Churchill ordered UFO cover-up, National Archives show

[Ichingcarpenter]

Source: BBC


The government took the threat of UFOs so seriously in the 1950s that UK intelligence chiefs met to discuss the issue, newly-released files show.
Ministers even went on to commission weekly reports on UFO sightings from a committee of intelligence experts.The papers also include a wartime account claiming prime minister Winston Churchill ordered a UFO sighting be kept secret to prevent "mass panic".


The files also include an account of a wartime meeting attended by Winston Churchill in which, it is claimed, the prime minister was so concerned about a reported encounter between a UFO and RAF bombers, that he ordered it be kept secret for at least 50 years to prevent "mass panic".

Nick Pope, who used to investigate UFO sightings for the MoD, said: "The interesting thing is that most of the UFO files from that period have been destroyed

"But what happened is that a scientist whose grandfather was one of his bodyguards, said look, Churchill and Eisenhower got together to cover up this phenomenal UFO sighting, that was witnessed by an RAF crew on their way back from a bombing raid.

"The reason apparently was because Churchill believed it would cause mass panic and it would shatter people's religious views."

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10853905

---

Fu Fighters

[Jamastiene]

1. K&R

I've seen a UFO. Well, it was a UFO to me. I'm no expert on aviation and what kind of flying object would be triangular shaped and lit X-Files green all over. It flew fast in the night sky and make a 90 degree turn on a time. I appeared to stop in its flight path for a split second, make the 90 degree turn, then fly off faster than before. After the 90 degree turn, it flew so fast it disappeared. It was gone almost as fast as it appeared, lasting maybe 5 seconds total. I know I didn't imagine it.

I would love to finally know of others who have seen the nonstandard non-"saucer shaped" triangular shaped green UFOs.

K&R for truth and thank you for the article.
Be prepared to be called a crackpot conspiracy theorist for the article link though. After posting about my experience, I'll be putting on a flame retardant suit too.

[FedUpWithIt All]

2. My mother saw an UFO of some sort as a child.

Apparently she and my aunt were playing on a nearby playground and this object lowered in over them. It hovered for a while. My mother and my aunt both recount this story and neither has any explanation. Apparently my mother was so frightened that she pushed her younger sister's head down and would not allow her to look up at the object out of fear for her safety. My aunt says that my mother was absolutely terrified.

The object my mother says she saw is similar to the ones seen in several unexplained events in the 60's in Ohio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portage_County_UFO_chase

The Portage County UFO Chase was an unidentified flying object encounter that began in Portage County, Ohio on the morning of April 17, 1966, when police officers Dale Spaur and Wilbur Neff observed a metallic, disc shaped object flying in the skies.

They pursued the object for about half an hour, ending up in Pennsylvania before losing sight of the UFO. Several other police officers became involved in the chase, and several civilians reported witnessing the same object, or a similar object in about the same area, during this time.

The UFO encounter earned significant mainstream publicity, and probably inspired a scene in Steven Spielberg's Close Encounters of the Third Kind, where three Indiana police cruisers are depicted chasing several UFOs into Ohio, eastbound across state lines.

After interviewing one of the police witnesses, Project Blue Book (the official UFO investigative arm of the U.S. Air Force) determined that the witnesses had chased a communications satellite, then the planet Venus. This conclusion was rejected by the officers involved as ridiculously inadequate, and was furthermore subject to some wider criticism, contributing to the opinions of some observers that Blue Book was a failure as an investigative project. The UFO chase was one of the cases that contributed to the creation of the Condon Committee, ostensibly an independent scientific investigation of UFOs.

[mtnester]

28. My father talks about his sightings of the same incident

he and several of his fellow police officers...they reported to the local officials, and the federal governemnt showed up.

They say weather balloon, my dad says horseshit

My dark, silent black triangle sighting still makes my heart beat funny and releases stupid endorphines into my system that mimic the abject fear of a traingle the size of a football field silent as hell and kind of hover flying above tall tree level right over you...I tried to back up and blend into the wall of the house, and now I realize how ridiculous that would have been, as I probably lit up like a thermal Xmas tree. Oh, and holding my breath helped too (probably not)

[amitten]

84. A friend of mine, in another state, had the exact same experience.

He described exactly what you're describing. He was living in Kansas at the time.

[jobycom]

3. Well, technically it says that the son of a former bodyguard of Churchill's says that Churchill

ordered a cover-up. There are no records of Churchill actually doing so. Given the war with Germany, there are all kinds of more mundane terrors Churchill could have been trying to hide.

Interesting story. Lots of neat documents. Of course, anyone who believes they are hiding proof will say that they are still hiding proof, and anyone who believes there is no proof will say "See, they've shown you everything." So, you know, ssdd, but with lots more reading material.

[Liberation Angel]

4. Unidentified is pretty vague as far as proving anything

but it doesn't disprove anything either.

That is a pretty cool anecdote about Churchill though. I do oral histories and you can't discount their reliability nor can you accept them vlindly.

Maybe its true, but who really knows.

How helpful is that?

I saw a weird ufo thingie with my Dad and a friend when i was a kid.

But whatever it was it SEEMED like it could be from an ET source. But I can't prove it nor was it exceptionally profound (it was far away)

Al I'm saying is that I do not think you can rule them out and y experience makes me much more open to the idea that they have made some contact already and that coveriups by government for the reasons stated (Mass panic and religious confusion) seem like a possibility.

PLUS - with all the corruption in this world who knows what is really going on in the highest levels of government?

Maybe they know more and maybe not.

But I am kinda thinking that intelligent life from outside this planet might be reluctant to "tocuh base" with the corrupt leaders of this world.

[Ichingcarpenter]

5. I think the point is Churchill knew what pilots were reporting

which was well documented and covered it up.

He never said they were not real.

[Turbineguy]

6. Well, that's one good thing about Reaganomics

Aliens don't seem to want to take over any more.

[Beam Me Up]

146. Ummm.....

Maybe that's what 'taking over' looks like -- Reaganomics, I mean, and all that's followed from it. So much wealth and power in the hands of so few, many of whom seem to act more reptilian than human. They might as well be, even if they're not.

[Turbineguy]

147. You know,

you've opened up an entirely new line of thinking. And it may explain everything. In short, Reagan really was a space alien.

