7 Reasons NOT to send your child to college

[SoCalDem]

My take: Perhaps instead of saving for college, a better idea might be to save for a decent car and/or a down payment on an affordable living accommodation for them. Even with a mediocre income, if one has no car payment and minimal housing expense they can often afford to "attend college" on a part-time basis, taking courses they want to, to enrich their lives as well as prep for a career.

the article follows:




http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/investing/seven-reasons-not-to-send-your-kids-to-college/19572537/


Seven Reasons Not to Send Your Kids to College

By JAMES ALTUCHER Posted 10:00 AM 08/02/10 Economy, People, Investing, Video

Imagine a retirement where you could have an extra $1million to $3 million in the bank with basically no effort. Now imagine telling your kids that you aren't going to send them to college. And, you go on, you want them to immediately start a business or get to work as soon as they finish high school. These are difficult things to imagine because we've been so scammed by the "career industry" that tells us we need college degrees in order to succeed in life, regardless of how much money we spend for those degrees or what we actually do with our lives during the four to eight years it takes us to get those degrees. But in my view, the entire college degree industry is a scam, a self-perpetuating Ponzi scheme that needs to stop right now.

Here Are Seven Reasons to Say "No College" to Your Kids:

1. More than 60% of people entering college take more than four years to graduate. So whatever you think your kids are going to cost you to go to college, add 20% to 100%.

2. The cost of the average college tuition has gone up nine-fold since 1976 versus seven-fold for health care and three-fold for inflation.

3. The differential in lifetime income between a college graduate and a non-college graduate over a 45 year career is approximately $800,000 (read on).

4. If I put that $200,000 that I would've spent per child to cover tuition costs, living expenses, books, etc. into bonds yielding just 3% (any muni bonds) and let it compound for 49 years (adding back in the 4 years of college), I get $851,000. So my kids can avoid college and still end up with the same amount in the worst case.

snip

[Greyhound]

1. Especially since collage has been turned into post-secondary vocational training,

that doesn't even come with a job at the end.

[SoCalDem]

6. Having 24 yr olds with $30K of college debt, is NO benefit to society either

Raising debt-free kids is a bigger benefit than having a $50K piece of paper to hang on a cubicle wall, especially if they cannot afford rent or a car payment or food.

It's sad to see what college has become.. Kids think they have to have it, and many times they do not..

My son started his own business and so did his wife. Their college is not being "used" except for the mind-broadening & stimulated intellect they both have. She has a degree in business admin & graduated at the same time everyone was being laid off in that field, but she's using it for their own businesses.

He's a summa cum laude guy who happens to love working with his hands.. He's artistic, in addition to being a math whiz (calculus without paper:grr: ) So he has a custom tile company & has more business than he can handle. They bought a house last year & put down $80K..They are both savers & are making double payments so they can have their house paid off early. He hires his friends who graduated from college & starts them out at $13 an hour & then gives them raises as they learn stuff.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. The book "shop class as soulcraft" was an epiphany to me.

http://radhakrishna.typepad.com/rks_musings/2009/08/shop-class-as-soulcraft-summary.html

[damntexdem]

17. So fight those who are trying to make higher education a corporation.

Attack those who push the McUniversity, not the University.

[Greyhound]

27. I do, any chance I get. n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

47. Is that not the truth?

I went back for a second baccalaureate and the teachers were sleep-walking through their over-sized classes.

[Cid_B]

117. At least we can tell the difference between a "collage" and "college"

Couldn't help myself...

[Greyhound]

118. Another reason to read what you write and not rely solely on spell-check.

:blush:

[AlabamaLibrul]

2. "Oh, I chose to invest in municipal bonds at 3%" doesn't cut it for employers in this economy

who want advanced degrees for entry-to-mid level skilled jobs.

Although I guess if this economy kept up and the only jobs were at continuously-growing cancerous behemoths like Walmart, at least they won't peg you as "overqualified" (the biggest joke ever, and it's on the American workforce).

[MadHound]

3. The author is making a common mistake,

Thinking that the only purpose of college is job training. That has never been the primary reason to attend college. Rather, college is designed to get you to expand your horizons, think in both a critical and purposeful way, and to expose you to different points of view.

Yes, you need a college degree to obtain certain jobs, and the fact of the matter is that if you feel the calling to a certain field, such as medicine, education, etc., the only way you can get into that field is through college.

Besides, without a college degree you are consigning an intelligent human being to a frustrating life of drudge work, a cruel fate.

There is no doubt that college tuition is too high. But rather than urging people not to attend college, this author would be better off offering solutions to bringing down the high cost of tuition rather than simply proposing that people don't receive higher education.

[Jackpine Radical]

5. We need universal free education, K-PhD/MD

Anyone with the talent ought to be allowed to rise as far as they want on the educational ladder.

[Bigmack]

7. Absolutely....

The GI bill proved that "free" education paid for itself in higher wages... ergo, higher taxes... for the people who got that education.

[stray cat]

9. And anyone who doesn't make the cut doesn't attend - strictly merit

just like in India - demanding testing including practicums - if you are in the top 10% you get a free ride as long as you stay near the top throughout your training.

I would like to see a merit system for education beyond highschool but most of our students would not be attending.

[uncommon]

40. Precisely!

[damntexdem]

21. Hear, hear. Failing that, at least go back to better public funding.

After taking five years (and accumulating 160-some credits) and graduating with a double major, I had NO debt. It was a combination of low tuition at a state university and working (at minimum wage yet) on campus while living at home. And I got a damn-good baccalaureate education. Went back later and got my masters and doctorate degrees.

[SheilaT]

50. How long ago was that?

Recently I tried to explain to my younger son (now 23, graduated college last year) that back when I first went to college in the mid-60's, a summer minimum wage job, if you lived at home and saved most of your wages, easily paid tuition, fees, and books. Easily. You'd still need to live at home, because the cost of room and board was so much more than tuition, fees, and books, but it was doable. Today, even at most public colleges, those three things are well over what a kid can hope to earn during the summer, even at a $10/hr job, if one that pays that well can be gotten.

Some of us elders aren't fully connected with just how much the cost of attending college has gone up since we went.

[Arkana]

122. Hear hear!

I hate it when I see brilliant kids kept out of good schools because they were unable to afford them. It's crap. We deliberately discourage the best and the brightest.

[county worker]

131. Nothing is free!

We need free this and free that! Get over it! There is nothing free!

[Jack_DeLeon]

10. I think the problem is encouraging everyone to go to college...

It makes everyone have the stereotype that if you dont have a degree you will be stuck doing "drudge work."

