I hope the Mormon Church has its magic undies in a big, uncomfortable twisted wad today.

[Arugula Latte]

Same goes for the other bigoted churches!

[LostinVA]

1. k&r

[SalmonChantedEvening]

77. And another.

((((Arugula Latte)))) :loveya: :D

[LAGC]

2. Oh, the Mormons poured so much money into the Prop 8 campaign...

And to think, it was all for naught!

I'm still wondering why the Church didn't get its tax-exempt status yanked for blatantly involving itself in a political campaign in the first place... :grr:

[Xicano]

93. I think they didn't get their tax-exempt status yanked because

1) Cowardly politicians.
2) Lobbying Bribery.

[bigwillq]

3. K and R

:bounce:

[opihimoimoi]

4. KnR.... :o)

[Rabrrrrrr]

5. Ha ha! That's right! I forgot this was mostly their doing!

My first reaction was to hope that that criminal unethical theologically bankrupt windbag bigoted hatefilled fuckstain Rick Warren's head exploded.

[KamaAina]

6. I was harassing two missionaries just last night

I stopped just short of yelling "Your magic underwear is showing!"

Oh boy, maybe they'll be on the train again tonight... :evilgrin:

[Tikki]

7. I think of the M's in my town who donated heavily for 8...and I know who they are...

and what good could have been done to really help our community with the money they wasted
with all their hate.
But from my experience they are pretty much in it for themselves (their church) anyway.

Tikki

[Ken Burch]

8. Now,now, they're just defending the traditional Mormon family:

[Jefferson23]

42. LOL, good one. That is a great show btw. n/t

[DiverDave]

90. great show??

Where are the young boys?
thrown out in the street as those old perverts dont want the competition for the wives.

[Jefferson23]

106. Have you ever watched an episode? Big Love is not an endorsement

of polygamy...not at all.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

9. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of fellows. Here's a story I like to keep fresh in my memory...

...and share as much as possible:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2119025#2119602

Let me tell you of when a pair of Mormon "missionaries" came to MY door.

They started with the standard stuff about how wonderful this religion is and what a difference it made in their lives, blah, blah... standard proselytizing stuff. Then went on to talk about the "Indians = Jews" thing, which I thought amusing, but shrugged it off. Just some different mythology.

Then they went on to explain the "Mark of Cain" thing. Yep. Black people are that way because God's curse on Cain was making him black.

That bit was supposed to have been excised from Mormon canon -- but, if they suspect a favorable reception to it, they WILL use it.

The LDS can kiss my fat pasty-white liberal atheist butt.

(The thing is, I am very Nordic-looking for Brazilian standards. Quite white, blue-eyed, tall, fat, with a foreign accent. I've lost count of people who approached me hoping for friendly validation of their racism, certainly based on my looks.)

[arbusto_baboso]

10. Yes, of ALL the churches in this country, mormons have the LEAST cause to rail about "traditional

marriage". Of course, they try even now to deny they ever practiced polygamy where it was illegal. They whitewash their own history and lie to their members just like they lie to the general public.

[RainDog]

11. lol. magic undies. n/t

[Diclotican]

12. Arugula Latte

Arugula Latte

I don't know about the magic undies you are talking about, as my undies are rather comfortable, regular boxers, who im using and washing in the washing mashine regulary - as normals do.. And I have never used that magic undies ones... But then, i don't need holly undies to try to be a good man anyway...

And for the prop 8 and what maybe become the rewoke of it.. I have allways belived, that the church should not had involved itself into the prop 8 at all. It was wrong, and also a really STUPIC act on the churchs behaf... And I belive that it have damaged the church far more than even the discovery that our church leaders have had polygami for ages.... (As it was allowed to 1891)

I hope this prop 8 would be overturned, so gay peopole of both sexes can go marriage to who they love, and who they want to leave with the rest of the life.. I have allways thinking about prop 8 as a really wrong thing, and something that should not have happend in the first place....

So, thats for your biggoted mormon....

Diclotican

[grace0418]

40. Well this is right from a lds website, so it's not like Arugula Latte is making it up...

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/mormon/underwear/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment

[Diclotican]

13. Arugula Latte

Arugula Latte

I don't know about the magic undies you are talking about, as my undies are rather comfortable, regular boxers, who im using and washing in the washing mashine regulary - as normals do.. And I have never used that magic undies ones...

And for the prop 8 and what maybe become the rewoke of it.. I have allways belived, that the church should not had involved itself into the prop 8 at all. It was wrong, and also a really STUPIC act on the churchs behaf... And I belive that it have damaged the church far more than even the discovery that our church leaders have had polygami for ages.... (As it was allowed to 1891)

I hope this prop 8 would be overturned, so gay peopole of both sexes can go marriage to who they love, and who they want to leave with the rest of the life.. I have allways thinking about prop 8 as a really wrong thing, and something that should not have happend in the first place....

So, thats for your biggoted mormon....

Diclotican

[Critters2]

25. I dated a Mormon in college. He had already done his mission

(to Utah, where, it turns out, he didn't convert many people to Mormonism), and he definitely wore the special underwear. Even had this way of climbing out of one pair with one leg while putting a clean pair on his other leg, so that he was never completely out of his special undies. That was about the point where I decided I didn't want to be with him "for life and all eternity". I've lost touch. Last I heard he was raising a whole flock of little Mormons in Idaho. Knowing him, I have no doubt his magic undies are all in a bundle today.

[Diclotican]

28. Critters2

Critters2

Maybe it is different from where in the world you are living, but I have never been using the magic underwear, and must say I put my undies the regular way, with some nudety in the between... Or it can be different brances of the same Shurch... Im not sure, but Im have never really been exposed to the holy underwear thingy in my 7-8 year of membership.. Or maybe I understand that holy underwear thingy little different than your former friend... Some takes the word in the book little to the letter to, Im afraid...

Wel, its a hard work to be an missionary Im sure about.. That be in the great state of Utah, or in the bright, big world outside USA. And many missionaries I have talked to true the years, have told me, that to convert an person is no easy task... And Im sure that most missionaries is glad if they manage to convert a couple of persons the two year they are in the field.. Off course, they WANT to do better, but it's no easy task to do it im sure about.. As I was grown when I got into the church, and have never been a missionary.. And that is maybe for the best, as I have that little problem with walking up to other persons, that I don't know good.. I hate sosial gatering where I have to mingle with persons I don't know...

Wel, thats sound at least, that He have shoosen a path, for his life that he is lucky with his path... And it is no easy task to raising a whole flock of children anywhere... Its hard work, with mutch tribulations, and you are not sure you do the right stuff all the time either.... Have no children myself, as I dosen't have a vife yet... But when the time came, im not sure I want a flock of them... Better to have a few, and rise them wel, than to have a flock, and maybe not be able to rise them wel.. Anyway it is maybe more easy to live in a nabourhood, where all is at the same shurch, than in a small country, where the whole membership, are maybe 4000 in all... And stretch from Arendal in the South, to Vardø in the north (look up the map, and you wil understand, its a stretch (Im living in Norway by the way)

Diclotican

[arbusto_baboso]

44. If you've ever been to a mormon temple for endowment, then you DO wear magic underwear.

It's that simple. Don't try to obfuscate the realities of mormonism with a former mormon.