[Beam Me Up]

150. Well, I'm from another planet ...

so just being a space alien in and of itself means little. Some species are more hostile than others. Raygun was actually a mere drone. It was thin-lipped papa pulling the strings.

[Mac1949]

7. If this is legit, the reason may have involved technology

more than anything else. After all, we managed to grab off a bunch of German scientists and advanced technology at the end of the war. At that point who knew what Stalin might have gotten hold of? Without getting into the whole Nazi ufo myth, german designers did have a number of aircraft reminiscent of ufos, such as this: http://www.luft46.com/fw/fwvtol.html or this: http://www.luft46.com/misc/sackas6.html Side note: for anyone who's interested that entire site is fascinating to browse through. Some of the projects the Germans had on the drawing board at the end of the war were eerily close to the appearance of many modern aircraft, even if they were just desperation pipe dreams.

[Doc_Technical]

106. Under "Operation Paper clip"

many German scientists and plans were brought back
to the U.S. and some of those projects were tied
that are similar to these projects such as
Chance Vought V-173 and XF5U-1 Flying Pancakes.

[Joanne98]

8. I've seen two.

[End Of The Road]

29. I'd like to hear more.

You're one of the most sane and intelligent posters on DU. I can't imagine dismissing out-of-hand your interpretation of what you saw.

[truebrit71]

34. As have I on two different continents..

..

[Jackpine Radical]

55. As have I.

Two, on 2 different continents: SE Asia and North America. In addition, I once encountered a sheriff's roadblock and was routed around an area that I later found out was the site of a reported landing. I didn't see whatever it was, and don't know what they found, if anything. There was a rather confusing story about it the next day. This was in Dane County, WI, a few miles south of Madison, in about 1974.

[GaltFreeDiet]

9. "it would shatter people's religious views."

That's a good thing. The fundies can suck it!

[obxhead]

135. Yes, I can't think of a better reason to release all the info.

Welcome to DU :hi:

[RedCloud]

10. When these aliens find out about Arizona's anti-alien stance, look out!

I just hope they take all those repugs to a new planet, such as Venus. Dumb repugs will probably think all that talk about the heat and green house atmosphere and being under pressure there is just all part of the liberal science anti-business approach.

And besides the free market will fix that environment licketty split.

[blackbart99]

102. No worries for Arizona...

...We all know UFO's like Nevada(area 51) and New Mexico(Roswell). No self respecting alien would give Arizona any of their tourist dollars.:tinfoilhat: :hide: :yoiks:

[sulphurdunn]

11. UFOs exist. That's a fact.

The idea that they may be extraterrestrial in origin is extremely remote.

[valerief]

19. That's my thinking, too. Someone's building 'em and someone's flying 'em and

it's probably not the man from Mars.

That is, if they exist.

[bjobotts]

141. Could even be man in the future visiting man in the past. but a microchip did just appear

[bjobotts]

142. Just like the internet can't even really be explained or how it was created and from where.

but they all came about after these sightings began. The excuse that it would destroy religious beliefs if the truth be known definitely fits. It would be equivalent to finding Jesus' body (which has already been done and covered up). People could not accept it...and wouldn't accept it. Oh the hypocrisy of all those goobers claiming God told them to run for office exposed as liars and cons...which they are.

[onehandle]

100. Exactly right. nt

[Dr.Phool]

12. I saw one yesterday.

My wife was cooking.

An Unidentified Frying Object.

That was right before the UFO detector went off, and ADT called.

[laylah]

13. !

:rofl: Thanks for the early morning laugh.

Jenn

[Dr.Phool]

22. My wife got mad at me.

I answered the phone when ADT made their alarm monitoring call, and asked "How come you guys always know when she's cooking"?

[icnorth]

30. I trust Mrs. Phool is a good sport...

a airborne iron skillet is not something to be trifled with.;)

[Dr.Phool]

32. She has a good sense of humor.

She has to. She married me.

[Flatulo]

14. Although I believe that the sheer size of the galaxy and the hundreds

of billions of stars require that there must be some other life forms out there, the odds of us ever contacting an advanced civilization are extremely remote. There's no way around the speed limit imposed by light, and the bloody distances make it extremely unlikely that anyone else could ever make it here in a billion lifetimes.

So even though we are most likely not alone, there will not be any contact. I wish it weren't so. Can you imagine the unifying effect that contact with an advanced civilization would have? Our quarrels here would become seemingly trivial.

[Myrina]

16. +1

:hi:

[howard112211]

20. Re: "Speed limit imposed by light"

It is a common misconception that special relativity places lower bounds on in how short a time, from a subjective point of view, one can travel from point A to point B. Actually, one could in fact travel from earth to alpha centauri within a single second on the co-moving clock. The point is that the person left behind will observe that the spaceship is moving at a speed slower than that of light. The person on the spaceship however will experience a lorentz contraction of the distance between earth and alpha centauri, and will therefore reach the destination in an arbitrarily short subjective time. The person left behind will observe however, that a much longer time has passed.

Bottom line: A sufficiently developed society could travel to earth from a distant world. It would likely be a one-way trip for them though, since centuries would pass on their homeworld during the trip.

[Flatulo]

31. Yeah, I understand time dilation. But since we can only travel at about

1/15,000 of c, it's still an academic exercise. Hundreds or thousands of centuries would pass for the stay-behinds by the time a ship could reach anyplace interesting.

Goddamned universe is just inconceivably huge.

[howard112211]

40. My point is that a sufficiently developed civilization might actually be able to pull it off.

Provided they are willing to abandon the stay behinds entirely (or have insanely long lifespans), they may be able to travel to any point in space they please. There is no principle reason to keep them from doing it. The thing is, that they would need a really good reason to do such a thing. Let's say the entire species wants to relocate to a different world, for instance.

But they would have to be insanely advanced. If they choose our world as a destination, they would do as they please with us once they get here. There would be not the slightest thing we would be able to do. Take the disparity between the native Americans and the white settlers, and multiply it by a thousand...

[defendandprotect]

49. The idea is that these ETs may have been visiting our planet for

hundreds of thousands of years -- we may be hybrids -- read the Bible on that!

They may also be able to time travel -- "a wrinkle in time"? -- and obviously at

speeds we can't even comprehend leave alone reproduce!

They are said to be a billion years ahead of us -- some of them, at least.

There have never been any signs that I've head of that they are warmongering --

in fact, the reverse seems to be true with what looks like our aiming missiles at them!

