Opponents of Prop 19 (legalized cannabis) rely on fear, not facts

[RainDog]

http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_15669701

Dianne Feinstein should be ashamed of herself for spreading right wing lies about the impact of legal cannabis. She apparently thinks that the laws that exist are not enough to deal with cannabis, even tho they are already in place to deal with other substances that are limited to use by adults with restrictions on activities such as driving.

She claims legalized will make people "less safe."

How will taking away the reason for drug cartels to set up business in the U.S. make us less safe? What precedent do we have in history that illustrates this point? We, in fact, have an example from history that illustrates she is lying. Prohibition created criminal gangs. The repeal of prohibition moved alcohol to a regulated industry that created safer production standards, safer access and less crime.

As far as health issues:

According to a 2009 report by the Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse, health-related costs per user are eight times higher for drinkers than they are for those who use cannabis and are more than 40 times higher for tobacco smokers. It states, "In terms of (health-related) costs per user: tobacco-related health costs are over $800 per user, alcohol-related health costs are much lower at $165 per user, and cannabis-related health costs are the lowest at $20 per user."

A previous analysis commissioned by the World Health Organization agreed, stating, "On existing patterns of use, cannabis poses a much less serious public health problem than is currently posed by alcohol and tobacco in Western societies."

So then why are we so worried about adults consuming it in the privacy of their own home?

California lawmakers criminalized the possession and use of marijuana in 1913 -- a full 24 years before the federal government enacted prohibition. Yet right now in California, the federal government reports that one out of 10 people annually use marijuana and together consume about 1.2 million pounds of it. Self-evidently, cannabis is here to stay. Let's address this reality and stop ceding control of this market to unregulated, untaxed criminal enterprises and put it in the hands of licensed businesses. Proposition 19 is a first step in this direction.

If you live in California, please help get out the vote for Prop. 19. Your actions could change the course of American history for the better. Help create a better world.

[RadiationTherapy]

1. What happens to people in jail for possession if this law is enacted?

[RainDog]

3. I don't know

I saw this from the norml site, tho-

Washington, DC: The US House of Representatives last week passed legislation, HR 5143, that seeks to establish a national commission to "undertake a comprehensive review of the criminal justice system."

House Bill 5143 is the companion bill to Senate Bill 714, the National Criminal Justice Commission Act of 2010. It would establish a blue-ribbon commission to assess US criminal justice policies and make recommendations to Congress.

"Today our prison population is expanding at an alarming rate, with costs to the taxpayers that are unsustainable," House sponsor William Delahunt (D-MA) said in a prepared statement. "(This) bill ... will assess the current crisis, reverse these disturbing trends and help save taxpayer money."

The companion version of the bill awaits action from the full Senate.

Commenting on the House bill's passage, NORML Legal Counsel Keith Stroup said: "It's been decades since a federally appointed commission has taken an objective look at American criminal justice policies, and it's been nearly 40 years since federal lawmakers have undertaken a critical examination of U.S. drug policy. This vote recognizes that changes to America's 'do drugs; do time' mentality are necessary and long overdue."

That doesn't answer your question, but I hope this action by the House can look at the issue of people in jail for simple possession. That reality is a crime that far outweighs the reason for arrest.

[liberal N proud]

2. Fear always works better than facts

When you have the M$M, you can use fear without ever talking about fact because the dummies in front of the TV will never check the facts.

[RainDog]

5. latest Rasmussen Poll - 75% of ALL Americans approve of medical marijuana

and want to make it legal and available to patients.

The reason for this move to saner positions on the part of Americans overall is because California legalized medicinal use in 1996. This is why it this issue in California matters for the rest of the nation, too - it can and will lead to saner approaches across the nation, as we've seen with medical marijuana.

And, as I noted in another post, the drug war ads of the 1990s were counterproductive - kids were more likely to want to try marijuana because of the anti-drug ads. So, the fear doesn't seem to work. Regulation, actual experience in other nations has shown, does work - and keeps people away from more harmful substances. How often do you see someone trying to peddle alcohol to a teenager outside a liquor store? How often do you see someone at a liquor store also offer some illegal substance in addition to a bottle of wine?

[CrownPrinceBandar]

8. What do they say?....

"If you have to explain, you've already lost".

[Blue Owl]

4. From now on I shall refer to her as DuFu

I trust you can figure out what that stands for.

[frylock]

7. yes..

and yes. :thumbsup:

[Webster Green]

6. I heard one of the opponent's spokesmen on Thom Hartman's show.

He sounded like he came from the '30s reefer madness era. His arguments were absurd.

[court jester]

9. questions

Overheard:

19 only legalizes Less than 1 ounce, an amount already decriminalized

anyone without a med card with 29 grams of pot will still be subject to LEO

19 prohibits private sales- great if you want to corner the market and you already own a dispensary

Of course we'll be told these irritants will be "fixed" like NAFTA and the Health Insurance Ripoff

and one more thing: only 5 x 5 sqft per land parcel. So if you have 20 acres and 4 roomates you get one sqft to grow your "legal" cannabis on.

Interesting. Maybe not everything it's made out to be.

[RainDog]

12. Russ Belville has done a line-by-line analysis of Prop 19

it's here:

http://stash.norml.org/californias-prop-19-a-word-for-word-analysis#more-17744


Even under Prop 215, the adult cannabis consumer is guilty of being a criminal unless proven innocent as a patient. When Prop 19 passes, the adult cannabis consumer is considered innocent until proven guilty. It is a complete game changer for law enforcement, because:

* the smell of marijuana on your person is no longer probable cause to search you;
* that joint in your pocket means nothing;
* the seizure of stems, leaves, and seeds from your trash is irrelevant;
* a couple of baggies with weed residue in them are just garbage;
* the sight of that bong on your table visible through the kitchen window isn’t a “welcome” mat for a police search;
* your utility bills raising a bit for water and lights don’t matter;
* your neighbors smelling skunky plants is just a nuisance, not the source for an “anonymous tip”;
* receipts for lights, soil, fertilizer, ballasts, trimmers, and stuff are meaningless;
* infrared signatures of your home aren’t evidence of anything;
* marijuana sniffing K-9 units are out of a job; and
* pre-employment drug testing programs become harder for businesses to maintain for cannabis.

Basically, one of the simplest tools law enforcement has for harassing cannabis consumers – the sight and smell of cannabis and paraphernalia – is no longer in the tool belt. As long as you’re an adult, keep your grow in a 5′x5′ area, don’t smoke in front of kids, and don’t leave the house with over an ounce, you are free from police harassment.

the above is from here: http://blog.norml.org/2010/07/19/californias-prop-19-a-word-for-word-analysis/

[RainDog]

13. here are my own responses to what you overheard

by reading Belville's line-by-line commentary - a person may not walk around with more than an ounce of pot. however, a person may grow pot and store that pot at home and will not be in violation of the law. The more than an ounce limit is outside of the privacy of one's residence.

No driving, operating motorized equipment, etc. - I have no problem with that. We have public safety standards for a reason - to provide a framework for maintaining safety on the roads, waters and workplaces.

Private sales are not permitted - but private grows are - and you can give an ounce to someone else. if you want to sell, you have to be regulated and licensed - just like the alcohol industry. if you want to make wine at home, you can also do that and give it away. you cannot take your homemade wine to the liquor store and sell it, tho. You may find someone willing to buy your homemade wine, but most people prefer to buy something that is grown, harvested and bottled by professionals in that industry.

Why is this a problem for you? To operate any business in any state you are required to have a business license. This is just the way the world works. You have to account for your business practices. That's the way the legal, adult world works.

in order to move cannabis from an illegal to a legal industry - those who sell it will need to be able to provide information about their product - personally, I don't see this as a bad thing.

as Belville notes - the issue of selling cannabis is not dealt with at the state level - which keeps the state from having a conflict with the federal law. at the local level, cities can set policies for dealing with sales. "Private" sales mean anyone who is not a public employee - so private sales will certainly be allowed - just not unregulated ones.

If you have four roommates and a 5x5 sq ft land parcel, you can grow 25 square feet of cannabis. If you have an indoor set up, you can grow that amount every few months. If you grow outdoors, it takes longer. If you want to grow that to sell, you have to go through the legal processes to do so, just like any other business.

Honestly, I don't see how this is a problem unless you think that someone should be able to grow and sell cannabis without regulation - which is not allowed for any substance that is consumed that I can think of. We have regulations to protect consumers. I have no problem with that. Farmers Markets have standards and inspections for fruits that are sold - properties have to pass inspections - they have to meet health standards and not have diseases on plants that will destroy other fruit crops - fungus, etc. I have no problem with that.

That's what it means to make cannabis legal and available for purchase in the marketplace - there will be standards to provide purchasers with information, inspections to insure healthy growing conditions and professionals will most certainly have an edge over hobbyists in the marketplace - which, again, is how it always is with any product that is produced for sale in a large market, such as a state, even if the state is not, in this case, directly setting standards for sales - localities will get to make those decisions.

[robertpaulsen]

10. Unfortunately, Prop 8 proved fearmongering works in California.

The passage of this proposition is not a safe bet by a long shot, there's still a lot of educating that needs to be done.

[RainDog]

14. No, there is NO guarantee that Prop 19 will pass

there is no overwhelming majority for total legalization at this time - unlike medical marijuana.

That's why it's so important for people in CA to help register voters - voters under the age of 34, iirc, are 70% in favor of legalization - so if you want to help make Prop 19 happen, one of the best ways is to help to get out the voters in this age bracket.

It also helps to talk about the reality of the amount of money that will be SAVED by legalization - savings in law enforcement, prisons (the prison guard union is, obviously, not the biggest fan of this), in the loss of work for someone imprisoned. Legalization will allow law enforcement to focus on other crimes - when they focus on marijuana prohibition - they take away focus from other, important areas of law enforcement.

Legalization will drive the drug cartels out of biz in CA. b/c they will not be able to compete on price and quality.

Tax revenues from sales will help the state. Even tho legalization will, in all likelihood, drive down the price of cannabis, those who don't have an evening pipe will be free to do so in the privacy of their homes. There will also most likely be sales to people outside of CA - those people's states will have to deal with that issue in their states.

The increase in tourism dollars will go to a variety of businesses.

[Starry Messenger]

11. k & r