[Diclotican]

73. arbusto_baboso

arbusto_baboso

True, that is absolutely true... But I have NEVER used "holly underwear" outside Temple and only in the context of practising inside the walls of the Temple... That is just silly to use holly underwear in daily use... Thats some who read the text little to mutch to the letter... Thats my point, that a man (as in human) can use holly underwear underwear INSIDE temple gates.. But on the outside, in the world, you might use ordinary cloths... I at least do it, and I'm pretty sure that most of them I know, who are member of LDS, also use ordinary cloth, and no holly underwear.. But I have to say, I have not yet asked what type of underwear they are using - I find it to be little silly to ask that...

And I would never ever try to obfuscate the facts in mormonism.. That is wrong and should be acted on if posible.. I am also a real bad lier, so it is more easy to say what is true, than to try to lie... And i guess you also have your reason, to get out of LDS, as some does... It it never a easy thing to do in the first place.. And often you loose so mutch of your friends, your familie and so on, peopole you belived to be your best friend can turn on you, and dosen't want to talk to you, or your families.. That is wrong, and bad.. I have a few friends, former member of the LDS, who I wisit often, they even call me "the favorite mormon" as they often joke about MY belif.. I take it with humor, for the most part it works to defuse it long before it explode into something bad... And im pretty sure about MY belif too, and the life if to short, to worry about things you can't do something with... The only thing that make me something different, is maybe that I do not drink coffe (who I miss to this day) and alkohol (who I cant care less about)..

But the idea that EVERY member of the LDS shurch are walking around in "Holly underwear" 365 days a year is just stupid, becouse it seldom happend.. Some take the word little to literaly thats for sure.. But Im pretty sure that many are using regular underwear instead... I would say this is a very "culturell thing" and depend of where you live.. If you live in Provo Utah, and are grown up as a member of LDS, you might take that more to heart than many others, who are coming into the church as a grown man, as myself.. I find the "holly underwear" to be something I accept, in a Temple.. But who I do not are using outside of the Temple walls... That its the big difference maybe...

Diclotican

[FreeState]

80. So you lie to your Bishop and Stake President then?

"Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?"

Thats on of the questions your asked when you get your recommend.

[Diclotican]

81. FreeState

FreeState

When I am asked that, I say is at is it, I dont bear "holly underwear" night and day, becouse I dosen't belive it to be right to use "Holly underwear" when working in ordinary life...I am somewhat famous for beeing Blunt with my Bishop, and the stake president, when asked about this things... Have never been afraid of been blunt with either the Bishop, or the Stake President, I know the Bishop good, as he have been my home teatcher for many years, and I also know the Stake President somewhat. And they seen to respect the fact that I am blunt and not afraid of saying what I mean is right.. They know that Im a "good mormon" even tho we can disgress of someting... Or maybe we live in a country, where we respect the wiew of others, in a far different way than many does in US?.. And Im also pretty sure that the whole underwear thing, are not meant litary to be holly underwear, but rather that we as priest in our Church,should act acording to what is expected of us, to be honest, and also to keep our sexual parts, where they belong, and not playing around with it any places.. That IS an issue in the Church, becouse some are not excactly known to be that patient when it came to sex as others...

And My Bishop, and Stake President have not excactly been angry, when I told that... And as I have been writen before, I use it in Temple, but not in ordinary life, becouse I don't belive it to be right... On the other side I would say, the whole thing is way out of propotions, as holly underwear or not, are not the most IMPORTANT thing an member of LDS have to live with... And I guess some really want to make a issue about something that are not a issue... If you really want to make a issue about things, we can allways make a chat about some Fudenmental Later Days saints use of polygami, and missuse of youngsters, something that I despise in full, and if I had the posibility to do something with Warren and the FDLS I would have been doing that... But it looks like the US form of "religius freedom" are more or less given Warren, and the actions of FDLS a free pass when it came to treating their women, and their dauthers...Not to say, how their treat boys as young as 14-15 who are in "surplus" or their own, when they got on the bad hand of Warren and Co. It is so wrong in so many levels... And I have not the right words in English, to really communicate what I'm thinking about it... And the google translation equipment is rather bad to translate into english, what I can write down in my native language to express what I do feel about it...

Diclotican

[LAGC]

82. May I ask you this?

Why do you still want to associate with a church that has so much contempt for gay people? Why give them your hard-earned money? Why not find a nice liberal church that respects all people and leave Mormonism behind? What is it about Mormonism that appeals to you? Do you really believe that Joseph Smith found some "golden plates" that only he supposedly could see with his own eyes, with no way for anyone else to verify his story, we just have to take it on faith that he was telling the truth? Magic underwear aside, don't you find any of Mormonism's other beliefs to be a bit odd? The polygamy, the banning of black people from the priesthood, the rituals, the rites?

I don't mean this as disrespectful in any way, I'm just truly baffled over what it is about that religion that makes you want to stay.

[Diclotican]

87. LAGC

LAGC

You might ask, if I have a good aswer for what is making me be a part of the shurch, thats a different story.. I find something there, who I can't explain so very good, not even in my native language.. Its a kind of peace of mind... A peace of mind I dosen't had before

I know about the contemt that the church is showing to many gay peopole, and it sadenes me greatly. I have a few friends, who are really GAY in the real meaning of the word, but who respect my belife, becouse they also know that I respect them. And we have allways had an open comunication about this - as real friends do... They know Im part of a rather conservative church, who have been known to show a lot of disrespect for gay peopole.. But they also know me to be rather accepting about what THEY do, as long as they dosen't try to hit on me.. If they just accept that, Im don't care less if they want to be with a man, or a woman on their private life.. What they do, in their bed is just not my consern, and I dosen't have interest in knowing it either. And as I also have allways stated, both with all my friends, outside and inside the shurch, its just dam wrong to jugde peopole becouse of their orientation, its more important to jugde them, by their actions, as human beeing.. I might go little outside the box, not many mormons accept peopole that way I do, but in my life I have experienced a lot that if you just try to hold the hand out, to be decent, honest with everyone, you can discover many new things, and many new experiences that you might not have been given, if you had been a biggot... Even tho I have been accused here on DU, to be a biggot becouse of my stand in some areas... And I know a few persons, that is good, decent pepole, but who the first impression was something like this lines "what the hell is this for a creature"... Wel the creatures was indeed decent, hardworking peopole who I still reqonize as sorts of friends.. But I have also discovered the opposite, with strait pepole, who was looking as they was decent people.. They was anything than decent in their life..

Off course many rites, and other church things is rather odd from the outside - as mutch is when you dosent se it from the inside is. And as I have stated in this tread, I find the idea to deny men (as human) the right to bear the priesthood, becouse of their collour to be verry wrong.. If I had been grown up before 1978 I might had accepted it more but I was not more than 2 year in 1978, so I might not know to mutch about that at all.. In any way I was not baptised before I was 25, and my father, who was a baptist himself was really worried about me for a time... But he calmed down, after I explained the fine print a little for him. And anyway we never really talked to mutch about this when he was alive, it was something of a oral contract between us, no church policy when we wisited eatch other. Mostly it was I who wisited him, as he was sick the last couple of years...

I have never accepted the Polygamy idea, who for the record was one of the real reason for the great chism between LDS and outbreak groups, as FDLS who was fouded by them who was not accepting that Polygamy was something of the past.. It was a rift who to this day have not really been fixed, as it destroyed whole families and comunities.... I for one want ONE whife not many, one woman is enough to keep an tab on two of more, would just be hell;) And you also have to give them a decent life all of them, and I am not that rich to hold a few woman with all the need they might have in a marriage... Its far more easy to have One whife who I can suport and help, and who can suport and help me.. And I have never been to found of to many children either, two is enought as far as I want it.... (norm in Norway is 1.8 kid)

I would not try to push my belife on others, I belive the golden plates, was discoved by Joseph Smith, and that the book of mormons, is true. I accept it, but of course I have many times wondered why it was discovered and why no one else was able to verity the story.. Either he told the truth, and the book of Mormons is true - or else Joseph Smith was some of a con artist, who have yet to be discovered as sutch.. Either way, the book is there, to all to read and to think about... And also to deside on their own, to either accept, or to decline..

You are far more gentle in your questening than many other I have been writen to here on DU, when LDS have been the case, so you are in no way disrespectful as far as I conser about it.. As I wrote first, I found peace of mind, something that is not easy this days..

Diclotican

[FreeState]

94. Things are different in Norway

In the US it's highly unlikely you would be given a recommend.

When I lived in Oslo (Asker) the ward met in the old US Embassy. I remember many members that were allowed to do things us Americans just scratched our heads over.

I still love Oslo. It's a beautiful place.

[Radical Activist]

96. It's not even the same religion outside the mountain west.

Mormon culture is very different in places where they're a small minority.

[Diclotican]

100. Radical Activist

Radical Activist


Proberly right about that... Or maybe it takes some flavor in the culture where the church are living?.. Norwigian are by large, relavtively moderate in their wiew of the world... And also rather liberale in their wiew of the world..

Diclotican

[Diclotican]

98. FreeState

FreeState

I belive that to be the case to, that many things is different in Norway, from US, and specailly from Utah... Many things,that members is allowed to to here, would proberly end up in some disiplinary actions in US.. Mybe it is becouse most norwigians have a rather liberal wiew of things.. A rather smal country, where most peopole have some education, At least some college level education, and many also have university education...

Yes, Oslo is a beautiful place (im living right outside Oslo, in Asker, 25 min out with train from Oslo S) even tho it also have the dark places of a big city.. And for the next couple of years, the waterfront of Oslo wil be a gigantic building place, as the highway true the City would be burred below the land, and a lot of new buildings wil rise.. Even Oslo S, The central train station, would be rebuild to the extreme... So you have been in Asker to;). My uncle who have familiy history as a pastime (not member of the church by the way) have discovered that our family, from my grandmothers side (Yggeseth) have roots back to the 1300s.. So I have deeep roots in Asker;).. That is something not many can claim today in Asker (you would posible not even know "down-town Asker" today, as it have been rebuilded more or less the last 5-6 year.. A new railroad station, a lot of new buildings, a new culture house, with a brand new Cinema, and so om... Its a nice place now, but was somewhat of a hellhole for a couple of years, when all the new building was build.. You can se the "downtown" Asker from google by the way;)

If you ever deside to wisit Oslo again, please free to give me a PM, I might show you some places I like;). And I promise you I would NOT even try to push my belife on you.. I am not that good at beeing a missionary anyway, im to uncomfortable talking to strangers out of the blue... But I know a few spots you might was not able to wisit first time around in Oslo.

Diclotican

[Sheepshank]

83. mormon underwear next to the skin, under regular underwear

is important to wear to every day...how else is it gonna protect aginst the bullet holes and apply to all those other miracle stories?

As a former....I can clearly state, one is counselled to wear them all the time, every where every time, for protection emotional, spiritual and physical. Temple recommend interviews often ask if you wear them regularly.

[Diclotican]

88. Sheepshank

Sheepshank

Wel, in my interwies before a temple recommend, when this is coming up, Im are allways rather blunt with them... First time I had to say I was some set back, becouse what is this, with a recommend to the business of a temple do to with?.. Zip, Nada.... And as I told one of them, that I found this questning some intrusive into my personal life, who is between me, and the Lord, and that he might ask me other questning, who was more relevant to a temple recommend than if I use regular underwear, or a more holly underwear.. They might counsell to wear them at all time, but its is up to us to use common sense I might say too..

And if you need holly underwear to keep your "junior" to not get into actions beside with your wife, then you might not be that a good mormon in the first place.. If you had "some" respect for your wife, and your familiy, your "junior" would know where to be, and to not drift into others... That is really EASY if you care for your familiy and your wife...

And, it is also important your OWN moral standing in the sex thing (im little uncortabel now) but I would say that its important to be faitfull to your wife (not plural form) and to the marriage you have togheter, if you dosent have a Moral standing in a marriage, the marriage can fall on ruins.. Its up to eatch one of us, to do the right thing, even tho humans tend to be somewhat weak when it came to sex with the opposite....

Diclotican

[Sheepshank]

104. you sound like a coffee drinker too

and with your comments there is no way you are a run of the mill every day mormon....in fact I don't actually believe everything you say. Obviously no evidence on that, but after living that hell that was my mormon experience, it's a little hard to believe all you have to do is break off on your own and assume the entire doctrines taught regarding the wearing of garments, for ALL members is going to bow down to your personal needs and desires...no matter how cleverly and succintly you state it to them or us. Pray Pay Obey...not much has changed.

[tavalon]

54. Considering you saw how he replaced his magic undies,

I'm inclined to suspect he did a bit of sinning with you. I wonder how the Mormons feel about premarital sex?

[Diclotican]

74. tavalon

tavalon

I belive the church are not excactly happy about premartial sex... But Im also sure that many of the young members of the shurch, are not allways playing by the rules.. After all, they are YOUNG, and when peopole are young they are not allways doing what their parents want them to do.... Even when the parents do have some experience on the subject...

Diclotican

[Radical Activist]

85. Thanks for reminding people that prejudiced stereotyping is wrong

whether its based on sexual orientation or on religion. People who throw ugly insults at Mormons should remember that it's a church of unique individuals with their own opinions. Not all of them agree with their church policies on some issues and some of them may change their religion in the future.

Everyone has to decide whether they're fighting against bigotry or whether they're only fighting against bigotry that's directed at their own group.

[AnArmyVeteran]

14. The Mormons used to exclude blacks from their 'priesthood'

Up till 1978, blacks were denied becoming priests in their church. Any male over 18 became a 'priest' in their church, unless they were black. The Mormon church was about to be sued and had received a warning from the federal government because they were practicing discrimination and then one night the president of the church (that's the title of their leader) had a revelation where 'god' spoke to him directly and said "Hey, I didn't say blacks couldn't become members of the priesthood, you've got it all wrong". Okay, I paraphrased the hell out of that, but the intent is identical. So after the visit from 'god' the Mormon president issued a decree saying it was now okay for blacks to become members of the priesthood.

Oh yeah, one more thing. I know it was just a huge coincidence, but the Mormon church had received noticed from the federal government that they would lose their tax exempt status unless blacks were allowed into the priesthood. It must be a coincidence because I can't see any 'god' worrying about whether the Mormon church paid taxes or not. But the leaders of the Mormon church sure worried a lot. In fact, they made up that whole 'god visited their president' story just to dupe their flock.

I've known a lot of Mormons and they have a lot of good values, but they look at their women as breeding machines and try to get as many babies as they can out of a woman. Mormons do several good things though. They believe in having a six month supply of everything in case something happens. But they are very invasive. They sit with you to look over your finances to make sure they get their full cut.

The Mormon church I believe is the wealthiest church per capita than any other church. And with that money they wield a lot of power like they have with political issues like same sex marriage. I believe any church that involves itself in political causes should have their tax exempt status stripped away. I bet almost every fundamentalist church violates crossing the barrier between church and state. In my opinion they can talk all they want about their own religion, but when they start telling their flocks to vote and how to vote then they should have their tax exempt status revoked and let the government raid their treasuries.

[seattleblue]

17. Where is your link to your assertion the federal government

had "given them notice they would lose their tax exempt status unless blacks were allowed into the priesthood". I call B.S. on that.

[AnArmyVeteran]

19. It's not BS. I not only remember the story, I dated a Mormon at the time.

I remember the story very well. Blacks were denied entrance to the priesthood. Then the federal government threatened to take away their tax exempt status. Then out of nowhere, 'god' spoke to the president of the church and told him it was okay to have blacks in the priesthood after all. The 'revelation' occurred soon after the church was warned about having their tax exempt status removed.

Google 'revelation', 'tax exempt', 'mormon', 'blacks' and other key words and you will get thousands of hits. Why do you consider my true story BS when you haven't even googled the story to check it out for yourself?

Of course, the Mormon propaganda machine denies their church was ever even racist, which is a lie. They also refuse to admit their 'revelation' was prompted by a threat from the government that they would lose their tax exempt status. Since it is obvious the LDS practiced racism for over a 150 years at that point they are completely dishonest to claim they never engaged in racism or discrimination. Just the act of treating adult black males as something less than whites is racism and they were actively discriminated against by the Mormon church. You can also google 'blacks', 'mormon', 'persecution', 'racism', 'discrimination' and other key words and get thousands of hits describing the long standing institutional racism against blacks. Before 1978, even Barack Obama couldn't become a member of the Mormon priesthood if he was a Mormon at the time.

Here's just one link that describes what happened:
http://www.mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm#eventsleadingto1978

Events leading up to the revelation in 1978.

The Church has maintained that the 1978 revelation giving blacks the priesthood was not due to any form of public pressure but was simply God's will that blacks should not be given the priesthood until 1978.
 
Consider the following events that directly proceeded the 1978 revelation:
1. Under President Jimmy Carter, Brigham Young University and possibly the LDS Church itself was in danger of losing their tax exempt status if they continued to discriminate against blacks.
2. Colleges were boycotting athletic games against BYU.  The mood in the country at the time was decidedly against the Mormons.
3. The Boy Scouts of America was putting a lot of pressure on the Church since only priesthood holders could be boy scout troop leaders in LDS scout troops this was denying black scouts the same opportunities that white scouts had. “A 12-year-old boy scout has been denied a senior patrol leadership in his troop because he is black, Don L. Cope, black ombudsman for the state, said Wednesday....  The ombudsman said Mormon ‘troop policy is that in order to become a patrol leader, he must be a deacon’s quorum president in the LDS church.  Since the boy cannot hold the priesthood, he cannot become a patrol leader.”    Salt Lake Tribune, July 18, 1974
4. Members and missionaries the world over were embarrassed and ashamed at what the church taught in Sunday School about blacks.  The members were not racist and did not like believing in and teaching racist doctrine.
5. The 1978 "revelation" was just prior to the temple opening in Sao Paulo Brazil. They had built an area office, distribution center and temple. The population has intermarried to an extent that it could not be determined if the people have any black lineage. The Church had publicly stated that people could not enter the temple if they "had even a drop of negro blood."   Who was going to use the temple in Brazil?  This was creating a public image nightmare in Brazil.
6. The Church was becoming a global church.  How could they possibly succeed in Africa and countries with large black populations?

[LAGC]

23. It makes you wonder if they will eventually have another "revelation" about gays.

Suddenly saying that they can be priests and what not.

That ever-changing moral zeitgeist sure is a son of a gun...

[AnArmyVeteran]

24. They have very convenient 'revelations' weren't they?

In the 1978 revelation, it wasn't based on god talking to them, it was their accountants talking to them. Divine my ass! The Mormon church is like a finely tuned business and they are making a fortune.

I've read all about them. They believe Jesus visited their predecessors here in the Americas. In their Book of Mormon they talk about metal alloys they had in the Americas and even some crops that didn't exist yet. And in all of history there have been no archaeological proof they ever existed in the Americas. Their belief rebounded with Joseph Smith and he supposedly have a visit from god. He was given solid gold tablets but after he read them he hid them and there is no other proof of their existence. When I read any religious documents that talk about gold and precious gems I believe that's a dead giveaway that they are fake. What 'real' god would be so fascinated with a metal and put so more value on gold than any other metal. They are all parts of 'his' creation so they would all have equal value. But to appeal to the masses the writers of the religious texts have to include bright and shiny things to entice people into their flocks.

It's so superficial when they talk about things like the 'golden tablets'. A real god would have just written his words on regular rocks if belief was truly based on faith rather than possessions or 'precious metals'. Oh yeah, the 'god' Joseph Smith witnessed also gave Smith a special power to read the words on the tablets that were in a strange and unknown language. That's another sign something written by a religious character is bogus. For what purpose is fable and superstition used by an all knowing god? If god wanted Joseph Smith to have a special connection why not just talk with him in his own language?

The more I read about religions of any brand, I become more and more convinced that they are all fraudulent and primitive and based on cult-like beliefs that some people need to use as a crutch through life. And why would any all knowing god create religions at a time when men were so backwards, before video and audio recording equipment and before the internet? Instead he chose to confide in just a handful of men (and men only) to be a conduit for his message. If I was around 2,000 years ago I could have dreamed up a religion where I worshipped oak trees and today there would be churches all around the world filled with flocks of Oakians.

I really don't understand how religions get away with their obvious hoaxes.

[mitchum]

78. Grifter Joe even had a revelation about the prohibition of tobacco only...

because his wife was tired of cleaning up tobacco juice from the meeting house floor.
Absolutely true.

[AnArmyVeteran]

107. Lots of Joe Smiths, David Koreshes, Jim Jones in history.

As long as there are gullible, non-thinking people there will always be charismatic opportunists to exploit them. A lot of mankind hasn't evolved very much. Their thoughts and beliefs are still mired in primitive times.

[Critters2]

26. I'm absolutely sure this will happen in time.

God has a way of letting the Mormons off the hook at just the right moment.

[NMMNG]

33. They will

As soon as it's no longer socially and financially feasible for them to keep up this crusade against us. LD$inc is nothing if not pragmatic about their finances and their image.

[defendandprotect]

60. ... or women since they find them spiritually "inferior" to save their own souls. .. their husbands

have to do it for them!!!

[seattleblue]

27. You made the statement about the federal government

"warning" the Mormons and they would "lose their tax-exempt status". Give me a government link or a credible news link. You gave me a link to some nutball conspiracy website which is ranting against all things Mormon. I have no use for Mormons but your assertion smells like total BS to me.

[Canuckistanian]

34. Have you ever heard of Google?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_race.htm

A number of official changes have taken place to the organization during the modern era. One significant change was the ordination of black men to the priesthood in 1978, which reversed a policy originally instituted by Brigham Young in 1852.<55> There are also periodic changes in the structure and organization of the church, mainly to accommodate the organization's growth and increasing international presence. For example, since the early 1900s, the church has instituted a Priesthood Correlation Program to centralize church operations and bring them under a hierarchy of priesthood leaders. During the Great Depression, the church also began operating a church welfare system, and it has conducted numerous humanitarian efforts in cooperation with other religious organizations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

Mitt wept when church ended discrimination

Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney said on NBC’s “Meet the Press” today that he wept with relief when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Mormon church, announced a 1978 revelation that the priesthood would no longer be denied to persons of African descent.

Romney’s eyes appeared to fill with tears as he discussed the emotional subject during a high-stakes appearance that he handled with no major blunders.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1207/7415.html

You should try it sometime.

[seattleblue]

38. You should try actually reading posts sometime.

I asked for a link to a credible news source or a government source backing up the claim that the IRS was going to remove tax exempt status. You supplied none. I don't need links to Mitts crying which is the only thing you can supply.

[Canuckistanian]

76. Read this. In it's entirety.

http://jhuston.com/Documents/1978.htm

[AnArmyVeteran]

61. I specifically remember how the Mormon church was afraid of losing their TES

I can still remember the stories surrounding the controversy relating to how the Mormon church was actively discriminating against blacks. Because they were disriminating it was against federal law. And the consequences for violating that law by a chuch was to lose its tax exempt status. The leaders of the Mormon church KNEW they were in violation of federal laws by discriminating against blacks. And it was only when they were fearful of losing a lot of money did the 'president' of their church have his 'revelation' from 'god''. If you can't see the correlation between those two events I don't know how to explain with any greater detail. I don't have a link generated from any site from back then because the Internet as we know it didn't exist. I'm sure if you talked with members of the Department of Justice or any other governmental organization that would oversee discrimination complaints you could eventually find it.

I frankly don't understand how you could be so skeptacle if you weren't a Mormon or were in some way trying to refuse to admit that the Mormon church was deliberately discriminating against blacks and then they had a VERY convenient 'revelation'' from 'god' telling him that 'hey buddy, I didn't say you couldn't have blacks in the priesthood'. I don't understand why you are not able to see the obvious tie between the facts I stayed very clearly.

As far as the link, it was one of thousands I could have chosen. Do you dispute that the Mormons were discrimating? Or dispute the ridiculous convenience of the so-called revelation? The only reason the Mormon president had his 'revelation' was because he was afraid his church would lose its tax exempt status. Do you actually believe 'god' talked with that guy to say it was okay to have blacks in the priesthood just as they were about to lose their tax exempt status? I didn't realize 'god' had much interest in accounting or money. Obviously, the Mormon 'god' does...

I feel that Mormon president was being dishonest when he made that claim just to dupe his church's flock and to save money. It's like all of the dishonest, fabricated 'revelations' Popes have had through the years in order to bend to the forces of public opinion or to conform to man's laws. Dont you think its curious how many of those 'revelations' would have affected their church's bottom lines?

[NMMNG]

32. Ask and ye shall receive

Mormon Lesson of the Day: How the Threat of Losing Tax-Exempt Status Resulted in a Sudden, New “Revelation” About African-Americans

[seattleblue]

35. Absolutely nothing there.

Did you even read your link? The author makes this statement "and the IRS started to make noises about revoking the church's holy tax-free status, a new revelation came to the Book of Mormon." There is absolutely no link and no source given for the statement. You do know, don't you, that people make things up on the internet?

[NMMNG]

36. There are links there

If you care to pay attention and follow them you'll see support for everything written in the post. My wife never makes unsubstantiated claims. Sorry if your magick knickers are in a twist over facts but you're just going to have to deal.

[seattleblue]

39. No links at all to what I asked for.

But thanks for playing.

[NMMNG]

41. There are links galore

It's not my fault you can't find them, or you choose to ignore them. Ta.

[arbusto_baboso]

47. Wow! A mormon apologist on DU!

Whatsa matter? Daniel Peterson hasn't assigned you to harass posters over at the Recovery from Mormonism bulletin board?

[seattleblue]

50. Wow! Someone who creates straw men when they have no facts on DU!

Whoever would have thought we would see that!

[arbusto_baboso]

51. You wouldn't believe facts about the mormon church if they jumped up and spit in your eye.

But good night and thanks for playing!

[Sapphocrat]

55. Here, go learn something.

Dum-dum-dum-dum-dum...

[d_b]

57. lols

[NMMNG]

63. Forget it dahling

We know all about milk before meat, "Celestial Marriage", Lying for the Lord, Blood Atonement, your Orwellian manipulation of truth and much more than you guys ever wanted out in the general public. Maybe if y'all had stuck to funeral potatoes and green jello instead of meddling in the lives of others we'd all still be innocently buying your propaganda. Prop8 made us dig under the surface and we are now much more aware. You can't fool us any more.

[seattleblue]

66. LOL. I am as far from a Mormon as you can be.

I just wanted a factual source (credible) for the assertion the federal government threatened a church with losing tax exempt status unless they changed a religious belief. As an attorney who handles more than my share of first amendment cases I smelled BS. You were unable to come up with anything. Just as I thought.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arbusto_baboso]

69. And there it is.... CONFIRMATION that you are mormon.

Now, go away. "Lying for the Lord" is still lying and is a sin.

[provis99]

71. the tax-exempt threat on the Mormons is an urban myth.

Likely people are conflating the Mormon revelation of 1978 with the Federal government's threat to remove Bob Jones Universiy's tax-exempt status for discrimination. A religion can do whatever it wants, such as the racist Christian Identity group, but it can't run a university without obeying the federal government's civil rights rulings.

Possibly the reason for confusing the 78 Revelation with the Bob Jones University case is that the government's Solicitor General at the time was a Mormon who excused himself from the Bob Jones case.

[seattleblue]

72. Thank you for bringing in facts to this thread.

[Sheepshank]

84. Dan?...Donut Dan

is still trying the explain away Aussoe Simon's Asian blood in American Indians findings...and denying the Mormons ever said they were purely of Jewish decent? That Dan Peterson? Gawd, I though he'd have had a coronary by now.

[mitchum]

79. Maybe you need some of those magic seeing rocks?

[Diclotican]

31. AnArmyVeteran

AnArmyVeteran

I know, and I would say, it was wrong then, and is wrong now.. I would never defend that - but then I was born first in 1976, so I can maybe not be faulted for what others did before me... And got into the church first in grown up age.. But I would say, its wrong to say that a person of collor, should not be allowed to be part of the priesthood, becouse he is black.. I know a few, really decent persons, who is far better priest than I am, who is black or latino.... And who is good fathers, and good husbands, and decent persons in all... Some I would say, if I just was half their persons I would be glad...

I belive, strongly, and have belived for a long time, as Prop 8 have been more and more to my knowlegde.. that LDS should NEVER have tried to get into politic, not about this, not about ANYTHING political.. It was a bad move from the Church, and Im pretty sure, that could also been used to miskredit the church by many, who maybe have no clue about the church in general...

I strongly belive that LDS church should keep to what they do best, be an shurch and do what a church do, not to try to impose political power to anyone.. It was wrong before the Prop 8, and is wrong now to try to impose thing political...

Now, as it looks like Prop 8 is overturned in California, I hope the church would learn a couple of things. Most important DO NOT GO INTO POLITIC with a base in church.. That is stupid, and bad... Period...

Diclotican

[leftyladyfrommo]

45. Blacks couldn't join the priesthood when I lived in Salt Lake

A black skin was considered to be the curse of Cain. Goes back to a huge battle between good and evil in the Book of Mormon. Those who sat on the fence and didn't fight on the side of good were marked with a black skin - the curse of Cain.

Wasn't too long after that the church had to change its stance on that issue. Another timely revelation from God on the Mormon hotline to heaven.

[Sebastian Doyle]

53. The old LDS teaching on the origin of black people was very bizarre and racist.

It goes back to before the creation of Earth. Elohim, Our Heavenly Father, was in the planning stages of project Earth and so He called his council of 12 together to discuss how the project should proceed. Among the 12 were Elohim's two eldest sons, Jehova (who would later become Jesus Christ on Earth) and Lucifer.

Lucifer suggested that the human race be forced to worship Elohim. Jehova counter-offered with giving man the freewill to choose for himself whether or not to accept Elohim's plan. Elohim liked Jehova's ideas better, as did most of the council, who voted for it.

Lucifer then got pissed off, declared a mutiny on his own Father, and got 1/3 of the angels to side with him. Another 1/3 of the angels remained loyal to Elohim & Jehova. The remaining third of the spirits refused to take sides in the battle (I guess you could call them the "centrists" of the celestial kingdom of Kolob)

After Lucifer and his fellow rebels were cast down into Hell, Elohim also decided to throw the lazy "centrist" angels out of Heaven, and down to earth. And in this process, He turned their skin black to remind everyone that these people were "too lazy to fight Satan".

Crazy, huh?

[AnArmyVeteran]

75. Good grief, what a ridiculous piece of fable.

I've read a lot of the Book of Mormon and thought it was a good piece of creative writing, with nothing to sustantiate a word in it. Thanks for that story. The more I learn the more I realize how crazy all religions are. I always wondered why any all-knowing 'god' would have let the most primitive of men tell his story long ago, instead of waiting until man evolved and technology advanced to at least the invention of the printing press. Better still, the inventions of audio and video recording. If simplicity is genius, then the 'god' portrayed in every religion is a blooming idiot.

[SwampG8r]

92. would those things been

invented if the culture that created them was not unified somehow?in this case by common belief?
religion as a cultural cornerstone is tough to dispute in any culture or even between cultures
and the printing press was almost exclusively used for religion when first invented
please understand i am not trying to snark your reply
it just made me think
i dont think we would have gotten as far as we have without a common belief frame uniting people from distant lands and cultures to build on each others work

[AnArmyVeteran]

105. I agree with everything you said.

I agree and understand the benefits created by religion, but what if mankind had invented another form of social networking not based in religion. Before exploration by humans all over the world there were cultures where no religion existed and the people were very peaceful and charitable to each other. They didn't need to be told from a book how to treat their fellow man. I believe its inherent in every human being to want to belong to a community and to be good to one another. Yes, there are a lot of exceptions to this norm, but as a rule people will live in peace with each other for the common good.

If religion hadn't been created and another non-religious phenomenon had entered the human consciousness the bonds between people might even be stronger. At least we wouldn't have all the divisions which currently exist between religions. Even within the Christian faith there are over 20,000 different denominations, with each having a different interpretation of the Bible and what it means. The 20,000 figure was from another DUer who said that figure was a worldwide one. In many Christian churches they believe their interpretation of the Bible is the only true one and all other people will go to hell. That kind of attitude is aloof and arrogant, two traits certainly not taught by Jesus.

I remember reading in amusement how the annual Southern Baptist conventions became notorious for the fights they had with each other. Not even members of the same church could agree on the contents of the Bible. You would think that an all-knowing god could have directed men to write a book that was universally accepted and understood. I stand by my statement that if simplicity is genius, then god as portrayed in religious documents must be a blooming idiot. Why would an all-knowing god have a book written so sloppily and full of holes & inconsistencies if it was going to lead to so much division and even hatred?

Although religion has brought people together it has also divided people. I'm not sure if its overall good hasn't been far eclipsed by all of the bad consequences of religion.

[foxfeet]

15. K&R

[BlueIdaho]

16. I hope they spend all of their considerable wealth

Trying to defend Prop 8.

[flyarm]

18. Most of California's Black Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban ...

Most of California's Black Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban ...
Nov 7, 2008 ... Most of California's Black Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban ... Seven in 10 African Americans who went to the polls voted yes on Proposition 8 ...

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/06/A... - Similar

70% of African Americans backed Prop. 8, exit poll finds | ...
Nov 5, 2008 ... The Associated Press exit polls show that African Americans and Latinos ... helped to put a gay marriage ban on California's constitution, ...

latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/70-of-african-... - Similar


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/us/politics/21gay.html

September 21, 2008
Political Memo
Same-Sex Marriage Ban Is Tied to Obama Factor
By JESSE McKINLEY
SAN FRANCISCO — Could Senator Barack Obama’s popularity among black voters hurt gay couples in California who want to marry?

That is the concern of opponents of Proposition 8, a measure on the November ballot that would amend the state constitution to ban same-sex marriage, which was legalized in May by the State Supreme Court.

Mr. Obama, the Democratic presidential nominee, is against the measure. But opponents of the proposed ban worry that many black voters, enthused by Mr. Obama’s candidacy but traditionally conservative on issues involving homosexuality, could pour into voting stations in record numbers to punch the Obama ticket — and then cast a vote for Proposition 8.

snip:

The Obama/Proposition 8 situation appeals to those opposed to same-sex marriage, who are banking on a high turnout by blacks and conservative Latinos. “There’s no question African-American and Latino voters are among our strongest supporters,” said Frank Schubert, the co-campaign manager for Yes on 8, the leading group behind the measure. “And to the extent that they are motivated to get to the polls, whether by this issue or by Barack Obama, it helps us.”

snip:

“This is black people talking to black people,” said Ron Buckmire, the board president of the Barbara Jordan/Bayard Rustin Coalition, a gay rights group in Los Angeles. “We’re saying, ‘Gay people are black and black people are gay. And if you are voting conservative on an antigay ballot measure, you are hurting the black community.’ ”

Black voters account for 6 percent of likely voters in most statewide elections, according to the Public Policy Institute of California, while Hispanic voters make up about 15 percent. But taken together, those two groups could easily decide the election, people on both sides of the issue said.

“If the white Christian evangelic movement believes they can do it alone, I’ve got news for you,” said the Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, the president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference in Sacramento, which supports the measure. “They don’t have the sheer numbers to do it without the minority effort.”



do a little google..

[Luminous Animal]

46. "Black support for Prop. 8 called exaggeration"

“A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.” - Winston Churchill

http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-01-07/bay-area/17199504_1_same-sex-marriage-ban-black-voters-lesbian-task-force

Exit polls found that 70 percent of black voters backed Prop. 8 on Nov. 4, even as they overwhelmingly supported Democratic Sen. Barack Obama, who opposed the same-sex marriage ban.

But an analysis of precinct-level voting data on Prop. 8 from Alameda, Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego and San Francisco counties, which are home to nearly two-thirds of California's black voters, suggested that African American support for Prop. 8 was more likely about 58 percent.

[WillyT]

20. Not Sure I Appreciate The Visual, But... ROFLMAO !!! - K & R !!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

:evilgrin:

:hi:

[SPedigrees]

21. Rec'd for the subject line alone! And I hope they are

disgruntled now that the $$ they spent on their vile hate-filled campaign has come to naught. Let's hope the decision survives the appeal process.

[SPedigrees]

22. delete - duplicate post

[NMMNG]

29. Too effing bad

They have the right to choose whatever religious lifestyle they want. They don't have the right, however, to force their ways on everyone else. They need to mind their own business and stop meddling in other people's families.

[RainDog]

43. exactly

Americans have freedom of and from religion.

Mormonism is one of the more moronic belief systems out there, but if anyone chooses to stuff his or her head with such nonsense, it is that person's right.

however, how incredible that people with outrageous and unsupportable religious beliefs - fundamentalist literalist Christians as well, think that they have any right to impose those beliefs on others - especially when those beliefs have been disproven over and over again.

YET those people have the right to delude themselves however they see fit. I support their right to delusion. But it ends with them. Keep it out of our nation's schools, government and laws.

[closeupready]

30. If I could K&R this 1000 times, I would.

K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R

[fishwax]

37. k/r

:kick:

[old mark]

48. Please - you mean their "garments"! nt

[arbusto_baboso]

49. Yes, and that laughable Book of Mormon is "scripture", too.

I was mormon once, and "magic undies" pretty much captures the concept.

[old mark]

56. We got sued once by mormon landlords, before a mormon magistrate here in PA.

We got very religiously fucked by all concerned, including their mormon lawyer who lost our papers for months and would not return any phone mesages...


Sorry, I have no love for the "saints"...


mark

[arbusto_baboso]

58. Nor should you.

They're all about protecting their own and fucking over "gentiles".

[laughingliberal]

52. K & R nt

[defendandprotect]

59. Mormon + RCC also financed the campaign against the ERA . . .

they won that one!!

And they financed it with tax-exempt dollars!!!

And largely in secret --

[CubicleGuy]

62. Will there be equal opportunity scorn...

... heaped on the Orthodox Jews today, for what they wear and consider sacred, too?

[LAGC]

64. I didn't know Orthodox Jews came out in support of Prop 8.

In fact, wasn't there just a thread in R/T about how 150 Orthodox Jews came out in support of gay rights?

:shrug:

It's not like Orthodox Jews send missionaries out waking people up in the early morning hours with their proselytizing efforts like the Mormons are very adamant about doing.

Kind of easier to give respect, when respect is given back, don't ya think?

[BeeBee]

65. Maybe there will be if they pour millions of dollars to take away

my rights like the Mormons did.

[NMMNG]

70. They reap as they sow

As I stated upthread, if Mormons had stuck to funeral potatoes and green jello we'd have paid them no mind. Instead they chose to engage in a full-frontal assault on people who did nothing to them. Accordingly we have no reason to respect any of their "beliefs", or their "sacred" knickers.

[Radical Activist]

86. A Mormon friend of mind posted of facebook that she agreed with the court decision.

"Mormons" didn't decide to do something. Top church leaders did. Many Mormons agreed, some did not, and others in different parts of the world didn't know what the church was doing in California until after it was done. My guess is that 99% of Mormons in the world didn't participate in anything related to prop 8.

Personally, I'm against prejudice directed at an entire group whether its based on sexual orientation or religion. There's a difference between criticizing the actions of the Mormon church and making broad insults at everyone who's Mormon.

[Diclotican]

89. Radical Activist

Radical Activist

I have no clue that the mormon church had stand behind Prop 8 before DU fired up a long tirade against the church and the prop 8 right before the wote.... And I stated then, and I state now, its wrong to go into politic as a church. And Prop 8 defently damaged the church far more than any "enemy" of the church could ever posible manage to do.... It was as shoot right in the foot for the churchs leaders...

And I bet the church wil pay for it many years down the road... I know a few who was furrious about the actions, by the leaders, both inside, and defently outside the church...

But, thankfully, this prop 8 is overturned, and maybe in a few weeks, months or years time, gay peopole can marrige who they want, as hetrosexully can do it now... It was a good day for Gays yesterday I guess, and a bad day for everyone who oppose the right for same sex marriage.. I have just to say, its time the US wake up to the 21 century too.. But it is still a uphill battle for gays in the US.. It took decades of hard fighting for gays in Europe - as in Norway, my native country, to get the same right as hetros to marriage, and even today after a few years with the right some is still protesting that right.

I could not care less.. If two persons of same sex, wanted to be "Man and wife" and shear the same responsibility and happiess as ordinary married peopole so why not.. Why should Gays be less missrable, or more happy than hetrosexuelly cuples?.. I just dosen't se the fuzz about it

Diclotican

[LAGC]

91. The problem is...

The Mormon Church requires each and every member to tithe 10% of their income. Thus, by even remaining members of the Church, they are in fact enabling it's decisions. I mean, I can kind of understand Catholics who just choose to remain Catholic, but don't voluntarily donate money to the church because they disagree with what the Vatican does with the money, with its proclamations against abortion and the such. But to my understanding, Mormons have no choice... to be members they HAVE to tithe. They are actually billed by the church each month! That's how fine-tuned of an organization it is!

So in this case, with the Mormon Church's blatant support of Prop. 8, I think its fair to bring out the broad-brush and blame each and every member who tithed to the Church, because they are enablers of hate. Each and every one of them.

[Radical Activist]

95. You make a fair point.

Individual Mormons need to accept their share of the responsibility for what their church did, even if they disagreed or weren't aware if it at the time. However, I would point out a few things.

I think you're overstating tithing a little bit unless things have changed significantly since I left that church. Yes, tithing is required to be a full-fledged temple going member of the church. But, there are also Mormons who attend church and don't tithe or who give less than 10%. No one is kicked out of Sunday services for not giving their full 10%. It's not like they make everyone do automatic deductions or mail them a bill.

And although Mormons funded the Prop 8 drive, I haven't seen anything showing that it primarily came from tithe money. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the articles I've seen report that individual Mormons made additional donations to a political fund that weren't part of their normal tithe.

I would also point out that general insults and attacks based on their religion will make Mormons cling to the church even more. It has a real history of being persecuted and the church uses that to its advantage. The fact that attacks against Mormons (usually from Southern Baptists) were so obviously hateful, ignorant and false probably kept me in that church several years longer than I otherwise would have left. The nastiness of anti-Mormon hate literature made it easier for me to dismiss the more legitimate criticisms of the church.

Mormons are taught that God treats all people with the same respect and love, and that we should do the same. There are some who see the contradiction between what they're taught and what the church did on prop 8.
It's harder for some Mormons to see how wrong it is because no one gives fiery sermons denouncing gays as evil like some other churches do. It's easy for people to let themselves think (wrongly) that they're only fighting for traditional marriage without realizing the hate and pain that's spread by the prop 8 drive.

It's very difficult for someone to leave a church once they've bought into the idea (or were raised on the idea) that it's the "one true church" and the only path to salvation. So, all I'm suggesting is that treating people respectfully as individuals, without prejudice, will occasionally lead to new allies down the road. And I'll be surprised if anyone actually reads all that.

[LAGC]

99. You have sound logic.

Maybe I've been a bit too harsh. I just think sometimes a strong kick in the pants is what it takes to wake people up from their delusions. Even if liberal Mormons didn't leave the church, I would be satisfied if they at least CHANGED the church.

Hopefully the more pragmatic church members can recognize the damage the Church leadership has afflicted upon the entire church body with its blatant involvement in Prop. 8 and move to reform it so that it doesn't happen again. I won't hold my breath though.

[Radical Activist]

102. Totally understandable.

You're right not to hold your breath. The Mormon church doesn't respond to reform efforts initiated by members. If anything changes it will be because top church leaders changed their mind for one reason or another. It has been drifting rightward and it's getting harder for liberals to stay in it.

[Sapphocrat]

101. $190,000 directly from LDS, Inc., in SLC

They owned up to it only after Fred Karger filed a complaint, and the Calif. Fair Political Practices Committee investigated the church. Previously, they swore they'd only spent about $2,000 to fly a couple of church leaders out to California... and to this day, the True Believers(tm) refuse to quit parroting that lie (among many other Lies for the Lord).

They finally 'fessed up to $190K in cash and in-kind contributions -- and were fined all of about $5K for failure to report.

Of course, that $190K does not take into account the even-softer soft money it appears the church itself poured into the H8 campaign. We will never know the extent of the church facilities used, the employees who worked round-the-clock on H8 (while taking "straight time"), etc., etc.

Also, do you realize the countless hours of "free" manpower contributed by Mormons who never donated a dime -- but who canvassed neighborhoods weekend after weekend? The "ground troops" -- the ones knocking on doors and distributing as many as one million "Yes On 8" signs (that was their goal; I don't know how many were placed) -- were composed of nearly all Mormons (90% is a conservative estimate from Mormons who watched from the sidelines).

And then there is the tithing, yes. Even if the church never made another "official" donation to an anti-gay campaign, where do you think it gets its money to spread its usual (non-campaign-time) anti-gay propaganda? To go a step further, how do you think the church funded its "Evergreen" "ex-gay" program (the one notorious for sticking electrodes on the penises of gay men as "aversion therapy")?

Oh, and as for Mormons in general: There are those who were never bigoted assholes in the first place -- I even know one or two, very casually. (Misguided, yes, because as long as they tithe, they are enabling a very powerful hate machine.)

My encounters with the rest -- those who threw themselves into buying their way to a better planet near Kolob -- deserve nothing more than my deepest disgust and disdain.

They don't get a free pass because their "leaders" put on the show. Mormons are supposed to have "free agency," remember? Looks like the "free agency" and "small inner voice" of far too many directed them to be overtly hostile, oppressive assholes.

Yes, overtly hostile. The glee the Mormon H8 supporters took in their Pyrrhic victory was nothing short of savage.

No, I do not respect their beliefs -- and not simply because those beliefs strike me as the most ridiculous thing I've heard since I learned about Xenu and body thetans, but because there must be something inherently wrong with any belief system that leads a people to relegate African-Americans to "cursed" status, treat LGBTs as subhuman monsters, and then cry persecution -- and cherish their self-inflicted martyrhood -- when they're called on their outrageous actions.

The ones who complied out of fear -- well, how can anyone respect such cowardice? Sorry, but if maintaining my social circle and my income relied on knowingly and deliberately damaging the lives of total strangers, I would have no choice than to say goodbye to my friends, and live on the street.

That doesn't make me better than anyone else -- it only means I could not live the rest of my life tortured by the knowledge of the deep, unabiding, irreparable hurt I had caused perfectly innocent people who had never harmed me, and whom I would likely never meet.

I have often written directly to the Mormon populace at large, and it always goes something like this:

Before Prop 8, I never gave the Mormon church a second thought, other than the few moments I spent feeling annoyed by your knocks on my front door. I was completely indifferent to Mormonism -- and it would have been better for both of us if it had stayed that way. But, no -- you had to interfere with my life, my liberty, and my pursuit of happiness, and attempt to destroy the most precious thing to me in the world: my family.

And then you play victim?

And now I will be surprised if anyone actually reads all this.

[Radical Activist]

103. Thanks for writing all that.

My point about tithing money is that the prop 8 funds came from separate donations. It doesn't surprise me that a small portion came directly from the church. I wasn't trying to minimize the large role the LDS church played in many other ways.

I know that Mormons I speak without outside of California weren't aware of the prop 8 fight until recently. The church's activity was focused in California. That's not an excuse for them, but my point is that I think there are many who simply don't understand how much hate and pain is spread by these drives. It's not presented to church members as a crusade to torment the evil gay menace. Most Mormons would be repulsed by someone like the Westboro Baptist nut. It's presented in much more benign language while church leaders claim they still love and accept gay members. You and I know how ridiculous that is, but it's not obvious to everyone living a sheltered life far away from California.

So, I wonder how many Mormons would be impacted if there were a way to communicate how much the prop 8 drive violates the tenets of their own church about love, acceptance, and respecting others. Many are conservative teabagger types who would just ignore it. Some would disapprove but still make excuses to remain Mormon. But opening the eyes of their members to how much harm its doing could be the best way to punish church leaders.

I left Mormonism long before prop 8. I didn't know about the ex-gay programs for many years and it took hearing from gay ex-Mormons before I found out how horrible those were (this is the first I've heard about electrodes). It eventually became one of several reasons why I left the church I was raised in.

Your anger is justified. I'm not trying to make excuses for any Mormon who participated or stood by while the prop 8 drive happened. I do argue that there's nothing in Mormonism that's harder to believe than the idea that Noah put two of every animal on the Ark or that Jesus fed a crowd with two loaves of bread. And it's history is no uglier than a Pope who officially sanctioned the slave trade or the Southern Baptists who split off because they were pro-slavery. I guess my point is that people change and I think it's a mistake to simply write off all Mormons as total crazies.

[Withywindle]

97. Schadenfreude is SWEET!

I especially enjoy thinking about how much money they flushed down the crapper over this. (Well, then I think about all the GOOD things that money could have done in the hands of people with actual ethics, and then I don't feel so good.)


I'm just waiting for people of ALL religions to learn that it just isn't possible to make a case that "God is Love" while spending so much energy and money and vitriol attacking love.