If less people went to college then tuition wouldnt be as high since there would be less demand, thus the people who really want or need a degree would be better served by that and by perhaps more personal attention in smaller classes.

[uncommon]

39. Exactly - not everyone needs to go to college - a minority of people actually *need*

a college education.

It's a scam.

[Donnachaidh]

45. have you applied for work lately?

There are many *drudge jobs* out there that REQUIRE a college degree.

In the REAL world, if you don't have a degree, ANY degree, you DO get stuck looking for drudge work. You DEFINITELY get offered LESS pay, without that sheepskin.

College is no longer an *option* for a living wage - it's a REQUIREMENT. And to think otherwise is foolish.

[tinymontgomery]

71. I don't know

we're always need plumbers. brick layers, electricians etc. My son finished college last year and can't find anything in his field right now. I almost wish he had picked up a trade.



edited for repeated post

[tinymontgomery]

72. I don't know

we're always need plumbers. brick layers, electricians etc. My son finished college last year and can't find anything in his field right now. I almost wish he had picked up a trade.

Edited for repeated post

[tinymontgomery]

73. I don't know

we're always need plumbers. brick layers, electricians etc. My son finished college last year and can't find anything in his field right now. I almost wish he had picked up a trade.

[uncommon]

78. But they *shouldn't* - it is all part of the racket.

That is my point. And in large part they require degrees because *everyone* is encouraged to get one now unlike in the past.

[Raineyb]

98. Well NOT getting a degree in the current atmosphere certainly isn't going to change that

and it only makes it more difficult for you to get a job.

[uncommon]

101. It is difficult to get a decent job WITH a degree --

and I guarantee the unemployment numbers for college grads are artificially low due to many college grads living with their parents and never having had a job in order to collect.

It is not a magic piece of paper. It doesn't guarantee anything but debt for most people.

[Raineyb]

107. And if it's difficult for people WITH a college degree I guarantee it's even MORE

difficult for those without. And you don't have to do into debt to go to college. State institutions are a hell of a lot cheaper than a private university.

[uncommon]

108. I went to a state school, and qualified for a hell of a lot more financial aid than most,

and I still ended up with $10K in student loan debt.

I know people with 5-10 times that, many of whom went to state schools.

And some of them flip burgers and push mops. A few bartenders and a few who wait tables. There are no guarantees in life, regardless of whether or not one goes to college.

[Raineyb]

120. No one is arguing that there is. But these days you certainly are making things even more difficult

for yourself by not having a degree. I know for certain that no matter how much I impressed the bosses with my intelligence, the speed with which I learned things, and my competence at EVERYTHING I did that I was never considered to move up from where I was because I DIDN'T have a degree.

I'm not letting that happen to me again.

[JoeyT]

106. I wouldn't bet on that.

Of the people I know, the ones that didn't go to college are mostly skilled trades and they generally make far more than the people that did go to college. (By skilled trades I mean pipefitters, plumbers, riggers, welders, industrial electricians, HVAC techs, etc.) I think the lowest paid one of them makes about 25 bucks an hour. With 50 hours of voluntary overtime a week.

They're happier with their jobs and lives too. It helps that they didn't start out their adult life trying to pay their way out from under $50-100k+ in high interest loans.

[uncommon]

110. Exactly.

[Warpy]

18. That's the same mistake a lot of parents make

Face it, few kids are both academically talented and insatiably curious about specific fields of study. College is now seen as a stepping stone to the managerial class, usually lower to middle management, with the course of study largely irrelevant for the basic liberal arts degree.

College grads can spend a lifetime with clean hands in air conditioned rooms, but the work is often mind numbing, a different variety of drudgery.

In addition, some kids who were pushed through academics by ambitious parents find themselves much more suited to physical work, work where they can see a beginning and an end.

Add to all that the fact that few kids graduate without a crushing debt burden, and college seems like a worse and worse deal.

My advice to parents is to listen to your kids, respect their strengths and weaknesses and help them to plan around those. If they decide against college, don't push. Buy those bonds with what you had saved up to help them through school and do it with a clear conscience. You can always redeem them if the kids change their minds.

[Jim__]

23. My thought exactly.

And, yes, you can read books; but college can give you a structured program for what books to read, and intelligent, informed people to discuss the books with. Reading on your own is good; but college is a much more powerful program.

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. "how do you like them apples"

"See the sad thing about a guy like you is in 50 years you're gonna start doin' some thinkin' on your own and you're gonna come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life. One: don't do that. And two: You dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a f----n' education you coulda' got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library."

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/specialengagements/moviespeechgoodwillhunting.html

If education isn't an investment, then it must be a lifestyle purchase.

Besides, without a college degree you are consigning an intelligent human being to a frustrating life of drudge work, a cruel fate.

My experience has been exactly the opposite. http://radhakrishna.typepad.com/rks_musings/2009/08/shop-class-as-soulcraft-summary.html

[bergie321]

59. Love that movie

[uncommon]

81. I concur.

I went to college, but in many ways I regret it and 7 years later I still have $10K in loans to pay off. It took me 6 years to get a job that paid more than $20K a year.

It wasn't worth it. My current employer didn't ask to see a degree.

[JerseygirlCT]

44. Agreed

And I do think a good conversation on the outrageous inflation of tuition costs over the last 30 or so years would be quite fruitful.

[grace0418]

46. Exactly. College changed me for the better in a number of ways. And while the

*average* difference in income may be "only" $800,000, not having a college degree seems like a sure fire way to never get ahead. I know way too many incredibly smart people who can't even get a foot in the door because they don't have a degree. And this was before the economy went to shit.

Why would you want to put yourself at the greatest disadvantage for jobs? With 300 applicants for every job, who do you think employers are going to weed out first? People without college diplomas. Doesn't matter what their other skills or abilities are.

Absolutely agree, we need to find a way to bring down the cost of education, not encourage people to skip college.

[JoeyT]

109. "Who do you think employers are going to weed out first?"

First to be weeded out are ex-felons. People with degrees that aren't in that field go next. They'll be the first to haul ass for a job in their field even if it pays a little less. Third to go are people that are vastly overqualified for the position because it will be mind numbingly boring to them and they'll book at the first sign of a new job. Fourth to be weeded out are people with bad credit. So if you've ever missed a payment on your crushing student loan debt, good luck: You'll need it. By that point they've knocked out 90% or more of the applicants.
If the job doesn't require a degree, you put yourself at a disadvantage by having one.

[grace0418]

112. Actually, I listened to a story last year that said that even for jobs that don't require degrees,

employers are still choosing those with degrees over those that don't. They weed out the vastly over-educated and over-qualified because they are afraid they'll bolt when a better offer comes around, but when it comes down to the last x number of applicants, the ones with a basic college degree still get chosen over those with a high school diploma.

