DesertDiamond]

289. Agree! We are in a crucial moment, but there is hope! There is a way to win, and

we are going to do it. When enough of us recognize that peace starts with ourselves and begin the difficult -- but ultimately very rewarding -- effort to create peace starting with ourselves, and helping others to do the same, we will be part of creating the peace and prosperity that is going to happen for this planet.

I will post more about this later.

[Poboy]

290. -nt

.

[clarence swinney]

293. Newt Nut on Jobs

He told student audience Obama policies Are a Job Killer
Possible. Logic!
Obama took a 700,000 jobs loss monthly to 50,000 jobs gained.
Clinton left Bush a record 237,000 Net New Jobs Gained per month
Bush took it down to 31,000.
Lowest since Hoover.
Know why unemployment is so high?
One cause is not enough jobs were created over 8 years.
It requires 100,000 per month to cover new entries into the work force.
Bush 31,000 was 69,00 below that mark
69,000 X 12 =728,000 per year X 8= 5,800,000 jobs not created

Creation in China does not count. Bush sent 2,300,000 to just China.

WSA WSA turn then loose $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ OUR GOD $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
USA? ho hum Less $$$$$$$$ there
olduglymeanhonest

[Billsmile]

297. Root Causes

What needs to be done is determine the root cause(s) of all this crap we have to deal with & change it/them.

Liberals need to get together & get focused.

[immune]

311. Who defines "value" and "worth"?

These are the root causes of the crap we deal with.

If dollars suddenly lost value and worth, nothing would move. Nothing. And that's what needs to be changed. So if not now, when, and if not us, who?

[mmonk]

300. On behalf of Keith and Rachel, they haven't appeared to me to be

goose steppers.

[inna]

305. Clearly, they are way better than Beck and Co., but just by virtue of working for

corporate media, they are not not exposing the underlying causes of the systemic rot in the system.

[defendandprotect]

331. Prefer Schultz . . . didn't like Rachel's visit to Afghanistan . . .

but -- no they're not "goose steppers," of course --

but I've always thought that they were put in place somewhat to

combat Jon Stewart?

Always thought odd that MSNBC -- with NBC owned by the rw GE -- would be

giving us Ratigan, Schultz, Olbermann, Maddow? Maybe I'm wrong --

they shifted early -- maybe realizing their military bread was now going to

be buttered by a Dem pres???

[WinkyDink]

337. The coup d'etat was complete with the SCOTUS 2000 Decision.

[defendandprotect]

339. And, IMO, that was set up long before in this way . . .

We're not only facing sabotage by the voting computers --

the large computers used by MSM also began coming in during the mid-late-1960's --

Prior to that time, MSM could only report on actual vote tallies --

The large computers gave MSM new powers to PREDICT and CALL elections -- PREDICT and

CALL Electoral College votes and to CALL the election for a new president.

We simply saw those powers reversed in 2000 --

Btw, late 1960's was just about the time we were passing "The Voting Rights Act" --



There was an interesting investigation of the computers in late 60's/early 70's by

two Florida journalists - who wrote a book about the investigation called VOTESCAM --

"The Stealing of America" which was pretty much taken off the book shelves after

arriving! You can read the book at the website which the family keeps going --

it's also available here and there for $2 --


www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

[Butch350]

342. You left out one thing

What are we supposed to do? Cry on each others shoulders?

[Liberation Angel]

345. We are supposed to keep opposing Fascism

while, like a virus, it can become dormant and sleep even for centuries

we can learn to keep it in check or even keep it dormant. I am not sure it can be eradicated...

BUT

I would say the survival of humanity and most of the life on this planet depends on us doing that.

So THAT is what we must do.

Keep opposing evil.