Fidel Castro will be delivering an important speech today

[malaise]

As one of the leading statesmen in the world who has accurately assessed developments on planet earth for decades, I think his speech should be carried live across the globe.

Why are only discredited Western views and propaganda given airplay.

Who is carrying Fidel's address to the Cuban parliament. I certainly want to watch live.

[blindpig]

1. A wise man.

Guess I'll have to wait for the Granma translation.

Thanks for the heads up.

[davidinalameda]

2. leading statesmen?

:rofl:

communist dictators are now leading statesmen?

[malaise]

3. Guess that title should be saved for imperialists

and war criminals

[davidinalameda]

4. imperialists?

boogeyman much

the Soviet Union, which propped up the Castro dictatorship for decades, was one of the largest imperialistic countries in history

and let's not forget China as well

[malaise]

6. Remember when you're pointing one finger at others

three are staring at you.

Fidel Castro is a respected statesman in most countries on this planet - deal with that fact. I maintain that his speech should be covered globally.

[davidinalameda]

8. most countries?

which ones?

[malaise]

11. All of Latin America and the Caribbean and

most of Europe - add China.

For the record the Brits went to Cuba to copy the Cuban medical program.
Cuba has done more for our hemisphere in terms of health care than any other country in history and without the Public Relations BS.

You'll learn when ever Fidel dies. He put his people first - check the UN Human Development Stats in terms of the stats that matter - infant mortality, education, health care and education. And the Cuban people achieved that with a bad-minded embargo from those who say obey me or starve.

[davidinalameda]

106. he put his people first

unless he was throwing them in jail for their political beliefs

[Boojatta]

132. "a bad-minded embargo from those who say obey me or starve."

There is a notion that the USA consumes a much larger percentage of world output than its percentage of world population, and that the USA must therefore be acquiring what is consumes through unfair terms of trade that exploit trading partners. Surely it's better to not be exploited, isn't it? By refusing to allow its citizens to trade with Cuba, isn't the US government, without realizing it, doing Cuba a favor?

[EFerrari]

138. Except insofar as it prohibits its trading partners from also trading with Cuba --

there is that excess of harm.

Plus, the US loses more in actual dollars than Cuba does in lost sales.

[EFerrari]

5. No kidding. nt

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WinkyDink]

16. It's not 1962 any more. Are you seriously, in this world economy, a capitalism apologist?

[davidinalameda]

108. sure why not

we've seen how well totalitarian socialism/communism has worked and the millions, if not billions, of people who have died at the hand of these governments

[EFerrari]

17. It must be terrible to suffer from Cold War Tourette's.

[rug]

63. Here, you dropped this.

[davidinalameda]

110. so I'm a Bircher for opposing communists?

that's interesting

:shrug:

[Better Believe It]

89. Oh look! Do you also think Nelson Mandela is a "communist apologist"?

[malaise]

130. The Dick thinks he should be in prison

:puke:

[EFerrari]

7. What would you call the single most successful resister

of American domination in the Western hemisphere? That's right -- you call him a "communist dictator".

LOL

[davidinalameda]

10. and he is a communist dictator

you have proof otherwise?

[malaise]

13. He hasn't invaded and occupied

any one else's country and killed a million of their citizens has he - don't you just love democrats at home and occupiers overseas.

[davidinalameda]

104. that doesn't make him a communist dictator?

I don't quite understand your apparent lack of logic

[EFerrari]

20. Psssssssst, Fidel stepped down years ago. n/t

[davidinalameda]

113. does that change the fact that he was a dictator?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

127. Casto did what he had to do, just as American presidents

have led the nation into periods of what is called "exception" when there is a perceived threat against this country.

And, he won. We really, really, need to get over it. It's embarrassing already.

lol

[davidinalameda]

135. what he HAD to do?

imprison and kill political prisoners?

good thing you weren't around when Stalin was alive

would have loved to see your defense of him

[EFerrari]

136. Sure because Castro and Stalin are exactly the same!!!!!!!!11111111

lol

[H2O Man]

26. And he has

a beard.