Ultimately, even if your scenario were true, I don't know why someone would limit oneself to only being qualified for jobs that don't require degrees.

[JoeyT]

115. It largely depends on the job.

Like I said upthread: The people I know that don't have degrees are all skilled trades, and highly paid skilled trades at that.

I wonder if in the next decade we'll see a surge of people not going to college and instead going for the highest paid skilled trades. That seems to be what drove the worth of a degree down in the first place. Especially degrees dealing with any kind of computer work.

[Raineyb]

135. That doesn't even take into consideration positions that once didn't require a degree but now does.

When I got hired for the job I used to work, you needed a HS diploma or a GED and they gave a small rather easily passed (at least in my opinion) test which they used to determine if you had enough math smarts to do the quality control work. The employer used a lot of temps back in the day and the temps had the same qualifications as those who were full timers. We used to get a lot of temps for 6 months and if they didn't get hired we wouldn't see them for awhile. A few years later about five years after I was working full time at this company, they changed the requirements for the position I held. Now the job itself didn't change but suddenly they were only interested in people with college degrees. Someone who had once temped for us came back as a temp but no longer could work in our department because she didn't have a college degree. She already knew the job but she wouldn't have been able to temp for our department because she had no degree. Mind you the job is exactly the same as it was when she did temp for us in our department but she's no longer qualified.

The job itself didn't actually change until the plant was about to close. And you know what? The new duties STILL didn't require any skills you couldn't obtain in high school.

Employers don't give a damn how intelligent you are they want to see that diploma even if you're the dumbest fuck on the planet. And anyone who advises no college is doing whomever they are advising a grave disservice.

[lumberjack_jeff]

137. This is why I don't give a shit about counterfeit degrees.

$299 gets you the paper, they just skip all the pretensions. The degree is all about risk aversion in the HR department. They want a shortcut.

I have as much sympathy for colleges as I do for the RIAA and for the same reason.

[Raineyb]

154. Maybe so but not giving a shit doesn't get you hired if the employer decides the position needs a

candidate with a degree. And it doesn't get the rent paid and food put on the table either.

[grace0418]

138. I've seen the same thing over the years. You can always leave out the details of your degree if

you think the employer will weed you out for being too overqualified. You can't honestly say you have a college degree when you don't.

I can't see why someone would choose to limit their potential by not going to college unless they really, truly couldn't handle it. It just broadens your horizons in a way that little else can do except maybe travel. I was such a different person after graduating, and I wish that for everyone.

[paparush]

85. My first IT boss didn't go to college and he ran a successful software development comapny.

Not exactly a frustrating life of drudge work or a cruel fate.

[MadHound]

102. Nice for him,

But for every such positive anecdotal story like that, you can find a dozen or more where the person who didn't attend college wound up in some dull, drudge job.

[JoeyT]

111. And for every positive anecdotal story about someone with a degree making a million a year

you can find a hundred people with degrees working at McDonalds or Wal-Mart.

[Ruby the Liberal]

4. Now all we have to do is convince employers that a degree isn't a requirement

for a minimum wage clerking job.

[Jack_DeLeon]

8. I tend to agree, the education-industrial complex hasnt been a good deal for individuals for a while

Encouraging too many people to people to waste too much money and time and flooding the market with people who have degrees some of them who probably shouldnt.

[SoCalDem]

12. The sad thing is that so many degrees are in wonderful things, but they do not translate into jobs

Just how many art historian jobs are there?

or library science jobs (as libraries close down all around us)

And look at all the eager young people who thought that IT would be their ticket to riches:(

[Jackpine Radical]

20. There was a time when universities weren't businesses.

A time when people attended because of a love of knowledge. A time when philosophy, history, literature, music and the like were viewed as pursuits worth doing for their own sakes, or more properly, for the sake of what they brought to the student. Some would say that only the rich could afford to spend that much time learning things unrelated to a vocation, I guess, but there were always jobs for literate and cultivated people. Now we have high-class vocational schools with majors like fashion design, hotel management, and package engineering. I certainly don't begrudge the graduates of those programs the salaries they walk into after graduation (or used to, anyway, before our current mess), but neither do I find them educated in any real sense.

[T Wolf]

11. Counting dollars to evaluate the worth of a university education is a rethug way of thinking.

And very wrong, IMO.

Not to say that everyone should go to college - but even in the fucked-up world of modern America, being

E d u c a t e d

in the manner that a good university will do (as opposed to a glorified technical, job-training institute) will benefit the individual more than can be measured by dollars and cents.

[SoCalDem]

13. Unfortunately, we keep score in dollars

and being educated is fine, but if you cannot translate that into income, it's not worth much....especially if you are still paying off college debt as you prepare to retire from Walmart:(

[Jack_DeLeon]

28. You can be educated and not go to college...

also it can be argued that alot of the people who get degrees from college arent really educated either.

[renate]

14. This is definitely something to think about

And I say this as a child of people who taught in the humanities: I would really discourage my kid from majoring in something like sociology or English, at least these days. With the kind of debt that's rung up, only skills that are directly applicable to a profession (accounting, engineering, chemistry, agriculture) make financial sense, even if a degree in the humanities makes a student a well-rounded person. (If college were free, I'd feel a lot differently.)

I think college for 18-year-olds, unless they're really motivated and driven, should be postponed until it's something they really truly want. The gap year that's customary in England would be a fantastic chance for kids to realize that school isn't as hard as the kind of job you get without a college degree. Even if the gap year is only used for fun, that's still one more year of maturity.

[damntexdem]

15. What unadulturated crap! Just another attempt to further dumb down America.

And the shame is that some on here defend it.

The first point, taking more than four years to graduate: Higher education is not just for the rich but for all populations, including those who work hard to put themselves through college, so take longer. Moreover, for those of us who could have done it in four years, many of us took longer to take more, learn more, pick up a wider diversity of courses. Well, and for us males in the 1960s, to keep our draft deferments longer. ;-)

Point two, higher tuition: blame state legislatures. The states have long been shifting more of the burden onto students and off state treasuries. Adequate public funding higher education could keep it open to all populations, including the poor -- and reduce the delays in acquiring degrees caused by needing to work one's own way through.

Points three and four, lifetime income: bullshit! Two points here. One, lifetime income is clearly enhanced by college, which allows savings that are invested, so that the long-term outcome is superior to not going to college and investing the resources up front. Two, it's not just about income -- higher education helps many to become better-informed, thinking, rational citizens.

Point five, types of students: disgusting. Simply an attack on those who don't turn out as successfully. Unsupported conjecture at best.

Point six, average debt burden: go back to point two. When states adequately funded higher education, students had lower debt burdens.

Point seven, alternatives to "wasting" time in college. Just more of the anti-education rhetoric. Just more of the attempted dumbing down of the American population.

What's truly sad is to see DUers swallowing, or even vomiting, this nonsense.

[uncommon]

41. Have you been to college recently? They've dumbed IT down to accommodate people who have no place

in higher education.

I tutored students at my college who could barely write a sentence. Once upon a time those people would have been trained in a trade or taken a decent paying factory job - now they are flooding colleges.

Not everyone is intellectually capable of completing college level coursework - and the colleges are dumbing down the work rather than excluding more students which is what they should be doing.

[SoCalDem]

42. and a LOT of that college debt people wear like an albatross is due to remedial classes

they have to take because that "B+" they got in high school is not up to snuff in many colleges..

[Rabrrrrrr]

52. Spot on fucking BINGO!

One hates to be an elitist, but let's be honest - colleges should be for the folk at the top of the academic chain, who are also going to be the group of people out of whom the group of people who actually want to college will come.

But sometime in the last generation, society decided that college is about job training (and fucking hell, look at the ads on TVs from universities - even legitimate and good ones! - that talk solely about 'preparing for your future job', and say nothing about 'you'll come out of here a better human being and member of society because you'll actually know stuff and know how to think') and not about education. Classes dealing in the humanities and arts get cut because helicopter parents demand that their precious children "not waste their time learning stuff they won't need on the job!"

Reduce attendance at colleges and increase possibilities for the non-college minded to enter apprenticeships in whatever field of work interests them.

Also, universal health care will help - people can then go work jobs for the sole reason that they love it, even if it doesn't pay well, and won't be forced to look at a college education based on the health benefits of the job they'll get later.

America used to be the world center of innovation, invention, and moving forward - because we had a system in which people could do what they want (and no, I'm not being naively nostalgic, I know it wasn't this way for everyone) and experiment and play around and ask all sorts of seemingly silly questions that led to the steam engine, electric lights, photography, transistors, and putting men on the moon.

The whole fucking system is a Republican wet-dream: turn the centers of education into centers of job training; link the colleges to corporations; destroy public K-12 education so that most people grow up stupid (except, of course, the corporatist kids whose families send them to the few good private schools to get an education to be managers and work at the top of the job food chain); defund the schools so that the graduates are saddled with debt and forced to take shitty jobs to pay it all back...

total wet dream for the republicans.

[uncommon]

80. Exactly - I'm not saying those who really desire and can handle higher ed shouldn't have access to

it - but in most of the world people have to work hard and be pretty smart to make it to the university level. And that's a good thing, because the world isn't designed to fit billions of intellectuals, lawyers and doctors - these are the people who should be going to college.

The rest are simply being promised something that *will never be delivered* - and they are paying the price for it.

[Arkana]

147. So your solution is to tell people "Hey, don't send your kid to college!"

"Make 'em learn a trade like plumbing! Or undertaking! Or maybe there's some spots at the local Citgo!"

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. "Unadulturated"? Seriously? n/t

[kiranon]

130. Agree. My kids come first rather than my earning x more on a bond.

The highest and best thing my kids can do for themselves, for me and for their fellow citizens is to get a college education if they can and, if not, to become lifelong readers who are curious about the world and sceptical of those who want to prevent them from learning.

[uncommon]

133. If you are concerned about your kids, make them understand that entering adulthood with thousands of

dollars of debt is not going to help them get ahead.

[SoCalDem]

140. and it FORCES them into making some bad job choices

being young and debt-free gives them some latitude and may actually open their minds to different choices. Taking a "hum-drum" job to put food on the table, and having extra time to pursue a passion may lead to a career that makes them their own boss...If every penny you earn goes for housing, car payments & student loans, your quality of life is not gonna be all that great. I foresee a LOT of unhappy 45 yr olds who were made "old" before their time:(

[dionysus]

141. i think they either dropped out or didn't get accepted...

[rucky]

16. Here's what I will suggest to my daughter...

If you're not sure what you want to do, go to Community College for a year or two, kick ass, and finish off in 4-year.

I'll do my best to give her the best education possible, but I'm not - and don't want her to be - stuck on the conventional route that was never questioned by my parents.

[SoCalDem]

19. Lots of kids do that here in SoCal..

They have to be careful though to make sure that their credits will transfer fully.

There is also a problem (out here at least) of classes that are needed, being canceled or being too full.

There's a whole paradigm shift going on..It's very hard for young people now to get ahead when so many start out so far behind:(

[damntexdem]

22. That IS a good strategy -- if that's what the kid wants to do.

Unfortunately, community college teaching varies wildly in quality (as does university teaching but a bit less so), so students need to seek out the classes with the better teachers. That done, community college teaching can be excellent and a good transition to the university campus.

[CBR]

24. I agree. My husband went to a community college, earned his AA,

worked for a year and then went to the local university. The key was that he was enrolled in a feeder program -- a program wherein the community college and local university have an agreement about transfer credits, degree progress etc... It was great for him and cheaper for us!

[U4ikLefty]

74. Good advice...it worked for me.

I went to a Community College to get my General Studies out of the way. I took a lot of math, because it interested me & I knew that math was the key to most of the technical fields.

Well after getting my AA in General Studies I dropped out (due to wine, women and song) for 10 years.

Long story short, when I got my shit together, I qualified for a good State University (Cal Poly Pomona). I got my Engineering degree at 40 & today I am a Professional Engineer making 3x what I was making driving a forklift...and I love my job.

Community College is such a treasure to the working-class kids & adults. It's one of the best things about America.

[Stevenmarc]

25. Really, this coming from a person that advocates insider trading

[slampoet]

26. I can design and build electronics. Can't get hired to do it w/o an official degree.

[Fumesucker]

29. My daughter is a thirty year old mother of three with no college..

Not just no degree, no college at all, she got married shortly after HS and became a Marine wife and then fairly quickly a mother.

She starts tomorrow at a job as office manager and executive assistant making $32k/year with immediate full benefits including insurance, there were 1200 applicants for the job in the space of 24 hours after it was posted on Craiglist and the person doing the hiring interviewed continuously for two days after winnowing the emailed applications.

I'm sure that at least a few of those applicants had college degrees, quite possibly many of them did and yet the job went to someone without any college at all.

Go figure.

[SoCalDem]

34. Personality & confidence can trump a degree

Good for her & congrats on the new job:)

[Fumesucker]

38. Thanks..

It doesn't hurt that she is a very good writer and yes, she does present herself very well.

Now, if only *I* could find a job. :)

[msanthrope]

160. She's getting hosed. She's doing two jobs for less than what I would have taken for one.

An office manager AND an executive assistant????

That's two job descriptions. And I made 32k in ONE of those positions--in 1989.

Heck--I've hired those positions, and I wouldn't hire anyone for either position who didn't have some schooling beyond High School.

Good luck to her.

ETA--when you say 'full benefits' are you claiming that she's getting health care? Or was this a savvy employer who figured out that she and her kids would be TriCare, and the employer's health insurance a distant second?

[old mark]

30. College is a racket - I am glad someone else believes it....nt

[dkf]

31. What awful advice. Take a look at unemployment rates of college grads

And non college grads and tell me college is of no use. Further, tell me you would have saved the equivalent of the cost of the college education and I won't believe you.

It's better for my family if you all don't go to college because that makes the future college grads in my family that much more viable in the job market. Credentials are marketing. Without them you are taken less seriously at first glance. You have to go the extra mile to establish yourself as credible.

[DailyGrind51]

126. In DuPage County, IL , there are 750 applicants for each elementary ed position!

[SoCalDem]

139. and most of those teachers still owe on college debt, even if they are not teaching

:(

[DailyGrind51]

33. Some students would do far better and be much happier in a trade.

There is nothing wrong with becoming an electrician, plumber, carpenter, auto mechanic, concrete mason, machinist, or tool maker. I earned two graduate degrees, yet make less than half of what my cousin's high school graduate son makes laying phone cable and installing junction boxes.

[SoCalDem]

35. and those jobs cannot be outsourced

:)

My middle son was so proud that one of the doors he made & carved is now in Hearst castle.. He sent us a picture & you could not tell which was the original and which was the one he made:)

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. Exactly. I spent 30 years doing "knowledge work"

Today, my neighbor and I build boats at home. It is a far more fulfilling and intellectually stimulating gig.

And at the end of the day, I can point to some tangible good.

[DailyGrind51]

89. Why do you think "white collars" have work benches in basements?

They want to build and fix things with their hands. My happiest moments are spent in the garage with a wrench in my hand, thinking of the money I'm saving by "doing it myself"!

[DailyGrind51]

79. Damn right! Tradesmen were the forefathers of the "Middle Class"!

[Yavin4]

105. But They Can Be In-Sourced

The trades are where new immingrants flock to when looking for work.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. As a former college professor, I strongly believe that young people should NOT go to college

unless they have either 1) a strong intellectual interest in some area or 2) plans for a very specific vocation that requires a college degree (medicine, law, engineering)

We need to find alternative routes to adulthood for young people who aren't academically inclined, because what happens when they go to college is that they complain, cheat, avoid all experiences that could expand their horizons, and spend every spare moment partying. ("International night at the dining hall? I'd better go to McDonald's." "Foreign films? Nobody really enjoys those." "Concerts? Boring!" "Plays? Boring!" "Speeches by distinguished visitors? Boring!") The college environment is wasted on such people. They could stay in their hometowns and get drunk.

In addition, I wish the U.S. would join the Working Holiday Program. Australia, New Zealand, the UK, France, Japan, Korea, Canada, and I don't know who else, participate it in it.

It works like this--You pick one of the participant countries and, if you're under 30, you can apply for a 6-month renewable working visa there. You get on a plane with your visa in hand, land in the country of your choice, and start job hunting. Employers are spared the hassle of processing your visa application.

The catch is that you have to LIVE in a member country already, so young Canadians can pick up and go work in a foreign country easily and young Americans can't.

Having too much international experience that doesn't involve killing people might make young Americans too...international.

[jobendorfer]

48. along the same lines

Rick Steves ( travel expert ) has suggested that every (American) high school student should spend 2-3 weeks in a foreign country as part of their studies. I really think he's on to something there.

J.

[SoCalDem]

56. Our son went to college for a semester in Florence.. It cost a lot, but he learned so much

and he traveled all over Europe. You can't learn" that without going "there".. He's been back to Europe 3 times since :)

[Fearless]

51. +1

[Rabrrrrrr]

53. I hate when you speak so truthfully. It irritates the inner freeper in me

who fears everything that's not me, and especially finds ungodly all foreigners, and knows that the arts are Satanic.

[jdp349]

63. I agree - the liberal arts aren't for everyone

Some people just don't have the curiosity for it. I was shocked when I realized that for the vast majority of students (and this is at NYU) thinking stops when class is out. I couldn't believe and still can't get over the fact how little individual thinking college seems to provoke in most students. Whenever I took a philosophy course huge chunks of my world view just crumbled and I was left putting it back together over the months but ultimately came up with something much stronger thanks to having access to a huge amount of new ideas and information.

We need alternatives. College right now is just some sort of catch all right of passage which is rather ridiculous.

[DailyGrind51]

92. I actually dropped out after my first year to work for a year, only to return

to complete my Bachelors and goo on to eventually complete two graduate degrees, the last after the tender age of 56.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

145. I had several older students during my 11-year teaching career

They were wonderful, because they knew exactly why they were there, and their life experience added depth to class discussions.

[DailyGrind51]

153. And, a lot of us "oldsters" received our bachelors degrees prior to "grade inflation".

My graduate work was regarded by professors as consistently superior to that of my younger classmates.

[eleny]

49. #4 is an eye opener

[SheilaT]

54. College has too often been confused with trade school.

I can't count the number of times I've heard someone complain, "I (or my kid) got a degree in anthropology and now can't find a job! OH, the injustice of it all!"

The original point of a University education was to produce an educated elite, not to guarantee a job.

We actually need to encourage a lot more attendance in trade schools or in union apprentice programs. And every single person who chooses to go to a four year college or university needs to be crystal clear on the employment prospects after they get their degree with the English or history or political science major.

This is related: about a year and a half ago it was impossible for me to get temp work where I now live (Santa Fe). I'm qualified for basic clerical/secretarial sorts of things, and the jobs dried up totally. Except, as all of the job-placement people at each of the FOUR temp agencies I was registered with said, if I could do at least basic bookkeeping. And every single one of them told me there were jobs begging for people with high-level accounting skills.

So those of you who like numbers, go for the accounting degree.

[Raineyb]

99. That is exactly what I'm doing now. I got laid off and the job I was doing with a

high school diploma is no longer open to me. My former employer wants a four year degree. A former co-worker who is in charge of hiring prefers someone with an associate degree at least. I have neither but I'm two classes away from getting my associate degree. I'm majoring in accounting. And I'm really enjoying it.

[Cleita]

55. Or, we could make our state colleges and universities

tuition free like they used to be in California before Howard Jarvis fucked the state up.

[uponit7771]

58. Yeap, a 2yr then an in state college is cheaper than private schools

[uponit7771]

57. Junior college then in state 4 and 6 year. You wanna pay 44k a year for college then that's your

...prerogative

[NotThisTime]

60. We value education so little this is what it comes to, we don't need no stinking scientists....

or nurses or doctors or architects or engineers or teachers.... or, well any of those jobs.

[Pholus]

61. If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

Seriously, what's with all the anti-education stuff on DU right now? Are we in training to be freepers or something?

[lonestarnot]

66. No shit!

You won't hear any condemnation of the goal from me. Once you get it, they can never fucking take it away unless they strap you down and give you a brain make-over for debt collection. :)

[uncommon]

90. College does not cure one of ignorance --

it really doesn't. Think about all those freepers and conservative politicians who went to college, and many to law school.

College is not necessary for everyone.

[Liberation Angel]

62. k&r

yup

[scheming daemons]

64. #4 is WAY off.... most people don't pay 100% of their kids' college tuitions

They get grants and other forms of aid for a chunk of it.


Also... You can go to a 4-year state-related school for $25000-$30000 per year including everything. That's a lot less than $200,000.

[uncommon]

86. Most of that *aid* is loans --

loans that have to be paid off. It's hard to pay off those loans when you come out of college and land a sweet $10/hr job.

Most students are not eligible for much in the way of grants and scholarships.

[Taitertots]

65. What a load of pro-ignorance drivel

His whole argument is centered around the idea that it costs money to send your children to college. Some people care more about their children than money, I guess this douche doesn't.

[uncommon]

82. It doesn't just cost parents money - it costs students unbelievable amounts of money

to go to college - the vast majority have to finance it and are left with thousands in student loans and few job prospects to help them pay off those loans.

We are in a vicious cycle where every kid is being encouraged to go to college, so every employer is requiring a degree, and thus even jobs (and it's the vast majority of jobs) that don't really require higher education are very hard to get.

It's ridiculous.

I care more about my daughter than I do about money - which is why I will educate her about ALL of her options and about how to *NOT* saddle herself with a ton of debt she can't afford at the tender age of 18.

[Taitertots]

143. The dramatically higher average incomes and lower unemployment rate

Make up for the cost of education within a few years.

The other options: Much lower wages, much higher unemployment, and intentional lack of knowledge.

[scheming daemons]

67. The Number ONE reason that this OP is full of FAIL

June 2010 Unemployment Rate:

Overall: 9.5%


College Grads: 4.7%
Some College: 8.0%
High School only: 9.8%
No H.S. Diploma: 15.4%


http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf

[uncommon]

83. There is a deeper issue here --

which is that the class war is being perpetuated even further by people with good intentions pushing every student into college when most jobs do not require a college degree in reality - but they do on paper now because every student is encouraged to get a degree.

It - is - a - racket.

[SoCalDem]

142. Another issue "was" the whole endowment program scheme

There was a study done a while back (& a book written) about how "major" colleges hoarded their endowments & invested & reinvested them to compete with each other in the "money game". Of course now a lot of that "on-paper" wealth has evaporated, since the market collapse took much of it away (wonder how much Madoff "made-off" with).

Many wealthy donors were horrified when they learned that the endowment money they had specifically earmarked as "student aid", never reached students because they were steered to loans, when there was ample grant money that should have been theirs for the asking.

[CBR]

84. Exactly!! nt

[uponit7771]

155. Amen!!!

[glen123098]

68. Nope, I'll stick to college thank you.

Without College I'd be stuck with some shitty McDonalds job making 8.50 an hour. The article claims that if you take money and invest it you will get a better return than college, but if you don't make enough money from working a minimum wage job to even pay the bills, how the hell are you gonna invest?

[uncommon]

88. I have a friend with a BA who works at McDonald's. And another with a Masters who is a janitor.

There is no guarantee of a good job.

[happy_liberal]

69. my kids are homeschooled and can begin college courses when they are jrs in high school

get the easy ones out of the way paid for by federal education$$

Alaska is working on a program to fund A students 100% college tuition at the University of Alaska, B students 75% tuition or whatever they come up with.

But I have always felt strongly that I will make this a choice for my kids. I hope they pursue creative activities and avoid the grunt work entirely whether they go to college or not. They are definitely talented enough, especially with the education they have gotten by allowing them the freedom to pursue their own interests through homeschooling. It is amazing when you give kids freedom to learn, they actually find things more interesting.

We get a permanent fund dividend up here which many people put in college funds for their kids. I just put it in a life fund which I will hand to them for whatever they choose...buying some land, building their own home, starting a business...whatever they want.

[Strelnikov_]

70. A nation that sits around waiting for the dividend check

instead of developing the knowledge and skills necessary to help the nation meet the challenges of a complex future.

America, FUCK YEA!!!!!!

[Liquorice]

75. I think it's a bad idea not to go to college. If you have the intellectual ability to get a degree,

you should do it. College is very enriching and can lead to many more opportunities for a satisfying career. Going to college part-time later in life would be very detrimental for a lot of career choices. Everybody is not cut out for college, however, and people who don't really have the intellectual ability to get a degree are nevertheless being pushed in that direction.

[flvegan]

76. It depends on the student. In my industry

I know a LOT of dumbfucks with advanced degrees that I wouldn't hire to wash my car. I also know a lot of HS grads that I can only wish that I'd be allowed to hire one day.

[Fumesucker]

87. +1.. Well said.. n/t

[petronius]

77. While I see flaws in the article, I agree that the need to go to college is overstated

A university education is a wonderful thing, but 'going to college' is not the same as 'getting an education.' Far to many students go straight to college after HS because it's just what you do, or because employers require it. However, universities aren't trade schools, and there's no particular reason tho think that a degree makes you any more qualified for the vast majority of jobs out there. I would really like to see that mindset change - require degrees in jobs where it's actually relevant, and get away from this notion that everyone has to have one. Cut down on the number of students who go to college, and let universities focus on those who really want to be there...

[Brewman_Jax]

91. College should be an option

because a friend's son just enlisted in the Army. She isn't thrilled with his decision, but he isn't a good student and would likely be bored in college. He'd have a better than average chance of failing out or dropping out and the money would have been wasted.

He's doing it to "blow shit up".

I like the ideas of a year off between high school and college to see what's out there and state funding for higher education so people can afford college and not have decades of debt waiting after graduation.

It's sad that there's always money for bombs and bullets, but none for books. :(

[dionysus]

93. yay, anti-intellectualism on DU! woot woot.

:rofl:

[uncommon]

94. No one said intellectuals shouldn't go to college lol.

But people with average intelligence who do not aspire to be doctors, lawyers, etc should not need a college degree to have a decent middle class life.

That people don't understand this is baffling.

[lumberjack_jeff]

128. Intellectualism isn't something parents can buy.

But you can get it for free at the library.

"I'm an intellectual! See? Fancy embossed seal and everything! And signed in actual ink!"

[Arkana]

148. Seriously!

I never, EVER thought I would see the day where so-called "Democrats" would advocate against college.

[dionysus]

149. last few years i've seen a LOT of things i thought i'd never see here. some of the braver ones are

starting to openly campaign against dems as a whole now.

the naderites\larouchies makin' a comeback!!

:rofl:

[uncommon]

95. I think it's scary how many on DU have bought it hook, line and sinker --

do you all really think that most jobs should require a college degree? Do you really think that people of average and below average intelligence should be wasting money on college when they could be training for jobs? The same jobs they are told they will be eligible for after they rack up $10-100K in student loans?

Education is important - but higher ed shouldn't be a requirement to have a decent life in this country. It shouldn't be viewed as job training - job training should be viewed as job training.

I didn't learn a single thing in college that prepared me for the work I do today, and I have a decent paying white collar job.

[lumberjack_jeff]

129. Modern education has one primary purpose...

... to convince parents that they must buy a product to protect their children from dangerous or unpleasant work.

Welcome to the cubicle. It cost your parents $200,000, and allowed you to extend your adolescence another four years. Win-win.

[uncommon]

132. Precisely. It is absolutely sold as class insurance, and it doesn't even work a lot of the time.

[Dappleganger]

96. What we're doing now.

Oldest daughter just graduated w/honors from high school, but she made it CLEAR she hated school and has no intention to go to college. She asked to go to cosmetology school at the local, county-run tech school so that's what she's doing (she begins in a few weeks). It is very reasonable, she will finish in a year with no debt (while living at home). She will need to live here and work as an apprentice for two years or so and save her money, but then she can go wherever she wants. She also is very involved with the local theater company, helping with makeup (and will eventually help w/hair too). Her goal is to move to Seattle or Chicago and get involved in the theater world out there.

Our oldest son is a senior this year and he definitely is college-bound (enjoys school, performs well). He already is taking one community college class this summer and will continue taking his basic, general ed requirements then transfer to UNF which is local (he'll live with us too) and a great school which is still reasonable. Anything beyond a bachelor's he'll have to foot the bill on his own. Sending your kid to community college first is a good way to save money and weed out those who aren't serious about school.

The other two are in middle school and they have no idea what they want to do, but we'll probably encourage the community college or trade school route when they graduate as well.

[SoCalDem]

144. My daughter-in-law went to cosmetology school right out of HS

and with her earnings from that job, she paid for college. She's dyslexic, so she knew better than to take too heavy of a class-load, so she took her time, lived at home and made enough to pay for school. It took her 9 years to get her degree.

She & our son dated for 4 years & were engaged for 4 years (never lived together), and a year after she graduated with a BA in business admin, they got married, paid for the wedding of their dreams , took a fantastic honeymoon cruise in Greece & Italy, and less than a year later plunked down $80K on a house.

She never found a job in her "field", and still works as a hairdresser and loves it. They have a 6-figure income between them. no debt and are on their way to a great life.

the NO DEBT part is the important part.. Maybe someday she will work in her field, but her current job gives her flexibility (she's been at the same spa-salon for 9 years and basically runs the place.)

[joeybee12]

97. Yeah, education is definitely a bad thing...

...sorry, any furthering of one's education is good...it might be too expensive and it might not be for everyone, but the author seems to hate dem dere book-lernin' folk.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

100. I have a problem with equating your high school grades with

intelligence and, as a result, the ability to go to a better college. It has been my experience that many people in my high school who were considered honor roll students didn't know their arses from their elbows when asked about what I would consider common and basic knowledge. Just because your kid is a straight-A student does not necessarily mean he/she is a genius worthy of Harvard.

Maybe it's because I was educated in Italy up to age 15 and there no one is prevented from getting into a university or a good college, even if the marks received were not that good, because it is well known that some students do better at higher levels of education than others (case in point, my sister, who graduated barely passing from Italian middle school, was able to go on and get a bachelor's at age 18 with good grades).

In other words, just because you have high grades does not make you any smarter or any more likelier to succeed in college. Just because you have lower grades in high school does not make you less smart or less motivated. I knew many nerdy types who were not excellent students but boy could they do math and actually have intelligent conversations, something other A student types could not.

Indeed, out of the 25,000 students my public land grant university had at the time I was there, many should not have been there at all, totally incapable of critical thinking and lacking what I would consider to be basic common knowledge, not to mention little knowledge of other cultures, countries and political institutions.

Yet, there are people who have never set foot in a high school classroom, whose education stopped in 7th or 8th grade, who are voracious readers, excellent debaters and excellent at any profession they could choose, but the lack of a degree or an education holds them down, while there are morons with master's or professional degrees even from the Ivies or similar who can't even find the U.S. on a map.

Education is more than a piece of paper... What good is your degree if you don't know just basic stuff about the world we live in? If you don't know who Mozart was, if you have no clue what Guernica is, if you think the Ming dynasty is the progeny of a basketball player, if you think Macchu Picchu is a kind of dog, then you are not 'educated' no matter what piece of paper hangs on your wall.

[distantearlywarning]

103. +1000 to this article

I'm a doctoral student who teaches undergrads, and I fully support this message.

[Yavin4]

104. I Agree With This OP and The Article, But There's One Point That You Missed

Our economy still values college degrees from "prestigious" universities over real-life experience.

[Yavin4]

113. To All Those Advocating Against College, I Have A Few Issues

1. Some of you advocate that people should instead learn a trade or work in a factory job. Well, if you haven't noticed manufacturing jobs have disappeared from the American economy. So, where are all of these trade jobs that you advocate. The few that are here will require a higher level of math and science knowledge than HS curricula currently offer.

2. Some advocate being a plumber or electrician. That's fine, but you'd better shut off all immigration, legal or otherwise, because the trades are the prime jobs that people with limited English skills flock to.

[GreenPartyVoter]

114. We live in a college town. I told my boys that they can live at home and just

take a few classes a semester. As someone else said up-thread college is not just about vocational training, it's about expanding your horizons and developing critical thinking skills. (We've got 6 years until this becomes an issue, but at least it's a possibility.)

[NNN0LHI]

116. The concept of "working ones way through college"' seems to have left our society

Had to take college courses as part of my apprenticeship after I got my job. And the company paid for all the tuition, books, and paid us our hourly rate for every hour spent in the classroom. That is the way it should be. Anything else sounds like a scam to me.

The idea of going in debt spending tens of thousands of dollars for the chance to apply for a job that may not be there doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Only people I knew who went into college right from high school were people who were going into a profession like engineering, CPA, lawyers or doctors. Professional people.

Don

[Silent3]

119. If college were more reasonably priced...

...this would be far less of an issue.

Why should the cost of college education have increased at THREE TIMES the rate of inflation over the past 30 or so years? I certainly don't see that the quality has increased that much. I'd love to see someone lay out all of the expenses in a college budget and attempt to justify them all.

If colleges want things like football teams and concert halls, those things should either be self-supporting ventures, or funded by philanthropy. Students just trying to get an education shouldn't be having to foot the bill for those things.

How much should it really cost to maintain a simple physical facility, provide text books and basic computers, and even a well-paid faculty, from whom each student gets only a small fraction of each instructor's time? Some programs might require more expense -- for lab equipment and other such things -- but those expenses are still being divided among many students, and for some things our government should be willing to provide grants to cover those expenses for the greater good of the country.

I don't claim to have done a thorough cost accounting, but the numbers just don't seem to add up to me. Someone, somewhere must be making off with a lot of our student's tuition money. I can't see how there isn't a large amount of waste, profiteering, or outright fraud lurking behind the scenes.

[ThomWV]

134. Why does it cost a dime more to run a College than a High School?

[MilesColtrane]

136. These guys don't work for cheap.

College Football Coaches Salaries - Top 10

1. Mack Brown, Texas---------$5,100,000

2. Bob Stoops, Oklahoma------$4,300,000

3. Urban Meyer, Florida--------$4,000,000
3. Lane Kiffin----------------$4,000,000

4. Nick Saban, Alabama--------$3,900,000

5. Les Miles, LSU-------------$3,800,000

6. Jim Tressel, Ohio State-------$3,722,000

7. Mark Richt, Georgia---------$3,096,576

8. Kirk Ferentz, Iowa----------$3,030,000

9. Bobby Petrino, Arkansas------$2,900,000

10. Mark Richt, Georgia--------$2,900,000

[hughee99]

151. If I'm not mistaken,

the Big 10 schools and Texas make roughly $18 million each for football TV revenues, and the SEC makes somewhere between $10 and 15 million a year. That's one reason these guys can get paid so much.

[MilesColtrane]

152. Whew, well as long as they don't use that money to bring costs down for the students!

[hughee99]

156. If they're making a profit on it,

it's not the reason tuition is so high, as you implied on your previous post. The money from football revenue is used to, among other things, provide scholarships (mostly for athletes) and fund other sports. Some of it does go back to the school, and while the school may or may not use it to lower student costs, that's not the football program's fault, it's the administration's fault.

This is the case at the schools you mentioned anyway. At smaller schools (where coaches make A LOT less and generate a lot less revenue) this may not be the case.

[Arkana]

121. With all due respect, this author can go stuff it.

College isn't just about job training. It's a life experience that is unlike any other and that every American should be allowed to experience--in my opinion, free of charge.

[uncommon]

123. Do you propose we make an additional 4 years of schooling public and mandatory?

The "life experience unlike any other" has become just like everything else. It is expensive, dumbed down for the lowest common denominator, and not preparing people to be functional adults.

[Arkana]

146. So what are you proposing? That we just tell young people to

forget about college? Yeah, great plan.

Also, I don't know where YOU went to school, but my college education was certainly not "dumbed down to the lowest common denominator". And I'm not proposing making it mandatory either.

But all you people in this thread who are going "Yeah, man, college is overrated, 420 smoke weed every day" make me sick. We're supposed to be Democrats--you know, the ones who VALUE education?

[dionysus]

157. "Yeah, man, college is overrated, 420 smoke weed every day"

:spray:

[4_TN_TITANS]

124. 8. Less competition for the kids of the ruling class....

[Xenotime]

125. Higher education is overrated.

It's become a path to make somebody better than somebody else and that is just not fair.

[backscatter712]

150. My niece ended up enlisting in the National Guard to get through college.

One of the perks of being in the Guard is that they'll pay for your education.

Of course, the downside is being sent to Iraq or Afghanistan and getting shot at. :-(

[salin]

158. Economic anomolous times.... Here's a story from worse economic times

My grandparents emigrated from Norway in the twenties. He got an engineering degree from MIT before the Great Depression hit. Worked for a few years, and then laid off with NO job prospects. He moved his family back to Norway. After a year or so, he realized that if he stayed in Norway the goal of 'moving to America' would not ever happen. So he left my grandmother and my mother in norway for a number of year while he worked as an itinerant worker. A degree from MIT - and almost no pay. Several years later, as the WPA picked up, his degree as a hydrolic engineer paid off as the aqueduct system was being built in LA. He can finally send for his family who later relocated to DC and had a stable life.

Before making assumptions (+ or -) per the value of a college education one has to look beyond these current economic times and have a longer horizon view. At this point, it is just hard to tell. Several years from now we will have a better sense whether or not those degrees are marketable, and to the degree to warrant the cost. It was years to normalize for my Mom's family (before she was no longer living with relatives in small apartments in Norway) until the career that would support a family kicked in.

[Politicub]

159. I consider getting a college degree one of the most significant things I've done

And if my house were to catch on fire, my diploma would be one of the things I would want to grab on the way out.

This article gives horrible advice. I would never recommend to someone that they don't go to college or trade school. Even if they just give it shot and decide it's not for them.

Going to college 19 years ago (has it been that long?) changed the trajectory of my life -- it enabled me to get out of the homophobic small town where I grew up, escape the cycle of rural poverty, and get life experiences I could only dream of.

And as an aside, I consider being gay as a gift that propelled me to follow my own drummer and imagine a better world. And at college, I loved being jolted by the ideas that the professors taught us. And getting involved with the LGBT group. And getting an appreciation for the humanities that I have carried with me ever since. And on and on and on. And all of this from a small state university.

It wasn't a cakewalk and was expensive, but I offset the expense with a part time job, working over the summer and seeking out grants and scholarships. I wasn't anything special in high school and didn't really know what "a liberal arts school" was, but I'm so happy I gave myself permission to try it on for size.

And, yes, Virginia. A liberal arts degree is still valuable and in-demand for a variety of professions today.

Follow your bliss, people! And encourage others to do so. :)