Also, I think this is rather narrow minded thinking . . .

Take the disparity between the native Americans and the white settlers, and multiply it by a thousand...

The "disparity" between the Western European, propelled by Christianity, vs the native

American is simply the difference between peaceful/spiritual people and very violent people.

The Papal Bulls are but one example of that -- giving license to the "discovers" to

enslave the native American -- and or murder them. It's the very basis for genocide vs

the native American! Papal Bull also called for the enslavement of the African here --

or their murder!

Not only in the Crusades, but in the "Christian" invasion of this continent, is recorded the

most brutal, vile, murderous, vicious violence the planet has ever seen -- in this case

white men visiting it upon the native American!!


"A People's History of the US" by Howard Zinn might help there!



PS: They may have also developed other life - robots -- grays? - to man these space ships?

[Flatulo]

91. Yes, multi-generational space travel is a recurring theme in SF.

There a few good Star Trek episodes about it. It's the only reasonable way to get anywhere.

Such a mission would require a fairly well-understood refuel/resupply route.

[howard112211]

133. The scenario I am thinking of...

...goes more something like this: The sun of a species' homeworld is dying, so they search the sky for proper locations to move to. Of course, they look at early stage planets and work through the forecasts. Then they pick one and take off.

The thing is: For them it doesn't have to be multi-generational. That was my initial point. The misunderstood thing about special relativity is that there is a speed limit in the local frame of reference. There isn't. The speed limit exists only for an outside observer that is tracking the relative velocities of moving objects and light signals. The light signal will always move faster than any object. Moreover, in any frame of reference the speed of light is the same. That does NOT however mean that I cannot travel any distance in an arbitrarily short time, in MY frame of reference. Because time dilation and Lorentz contraction are flip sides of the same coin: What looks to an outside observer like me taking a long time to get somewhere and having a slow clock, looks to me like me having a normal clock and the distance between me and my destination being contracted. In other words: I can haul ass over to Alpha Centuri (which is four lightyears away) and back on a single afternoon (neglecting that the acceleration will crush me) on my personal wristwatch. Everything along my path of travel, including the path itsself, will be contracted to a shorter length. But on earth the minimum of eight years (there and back) will always have passed.

If an alien species picks a solar system on the sky that is 100.000 light years away, and calculates how it will develop, they could haul ass over to that solar system within a week in their local frame of reference, and arrive at that solar system at a well defined later stage of its developement.

[leveymg]

114. A 27-light-year trip at 1G acceleration would seem to take 7 years, would actually last

90 years (constant time back on earth). Such continuous acceleration to the midpoint would be followed by an equal period of deceleration. A thermonuclear pulse engine (multiple lasers focused on a series of tritium pellets injected into a combustion chamber, the thrust from the explosions focused backwards by a magnetic nozzle) or several varieties of nuclear-powered ion drive thrusters are both technologically feasible power sources. The technology for manned flight to nearby star systems is probably only about a century away, if we don't destroy ourselves first. See, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=228&topic_id=62287&mesg_id=62349

As for UFOs, there have been written reports for centuries.

[qazplm]

119. solar sails could travel

at a much greater fraction of C. We can come up with ideas right now that can get us say halfway there.

I have no doubt that a society say 500 years advanced to us could come up with a practical way to generate the propulsion necessary to go say half the speed of light.
Now the shielding, resources to maintain life, etc are other stories.

I think eventually we will meet up with another lifeform as we move out ourselves, but it may not be for hundreds/thousands of years.

There will always be folks willing to "leave it all behind" to start anew on a brand new world. You could find tens of thousands of folks right now on this planet who'd do it for all sorts of reasons.

[zipplewrath]

35. It's my problem with the whole "alien" schtick

The only way they get here is by avoiding the time problem. So you now have a species that is so advance they can move around the universe in ways that avoid the limits of relativity. And they choose to hang around earth and study us yet manage to get caught doing it regularly but also choose to make no other formal "contact". Why? The prime directive or something?

[ustilago]

45. The same reasons some humans...

...dedicate their lives to studying certain varieties of insects.

[zipplewrath]

48. But they don't hide from them

I know what you mean, but would they both hide from them while simultaneously do such a lousy job. Those humans who study insects would talk to them, if they thought for a minute they could communicate.

[ustilago]

50. And this is where the humanity's all-consuming hubris comes in...

Why do you assume that--even if an alien race was able to communicate with us--they would think that we were worth the effort? Especially if they've been monitoring us for years and years and years and they've seen how we carry on? What about us as a species is so impressive that it would make another species that had managed interstellar travel want to engage us in conversation?

I'm from here and I can barely stand to talk to most people.

[zipplewrath]

52. Well, it's the combination

In part, I'm a bit along the line of "who'd be interested in the first place", but you know people study everything in detail, from mold to fossils. But I would wager a bet that in every case, if they thought they could communicate with them, they would. Furthermore, if they think so little of them that they wouldn't bother to try, it isn't clear that they would then spend so much time "hiding" so to speak.

[ustilago]

71. That is if they ARE hiding...

Where's the evidence that they are?

[zipplewrath]

76. Evidence and UFO's

I hesitate to use the words "evidence" and "UFO" in the same sentence. It's more a case of assertion by those claiming they are "here".

[ustilago]

89. Not really. (nt)

...

[defendandprotect]

97. Rather if there is any hard evidence, the government has it --

and from what we can see, that's where the "hiding" begins and ends --

Both Reagan and Carter had UFO experiences -- in large groups --

Reagan in an airplane where many others saw the spaceship close to them for

quite some time --

Carter on the ground with many other observers --

When Carter reached the White House, he asked Poppy Bush, Director of the CIA for

info on UFOs. Pres. Carter was told by Bush that he didn't have high enough clearance

to see the info!!

In other words, UFO info requires a higher security clearance that info on atomic weapons!!

Presidents are being denied this info - - !!

[boppers]

138. Why don't people communicate with the mold and fossils?

More importantly, why aren't they listening to what the mold and fossils have to say?

You are assuming that both parties share a *way* to communicate that is common between them. Maybe mold is actually "chatty" as hell, but we don't know how to listen to it.