[malaise]

32. Here's the speech

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-10903048

Fidel Castro, the former Cuban leader, has delivered his first speech to the national assembly since resigning over ill health four years ago.

The chamber erupted into applause at the sight of Mr Castro, dressed in his familiar olive-green fatigues but without his comandante's insignia.

In an uncharacteristically short speech of just over 10 minutes, he urged the US not to allow a war with Iran.

The former president warned of the risk of a "nuclear holocaust" involving the US and Iran.

He accused the US of planning to attack Iran and North Korea and urged President Barack Obama to prevent such a conflict happening.

Iran has been accused by the US and others of seeking to develop illegal nuclear weapons - an allegation Tehran denies.

"If war breaks out the current social order will suddenly disappear and the price will be infinitely greater," Mr Castro said.

Asked by one deputy if Mr Obama would be capable of starting a nuclear war, Mr Castro replied: "No, not if we persuade him not to."
--------------------
Thank you Fidel - no more war.

[TBF]

70. Thanks Malaise. K&R nt

[G_j]

87. thanks!

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/08/05

Published on Thursday, August 5, 2010 by CommonDreams.org

The Next War

by Robert Koehler

"I'm going to be killing people. I'm actually joining the Marines and will be doing this in real life."

<snip>

With Adm. Mike Mullen's ambivalent acknowledgment several days ago on "Meet the Press" that the military indeed has a plan for invading Iran, to be used if necessary, "the next war" has begun, suddenly, to take shape in the media. No public input needed! We're the spectators here. Stay tuned. We'll bring it to you live.

Missing, of course -- of course! -- in any discussion of a no-nonsense military solution to Iran's nuclear intransigence is: A) the least reflection on the disastrous quagmire of the current wars, which were sold as quick-strike operations to eliminate immediate threats (which, in the case of Iraq, turned out not to exist); B) any assessment of the damage we have done, to the Afghans, the Iraqis or ourselves, or of the multi-trillion-dollar cost of these debacles; C) any reflection on our own hypocrisy (we have 5,113 nuclear warheads; our allies, including Israel, have as much as a thousand more), or a consideration of the logic of Iran's own self-protective instincts, i.e., that if they actually possess a bomb the U.S. is far less likely to invade their country.

Instead what we get is the grown-up, Ph.D.-level equivalent of the naïve 18-year-old Marine wannabe playing war at the Army's entrapment, I mean recruitment, center in Philadelphia. Effective, targeted strikes! This'll be awesome!

But more worrisome to me than neocon op-eds is the sense of inevitability -- indeed, reverence -- that accompanies "impartial" mainstream reportage of war, especially the war that hasn't been fought yet. The unspoken understanding is that war is a high-level, classified decision made in the public's interest but utterly divorced from its input or wishes.

In an essay published on AlterNet in March, Frank Joyce wrote: "Thanks to the superseding power of the transnational corporation, democracy ‘peaked' in the United States some time ago."


..more..

[EFerrari]

93. Thanks, hermanita.

:hi:

[Radical Activist]

39. Yes, he is.

Whatever his reputation in the US, he's considered a major world leader who has had tremendous impact on other nations. The US could learn some lessons by studying why that is.

[Better Believe It]

83. Nothing like reading old, tied and worn out cold war rhetoric

[lunatica]

12. All seriousness aside

He's been known to speechify for 5 hours on end. I don't think I'd make it through without a snooze or two.

[Imajika]

14. Hey, maybe it will go on 5 hours....

...and he can explain why once the Soviet subsidies stopped his already impoverished country slid even further down the gutter!

Oh yeah, Cuba is now being forced to consider laying off like 20% of its government work force because the system is inefficient and wasteful, and plans to "reintroduce" more privatization to the their economy - out of sheer desperation.

So unless he is apologizing for forcing a discredited, failed economic system on his people, I don't think many folks are going to care what ole' Fidel has to say. Well, I guess his blathering multi-hour speeches could be used as a sleep aid.

[EFerrari]

21. You're out of touch. Castro is beloved in Cuba and his speeches

are read with interest and admiration all over the world. He has a first class intellect and is one of the shrewdest politicians alive today.

Lol, you gotta love American exceptionalism and its blinkers.

[Mudoria]

46. Yeah, you have to love the blinkers lol

[EFerrari]

55. You know the Berlin Wall is down and we are owned by China, right?

lol

[Better Believe It]

91. Cuba's economic system has failed and the U.S. system is booming!

If you're a Wall Street bankster.

[inna]

128. omg.

:facepalm:

unreal.

[cynatnite]

15. I'll take Human Rights Watch's word about Fidel Castro...

For almost five decades, Cuba has restricted nearly all avenues of political dissent. Cuban citizens have been systematically deprived of their fundamental rights to free expression, privacy, association, assembly, movement, and due process of law. Tactics for enforcing political conformity have included police warnings, surveillance, short-term detentions, house arrests, travel restrictions, criminal prosecutions, and politically motivated dismissals from employment.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/02/18/cuba-fidel-castro-s-abusive-machinery-remains-intact

Now, it is obvious some things have changed and others have not. I think punishing Cuba as we have been hasn't done anyone a bit of good. Encouraging them and talking to them is the best way to help improve some of the conditions. Grant it, in some ways it is better. They do have a pretty good health care system there.

But I'm not going to ignore the fact that Cuba is a communist country under the control of a dictator. I most certainly would never call Fidel Castro a leading statesman.

[EFerrari]

18. The HRW section head for Latin America began his career

as an apologist for Pinochet. He's hurt HRW reputation around the world and shouldn't be trusted to produce an accurate word about the region.

Btw, Fidel Castro stepped down years ago but he still is one of the most important Latin American leaders of the 20th century.

ETA: Jose Miguel Vivanco.

More Than 100 Latin America Experts Question Human Rights Watch's Venezuela Report

In an open letter to the Board of Directors of Human Rights Watch, over 100 experts on Latin America criticized the organization's recent report on Venezuela, A Decade Under Chávez: Political Intolerance and Lost Opportunities for Advancing Human Rights in Venezuela, saying that it "does not meet even the most minimal standards of scholarship, impartiality, accuracy, or credibility." The signers include leading academic specialists from universities in the United States, including Harvard, Johns Hopkins, and a number of state universities, and academic institutions in Argentina, Australia, Brazil, México, the U.K., Venezuela and other countries.

(Letter at link)

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4051

I can't believe it's not Human Rights Watch!

http://www.opednews.com/articles/I-Can-t-Believe-It-s-Not-H-by-Elizabeth-Ferrari-080922-709.html

[malaise]

27. You know when I realized that there are lots of people

in America who know very little about our hemisphere - when Chavez gave Obama Galeano's 1973 classic and people had never heard about Open Veins. The media, politicians et al never heard of one of the most important books on Latin America.

[EFerrari]

30. I think it's purposeful. Easier to manipulate perception.

Do you think someone is recording these speeches? I'd love to hear them. He doesn't have much time left and amazingly, his mind is still the sharpest.

[malaise]

44. I'm searching for today's full speech

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-10903048


Prensa Latina should have most of his speeches.

http://www.prensa-latina.cu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=211495&Itemid=1

[cynatnite]

28. Thanks for the info. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

19. The US has the highest rate of imprisonment in the world & targets people for assassination

all over the world.

The press blatantly lies to the public because it's owned by the billionaires that actually run the country, and the world, and you're babbling about castro.

[malaise]

23. It sure is comical

What a planet

[cynatnite]

31. I wasn't trying to defend the US...

Castro, when he was in power, was a dictator, and his brother might be a bit better now. I don't think they're pinnacles of greatness by any stretch of the imagination. Cuba's press is state owned, so I don't think they can be relied on as being credible.

I guess I'm surprised at seeing defenders of the likes of Castro here at DU of all places.

[malaise]

22. What are the human rights people saying about declaring war on

the drugs that one race use so that their young males can be sent to private and state prisons for profit. What about dissent at the RNC convention - how were those folks treated?
Just take a look at how the RWs deal with the capitalist Obama and then let's discuss dissent. You have an opposition party that supported war crimes threatening to hold investigations of the sitting president if they gain power. They no longer accept the results of a democratic election.

[EFerrari]

25. While Vivanco at HRW was tap dancing on progessive leaders in LatAm

GEORGE BUSH the unelected torture president was sitting in the White House. :crazy:

[H2O Man]

29. But Castro has

a beard! Do you have PROOF otherwise?

Dick Cheney has no beard. Case closed.

[EFerrari]

33. LOL.

[cynatnite]

34. What does all this have to do with Cuba?

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

38. The RW uses the same tactics on Obama as they do on Cuba,

Venezuela, Honduras, Bolivia, Ecuador, on any LatAm country with progressive leaders. Sometimes even from the very same propaganda mills. Same $$$, same media thuggery.

[cynatnite]

41. The press is state owned in Cuba...

The last label I'd give Castro is progressive.

[H2O Man]

45. The press

is owned by corporations in the US. Those same corporations are, at very least, highly influential in all things political and social in our country.

[cynatnite]

47. True, but they are not state owned...

besides, if Castro's press gets the equivalent of KO or Rachel Maddow, then I might be convinced of the govt's good intentions.

[EFerrari]

51. The fact that the Castros didn't hand Cuba over to us or to the Soviets

when it was demanded of them should be a good enough indication. They could have been insanely comfortable, protected and wealthy by now instead of going through all these years of having targets on their backs. Cuba could have been poor Haiti.

[malaise]

57. Cuba could have been poor Haiti.

Absolutely

[cynatnite]

58. They did hand Cuba over to the Soviets...

Castro was the Soviet's best friend for years and years. They lost a lot when the USSR's style of government crumbled and became Russia.

[EFerrari]

60. Well, no, they didn't. They made a strategic alliance with the Soviets

which is a different matter altogether.

[cynatnite]

64. I think that point is debatable...

Cuba relied heavily on the Soviet Union for years for just about everything. I remember Cuba was called a "client-privileged" state of the Soviets one time. When the Soviet Union as we knew it fell, people hoped that Castro would change how his government operated and make the country more open out of necessity for his people. They needed wheat and other products, IIRC. That never happened. Castro remained obstinate and remained in power. Of course, you'd probably say that I was brainwashed by propaganda or whatever.

Oh, and Castro's government only allows one political party. Just one.

[EFerrari]

67. The Soviets never government Cuba. That is not debatable. n/t

[cynatnite]

69. Cuba had a socialist republic government...you know where that came from, don't you? n/t

[EFerrari]

73. The first sweep by communists in this hemisphere was not in Cuba.

It was in El Salvador in 1932. And instead of seating the winners of the election, the US-backed dictator slaughtered about a fifth of the population there and nearly wiped out the indigenous people.

And I assure you, the people of Latin America are perfectly capable of thinking on their own and arranging their own governments without the instruction of white Europeans.

[cynatnite]

75. I'm saying that Castro formed a government to the Soviet Union's liking...

He needed them and the Soviets needed Cuba.

[EFerrari]

82. Castro could run circles around Khrushchev any day of the week.

And again, an alliance isn't servitude. That the Soviets "liked" it doesn't mean they formed it.

[cynatnite]

84. I didn't say they formed it...I said Castro formed it...

because of them.

[EFerrari]

101. And that's simply untrue. The movement had its own politics

even before our government tried to hold it up and they went to the Soviets.

[H2O Man]

107. The history

of Castro etc in Cuba, including relations with the US pre-take over, is well documented. I suspect that even many people I consider decent are ignorant when it comes to this.

[cynatnite]

111. Bay of Pigs come to mind. n/t

[EFerrari]

116. We hear surprisingly little news and learn less history

about Latin America. It has to be kept blank if it's to serve as a projection screen for American power. A little like this "vast empty continent" the Founding Fathers populated with their benevolent seed.

[H2O Man]

119. A few years ago,

my older son's SO asked me if I had any books on Central/South American history. She was a college student, and needed some sources for one of her classes. A large section of my library is composed of such books. It was an eye-opening experience for her.

A few months back, she returned the last of the books that she had borrowed.

[cynatnite]

109. Fidel came to power in 1959...

He announced the government would be socialist republic in 1961. This was after he made a deal with the Soviet Union. What also helped it along in this direction was the failed Bay of Pigs invasion. You can thank the CIA for that one. In a way, the US's actions has made Cuba the Communistic country it is today.

[EFerrari]

118. I agree with you that defending against CIA et al

has shaped Cuba, although to be fair, the revolution was in itself socialist and anti-capitalist. Remember, the Castros didn't up and decide to take over the island one morning. It was years and years of struggling against a terrible, brutal, capitalistic regime that started the whole thing.

[cynatnite]

122. I know a bit about the history...

Batista was a corrupt dictator who did business with the mob. Castro was probably better in many ways, but I'm not blind to everything his government has done.

Anyway, this has been a really great discussion and I have to go. Thanks so much. It's not often I get to have one of these. :hi:

[EFerrari]

124. We did pretty good!

Thanks. :hi:

[H2O Man]

125. And thank you!

I've enjoyed this discussion, too.

Have a great weekend.

[JVS]

81. Per capita GDP (PPP): Communist Cuba $9,700 Capitalist El Salvador: $7,100

And remember, folks, the distribution in Cuba is likely to be more even due to their egalitarian politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

[EFerrari]

48. You should be much more concerned about the US media

who has only given you a cartoon all these years. That's how they make Obama look to their base, too.

[cynatnite]

50. The OP is entirely about Cuba...

I expressed my opinion about Castro and the government. Suddenly, all anyone wants to talk about then is the horrible US media and the horrible US. All because I make a valid point that some don't like.

I really don't get the logic here.

Besides, I know plenty about corporate media here in the US...just like I know plenty about the state-owned media in Cuba.

If ANY country is to be truly free (that includes Cuba, too) the media has to be able to report the news and inform the public freely without pressure...whether it's favorable or critical of the government. The US and Cuba press do not have this freedom, but the US has FAR more freedom than Cuba's. KO and Rachel Maddow are prime examples of that.

[EFerrari]

52. The logic is that your "valid point" is conditioned by fifty years

of US government propaganda. While it is true that Cuba's press is state controlled, it is also true that our government's war against Cuba is ongoing. Do you remember that just a couple of months ago, a CIA contractor was caught there handing out blackberries, I think it was. The context isn't, are we more free than Cuba but rather, the lack of accountability of the United States and the ongoing media campaign against a peaceful nation that shares our hemisphere.

[cynatnite]

62. Well, I don't think we're at war with Cuba right now...

I gave you an article from Amnesty International which is far from US propaganda. I would bet that you would probably quote "propaganda" with every article I post about Castro's treatment of journalists who are critical. It wouldn't matter where it came from.

We are more free than Cuba. The fact that we can sit here and be critical of our own government with no fear of reprisal tells me that much. In Cuba, that is not the case. You can try and argue otherwise, but the facts are against you.

[EFerrari]

65. You are mistaken. The US war on the Cuban revolution is ongoing.

DC will never accept an independent nation there. And if anything, it's been ramped up under the new administration, much to the disappointment of many people who track this topic.

U.S. contractor worked for "secret services": Cuba

By Nelson Acosta
HAVANA | Wed Jan 6, 2010 4:02pm EST

HAVANA (Reuters) - A U.S. contractor detained last month in Cuba for distributing satellite communications equipment to dissidents worked for American "secret services" and is being investigated, a top Cuban official said on Wednesday

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6054ZW20100106


And, as I've already said repetitively, there is plenty of dissent in Cuba. The real question is, what would Cuba have been today without the constant having to protect itself from the terrorists in Miami or the incursions on its sovereignty by the US government.

[cynatnite]

68. Oh, you mean it in a hyperbolic sense...

That's debatable, too, you know.

And no, there isn't plenty of dissent in Cuba. I posted a link for your continued assertion elsewhere.

[EFerrari]

72. It's not hyperbole when you are funneling funds into the country

to destabilize it and when you have an economic noose around its neck.

[cynatnite]

76. Funneling funds to destabilize is not war...

It is hyperbole if you're making it into something it is not for dramatic purposes.

[EFerrari]

85. The United States continues to be in a cold war with democracy

in Latin America. That is not hyperbole. When it comes out of your taxes dollar, it's not a metaphor.

[cynatnite]

92. Oh, a cold war...well, you should've said so in the first place...

I can agree with that.

[EFerrari]

105. I was surprised to learn about the terrorist actions against Cuba

that have been planned and funded out of Miami with the blessing of the feds. It's unreal that an American city can be used that way. Cuba could declare war on us by the same logic we invaded Afghanistan.

[malaise]

42. The double standards

That's all. Fidel is one of the few in this hemisphere who has left his population better off in terms of every important index. Flaws - sure, refusal to tolerate dissent - sure but when push comes to shove he did way more for his peeps that the pro-US dictators. His population is healthy and educated - they will survive.

[cynatnite]

43. But they can't think or criticize...his population were taught to follow...

Cuba has a top rated health care system and in some ways they do better than here, but there is no freedom to dissent, no freedom of press, and education is severely limited there. There are a lot of drawbacks despite the positives.

[EFerrari]

49. You might want to read around. The Fake Ladies in White

were doing weekly protests in and around the church that is supposedly also not allowed to hold services because there's no freedom of religion, either. The Cuba narrative out of the State Department is patently falsified. There are people here at DU who know much more about Cuba than I do but even I can see the big gaping rifts in the story we're told and the story that Cubans tell.

[cynatnite]

54. So they have freedom of the press in Cuba? Freedom of Expression?

I just read an article from Amnesty International about Cuba's treatment of journalists who were critical of the government.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/cuba-urged-respect-press-freedom-repression-journalists-intensifies-2010-04-30

I have no problems in acknowledging the good Castro has done, but I'm not sticking my head in the sand when it comes to the negatives either.

[EFerrari]

59. The media is state owned. But that doesn't mean there is no dissent

or that education is limited. I don't think most school kids in Cuba think evolution is a theory on par with creationism, for example, as they do here. The Cuban government doesn't see their school system as a revenue stream for their cronies are Arne Duncan does and they don't burden their college students with crushing debt as we do.

Sure, there are negatives in Cuba, as there are anywhere. But Cuba's are consistently distorted and oversold up here. It's just what our government does.

[cynatnite]

66. Here is something about Cuba's squashing of dissent...

Cuban Government Continues to Stifle Dissent, Despite Assertions that Freedom of Expression is Respected, Says New Amnesty International Report

http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGUSA20100630001&lang=e

Of course, you'll probably say it's propaganda despite Amnesty International's reputation.

[EFerrari]

71. Actually, iirc, after that report came out, a number of prisoners

were allowed to seek asylum in Spain. I think some of them are still deciding whether to go there or come here.

Considering that we've held journalists for years at places like Gitmo, let alone bombing Al Jazeera's offices twice, not to mention the Palestine Hotel, we have not an inch of moral high ground on the issue of protecting journalists. And that's not even taking into account the money we pay the Pentagon and other government agencies to plant their paid shills in the media or the fact that the FBI and the Pentagon has whole units devoted to surveiling dangerous activists like Howard Zinn.

I actually do take Amnesty's report seriously, just not in a vacuum.

[cynatnite]

74. Are we talking about Cuba or not?

I'm not sure why you keep going outside the scope of the discussion. It doesn't disprove anything and I'm not trying to whitewash the US government's history of dealing with reporters.

Just the other day the Pentagon has barred the Rolling Stone reporter who did the story on McCrystal from being imbedded. It was a retaliation and one form of attempting to control the press.

Another way of stifling dissent is to get rid of the dissenters. Shipping them out of the country was one option. Now, that you can take however you like. I choose to view it as a way of not allowing dissent and opposition.

[EFerrari]

88. You can't talk about Cuba in a vacuum.

That would be like talking about Mexico without noting that it borders the United States.

I know it's not easy to be told or to realize that the United States has rarely if ever acted in good faith in Latin America. That wasn't what I was taught as a child either, not as a child and not by my immigrant Latin American family. Unfortunately, it happens to be true and it continues to be true.

[cynatnite]

95. I'm not trying to talk about it in a vacuum...

In fact, I've referred to the US as well. You threw me for a loop when we're discussing Cuba and then suddenly jumped elsewhere. It was tough to follow where you were going. My apologies.

I've never said that US acted in good faith nor have I even tried to whitewash the US's actions no matter where. The US has a history that should't be ignored. At the same time, don't ignore Cuba's poor history or their current conditions either.

[H2O Man]

94. "stifling discussion"

Why would you be so strongly opposed to a full discussion?

[cynatnite]

96. Where did I say that? n/t

[H2O Man]

97. Post #74

[H2O Man]

99. Post #50.

[cynatnite]

103. I thought we were talking about Cuba...

I couldn't figure out why there was a need to mention other countries, specifically this one, rather than discuss the subject. That's all. I wasn't trying to stifle anything.

I'm not even opposed to it. If you read my other replies I've engaged in discussions that have strayed from the subject.

That's why I don't understand why anyone would think I was opposed...or even "strongly" for that matter.

[H2O Man]

77. There is no question

that there were serious restrictions on dissent in Cuba. None. However, it would be unfair to leave out a primary factor in the cause of these restrictions -- which was that, at various times, the US government, parts of the government, and other shady forces with close ties to and overlap with parts of the US government, were actively seeking to murder Castro and his associates, and to overthrow his government.

Does this make restrictions on a free press, etc, a "good thing"? Not for those who favor open discussion. But it played a role in keeping Castro alive, despite the fact our government made more attempts on his life than it did on any other foreign leader, and hence, kept his group in power.

One can only speculate -- this includes both you and I -- on how things may have been if the US government (and shadow government)had not invested significant resources in attempts to kill Castro and overthrow the Cuban government. The only administration that considered doing so, which curiously was the most actively involved in such plots, was that of JFK. And, of course, Ike could have taken a different approach, if his VP was not in charge of intel operations south of our border. But what is absolutely certain is that US policy played a large role in keeping Castro's rule restrictive in some ways.

[cynatnite]

79. I will never believe that there is a purpose for stifling dissent...

There is no justification as far as I'm concerned. There is no excuse for Cuba just as there would be none for the US to stifle dissent. We both know the US has a history of it.

Maybe the US played a role in it, but it doesn't excuse it.

[H2O Man]

86. Right: the US has

a long history of suppressing dissent. Even in the cases you mention as evidence of a "free press" -- Keith and Rachel -- they are not allowed to express many of their thoughts on their shows. One can pretend that is "different," because it is the corporate masters who make the decisions. But that is a sad form of denial. One need only think back to Chris Matthews's coverage of the VP's role in the Plame scandal, and the folks from the administration calling on MSNBC to silence him; this absolutely led to his being handcuffed by the corporate boss, who said, "He is, after all, the vice president."

[EFerrari]

90. I watched "Voices from the People's History of the United States" last night

and was confronted by this quotation:

"Historically, Americans have always been putting people behind walls. First there were the American Indians who were put on reservations, Africans in slavery, their lives on plantations, Chicanos doing migratory work, and the kinds of camps they lived in, and even too, the Chinese when they worked on the railroad camps where they were almost isolated, dispossessed people-disempowered."

Yuri Kochiyama

[cynatnite]

100. We don't know if Keith and Rachel are being surppressed...

That's speculative.

The fact remains that when it comes to the press in this country we have a lot and it's grown with the advent of the Internet. Corporate media is still beholden to their bottom line and that affects the integrity of the news they report. Keith and Rachel probably know they have to walk a fine line in order to remain on the air. Maybe they leaned it from Phil Donehue when he was bounced off the air. I don't know.

What I do know is that we have far more media in this country than Faux news, CNN, and MSNBC. That gives us a little more freedom, IMO.

[H2O Man]

102. "We" don't.

But I do. Of course, you are free to think I'm full of baloney. But that wouldn't change the well-documented example involving Mr. Matthews, would it?

[cynatnite]

112. Actually, I think back to Phil Donehue...

I remember when he was bounced for speaking his mind. That pissed me off. Still does to a degree.

[H2O Man]

114. That was before

my time, but it is a good example.

[cynatnite]

117. He had a show on MSNBC and was bounced for voicing his opinion...

It was mostly about run up to the Iraq war. His show was getting more popular and the suits got nervous when he voiced his opinion. They fired him. Phil is as liberal as they come and I hated seeing him go.

[H2O Man]

120. Yep.

I remember when it happened. While I only know of Phil D from watching his shows, I have always respected him.

[malaise]

53. You'd be surprised

Not because they don't do it our way means that they don't think. They are the community councils - it is they who can evacuate a city in a few hours before a hurricane; it is they who make the decisions - not the corporations.

[EFerrari]

61. The drowning of NOLA would have never happened in Cuba. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

56. what a whopper.

[Odin2005]

24. K&R

[HopeHoops]

35. What? Is he joining the teabaggers?

[EFerrari]

40. Those wackjobs in Miami were probably the prototype for the tea klanners.

Seriously. I think the right wing invented astro turf in Miami!

[dipsydoodle]

36. K & R

:thumbsup:

[MellowDem]

37. I want to see what Castro has to say...

about Russia's and China's changes economically to capitalism and his own government's willingness to privatize and experiment more and more with capitalism. That would be interesting.

[me b zola]

78. K&R

[proteus_lives]

80. So, you admire dictators.

So I take it you wouldn't mind if someone seized control of Jamaica for decades?

[EFerrari]

98. Colombia is our best friend in Latin America according to our government.

And yet, the largest mass grave in the region has just been found there, a massacre committed with our tax dollars by the Colombian government. Colombia is also only second to Sudan for internally displaced people due to government violence.

If you were really worried about freedom, you wouldn't be criticizing peaceful Cuba, you'd be talking about Colombia. Their last butcher leaves office today and the secretary of defense that oversaw all the butchery will now be president.

It's much easier to excoriate Castro than to take responsibility for our own inhumane behavior, which is ongoing.

ETA: Oh, and according to our government, the outgoing butcher and the incoming one were both "elected". At least they weren't "dictators".

[H2O Man]

115. So, you HATE APPLE PIE!!!!!!!!

I knew it!

[EFerrari]

121. LOL. Yeah, no matter how I look it,

an apple pie only reminds me of the orchards in Chaco Canyon. Go figure.

[H2O Man]

123. COMMIE!!!!!!

You no doubt believe in sharing those pies!

[EFerrari]

126. Hey man, they're not really my pies.

:shrug:

:rofl:

[malaise]

131. You're a treasure Waterman

:grouphug:

[proteus_lives]

133. And that excuses Castro's dictatorship, how?

And yes, Castro was as peaceful as a bunny rabbit. No mass executions, political prisoners, mercs in Africa or other nastiness.

He's a pure saint.

I assume his icon is right next to St. Chavez's in your living room, right?

[EFerrari]

137. Your post really speaks for itself. I can't hope to top it.

:)

[inna]

129. K&R

[trumad]

134. Well this Miami boy says---

Fuck Castro, his Brother and the rest of his communist henchmen.

[EFerrari]

139. Ah, yes, Miami. Where terror plots against Cuba are born.

Thanks.

[trumad]

141. Ahh yes Miami

where thousands of Cubans made their way to after Fidel took everything they owned and imprisoned those who dared question his dictatorship.

Fuck that POS and I hope he burns in hell.

[EFerrari]

143. Well, that is certainly one version of the story. nt

[trumad]

144. Really---it's a version that I witnessed with my own eyes.

Fuck Castro and may he burn in hell.

[inna]

140. it figures

[trumad]

142. You're so deep.

:eyes: