Resolved: Eating Animals Is Indefensible

[defendandprotect]

Resolved: Eating Animals Is Indefensible

Bruce Friedrich.Vice President, Policy
Posted: August 5, 2010 11:25 AM

EXCERPTS --

The topic is a hot one on college campuses, and the teams that have accepted have been rewarded by what they have consistently told us to be their largest event audiences ever. You can watch many of the debates online, if you're so inclined, but here is the crux of my argument:


Cruelty to animals is where I focus in these debates, because it's the issue that is most obvious: We are a nation of animal lovers -- according to a Gallup Poll last May, fully 97 percent of us support laws to protect animals from abuse -- and yet the animals with whom we come into contact most frequently are the animals we pay other people to abuse and kill for us.


Second, if we're eating meat, we are paying people to abuse animals in myriad ways that would violate anti-cruelty laws if these were dogs or cats rather than chickens and pigs. Animals are deprived of everything that is natural and important to them; they never breathe fresh air, raise their young, develop normal relationships with other animals, explore their surroundings, or do anything else they would do in nature. Artificial breeding practices are used so that animals will grow far more quickly than they would naturally, and their organs and limbs simply can't keep up. For example, chickens' upper bodies grow seven times as quickly as they did just 30 years ago, so these factory-farmed animals who live for fewer than two months (they're still chirping like infants when they're sent to slaughter) suffer from lung collapse, heart failure, and crippling leg deformities.


Similarly hideous conditions exist for all animals raised for food; rather than further detailing the horrid details, I will ask that you if you eat meat, you watch "Meet Your Meat," which is narrated by Alec Baldwin, and "Glass Walls," which is narrated by Sir Paul McCartney -- I generally show the opening two minutes of Meet Your Meat as a part of my 10 minute opening statement in college debates. Both videos offer a gruesome window into what we're supporting if we choose to eat chickens, pigs and other farmed animals. If we eat meat, we should at least ensure that we know what we're paying for.


Put another way: If we believe that people should try to protect the environment, OR we believe that we should try not to cause people to starve OR we oppose cruelty to animals, the only ethical diet is a vegetarian one.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-friedrich/resolved-eating-animals-i_b_671322.html?ir=Food#postComment



You can watch some of the debates here . . .

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22bruce+friedrich%22+debate&aq=f

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Animals are delicious.

Good enough of a defense for me.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

32. We should have to fight animals that have a 50 percent chance

of killing us if we want to eat them.

[Jamastiene]

56. Or a 100% chance.

There goes pork.

[RedCloud]

63. I think tigers would agree to that!

[northofdenali]

129. Dunno, Jama - you ever seen some wild boar?

And, technically, bear is "pork".......... black bear is delicious if he doesn't get you first. Grizzly is a run now, and hope he doesn't see you first!

[slampoet]

150. That never happens in nature.

Wolves eat Mice more than caribou

[placton]

122. they are tasty, aren' t they? n/t

[HuckleB]

209. +1

[LanternWaste]

231. I can never see that one coming...

I can never see that one coming every time it appears in every vegan thread. Very clever of you. Very clever indeed.

And quite unique too.






Like all jokes, it really does keep getting funnier and funnier on the fifteenth, sixteenth and seventeenth telling...

[zappaman]

2. MEET YOUR MEAT?

sounds like a guide to masturbation.
just kidding...seen it and it is good.
but, having a nice tri-tip tonight so I guess it effects everyone differently.

[flvegan]

3. Hot damn, I'm in early!

[superduperfarleft]

4. Shit, I'm tempted to just hide this thread now.

I'm enjoying my night far too much.

[flvegan]

23. I think I've already got a bingo in this thread.

DU never fails.

[superduperfarleft]

25. I love the bottom right-hand corner.

"Veganism turned me into a newt!"

[flvegan]

30. LOOK AT MY CANINES!

LIKE A LION, I AM!! NOM!

[Lorien]

89. WOW! Look at the resemblance!

UNCANNY!!!!!


Not like one of those pussy herbivores:



No dagger-like teeth AT ALL!

Oh, wait....

[flvegan]

93. You mock our lack of carnassials!!!!

Watch me render flesh and bone!

[Curmudgeoness]

35. Love it. Don't know which one I like better...

Vegetarian: Indian word for "bad hunter"....or I didn't climb to the top of the food chain to eat plants.

[BrklynLiberal]

44. +100

:thumbsup:

[Sheepshank]

76. I see nothing there about the length of intestines

therefore...I will eat meat.

[flvegan]

83. How many extra spaces should one add to a bingo card

to cover ever stupid, shitty excuse?

[truth2power]

187. Shitty excuse is right. n/t

[Pool Hall Ace]

193. That's it!! No free space for the omnivores.

[Stargazer09]

84. Love it! n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

124. I have something to say about the one just above the black dot.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawmanHasAPoint

[chatnoir]

205. YES! I'm so saving this!

[Warren DeMontague]

11. Nuts are vegan, right?

The OP would probably know.

[superduperfarleft]

15. Yep, they are. So are Van Allen belts. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. Really? But the Van Allen Belts are made out of the ghosts of dead astronauts.

I didn't think ectoplasm was vegan.

[superduperfarleft]

21. Dead astronauts? I thought that's where they deposited the passengers on the 9/11 planes

before they replaced the planes with holograms. I swear I read that somewhere.

[Canuckistanian]

51. I hear that nuts scream when you pull them off the tree

But our meat-impaired ears can't hear in that frequency range.

I read about it in a vegan listserv somewhere, back in the 90's.

[Jamastiene]

57. I would think the trees would scream while you are pulling their nuts off.

:evilgrin:

:P

:hide:

[Canuckistanian]

58. LOL

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Ignis]

80. NOT amused by this comment:

:D

[Odin2005]

91. BWAAAAAHAHAHA!

:rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

94. I find out that tree's been fucking around with some skeezy blogger named "sugarbabe"

I'll pull its nuts off with a rusty grapefruit spoon.

[Ignis]

145. Well, I hear she's been looking for a Sap Daddy.

:hide:

[Warren DeMontague]

185. That's my hip hop name.

Although I'm thinking of changing it to "Sappy".

[Ignis]

217. Fortunately for your budding rap career...

Many things rhyme with "hoom." :D

[AsahinaKimi]

196. Hey Apple! Hey!..Hey Apple...

[Warren DeMontague]

86. Dee's Nuts are DEFINITELY not Vegan.

"You like tapes, or CDs?"

[jmowreader]

85. You got vegan caramel on that? Pass some over.

[Occulus]

104. .

Exactly the sort of thread I had in mind for it.

:D

:thumbsup:

[flvegan]

106. You perfected it.

[lazarus]

5. I love vegans

many of the animals I eat are vegans. :evilgrin:

[MajorChode]

6. If I am what I eat...

Doesn't that make me a vegan?

[Ignis]

75. Obligate herbivores aren't vegans; they have no choice in their diet.

Opportunistic omnivores, on the other hand, can survive quite well on a vegan diet.

We have a choice. :dilemma:

[GreenStormCloud]

157. And I choose meat. I think I shall make a couple of nice pork roast sandwiches. N/T

[Ignis]

161. Thanks for the non sequitur. AND for putting me one step closer to Bingo!

:party:

[GreenStormCloud]

207. We were out of pork roast. I ate BBQ brisquet instead. N/T

[Ignis]

243. Try the fish. Brain food might help prevent responding to your own posts.

;)

[HuckleB]

210. +1

[Warren DeMontague]

7. People don't actually eat animals.

It's all faked, at a soundstage in Area 51.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. thread over

[HysteryDiagnosis]

33. Knit one, pearl two. n/t

[david13]

8. I am meat. I eat meat. Therefore I am. dc

[postulater]

9. I only eat roadkill. I am part of the solution.

[The Straight Story]

12. How is it Indefensible? I can defend it. (nt)

[Fla_Democrat]

61. On what sane planet

would you have to? :smoke:

[handmade34]

13. good on him...

especially relevant:

"...if you would not personally slice a chicken's beak off, or castrate a pig without pain relief or slice open an animal's throat, why pay someone else to do it for you? Where is the basic integrity in entering into this mercenary relationship? Is the person who hires someone to do something less culpable than the one who carries out the action? Of course not. Eating meat involves paying people to do things for us that most of us would not do ourselves..."

been there done that and it's not worth it

[lazarus]

28. I've done those things

so I have no problem paying someone else to do them.

[handmade34]

126. ok

[northofdenali]

130. Ditto, laz, as well as hunted them and butchered them myself.

Once out of the field, though, the meat goes to a pro for packaging. Locally grown isn't cheap (which is why we eat so many lacto/ovo/vegetarian meals) but I won't go any other way, except to get out in the field and get my own.

[Curmudgeoness]

37. If I were starving to death, you better watch your back.

I have no doubt that I could do this if it was my only option.

[handmade34]

117. ??

odd response. I expect we all could kill an animal to eat, if we were starving.

[brooklynite]

47. Like, collect garbage? Deal with dead bodies?

Sorry, try again

[inwiththenew]

55. I agree

If you aren't willing to climb up and service power lines, should you not have electricity?

[Igel]

87. If you're not willing to work in sewers. . . n/t

[Chef Eric]

241. What does climbing power lines have to do with torturing chickens? nt

[handmade34]

125. same thing

you shouldn't make garbage, if you wouldn't be willing to take care of it

dead bodies???? that doesn't make sense

[defendandprotect]

59. Agree -- if slaughter houses had glass walls and we could all hear the

cries from them every day -- there would be less opportunity for any to think

that their bravado re animal eating wouldn't be challenged.

United Nations a few weeks ago urged everyone to go vegetarian to help the planet --

The responses are an interesting intermingling of urges to violence combined with

disregard for an animal's pain -- in fact, a total ignoring of very serious issues

surrounding animal eating.

Strikes me as similar to the shrugs of elites in response to the pain of those without

health care -- those losing their homes -- and those without jobs.

Also similar to the many who want to deny the realities of Global Warming -

VEGAN HERE!!

[ohheckyeah]

214. Oh, God,

we're living in Demolition Man.

[X_Digger]

72. No problem for me.

Some of us didn't grow up in cities not knowing where the juicy goodness came from.

4-H + FFA = what's for dinner.

[Ignis]

79. ...Because every vegetarian MUST be a city-slicker, right?

http://www.madcowboy.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Lyman

[X_Digger]

82. No, meat-eating hypocrites are just as silly.

If you can't kill, butcher, and cook it yourself at least once, maybe you should be a vegetarian.

Me? No problem.

eta: 'Course I feel the same way about vegetarians who don't know how to grow their own food, too.

[Ignis]

90. Fair enough, then.

I think we'd both agree that meat doesn't magically come from the supermarket, wrapped by the styrofoam fairy. :D

[Biker13]

201. Yup!

My Grandma taught me how to kill chickens! Grab it by the head and swing it around to break it's neck. I'm a farm girl, and know where my food comes from. 4-H was my life as a teen.

Biker's Old Lady

[greytdemocrat]

14. I'll eat what I damn well please.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't need anyone telling me what to eat thank you.

[handmade34]

123. these threads are not about

"telling you what to eat" Most people that post and/or bring up the subject of meat in our diet, do so because there are truly serious concerns about what is happening globally as a result of excessive meat production and consumption; just as people bring up other issues that are of great impact in the world such as, global climate change, economic insecurity, inequalities, etc... I personally don't eat meat, but I would never suggest that I could tell someone else what to eat. I do suggest that factory farms produce less than healthy food, are harmful to the planet, contribute to climate change, are in most cases horrible for the animal, etc. I always encourage the people around me that want to eat meat, to raise their own meat, buy locally and/or just consider the implications of what their diet means to the larger community.

I have in the past raised (and slaughtered) cows, pigs, rabbits, chickens, ducks, sheep and goats and I know the animals were well cared for, healthy and (if there is such a possibility) killed humanely. I talk about the subject because I care and just would like people to think about their actions.


from the original post, "If we eat meat, we should at least ensure that we know what we're paying for"

[Ignis]

147. +1, thanks for the thoughtful response.

:thumbsup:

I've been a vegan for almost 20 years, but frankly, I don't give a crap what anyone else eats.

As an environmentalist for longer than that, however, I do care how other people's actions affect the environment that we all must share.

[Catherina]

176. Thank you n/t

[lukasahero]

236. This is an excellent post

Thank you for the consideration you showed in writing it.

[Odin2005]

16. *bites into a hamburger*

[X_Digger]

73. Pass the A-1. n/t

[panader0]

17. But broccoli has feelings too!

"The Secret Life Of Plants" by Christpher Bird and Peter Tompkins says so
Don't be mean to your house plants.
Eating plants is the same as eating meat.

[Ignis]

148. I really, really hope you're being sarcastic.

The theory of plant perception was some of the worst of the pseudo-scientific "woo" to come out of the 1970s. No one's been able to reliably duplicate Backster's results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_%28paranormal%29

[Chef Eric]

242. "There's a lady I know... If I didn't know her, she'd be the lady I didn't know.

And my lady she went downtown, she bought some… broccoli, she brought it home.
Now she’s….. choppin’ broccoli. Choppin' broccoli. She's choppin' broccoli.

- Dana Carvey

[Warpy]

18. Factory farming living creatures for meat and other products is indefensible

and done simply out of GREED and results in inferior foodstuffs produced after short lifetimes of abject misery.

No thanks.

I'll pay premium prices for an occasional piece of organically raised, free range chicken. You can't cut the meat with the side of a fork and it has a real flavor. It's enough to know that chicken felt sunshine, wind and rain, if only for an hour a day, and was able to scratch the ground for grubs and bugs.

This planet runs on creatures eating other creatures, whether rooted to the soil or not, the bodies of the dead fertilizing the plants their descendants will later eat. I don't see the breach of morality in being an omnivore.

I do see it in jamming the maximum number of animals in small spaces, nothing to do but overeat as they stand deep in their own waste. No thanks, it's not a system I will ever contribute to.

[smalll]

22. Congratulations on being rich enough to buy organic. /nt

[superduperfarleft]

24. LOL.

:rofl:

[Warpy]

54. Thank you. It's through no merit of my own, I didn't get that way

being a registered nurse.

I get the organic stuff very rarely and use it in Chinese cooking, as a flavoring and not the main event.

I can get four meals out of a single chicken breast, which actually makes it a bit more reasonable that confronting a slab of meat on a plate.

Most of the time I eat beans.

[Ignis]

149. BEANS?!? Luxury!

Back in my day, we picked the pebbles out of lentils and ate those...and we were happy to have it!

[Statistical]

151. Rocks??? A paradise.

We ate 2 pounds of cold poison every morning.

[Ignis]

155. COLD poison? Oooooooooooh, isn't THAT nice?!?

We would have slit our own mother's throat for COLD poison.

[Ikonoklast]

160. Wow. You could afford poison?

We were lucky to have the box the poison came in for dinner. Once a week.

When things got really tight, we hallucinated about having the box to eat.


What we would have done for a spoonful of poison!

[Ignis]

184. Cardboard box?

Oh, we dreamed of having a cardboard box! La-di-dah!

[Warpy]

179. Uh, you still have to pick the pebbles out of them

unless you want to crack your teeth apart.

All grocery stores around here sell bulk pintos and rice, but those pintos need very careful picking over.

[Ignis]

182. It's a Python in-joke. No real snark intended.

Here's the Four Yorkshiremen sketch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

ETA: And to clarify, I'm mocking the ridiculously snarky response you received regarding being "rich" for buying an organic vegetable now and then. :D

[Warren DeMontague]

95. I take latte baths, then lovingly pat myself dry with arrugula.

While watching Star Trek and Lost.

[smalll]

101. LOL! A fan!

:hug:

[MajorChode]

66. You do realize there are no real standards for "free range"

Many producers satisfy this requirement by simply having a very small open area at the end of their shed. For that, they are scamming you out of additional money so you can sleep better at night.

Now certainly there are farms that operate differently, but if you don't know where the chicken comes from, chances are if you saw the conditions of what qualifies as "free range" compared to a Tyson's farm, you wouldn't come away thinking those chickens are outside scratching "the ground for grubs and bugs."

[Warpy]

67. Right, the minimum is an hour outside the facility

and most birds only get that hour. Still, it's marginally better than being jam packed inside a barn with artificial lighting 24/7.

[MajorChode]

96. It's not even an hour

FREE RANGE or FREE ROAMING:
Producers must demonstrate to the Agency that the poultry has been allowed access to the outside.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/Meat_&_Poultry_Labeling_Terms/index.asp

[FedUpWithIt All]

103. That is why it is so important to know where your food comes from and purchase locally.

That or grow your own.

[MajorChode]

172. There's lots of reasons to seek out other sources

Even if your only concern is taste and quality, there's plenty of reasons to look elsewhere.

The chicken farming industry has gravitated towards extreme efficiency and low cost at the expense of option and quality. It's almost impossible to find a stewing chicken these days. Not that long ago they were right next to the fryers at every supermarket.

[FedUpWithIt All]

102. + + + + +

:thumbsup:

[Swede]

19. Resolved:bacon is so tastey

[TexasObserver]

26. Resolved: Eating Animals is a natural part of human existence.

If we didn't need to eat animals we wouldn't want to do so.

Our bodies would not process meat if we our bodies were not designed to eat meat.

If you don't want to eat animals, then don't. All food consumption kills animals or deprives them of their habitat, including the growth of vegetables. If you don't keep the varmints and insects out of your vegetables, you won't have any vegetables. All food production kills animals.

[HuckleB]

211. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Confusious]

223. DAMN VARMINTS!!!!!!!

I always thought it was 'varmits'. Learn something new every day.

[Cetacea]

249. How does make it right? lol

[slackmaster]

27. This from someone who doesn't even think it's OK to use manure to fertilize crops

:argh:

[flvegan]

29. Ad hominem? On DU?

Say it isn't so.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Flvegan? Taking an issue with ad hominem attacks?

Well, it's not like he's never quickly reversed his beliefs to suit the topic of a thread in the past.

*cough* pitbulls *cough*

[flvegan]

42. See

what you fail to mention, is that I do both. Author and argument.

Unlike others, *cough* Bornagin *cough*

[LoZoccolo]

71. Do-doooooooo da doooo-doooo...ad hominem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA90IlymdZ4

[AsahinaKimi]

198. liked this one better..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5Mc55P1i9g

[slackmaster]

118. I attacked an idea, not the person

HTH

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. The same guy who thinks the moon landing was faked.

[slackmaster]

119. ...And that one of the atomic bombs dropped on Japanese cities in 1945 was built by Germany

:nuke: :nuke:

[hobbit709]

133. Partially true

We did capture a U-boat with a load of enriched Uranium that was being sent to Japan as Germany was collapsing. Said Uranium was further processed at Oak Ridge

[GreenStormCloud]

158. Sorry, but I have difficulty believing that.

Only one U-boat was captured during the war. That U-boat was a nothing special, ordinary, operational U-boat. All other victories over a U-boat ended with the U-boat being sunk.

No U-boat had the range to go from Germany, around Africa, around Malasia, and make it to Japan. That is a huge distance, and Germany didn't have refueling stops in such remote areas.

The German plant for making heavy water was destroyed in WWII by a commando team.

[hobbit709]

173. Believe what you want but read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234

And I said enriched Uranium, not heavy water.

[apocalypsehow]

178. That link proves nothing about the validity of the claim the poster is referencing.

Please try again.

[hobbit709]

194. I don't buy the original claim either and never said so.

But like many stories, there is a small grain of truth and THAT was what I was referencing.
If you want to split hairs over that go to it-I'm done.

[apocalypsehow]

197. There is not the slightest grain of truth to the original claim, period. Either offer evidence to

the contrary, or find something else to type words to me about. Thanks. :thumbsup:

[hobbit709]

199. Since your mind appears to be made up, goodbye.

[apocalypsehow]

220. It's not a matter of my mind being "made up" - it's a matter of the *FACTS* as they exist.

"goodbye"

This is the second time you have stated that you intend to terminate this discussion, and for good reason, since it's not going well for you.

Pinkie promise this time? :shrug:

[GreenStormCloud]

208. Heavy water was used in the production of enriched uranium. N/T

[apocalypsehow]

180. Not true in the slightest. Germany had nothing to do with the Manhattan Project.

The fact that our government might have used some seized Uranium to help build the bombs does not in any way validate the false claim that Germany actually "built" the atomic bomb - which is the claim the poster you replied to is referencing.














Wait for it....wait for it...wait for it..."one of the guys who worked on the Manhattan Project had a grandma that immigrated from Cologne, so it was actually a German invention...now I'll hurl a personal attack in lieu of actual facts...."

[uppityperson]

226. !

[aquart]

31. God created the food chain. Denying the food chain is spitting on God.

On edit: Plants feel. Plants react. I loathe bigots who gobble plants on the premise they have no feelings worth considering.

[Merlot]

36. I disagree. It's the cruelty that is indefensible.

Personally, I don't eat animals because of the cruelty involved in the factory farming. I also don't eat meat due to the hormones, drugs and toxins.

If my friends want to eat meat, I urge them to shop organic. Better for the animal and better for the human.

[undeterred]

41. Exactly.

Eating animals is defensible in some circumstances, but cruelty to animals is never defensible.

[Orsino]

48. Yes. Meat made us smarter, once upon a time.

While I'm all for reducing or eliminating meat consumption when possible, the fact is that we evolved to be omnivores. Agriculture gives us many opportunities to choose other foods, and we ought to take more advantage of it--especially in a world that is running out of the disproportionate space and resources that raising meat consumes.

Agriculture's only ten thousand years old, though, so this moral decision comes at a time when we are still adapted to meat-eating.

[defendandprotect]

60. Animals did not survive by eating other animals -- they ate vegetation . . . i.e., gardens

came BEFORE animal-eating --

And, obviously, it is the lie of the Garden of Eden which ended the Golden Age --

the sin of the knowledge of the Tree of Life/DNA --

Eve stands still with the actual message in her hand -- an Apple.

[Sheepshank]

81. an apple? huh?

modern day, religiousity clap trap....there is absolutely NO evidence in any ancient writing the fruit of the tree of good and evil was an apple. I'm thinking it was more likely a passion fruit. Besides, it was a vegan diet that had Adam and Eve cast out of the garden of Eden...so how good can that be?

[defendandprotect]

97. Thanks for the laugh . . . now let's see . . . an APPLE is not "religion" . . .

The Bible is merely myth -- distorted to serve the purposes of the writers --

HOWEVER, in references to the "Tree of Life" . . . DNA . . . that would suggest ...

"DON'T EAT YOUR SISTERS AND BROTHERS ON THE PLANET -- ANIMAL-LIFE! -- "

And, no . . . Eve and the Apple are NOT a "religious" message, but a message re what

you should be eating! Everything that grows in the Garden.

And that does NOT include animal-life!

It was a "vegan diet" which had Adam & Even cast out of the Garden of Eden?

No -- it was where the slaughtering of animals began -- and where animal-eating began!!

The first spilling of blood in the Garden of Eden!

[greyl]

105. If that were the case (tree of life,apple = DNA),

wouldn't the apple probably have been a lamb? ;)

[defendandprotect]

183. THAT's what I've been trying to convey to you --

The Tree of Life/DNA = animal-eating = cannibalism

Eve is telling you this was an attack on animal-life and healthful food --

i.e., apples.

And the introduction of violence into the Garden of Eden -- blood letting.





:)

[Orsino]

112. Heh.

:thumbsup:

[uppityperson]

227. Did the snake eat vegetables too? Not a good argument.

[G_j]

115. cruelty is absolutely indefensible!

but torture has made a come back

[Lorien]

39. Bingo!

I feel much better since I've gone vegetarian. If everyone did we could lengthen the time that all species have on this planet (meat production is a greater cause of climate change than the automobile is) and end hunger world wide, but people are too shallow and selfish to care. Burgers mean more to them than their own survival or that of their children.

[Stevenmarc]

40. Good, more meat for me

[LWolf]

43. Some of us raise our own without abuse, or

buy meat locally from family ranches, also raised ethically and healthily.

For all who want meat to be able to do that, everyone would have to agree to eat less meat, and eat it less often.

I can agree to that. As a matter of fact, I'm getting ready to cook a meatless dinner in a few minutes.

[X_Digger]

74. Or hunt it.

Last time I visited my family, I came back with a dry-ice packed cooler full of deerburgers, venison steaks, and turkey sausage.

[northofdenali]

131. I can't go after the Big Dudes much any more like

moose or bison, but caribou are still fairly easy to field dress and drag out, even at my 56 years and 108 pounds.........

And wild birds (ptarmigan, duck, goose) are MUCH tastier than that packaged crap in the supermarket. I have to supplement some from the market, but we are so lucky to have a local meat/vegetable/dairy market now! It's expensive so meat is a treat rather than the rule......

[LWolf]

141. Many people in my area hunt to fill the freezer.

I hear all about it; it's common for my students to take time out of school to hunt with their families.

[Touchdown]

45. Only a giant headed ego clown heads up his opinons with "Resolved".

I immediately dismiss anything they have to say, and don't waste my time with their drivel.

[truth2power]

204. It's a debate. The author participates in debates on college campuses...

That's how debates are structured. It's not pretentious.

[doc03]

46. PETA people eating tasty animals, God made us omnivores

and put animals here for our consumption. Wolves kill and eat deer, humans kill and eat deer.

[Ignis]

77. YES! One step closer to BINGO!

:party:

[lynne]

49. I Don't Care. eom

[Tyrs WolfDaemon]

50. Wendigos don't like vegetarians

Many years ago, I was possessed by a Wendigo (The Spirit of Lonely Places, they cause a person to become a cannibal). A buddy of mine reminded me that many of our friends were vegetarians. The Wendigo left my body a fast as it could, leaving me with one message. It said that vegetarians are not very tasty, and are fairly stringy; and that is how I know Wendigos don't like vegetarians.

[cynatnite]

52. "the only ethical diet is a vegetarian one"...

:rofl: Right.

[deaniac21]

53. I can't decide if I like fish, cows or chicken the best.

[Fla_Democrat]

62. Resolved: Not to fret over

what is on someone's plate, what's in their wallet, what's in their bed. Gee, I feel so much better already. :smoke:

[aikoaiko]

64. Eating animals is not indensible -- but I will admit that there are lots of good reasons to be vegan

I say that even as I have no desire to try going meatless again.

[JCMach1]

65. No, they are tasty...

However, we do eat too much meat these days.

[Peregrine]

68. If we all became vegetarians

cows, pigs, and chickens would all have to be destroyed. To release them would cause serious environmental damage. They would replace native animals and wipe out native vegetation. Pigs and goats on Pacific islands introduced by Europeans still endanger native animals and plants.

[handmade34]

156. I suspect we will gradually reduce our consumption of meat...

there is no fear of feral cows, pigs, chickens and the sort terrorizing our neighborhoods

[ProgressiveProfessor]

69. It is scarcely a hot item on my campus

We have a vegan community, we have frat boys, we have a serious BBQ group too. None of them look particularly malnourished.

[Pavulon]

70. nom nom nom captured bolt gun or 30-06

I prefer organic never seen a feed lot tastiness but sometimes you have to compromise. corn feed beef is yummy.

[Frisbee]

78. To deny that humans are a part of the food chain...

is absolutely rediculous. And I suspect I am as much of an animal lover as just about anybody here.

[undeterred]

113. I deny that humans are commonly used as food.

[slackmaster]

120. The only way to avoid having a human body used as food is to cremate it

Nobody Loses All The Time
E. E. Cummings

nobody loses all the time

i had an uncle named
Sol who was a born failure and
nearly everybody said he should have gone
into vaudeville perhaps because my Uncle Sol could
sing McCann He Was A Diver on Xmas Eve like Hell Itself which
may or may not account for the fact that my Uncle

Sol indulged in that possibly most inexcusable
of all to use a highfalootin phrase
luxuries that is or to
wit farming and be
it needlessly
added

my Uncle Sol’s farm
failed because the chickens
ate the vegetables so
my Uncle Sol had a
chicken farm till the
skunks ate the chickens when

my Uncle Sol
had a skunk farm but
the skunks caught cold and
died and so
my Uncle Sol imitated the
skunks in a subtle manner

or by drowning himself in the watertank
but somebody who’d given my Uncle Sol a Victor
Victrola and records while he lived presented to
him upon the auspicious occasion of his decease a
scruptious not to mention splendiferous funeral with
tall boys in black gloves and flowers and everything and
i remember we all cried like the Missouri
when my Uncle Sol’s coffin lurched because
somebody pressed a button
(and down went
my Uncle
Sol

and started a worm farm)

[Ignis]

144. Yay for Cummings.

:toast:

[Ikonoklast]

154. Ask certain worms and bacteria.

Humans?

Nom nom nom.



We are not actually at the 'top' of the food chain; humans can be described as Apex Predators, but even we become carrion one day.

[Lorien]

88. Yet one more issue where no amount of truth of facts matter

"Put another way: If we believe that people should try to protect the environment, OR we believe that we should try not to cause people to starve OR we oppose cruelty to animals, the only ethical diet is a vegetarian one."

There is nothing incorrect about that statement, yet the number of unreccs alone show just how kneejerk the reactions here are. Anything to defend something that IS unhealthy, IS bad for the planet, IS horrific beyond all imagining for the animals involved (who do feel as deeply as your family pets do) and DOES cause climate change and global food shortages...but who cares, right? "Animals are tasty and if we weren't supposed to eat them they wouldn't be made of meat! HAHAHAHA! And look at our cat like teeth! Oh, uh, bear like teeth! Hmmm, they DO look more like a horses teeth...no, no-we're CARNIVORES, just like tigers!!!!"

Whatever, people. As I've learned form many here; principles are for the "less practical" among us. :eyes:

[wickerwoman]

100. With all due respect,

the argument "the only ethical diet is a vegetarian one" *is* absolutist, overly black-and-white and incorrect as many people in this thread have pointed out.

Eating meat doesn't automatically imply that those animals are treated cruelly or that an omnivorous diet causes climate change and global food shortages.

It's the amount of meat that typical Americans eat and where they get it that causes health and environmental problems. (Global food shortages are caused by crappy, inefficient distribution of food, not the ratio of meat to vegetables and grains produced. We actually would have massive food surpluses if we weren't in a capitalist system that values maintaining market prices more than relieving human suffering and hunger).

What is unethical about eating a sustainable amount of meat from animals that have been raised humanely?

Just because some people's principles differ from yours (and probably not as much as you might imagine), doesn't mean that they don't have any.

[G_j]

116. +100

[cleanhippie]

163. Puh-lease! Some might say it is animal abuse to ride that High-horse like that.

[Scruffy1]

200. II think you nailed it-even though I eat meat.

I grew up in the meat growing business and am probably not going to become a vegetarian even though most of my friends are and the only restaurant I frequent is vegetarian. I don't think eating meat itself is unhealthy if you don't live off of Burger King and MacDonalds. The real problem is that meat raising is not sustainable for a planet of 7,000,000,000 people. As the years go on I eat less meat.

[Big Blue Marble]

92. Meat eaters and their responses are so d@mmed predictable.

Denial is a heavy load and they just do not quit. The suffering and the pain to the animals, to the planet, and
to themselves do not matter. Thread after thread, year after year nothing ever changes for them.

Sadly they do not know the freedom they would gain from giving up meat. Life is far better without it.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

99. Having quit both meat eating and proseltyzing to people about their personal choices

I can safely say that it feels MUCH better to stop being fuckin' preachy.

[Big Blue Marble]

140. Ethics matter.

This is not about my personal choices or opinions. In the eighteenth century, abolitionists were despised, mocked, and ridiculed for
their stand against slavery. They had the moral courage to stay the course. Many called them preachy. Would you now in retrospect,
do so?

[Warren DeMontague]

165. So, if there is an absolute moral equivalency between meat eating and, say, slavery

what should the punishment be for eating a cheeseburger? Death?

[Big Blue Marble]

167. Absurdity is no refutation of the facts.

It is a not so clever way to obscure the suffering of the beings who are being harmed. If you study the history of the abolitionist movement,
you might actually become uncomfortable with the parallels to the arguments used to justified the continued abuse of animals in factory farms.

Minimize this suffering as much as you want; the facts of it remain.

[Warren DeMontague]

168. You do realize that anti-choice groups use the exact same argument, don't you?

The core flaw in the reasoning is that a

chicken at KFC

is not the same thing as a

fertilized egg cell in a woman's uterus

is not the same thing as a

human being.

[Big Blue Marble]

169. Your argument is wrapped in specism

A chicken is a sentient being in its own right. it has nervous system that works as well as yours in expressing pain. It is only by the power
of might that we use the chicken for our ends without reference to the integrity of its life. We will continue to do so as long there is social consensus
to to so. But might at the expense of compassion is destroying our world. Look around you. The arrogance and the denial of the human race is taking us down.

As a footnote, I have never considered the abortion issue to be a black and white or right and wrong issue. I choose to come down on the side of women's
right to their reproductive rights but understand that it is at best a ethical conundrum which ever side you choose.

[Warren DeMontague]

174. Then answer the question.

What should the punishment be for eating a hamburger?

Doesn't your logic make everyone who has a bucket of extra crispy at KFC, essentially, Jeffrey Dahmer?

What you are missing is that we are part of nature and the web of life, and the web of life includes animals (such as ourselves) eating other animals.

[Big Blue Marble]

246. Which of those other animals

industrialized their meat production/consumption to the detriment of the health of the planet?

You are seriously using 'the web of life" argument to justify this corporate culture of death? Or did you forget
the sarcasm thingy?

[Warren DeMontague]

253. a) like the song says:

you cannot go against nature, because if you do...
going against nature is part of nature, too.

b) Personally, no, I think factory farming is a bad thing. Bad for the animal, bad for the consumer, yes, bad for the environment--- however, you underestimate "the planet" if you think it can't survive industrialized meat production. It survived Chixiclub, it can survive Kentucky Fried Chicken.

But factory farming is not synonymous with all meat eating, nor does it have anything to do with the well-documented historical propensity of the human animal to enjoy an omnivorous diet. And that's what the thread is about. I'm all for free range, locally and humanely produced meat. And I think people do deserve to know what's on their plate, whether they're reading Upton Sinclair or watching Food, Inc. People should be able to know.

c) Again, with "culture of death"-- it's astounding how much overlap there is with the vegan rhetoric and the extremist anti-choice rhetoric. Which brings me to my final point:

Upthread you talk about abortion and choice "not (being) a black and white issue" ... and you're absolutely right. But it is the anti-choice people who are the moral absolutists, the black-and-white thinkers, the ones unable to see shades of gray. The ones who are unable to distinguish between a fertilized egg, a fetus at 4 weeks, a fetus at 8 months, and a "baby". To the anti-choicers, they're all the same. Similarly, with the militant vegan/PETA crowd. Unable, unwilling to distinguish between a virus, a chicken, a dolphin, and a human being.

Most sensible people accept that there is a continuum of sentience up from, say, insects, along to reptiles, birds, mammals, humans, etc. A fly is not a rat is not a dog is not a person, nor should they be treated as such under the law. Just as a fertilized egg is not the same thing a "baby".

Most sensible people believe that cruelty to animals is wrong, and that unnecessary suffering should be minimized whenever possible. But most people can reconcile meat eating with that belief.

Elsewhere you toss out the word "speciesist", as though it's supposed to be some sort of an insult. It's the converse philosophical position that is truly extreme and, frankly, a little disturbed. Do you honestly believe that the life of a lab rat is as valuable as that of a sick child? Really? You'd watch a sick kid die to save a lab rat? If not, you too, are speciesist. If so, then there are probably some other words which might apply.

And lastly, you still haven't answered the question: If there is NO DIFFERENCE between, say, a chicken or a cow and a person, morally, what should the punishment be for eating a burger? Seriously.

[Ignis]

143. !

:spray:

Le win!

[LanternWaste]

232. because we *never* proselytize...

because we *never* proselytize our politics to other people...

[Warren DeMontague]

254. I've never once in my life been remotely interested in telling someone else what to eat.

They ask for my advice, I'll give it. But playing Menu Mussolini is not how I get my jollies.

[flvegan]

107. Be prepared

to be told to sod off and be called preachy.

Oh wait...DU spoke too soon.

LOL!

[Warren DeMontague]

109. You don't think that post is preachy?

Jesus fucking Christ, get that guy a collar and a pulpit to thump.

[flvegan]

110. Not unless preachy = factual, no.

I'm not a big fan of Friedrich. Okay, actually, I don't like him. I'd really rather not support what he says, but...he's right here.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. "Life is far better without it. " is about as subjective of an un-factual statement as one can make

Like "Rocky Road is THE BEST kind of ice cream".

Well, okay, maybe for you. To you.

And that's the whole thing. People want to take their own experiences and project them onto the rest of the world. Enlightening us as to how much happier we would be if we just embraced Mormonism, or Scientology, or got rid of the very nice piece of prime rib in the refrigerator. The one that is very tasty with the blob of butter and a bit of horseradish.

That's preachy, friend.

Personally? I made a lot of health decisions when I hit around 30, and one of those was to cut out red meat, fried food, and a lot of other things I didn't find particularly healthy. Me, yes, I feel better.

But your mileage may vary, and I'm really busy enough determining my own menu without being busy determining yours.

[LanternWaste]

235. No more and no less than...

"You don't think that post is preachy?"

No more and no less than the incredibly huge preachy political posts on DU. I imagine you complain about the tenor and tone those also...

[Warren DeMontague]

257. I think anyone who imagines they have the free time to micro-manage other peoples' meal choices

really ought to take up a hobby, like building ships in a fucking bottle or something.

[northofdenali]

132. Holier than thou..........

reminds me of ex-smokers.

[cleanhippie]

164. What about the suffering you cause by riding that high-horse of yours?

[uppityperson]

261. How many animals are massacred while combining a field of wheat?

How many are killed from the chemicals on soy crops? Does that mouse not suffer? Does it not feel pain and horror as it is ripped to shreds?

Do you grow all your food, organically? Have you ever thought of the worms you kill while digging?

[Prometheus Bound]

262. Please! "Some" meat eaters.

I suspect there are many other meat eaters, like me, who are embarrassed by many of these responses.

Please don't put us in the same category just because we are all meat eaters.

[Shining Jack]

108. Resolved: Now I only eat this stuff:

:9

[geek_sabre]

114. From NPR: Vegetarian researcher concludes meat makes us smarter

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128849908

[MadHound]

121. Depends on the animals you eat

If you are eating an organically raised animal, of course it is defensible. In fact livestock is necessary in the agricultural cycle, since they provide fertilizer for those fields.

As far as going vegetarian goes, well, sometimes it isn't as responsible, or earth friendly decision as it is made to look.

"That's not the only issue with fake meat. Consider the process that keeps your veggie burgers low in fat: The cheapest way to remove fatty soybean oil is with hexane, an EPA-registered air pollutant and suspected neurotoxin. A 2009 study by the Cornucopia Institute, a sustainable-farming nonprofit, found that Boca, Morningstar Farms, and Gardenburger (among others) market products made with hexane."

<http://motherjones.com/environment/2010/07/is-vegetarian-diet-green>

It is how we raise our meat that is indefensible. That's why you should get organically raised meat, from a local family farmer. Oh, and remember, don't eat the processed soy stuff.

[handmade34]

127. agree and rec

except, while manure is excellent for fertilizer it isn't absolutely "necessary"

and I whole heartedly agree that people should stay away from processed anything, including "fake meat" (yuck!)

[MadHound]

142. Unless you're willing to use petro fertilizer,

Yes, manuring a field is necessary. Our population is large enough that we can't take fields out of production for the amount of time necessary for the soil to build up again, so a fertilizer of some sort is needed, and manure is an excellent, organic fertilizer.

[handmade34]

146. not willing to use petroleum based fertilizer.

there are many soil amendments such as:
Compost
Seaweed
All organic plant by-products and meals
Humanure (if we weren't so squimish and didn't use chemicals to process)
Green manure...

There might be room for your argument if the impossible happened and all people quit eating meat overnight. No one expects that to happen, nor do I suspect many want that to happen. We just want people to be more cognizant of the effects of their actions. Change would (will) be gradual and we will come to understand the ways available, and needed, to keep soils healthy and able to sustain necessary crops.

The reality at present is that we despoil(along with clear cutting forests) hundreds of thousands of acres of land by growing excessive feed for animals. It has always been my stance that there is land appropriate for grazing and that is the land we should use to feed up the animals for meat consumption (of course much less). Most animals that are eaten are natural grazers or browsers and we pervert their natural systems by feeding them excessive grains and chemicals. I do not see anything good about factory farming.

[northofdenali]

128. Sorry. Nope.

I happen to like my meat, particularly moose (locally grown, you know)and no WAY am I giving up the salmon I catch or the ptarmigan I shoot and stick in the freezer.

I don't live subsistence, but the meat I get is either raised locally (including cow, pig and chicken) and generally high priced but worth it to know they're raised and slaughtered humanely. These animals, like reindeer, have been domestically produced for thousands of years for one purpose - food.

And I'll take it. Red meat about once every 2 weeks, a little more often if I get my moose and caribou.

Moose, however, are quite vegetarian, except when they're taking out folks on the local roads.......

[hobbit709]

134. I eat what I kill

So far haven't had to cook long pig.

[Bettie]

135. Honest question here

Do you think that this will change anyone's opinion on eating a meat inclusive diet versus eating a vegan diet?

I do not judge you for your food choices and I frankly resent the implication that you have the right to judge me for mine.

Yes, I see all the vegans and garden-variety vegetarians have popped in with their belittling comments and moral superiority over the meat-eaters and the meat-eaters have similarly mocked the veggies and talked about how animals are tasty and all that, but in the end, what does this accomplish?

The language that you use accuses those who do not cleave to your personal principles of being unfeeling monsters not in so many words, but the message is still pretty clear. The other wrinkle is that even if someone becomes a vegetarian (and still eats milk, eggs, etc.) they are not virtuous enough until they go vegan. Honestly, this doesn't work for everyone.

Now the disclaimer at the end: I do eat meals with meat, I also eat meals without meat. Since I prepare our food, I know what my family is eating and use as little processed food as I am able to. On the other hand, I do not use tofu ever because I personally its texture off putting.

Again, not flaming, just making an observation about the tone of the post and wondering what the intent is here.

[handmade34]

159. the post is about someone organizing debates

Debates must start with a premise. I think debates are good, I think learning, and talking with one another is good.

I never judge another's actions unless it seriously affects me or my community (and I am very careful to try and understand those actions). Factory farms (where most of the meat consumed comes from) concern me. I believe they are detrimental to the environment and cause harm to people.

Posts that I have seen (in the past) that discuss vegetarianism or the detriments of factory farms have been for the most part informational. A topic open to dialogue.

[MineralMan]

136. I have it on good authority that Vegans are space aliens.

They originated on the fourth planet orbiting around Vega. They arrived here in the late 19th century, where they were kicked off the mother ship for constantly complaining about the mess hall food, which served too many meals of roast Xhtngb for their liking and not enough Ewert. :rofl:

[madinmaryland]

175. You are from Vegas?? I am surprised how many people there are that claim to be

Las Vegans. I really did not realize there were that many gamblers on DU.

:shrug:

Oh well, learn something new everyday!

[Ignis]

238. Man, I would love to open a Mexican Vegan restaurant called Las Vegans.

Perhaps in Nevada? :think:

[Upton]

137. I agree sort of

I haven't eaten red meat or pork in years. I still eat poultry occasionally though...for I find that sticking to a purely vegan diet is just too much hassle.

[truth2power]

138. The mocking begins. *sigh*

Thanks for posting.

[apocalypsehow]

170. Some things deserve to be mocked. n/t.

[truth2power]

186. Defensive much? Someone takes a stand that animals

shouldn't be treated cruelly, and you take offense? I see.

Actually, I think the reason these threads raise so much ire is that some people who eat meat are fundamentally very conflicted about that decision.

[apocalypsehow]

192. Projection much? Apparently so.

I find it difficult to be offended by silliness matched with preachiness, but nice attempt to project your own offense that we don't all bow down and worship the almighty vegan god just because "truth2power" says we should.

"I think the reason these threads raise so much ire is that some people who eat meat are fundamentally very conflicted about that decision"

Ah, yes: it couldn't just be that folks dislike smug sermonizing about what they put on their plates, huh? It just has to be that they really, really, really don't want to eat meat, or feel "conflicted" about it, and thus the militant vegan stance on the issue is automatically vindicated! What a neat way to win every argument!

:eyes:

[apocalypsehow]

195. Wait for it....wait for it: "Personal attack + further psycho-analyzing + a crashing non sequitur"

Or two. Or three. Or four....

[truth2power]

206. Good grief!...

The author of the OP, Mr. Friedrich, has been traveling around the country, to various college campuses to participate in debate teams. Thus the heading – “Resolved” etc. In a debate, one must make an assertion of some sort. Otherwise there is nothing to argue about.

Mr. F. has presented a well-structured and reasoned argument (should he make a poor one?) for becoming a vegetarian, the conclusion of which is “…the only ethical diet is a vegetarian one.”

Why is it necessary for anyone to take this last statement personally? It's a debate.

It's up to the other side to present a reasoned argument ( sans ridicule and ad hominum attacks) in opposition to the resolution.

I stand by what I said. The fact that some in this thread take the above statement as a personal affront, makes me wonder about the extent to which they're conflicted about their own dietary choices.

[apocalypsehow]

221. I called it exactly right: "Personal attack + further psycho-analyzing + a crashing non sequitur"

You hit every cylinder in the engine of my prediction with this reply. Well done, apocalypsehow, if I may say so myself!

[apocalypsehow]

222. Wait for it..."Personal attack + further psycho-analyzing + a crashing non sequitur + last wordism"

Let's see how long it takes this prophecy to be fulfilled, just as the one I made above was forthwith.

[truth2power]

228. Obviously, you see no utility in arguing a question on its merits...

QED

Bye..



edit> typo

[apocalypsehow]

230. Obviously you don't keep track of your replies, or the typed contents therein.

"Obviously, you see no utility in arguing a question on its merits..."

You never advanced an "argument," not once. You simply whined around about how fantastic the OP was and how mean/unreasonable/etc. those mocking/disagreeing with the OP were, and then proceeded to question the motives of same. You did not do so with facts, but with dreary rhetorical tropes and amateur online psycho-analyzing of total strangers you've never laid eyes on or spoken to in the real world in your life.

Here's a hint for you: that's not what "arguing a question on its merits" is. That's simply a jumble of non sequiturs, borderline ad hominem (see, I can quote me some classical Latin, too!!! :eyes:) attacks, and online pop psychology - just as I stated above.

"Bye.."

Uh-huh - we'll see how long that lasts. Granted, you've not fared well in this exchange. But I sense a spasm of Last Word Fever coming on.....

[LanternWaste]

233. While still others pretend they're wise enough to know

"Some things deserve to be mocked..."

While still others pretend they're wise enough to know who deserves what...

[Paladin]

139. Oh, Goody. Yet Another Thread Featuring Hyper-Righteous Vegetarians.....

...and on the other side, obnoxious meat-eaters whose posts give no evidence that they can get around without the aid of their knuckles. How about everybody respecting one another's dietary choices without being assholes about it? Too much to ask?

[handmade34]

152. see post #88

I am a vegetarian; don't think I'm hyper-righteous and I haven't seen too many here that are. I do think there are serious issues relating to excessive meat consumption (many facts on this one)

are we not aboout trying to protect the environment??
are we not about ending cruel and immoral treatment of people and animals??
are we not about trying to make a better world for everyone??

excessive meat consumption comes into play in all these issues...

when someone writes "you can't tell me what I can eat" do they forget the impact our actions have on the rest of the population and the earth itself? We are too many people to take issues like this lightly

[Confusious]

215. Excessive fertilizer runoff from agriculture is also a problem

The algae blooms off the coasts is evidence of that.

Before you say 'just stop using the fertilizer' you should be aware that without those fertilizers a lot of people would starve.

A more responsible food industry on both sides, animal and vegetable, is needed. Consumers also need to make better choices.

It's not just animal industry causing problems, it's everyone.

[handmade34]

216. know all too well...

done a lot of farming and a lot of studying... too many unthinking and/or uncaring consumers.

I don't believe anybody would suggest we don't need fertilizer. As my post #146 states:

"there are many soil amendments such as:
Compost
Seaweed
All organic plant by-products and meals
Humanure (if we weren't so squimish and didn't use chemicals to process)
Green manure...
Change will be gradual and we will come to understand the ways available, and needed, to keep soils healthy and able to sustain necessary crops...at present we despoil(along with clear cutting forests) hundreds of thousands of acres of land by growing excessive feed for animals."

[Confusious]

219. I meant artificial fertilizers. I should have been more clear.

But I was thinking about other posts where people here rage against them. There is no way we will have enough 'natural' fertilizers to ever feed all the people on the planet today. There wasn't enough a century and a half ago.

[Matariki]

234. You haven't seen many self righteous vegetarians here?

That's funny, when the very subject line of the OP is about as sanctimonious as it gets.

[Ignis]

237. ...The OP title is also the title of the linked article.

Hate on vegetarians all you like, but let's not ignore the facts, eh?

[handmade34]

244. the subject line of the op is the title of an article

...not a statement by anyone here

[MrsBrady]

153. I don't like how commercial meat, animals raised for the masses are treated.

Beyond writing my representatives and buying organic where I can, there is not much I could do.
I could not eat it. But I am going to eat meat.

We buy organic and local when we can, but it's not always viable or affordable.
But we do when we can to support it with our $$.
I eat much less meat than my husband, but I'm gonna eat it.

My in-laws raise their own beef for their own use. Just a few head a year.
And they are good at it. Grass fed, mostly.
The Mennonite butcher they use say it's some of the best he's ever seen. And he services a wide rural area.

That stuff is so rich, you only need about half of what you would use when cooking commercial beef.
And the flavor is so good, you really don't need anything but a little salt. Not kidding.
It's falling off the bone before I even cook it. And it's not marbled very much. Fat in one place, meat in another. So good.

That's what beef is supposed to be like. It's very filling. Rich. It actually has favor. Don't need to add anything.

The animals are treated well. They are not abused. And yes, we appreciate their sacrifice.

[cleanhippie]

162. Fail. Eating meat is very defensible. It tastes good and is nutritious.

There, properly defended. Now I'm off to the grill..........

[Cetacea]

248. Bigger fail. It's an addiction that is destroying the planet.

[Cetacea]

251. dupe

[Cetacea]

252. Again. nm eom

[cleanhippie]

256. Is it?

Perhaps it is the massive overpopulation and overall consumerism, not just the eating of meat.

When we (as a global community) can get effective birth control, safe abortion, basic education and responsible thinking in government all sync'd up, the population just might go down, resulting in less need for space and resources.

Eating meat is not THE problem, please don;t be so narrow-viewed.

[lumberjack_jeff]

166. The only reason our brains are big enough to debate this...

... is because early hominids were omniviorous and got ample fat and protein.

[Cetacea]

250. Eat a coconut.

Or avocados. :)

[apocalypsehow]

171. Delighted to UnRec. n/t.

[Catherina]

177. Delighted to Rec. n/t.

[Prometheus Bound]

181. I admit he's got a powerful series of arguments.

He's almost got me convinced.

[uppityperson]

188. Unrec for several reasons. 1) animals are killed farming wheat, corn, veggies.

Many animals from bugs to worms in the ground to mice in the fields getting scooped up and killed. (assuming talking organic, if using pesticides then many many more die).

2) While factory farming is inhumane in many ways, not all meat is factory farmed. Seems calling for more humane treatment of animals is a better argument than if you eat meat you are inhumane.

3) How are mega-farms of corn (for example) protecting the environment? They aren't.

[tabasco]

189. Your only purpose was to post flamebait.

Why?

[tammywammy]

190. I'm guessing the OP thought we hadn't had a vegetarian vs meat eater flameout in a while

Plus it helps increase the ratio of self-righteousness around here (and we all know that can get too low ;)).

Silliness all around.

[totodeinhere]

191. Our species is omnivorous. Mankind has been eating meat since we evolved from apes.

Our teeth are designed to eat meat. We are at the top of the food chain. It is no more immoral for us to eat meat than it is for a lion to kill a zebra and eat it.

Now having said that, there is no justification for the inhumane treatment of animals raised for meat. It's not the eating of the meat that is immoral. It is the way the animals raised for meat are treated that is immoral.

[MellowDem]

202. Resolved: The OP is indefensible

What? You want to debate? No. Resolved. ;)

[slackmaster]

218. Indeed. An assertion that something cannot be defended is easily disproved.

All one has to do is offer any kind of defense for the thing in question.

[MellowDem]

203. "The only ethical diet is a vegetarian one"

How are most eggs gotten? Inhumane treatment. How about milk? Cheese?

So, guess you got to be a vegan.

But how are most vegetables produced? Pesticides, killing animals that eat the plants, killing animals in harvesting, plus many more fun side effects that agriculture has on our planet.

So, I guess you can't be ethical, according to these standards. But maybe instead of being viewed as a purely ethical debate, it should also be viewed in terms of being smart with your use of resources, and no "ism" has a monopoly on that.

[HuckleB]

212. Thus, people who truly felt the need to live this way became monks historically.

Of course, when hungry, they would eat the vegetables produced by others, if given to them.

Human hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Clearly, the need for some humans to feel superior to other humans knows no bounds either.

[Warren DeMontague]

259. The only truly ethical way to live is to be dead.

Really, you look at the self-loathing and humanity-hating that is evidenced in these threads, or threads about space exploration, having kids, or the future in general---

and really, you see that this is what a lot of it is about. People who are miserable and just think everyone should die, already.

[Confusious]

213. Yea, I guess we'll have to tell that to the rest o the carnivores on the planet.

No more real gazelle for you Mr. Lion. A nice soy gazelle from now on.

[Rebubula]

225. Futurama Agrees

[uncommon]

224. Raising animals in squalid conditions for the sole purpose of killing and eating them

may be indefensible, but eating meat in and of itself is hardly indefensible.

[NeedleCast]

229. I participated in this thread!

[walldude]

239. Not me man I'm running for the hills...

aw shit.. too late.

[ItNerd4life]

240. Resolved: Eating plants is indefensible. Save the planet, eat humans!

I'm for the ethical treatment of plants. People are always ripping them out by their roots, chopping of their heads. It's indefensible I say!

[Warren DeMontague]

255. brains! BRAINS! BRAINS!

Who knew I was such an environmentalist? :shrug:

[Mendocino]

245. I'm a vegan.

Um...is that too preachy?

[pipoman]

247. Of coarse it helps to at least acknowledge meat eating is as old as humankind..

not some invention of bronze age misogynists..

[shockra]

258. I agree that it's indefensible.

It teaches societies to look upon killing as normal, which sustains the Military Industrial Complex.

"For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love."
Pythagoras, mathematician

[uppityperson]

260. How many animals are massacred while combining a field of wheat?

How many die from the chemicals put on most soybean crops?