[defendandprotect]

53. "Humans 'worth the effort'" . . . ? We may in fact be a danger to the universe . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4492484&mesg_id=4492818


Evidence seems to show that other worlds have been visiting our planet for hundreds

of thousands of years -- cave drawings -- rock drawings -- art -- even the Bible --

seem evidence for that. In fact, that was one of the first questions the native

Americans asked Columbus about -- the sky people! Columbus denied knowing anything

about it.

The intensive visits seem to center around our use of atomic weapons in the 1940's --

and even current interests always seem connected to nuclear weapons storage and/or

taking nuclear weapons into space, which evidently we've tried to do. Werner von

Braun wanted to use nuclear fuel for the rockets, btw, which JFK was very much against --

rightly so!

So -- it's more likely we are a threat to the universe -- obviously also to our own

planet!

[ustilago]

70. Trust me...

...the only thing we're a threat to is ourselves. We'll be lucky if we last another 1,000 years as a species.

The idea that we're a threat to the universe is laughable.

[defendandprotect]

75. You mean exploding nuclear weapons in outer space -- as we did in 1960's ....

couldn't possibly be considered a threat to the environment, outer space,

or the health of the universe?

And, btw, evidently we did that in hopes of knocking out the Van Allen Radiation

Belts!!

Yeah -- it's laughable all right!! In kind of sick way!!



:eyes:


:nuke:

[LTX]

85. The sun is a nuclear explosion in space.

No, exploding nuclear weapons in space isn't a threat to the "outer space environment" or the "health of the universe." We might kill ourselves doing it, but believe me, Alpha Centauri wouldn't notice.

[ustilago]

88. This. (nt)

...

[defendandprotect]

93. So nuclear is good for you . . . ???

We are all made from the same thing -- and obviously radidation isn't good for us --

therefore it isn't either good for the planet -- nor the universe.

[Flatulo]

94. There would be no diversity of life without radiation. Mutations, some

beneficial, that are caused by cosmic radiation, are the engine of evolution.

[ustilago]

101. The universe is full of radiation...

...and the universe doesn't give a crap if we exist or not.

Bad for us does not = bad for the universe.

[defendandprotect]

116. But we are PROTECTED from it by our environment . . .

nor do I think that you actually would support exploding nuclear

weapons in space to knock out Van Allen Belts . . . or would you??

Or taking nuclear weapons into space . . . ? That a good idea in your book?

[ustilago]

130. I personally couldn't give less of a crap...

You stated that we were a potential threat to the universe. That's still a ridiculous statement.

[defendandprotect]

139. So why would I bother debating someone who in the end "couldn't give less of a crap" . . .???

We've damaged the ozone --

We've created Global Warming --

We use an economic system which exploits nature and animal life -- even humans --

and it is all a threat to the planet --

Unless you think what's just gone on with BP was some "walk in the park" for nature?

Unfortunately, we do represent a threat to nature -- all of it!

[dencol]

144. The nuclear reaction from the sun.

Is a little different than the nuclear reaction of a nuclear weapon. Furthermore, it is rather obvious that there is something of interest on this planet, so aliens would have a vested interest in stopping us from irradiating it.

[LTX]

103. You're right!

"Nuclear" is bad for the universe! It must be eradicated! We must destroy the sun so that we can live healthy (if rather short) non-nuclear lives!

[defendandprotect]

117. If you think nuclear is good for humans tell that to survivors of Chernobyl . . .

or three mile island --

Presumably, you don't think exploding nuclear weapons -- even in space -- is a

bad idea? What do we need with the Van Allen Radiation Belts, anyway? Eh?

[Wednesdays]

145. A nice pair of shoes?

:shrug:

Sorry, couldn't resist. :P

[Occulus]

148. Repeat after me until it sticks:

THE UNIVERSE IS FULL OF RADIATION. THERE IS NO PLACE IN OUTER SPACE THAT IS FREE FROM RADIATION. THE AMOUNT OF RADIOACTIVE MATERIAL AND CHARGED PARTICLES SPRAYED IN ALL DIRECTIONS INTO SPACE EACH SECOND BY OUR SUN ALONE- ONLY ONE UNREMARKABLE STAR OUT OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF OTHER STARS JUST IN OUR OWN GALAXY- IS MORE RADIATION THAN THE SUM TOTAL THAT THE HUMAN RACE WILL EVER HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO PRODUCE OVER THE FULL COURSE OF ALL OF HUMAN EXISTENCE. THERE IS NOTHING HUMANS CAN EVER POSSIBLY DO TO "HARM" THE UNIVERSE WITH REGARD TO OUR RADIOACTIVE PRODUCTION AND OUTPUT, INCLUDING USING NUCLEAR POWERED SHIPS AND WEAPONS IN OUTER SPACE.

FURTHERMORE, THE PLANET EARTH ITSELF HAS SEVERAL ACTIVE NUCLEAR SITES THAT ARE NOT MAN-MADE. THESE ARE NATURAL NUCLEAR PILES. THAT MEANS THE PLANET ITSELF INVENTED NUCLEAR "POWER" BEFORE HUMANS EVER ENTERED THE SCENE.

Understood?

[Flatulo]

86. I hardly think we're a threat to the universe. One good solar fart

would erradicate all life on earth in a hail of high-energy particles.

The universe doesn't even know we exist. We're merely a fluke, a combination of being on a world with an active cosmic ray bath (to cause genetic mutations and evolution) and an abundance of energy.

[dencol]

112. We have lots of water.

Not to mention a lot of rare elements that any technology would probably demand. Just because your (indeed our) primitive minds cannot fathom exactly what an advanced species is after, doesn't mean it isn't so. Obviously, there is quite a bit of interest in our planet, or so many of us (including here on DU) wouldn't witness flying craft that shoot into space in the blink of an eye.

[defendandprotect]

118. Some suggest they use water as fuel -- in some manner . . .

Don't forget, there are underwater UFO's -- think they call them Unidentified

Submerged Objects -- and they evidently rise from the water very rapidly, but

on occasion, looks like they're using water to refuel?

Seems like they might have long been "mining" on earth -- one of the minerals

they seem to be interested in begins with a "B" -- can't think of it right now --

but evidently plenty of it near Walkill River in NJ. Think that's it???

Always get a kick out of the suggestions that this is something "earthly" --

probably "secret military" -- !!! Comical, actually!

[ustilago]

132. Perhaps your primative mind...

...can't grasp the possibility that in a universe as vast as our, there's a really good chance that Earth isn't the only place where aliens could get all of these valuable "resources" that we seem to think we've cornered the market on?

Again, the hubris. We're so great! We have things only found here on Earth that the aliens want! If they existed we'd all know it by now because they'd have sent us all personal greeting cards, because how could they not want to talk to us?! WE'RE JUST SO AMAZING!

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CoffeeCat]

140. LOLOL!!!

Oh my..that just struck a chord with me.

It's so true. We could be viewed as really boring, annoying, infantile and ignorant schleps--as far
as the universe goes. Human beings could be the assholes of the Milky Way!

For all we know--there's a vast universe out there full of exciting, enlightened, peaceful beings who
think we're all a bunch of losers!

We human beings really are a weird species. We are capable of such a wide range of behaviors--from
atrocious to beautiful. The human condition can be pretty bizarre.

I don't know. Who does?

[MicaelS]

87. Yes, The prime directive

We can only judge from our own human perspective, but most times, right here on Earth, when an advanced (Western) civilization has discovered and contacted a primitive one, the primitive one has been irrevocably changed, and often destroyed. So yes, they may be only observing us to avoid destroying our civilization.

What would happen if an alien civilization contacted Earth, and offered us the solutions to our problems?

So let's say war, poverty disease, and aging are all "cured". Will the human PTB accept all this? Will they accept their loss of power, privilege, wealth?

Will humans accept that they must limit their breeding since no one dies any longer except by accident?

We are a remarkably stubborn species who does not like being told what to do. What if the alien's civilization is a form humans are not willing to accept as "Overlords"? And that's a reference to Arthur C. Clarke's classic novel Childhood's End.

And what if the history we have come to accept as truth is shown to be false. Suppose human civilization goes back 100,000 years or longer, and has risen and fallen multiple times?

What happens if ALL religions are shown to be pure myth? Suppose the aliens can prove there is no afterlife. My personal opinion is so many people have a religious faith as part of their bedeck of their lives if civilization would collapse.

And MAYBE we have not "graduated" yet. Maybe, we're not considered civilized until we have a single planetary government, eliminated war, poverty and developed interstellar travel on our own. Until then we're just primitives. AlA Star Trek First Contact, the Vulcans did not contact humanity until we prove we could build a warp drive.

[grantcart]

121. Redaction Criticism also should be used

Redaction Criticism is used to evaluate things that happen in the past by examining other things that were happening that were likely to have an impact.

For example Thomas Young makes a significant advance in deciphering the Egyptian Rosetta Stone's hieroglyphs in 1814 that in the 1820's there was a surge of interest in translating Egyptian hieroglyphs.

Then in the 1820's Joseph Smith miraculously finds tablets from God that have heiroglyphs just at the time that we are able to translate Egyptian hieroglyphs for the first time. Redaction criticism makes the point that its too big a coincidence.

So the universe is billions of years old. Humans have been evolving over the last few hundred thousands of years. Human Society has been literate for about 4,000 years but people start seeing flying saucers at the exact same time that we are able to make flying saucers and the concept of flying to other planets is already in our consciousness.

Now if they had only landed at Gettysberg and stopped the carnage it would have been so much more conclusive.

[dencol]

110. And there used to be no way we could fly.

Technology solves issues such as traveling over distances. Just because we don't understand how to do it right now, doesn't mean our technology couldn't do it in a million years. I think you're refusing to think outside your small box.

[Flatulo]

115. I sincerely hope you're right. Einsteing didn't buy quantum mechanics,

but the probablistic nature of existence, as bizarre as it seems on the surface, has been proven beyond any doubt.

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. If there was intelligent life out there...

The universe would be crawling with, if not ET's, then at least robotic space probes.

We are within 50 years of being able to launch self-replicating, self-repairing, autonomous spacecraft.

Humans won't ever personally visit other planets in this galaxy, but if the species survives long enough, we will almost undoubtedly explore them (and leave our mark) via remote robotic presence.

Fermi was right.

[Ter]

128. No need to break the speed of light

Wormholes are the key. You enter here and come out across the galaxy. Perhaps they mastered it?

[Butch350]

134. Why sure there are...

Who do you think dropped us all off on the third rock from the sun.

[smalll]

136. I'm entirely in agreement with you -- except for your last two sentences!

I'm happy it IS so. "Can you imagine the unifying effect that contact with an advanced civilization would have? Our quarrels here would become seemingly trivial." Yes -- they would become trivial because a civilization advanced enough to make it here would conquer and enslave us, rape the world of resources, or perhaps just eliminate us to give them a new world to colonize. Kind of like the Spanish did to the Aztecs and the Incas. In fact, kind of like ANY human group has done when it has come into contact with another group of humans SO much less advanced than themselves -- the temptation is too much to resist.

Yes, thank God we are all too far away from each other in this universe. If not, it would be Cortes and the Conquest of Mexico all over again. Cortes showed up with sailing ships, iron armor, guns, horses and dogs -- NONE of which the Aztecs had. Any aliens who could actually reach here would be Cortes to our Atzecs.

[Ian David]

15. I have an invisible UFO in my garage. n/t

[Joe Bacon]

17. We've scared any aliens off!

All they have to do is watch our TV broadcasts or listen to Rush. They're scared to death of us!

[Ichingcarpenter]

18. Maybe a 'Failed' Experiment or an Experiment

that is not yet finished..... besides I never contact my microbes in a science experiment.

The record of Foo Fighters in WW2 was well documented by both the allies and the axis, seems most
of the foo fighters were just observing.

[defendandprotect]

54. Possibly trying to signal that violence is self-destructive?

[jberryhill]

58. You'd think they'd figure out a way to communicate that

They can zip through the universe, but have poor communication skills.

[defendandprotect]

74. No -- I think it's more like we have poor listening skills . . .!!

"Violence only breeds more violence" -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[jberryhill]

77. MLK was a space alien?

Who knew?

[defendandprotect]

81. That comment seems to be a signal ....

that it's time for you to retreat back to the dungeon --

[sofa king]

21. I have a pet theory about the first Foo Fighters.

One of the very first incidents involved a British bomber, flying out on a mission at night, which found itself pursued by a glowing "object" that easily kept pace with the plane while performing seemingly impossible maneuvers. It rattled the pilot and co-pilot so bad that the plane turned back.

Anyone familiar with the writings of Joseph Heller knows that aircrews, kept in combat far too long with no counseling, would resort to almost any ruse to avoid the most dangerous missions, for example the suicidal British raids on the Ruhr.

The description I give above can actually be reproduced on the ground on almost any night with fog or low cloud cover. Just take a powerful spotlight or flashlight and point it at the clouds, then wiggle it around.

Aircraft at high altitude tend to leave a contrail, so a tail-gunner (living under a virtual death-sentence because he usually could not wear his parachute in the tail of the plane) with a flashlight could easily light up the contrail, produce the "crazy maneuvers," and let the fears of the rest of the crew return the plane to safety.

Once one plane was successfully turned back, Foo Fighters began showing up in increasing numbers. I wonder if any researchers have tracked aircrew to see if a particular door- or tail-gunner was on more than one of those flights. That doesn't have to be the case to reinforce my theory, but it would help.

[defendandprotect]

56. That probably also explains the Reagan and Carter sightings - and Roswell -- !!!

Whaat -- ?

[sofa king]

137. Those, maybe not so much, but....

But what I'm talking about... hey, I'll bet someone here is reading DU in an airport, about to get on a plane, with a keychain flashlight that hasn't been confiscated by The Man yet. Once you're at altitude, try shining the flashlight out the window, behind the wing, far enough behind the engine that the exhaust is lit up.

Alternatively, you can just wait for the landing lights to come on if the cloud cover is low enough. Come to think of it, that might be better, seeing as repeating the phenomenon has a chance of scaring the shit out of passengers and crew. The lights probably won't dance for you that way, though.

If someone actually tries it, reply to this post, eh? And thanks.

As for the term, "foo fighter," check out the W:

In a mission debriefing on the evening November 27, 1944, Fritz Ringwald, the unit's S-2 Intelligence Officer, stated that Don Meiers and Ed Schleuter had sighted a red ball of fire that appeared to chase them through a variety of high-speed maneuvers. Fritz said that Don was extremely agitated and had a copy of the comic strip tucked in his back pocket. He pulled it out and slammed it down on Fritz's desk and said, "... it was another one of those fuckin' foo fighters!" and stormed out of the debriefing room.

And the red part? That would be the TL-122 flashlight with the red lens ring.

[Deep13]

23. Did it look like this?

[keith the dem]

24. Hasn't anybody heard of the cold war.

Our governments were working on all manner of top secret aircraft at that time. The US was even experimenting with nuclear powered aircraft.
The "Soviet Threat" was thought to be real and was very scary. Of course Churchill ordered a cover-up of sightings of these top secret aircraft.

[Bluenorthwest]

27. The problem with that theory is that the objects

did things our machines still can not do. So the deal is this, they are unidentified, you are just making a guess, and that guess does not fit our science facts anymore than the object being an alien craft fits our science. 'UFO' does not mean 'spaceship' it means a flying object that is not indentified. The object in question remains a UFO. Speculation is not fact, no matter what form the speculation takes. Your guess is as good as any, but it is still a guess, an opinion based on conjecture, lacking in evidence.

[defendandprotect]

62. At some point during the early 1950's UFO sightings over DC . . .

One of the high priests of the Pentagon -- Twinings? -- made a speech on TV

wherein he was saying that the UFO's are intelligently controlled -- highly

advanced -- and that we basically couldn't keep them from our skies!

BUT THAT THEY HAD SHOWN NO VIOLENCE TOWARDS US.

That was on video which still exists -- don't know if YouTube has it -- but

I've seen it a number of times.

OK -- so you can see what a statement like that would do the the Neanderthal brains

of people like "Nuke 'em Le May" . . . ? And other MIC hawks!

And any elites who understand the value of controlling information --

[Turborama]

36. This article is about something that happened during the 2nd World War

The Cold War started after the 2nd World War, in 1947.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War

[defendandprotect]

59. Wait . . . the most advanced in aerial and rockets and atomic weapons was GERMANY . . .

NOT USA . . .

in fact, there is some thought now that among many other things we picked up

from Germans after WWII, might have also been two atomic bombs -- and that only

the third one was one that we had produced!

The Cold War was a farce as we saw under JFK --

many possibilities on why -- MIC -- but certainly the US need for a constant enemy!

[Phoonzang]

25. Surely if there's nothing to this UFO thing, the US should follow the UK's lead

and release their UFO files, right?

[anarch]

51. LOL

that's a good one.

[defendandprotect]

64. "...most of the UFO files from that period have been destroyed...."

Didn't you notice that comment in the article?

Nick Pope, who used to investigate UFO sightings for the MoD, said: "The interesting thing is that Nick Pope, who used to investigate UFO sightings for the MoD, said: "The interesting thing is that most of the UFO files from that period have been destroyed.

"But what happened is that a scientist whose grandfather was one of his bodyguards, said look, Churchill and Eisenhower got together to cover up this phenomenal UFO sighting, that was witnessed by an RAF crew on their way back from a bombing raid.

"But what happened is that a scientist whose grandfather was one of his bodyguards, said look, Churchill and Eisenhower got together to cover up this phenomenal UFO sighting, that was witnessed by an RAF crew on their way back from a bombing raid.



You might also recall that when Rep. Steven Schiff of N.M. tried a generation or so ago to

get release of the info he was told that "there were no records" pretty much anywhere in

government! Schiff also died an early death, if I recall correctly!


President Carter, who also experienced a sighting, tried to get UFO info when he reached the

White House -- and he was advised by Director of the CIA Poppy Bush that he didn't have high

enough clearance to see the UFO files! In other words, UFO's are a higher security issue

than atomic weapons!!

[MorningGlow]

26. Fear of "mass hysteria"

Government muckety-mucks don't think very highly of us "lesser beings"/the great unwashed, do they? :eyes:

[defendandprotect]

66. I've personally always thought that the Orson Wells "War of the Worlds" thing was a gimmick...

which was an attempt for the paranoids to prove that there would be

"mass hysteria" if any reality of other worlds, other civilizations

became clear --

Of course, the ETs were presented in that work as invaders -- murderers!



There's also thinking that Eisenhower did develop contact with other worldly beings --

and that the scene from "Encounters of the Third Kind" at "Bear Claw Mountain" actually

did happen -- more or less that way. Others speculate that there have been "deals" made

with the aliens of various kinds. It doesn't look like they want to be violent with us --

but we certainly show signs of being violent with them. The original messages of abductees

in the 1960's -- Betty and Barney Hill, for instance -- were that we were headed for

environmental catastrophe! Eventually those messages ended -- but I think there are still

something like 1,500 Americans saying they've been abducted each year?

John Mack of Harvard was doing some very interesting work with some of those abductees --

and after many attempts to get him fired -- Mack was killed on a visit to London 10 years or

so ago -- in another questionable "hit and run" accident. The second that evening with

both victims named "John Mack"!




We've also heard that Truman saw the aliens in a visit to one of the labs --

And that Nixon also visited and viewed --

[zappaman]

105. OH

MY
GOD
you're serious, aren't you?

[Occulus]

149. Sadly, yes, s/he is.

Read above where s/he raises "concerns" about radioactive materials being harmful to... wait for it... THE UNIVERSE.

:rofl:

S/he reminds me of the woo-woo nutters that were concerned about the ecology of the moon when NASA crashed that probe into it. Yes, you heard me correctly- the ecology of the moon.

This level of ignorance from an adult human should scare the living piss out of all of us.

[Hubert Flottz]

33. "Top Secret Government Alien UFO Invasion Film"

"Top Secret Government Alien UFO Invasion Film"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv041-dAnqs

[jberryhill]

37. And the top front page story on DU the day after Prop 8 is knocked down is...

UFO's.

Nice.

If the space aliens don't have a political agenda, then why is this the front page news at DU?

When they start voting, call me.

[uncle ray]

43. every fucking day?

does the issue of gay rights have to always be DU's number one priority?

this website covers a variety of topics, some with little relevance to politics.

nobody came into the prop 8 threads and shut them down or posted that there was a new topic to discuss, you are free to stay on topic in those threads, please do so. your posting in this tread was rude.

that said, i'm very happy for our gay friends in CA for their victory, but this ain't the thread for that topic, and though i am happy, it is not a pet issue of mine so you probably won't hear another word from me on it. or on UFOs for that matter.

[jberryhill]

57. "pet issue" or not - this is something of a big news day on that one

And I have not yet determined the political agenda of the little green men.

It's just an odd piece for "The Front Page".

I make the same observations about the NY Post and the New York Times.

If the NYT headline is "Iran and Israel Sign Peace Accord", the Post will go with "Brooklyn Man Amputates Penis With Zipper".

It says something about the audience and the editors (of which DU members are collectively).

[AtheistCrusader]

44. Ahahahaha

nice.

...<sigh> shit you're completely right.

[Johonny]

46. +1

I for one welcome our alien overlords.

[defendandprotect]

67. Some of us can consider more than one issue at a time . . . i

[jberryhill]

79. Yes, well, that happens when you have multiple voices in your head

I know what you mean.

[defendandprotect]

83. YOU may know about "multiple voices in your head" . . .

don't judge everyone by yourself --

Just a reminder -- think they're looking for you in the dungeon ---

bye now

[Orrex]

38. If you can't trust third-hand hearsay and grainy 65-year-old pictures, what can you trust?

Hell, I'm convinced.

[ustilago]

47. It's not any stupider...

...than believing in God.

How many people on this plane do that with absolutely no evidence to go on other than some thousand-year-old books and what some other yahoo told them?

[jberryhill]

61. Orrex doesn't believe that either

But I don't think you'll see too many stories of "Government Hiding Existence of God" either.

[whatchamacallit]

63. No, they actively promote the existence of God

easier to herd the masses that way.

[ustilago]

68. Exactly. (nt)

...

[LanternWaste]

104. Like Taoism, Ordinary language philosophy, Naturalism, Existentialism

Like Taoism, Ordinary Language Philosophy, Naturalism, Existentialism, all forms of government and economics? All these things too, which exist no where but our own imaginations...

I imagine many people believe their own imaginary thoughts are somewhat more immune to the criticisms of the imaginary thoughts of others...

[jobycom]

80. You have the foolish impression that people will actually read the story.

Most never got beyond the headline. Some sort of skimmed over the clip.

It's not just third hand hearsay. It's third hand hearsay about a fourth party's testimony. Reminds me of the grapevine scene in Johnny Dangerously. The pilot probably said "Wow, I saw this unbelievable sunset on the horizon," and someone told Churchill "Hey, our pilot says you wouldn't believe the thing he saw on the horizon," and Churchill said "Well don't tell anyone, we don't want them panicking over some unidentified German flying thing," and the bodyguard told his son "Prime Minister Churchill didn't want them panicking over Unidentified Flying Objects," and the son grew up thinking his dad had said "Prime Minister didn't want people panicking and not going to the Church on the Hill because of UFOs," and...

[smoogatz]

39. Apparently the galaxy is crammed with earth-like planets.

It's likely, then, that on at least a few of those planets other advanced civilizations have evolved. It's likely that a fraction of those civilizations are more advanced than ours, and possible that some small number are far more advanced. It's even remotely possible that beings from one of those highly advanced civilizations have made their way here, to this remote planet in this remote and unremarkable solar system near the edge of the galaxy. But it seems unlikely. And more unlikely still that they'd play this goofy cat-and-mouse, now-you-see-us-now-you-don't game with the people they've come here to study, or eat, or plant their alien eggs in, or whatever. Why not just land the mothership on the White House lawn and say, "Howdy?"

As for those triangular/delta-shaped UFOs folks claim to have seen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_%28aircraft%29

[defendandprotect]

72. Maybe they have "landed on the WH lawn" . . . ?

I've posted a few comments above on the thread you might be interested in --

Many possibilities for other life in the universe -- and yes we are on the edge of it --

but seemingly we also have great potential for not only destroying our own planet but

harming the universe? That may have been why our dropping of atomic bombs during WWII

brought so much activity and why even currently the activity seems to be near military

bases where nuclear weapons are stored -- and also in buzzing our space rockets where

it is thought they are trying to keep nuclear materials out of space.

In fact, Werner Van Braun/NASA wanted to use nuclear fuel for rockets and JFK was adamant

that not be done -- quite an uproar at the time -- story came out later.

Always seemed natural to me that there would be other worlds/other life in universe --

and evidently the astronauts used to talk of "Heinz87 Varieties" --

However, evidently there are as many as 300+ different aliens species visiting us?

That kinda shocked me!


Re "landing on the WH lawn" -- some say that the scene in "Encounters of the Third Kind" with

the space ships landing at "Bear Claw Mountain" were based on true stories. That Eisenhower

had actually visited with them in a scene fairly like that one.

[smoogatz]

78. It must be nice, in a way, to have absolutely no capacity

for critical thinking. Rock on with your crazy-ass self.

[defendandprotect]

82. That's been how all civilizations have advanced . . .

hands over ears -- la, la, la, la, la --






:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[zappaman]

107. the hands over ears thing

seems to have been working out quite well for you.
you do realize that a nuke going off in this universe is like an ant farting in your backyard?

[LTX]

98. American Exceptionalism taken to its logical extreme.

We're so omnipresent and evil, we're a threat to the entire universe. And the peace loving indigenous tribes of the milky way, living as one with nature's gas clouds and supernovae, tremble in fear that we will someday despoil their fields of open hearth 90 billion megaton @ second thermonuclear furnaces with our "space rockets."

[colsohlibgal]

41. The Truth Is Out There

It cracks me up that skeptics often say people are mistaking Venus for a UFO - please. I'm pretty sure people like Barry Goldwater and Jimmy Carter would know the difference, and almost all others would as well. I know I do.

I saw something up in the sky once that defies explanation of anything here on earth - at least that we know about, there is always reverse engineering to think of.

There are probably countless other civilizations in the vastness of our universe and likely other universes and even other dimensions. Some of them certainly have advanced way beyond maybe obliterating themselves and may be so far advanced they can travel enormous distances very quickly.

There are some great DVD's, one that is very thoughtful is the "Phoenix Lights" DVD, the sightings there have been seen by countless people, many of them very grounded solid professional people. They couldn't all be hallucinating.

[RufusTFirefly]

42. Bingo. Fu Fighters would be my guess as well.

There's a strange all-or-nothing mind set that surrounds UFOs.

1. I think it's almost a statistical certainty that there is other intelligent life -- perhaps lots of it -- in the universe.

2. However, I think it's doubtful that the UFOs that have been sighted are extra-terrestrial in origin. More likely that they are Earth-devised experimental flying machines. Suggesting that extra-terrestrials would want to visit us -- and be capable of doing so -- follows in the same tradition as believing that the US is God's country, that the Earth is at the center of the solar system, and that our galaxy is at the center of the universe. It demonstrates an inflated sense of our own importance.

[RandomThoughts]

60. Although I don't believe in aliens.

I would guess they got great beer.

Just a joke, aliens is a simplistic explanation.

[Gamey]

65. Quantum Physics may eliminate speed of light barriers

Basically, a particle is split is then separated by vast distances. If one of the partial particles is modified (such as polarizing one of the partial photons), then the other half will also INSTANTANEOUSLY change.

[Desertrose]

69. Disclosure.

Pretty much here.

Just sayin'.

[defendandprotect]

73. The Disclosure Project is a great site --

unfortunately, you need membership to get their latest reports --

I'd always be happy to hear from any members here what they're working on right now!

[itsrobert]

90. WWII England Pilot = No sleep for days and experimental drugs/uppers

= Hallucinations

[defendandprotect]

96. Good of the Royal Airforce to keep their trust in those pilots, then . . .???!!!

Certainly they were the ones to send on new missions!!!

[NeedleCast]

92. Those pictures are excellent proof

lulz....

[defendandprotect]

95. For anyone just first considering this subject . . . I'd recommend ...

"The Day After Roswell" by Lt. Col. Philip Corso --

it's in many libraries and book stores --

came out a few years ago -- and many links to his comments on internet --

and to articles about his experiences.



Btw, the original hard cover book had a foreword by Sen. Strom Thurmond who related

that he had long known about the truths of Roswell -- including alien bodies ---

but ascribed to them a warmongering nature which we haven't actually seen.

Sometime after the book was published, his office denied that he had properly understood

the intentions of the authors -- and didn't intend to say what he did say!

[zappaman]

108. the roswell BS again?

:rofl:

[Deep13]

99. So why is this our headline story? nt

[Chiyo-chichi]

123. "Grey rights:" a timely topic.

[Deep13]

124. I respect Bender's right to kill all humans.

[mikeytherat]

129. Bender: Kill all humans! Kill all humans! Kill all humans!

Fry: Bender! Wake up!
Bender: Oh, man! I was having the most wonderful dream - I think you were in it.

mikey_the_rat

[chrisau214]

109. And Another Thing

Another thing that Churchill covered up was the fact that for a brief period of time he had an actual Dalek working for him.

[Deep13]

125. I know!

And he put ray guns on those orbital Spitfires!

[Jim Sagle]

111. Jeff Rense, is that you?

[LongTomH]

113. I remain a 'sympathetic skeptic' on the subject of UFO's

.........and most things. I got the 'sympathetic skeptic' phrase from Col. James Oberg, USAF Ret. Jim Oberg is a leading aerospace expert and UFO debunker. He took on the 'UFOs seen by our astronauts' myth in his book: UFOs and Outer Space Mysteries.

'Sympathetic Skeptic' merely means that we're willing to look at any evidence; but, we will demand a lot more evidence than has been presented to date, before we will accept the idea of extra-terrestrial visitors.

On the other hand, I'm aware that there are scientists with good credentials who are willing to take another look at the possibility that UFO's are real. Check out the UFO Skeptic site run by Dr. Bernard Haisch. It think you'll find him more to the 'sympathetic' than the skeptical end of the spectrum; although he, and the other writers on the site, stop short of accepting the 'Extraterrestrial Hypothesis' uncritically.

And on the third hand............

Jeff Foxworthy has said: "You might be a redneck if.........the UFO hotline limits you to three calls a day."

[DeSwiss]

120. K&R!!!

"The reason apparently was because Churchill believed it would cause mass panic and it would shatter people's religious views."


Which should clarify for any doubters out there, what the true role is of religion: One of control.

[athenasatanjesus]

122. This story is clearly a promotion of starcraft 2 nt

[superconnected]

126. If topics like this start being regulars on the front of DU, I'm outta here.

I know, this is one incident and it's historical, but it still makes the place look like some trash rag.

[whatchamacallit]

131. Hey everybody stop posting stuff superconnected doesn't like, he might leave!

and then where would we be? :eyes: