An Insult to Ground Zero

[Fearless]

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:applause:

[davidinalameda]

1. the answer can't be both?

[Hissyspit]

2. Yes. But it's not.

[davidinalameda]

3. actually it is

placing the mosque/Islamic center/whatever you want to call it is in very poor taste and is rightfully seen as an insult to the memory of those who died in the WTC

the benefits to the first responders could have been handled in a much better way as well

[gratuitous]

5. So, property owners can't do what they want with their property anymore?

Wow, our nation's even wussier than I thought. One little attack, we launch two illegal invasions, begin wholesale torturing of people, suspend habeas corpus, and now we're going to rewrite land use laws. I'd always been told the United States was the home of the brave, but that's clearly not the case.

We should change the words to the Star Spangled Banner.

[davidinalameda]

9. of course they can

but would you want to see a McDonald's or something equally as heinous right outside of Arlington National Cemetery or somewhere similar?

as I said, it's in very poor taste considering that Muslim extremists were the ones responsible for the attack

they can't open their center someplace else in the city? I'm sure that they could find buyers for that property and use to proceeds to buy another site

and one little attack? tell that to the families of the 3K plus people who died in that "little attack"

[emilyg]

13. +10 - those of us who

lost family and friends thank you.

[liberal_at_heart]

16. I'm so sorry you lost someone in the attack

[Violet_Crumble]

24. You should only speak for yrself when condoning intolerance and hatred...

Trying to make out that everyone who lost a friend or family member would agree with an argument that places responsibility for 9/11 on all Muslims in the US probably isn't too wise an idea.

If you did actually lose a friend or family member, I hope you find peace in the future...

[davidinalameda]

33. you're very welcome

and thank you

it seems as if I'm the only one on this board that disagrees with this

[northernlights]

46. I'm sorry you lost family and friends in 9/11

I hope you can come to understand that the terrorists were incidentally Muslim, in the same way that terrorists that kill in the name of Christianity are incidentally Christian. They are not practicing the true beliefs of their respective leaders -- both Mohammed and Christ preached peace. Islam, as I recall, translates literally to "peace."

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Violet_Crumble]

22. So you blame all Muslims for 9/11? Disgusting...

Do you realise or even care that what yr arguing is a position based in bigotry and intolerance?

btw, it's very telling that a centre devoted to mutual understanding and tolerance 'offends' you, yet the strip clubs located just as close to the site don't seem to bother you in the slightest...

Any family members who share yr belief that all Muslims are responsible for 9/11 are coming from an equally bigoted position. It's comments like yrs that make me realise that if there were too many people like you around, the tolerance and freedom of religion that the US should be so proud of would vanish in a puff of smoke...

Something else. It mustn't have occured to you that there were Muslim victims that day. I guess their families feelings don't count because they're Muslim, right?

[JHB]

23. Why should Sufis be held accountable for crimes perpetrated by whahabists?

That's something like opposing a Catholic center at the site of a KKK lynching.

Or a little closer, it's like the harassment of Iranians here during the hostage crisis, when the whole reason they were here was because they were fleeing from the Khomeini regime, which would have persecuted them if they'd stayed there.

[Lucian]

27. Muslim extremists caused the attack on the Towers on 9/11...

not the average Muslim. There's a huge difference between the two, just like there's a huge difference between Christians and fundamentalist Christian extremists.

So, if we go by your (lack of) logic, there should be no churches/cathedrals where The Crusades occurred, right?

[verdalaven]

30. So, after McVeigh blew up the Murrah building

Did we make sure Catholic Churches weren't built near the site where Americans died due to his extremist views? He was raised Catholic, though later he claimed to be agnostic - but my point stands.

Is repaying extremism with extremism a good idea? Or does it just feed the beast?

[IDemo]

34. He had contacts with the Christian Identity movement before the bombing:

http://www.eyeonhate.com/mcveigh/mcveigh3.html

- telephone records revealed thatTimothy McVeigh made calls to the rural enclave in the weeks prior to the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. More recently, however, it has been learned that Timothy McVeigh was heavily involved with the domestic terrorists who frequent Elohim City and who practice Christian Identity.

[Rabrrrrrr]

32. I was in the attack, and I think you're reasoning is awful, The cultural center is NOT in bad taste.

I'm all for letting them build it.

[tomp]

35. without a thorough investigation of 9/11 you cannot say who is responsible.

and such an investigation has emphatically NOT happened.

[kayakjohnny]

60. Thank you!

I was scrolling and scrolling to find that answer so I wouldn't have to post it myself.


Thank you again.

[tomp]

90. you're very welcome. this is the key factor in everything, period.

we have overturned our country based on something we haven't even investigated thoroughly. there are hundreds of important unanswered questions about the 9/11 attacks, some of which have the extremely likely potential of leading back to persons within our government.

here's just one curious example: in the early morning hours of 9/11, four "arab" men drove up to the *resident's" hotel requesting an audience. who in their right mind would do such a thing, and why were they not detained...or were they?

which is why i cannot abide obama. his failure to pursue the crimes of bush/cheney,inc is undeniable complicity. if it were up to me i would have obama arrested as an accessory after the fact. wiretapping and torture are slam dunks. failure to investigate a crime (9/11) is on both bush/cheney and obama.

[progressoid]

39. There are at least a half dozen restaurants surrounding Arlington.

Hell, there's even a Lebanese restaurant across the interstate from the Pentagon!
How dare they?!?!
Especially considering what happened to the Marines...
Twenty-seven years ago...
By someone from their homeland...
That they probably aren't restated to...
Or even have any connection to.


Now that I think about it, I think anyone that has ever had any connection to any threat or attack to the US&A should stay at least...umm...seventeen, yes seventeen blocks away from all things truly American.

[Name removed]

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[ThomThom]

41. in fact I believe there is a McDonald's across the street from the cemetery

also a cut rate a gas station with pork rinds and Coke

[Name removed]

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[Posteritatis]

66. Wow, Google Maps must be making things up all around the edges of the site, then. (nt)

[Name removed]

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[Posteritatis]

70. Quick search shows various businesses at different points around the periphery

I suppose the shopping mall just across the highway from the Pentagon and the cemetery both is just a hallucination, though. Or the Quarterdeck, or the graphics design place on Rolfe Street, or the takeout places on Pershing, or the gift/thrift shops in Fort Myer...

[Name removed]

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[ThomThom]

73. Sorry but your picture only show a very small part of Arlington Cemetery

And the Pentagon is pretty much across the street from one side. Pentagon City is one block away and has restaurants stores and offices.
Arlington Cemetery is huge.

[Name removed]

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[ThomThom]

75. I see Washington DC which is across the river from Arlington Virginia

The cemetery and the Pentagon are in Virginia.

[Name removed]

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[Bluebear]

80. bigot

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[ThomThom]

81. The cemetery is behind you in that picture and runs for miles

there roads and business the other side of the cemetery going up to Fort Meyers and down around to the Pentagon.
There are neighborhoods, apartments and businesses. I suggest you go to map quest and see just how large the cemetery is and the roads that surround it. You are looking down one road that goes in one direction across the Memorial Bridge into DC.

[Posteritatis]

43. A YMCA-equivalent is "heinous?" (nt)

[walldude]

47. I see. So one act by a few Muslim extremists should keep Muslims who

truly follow their faith from worshipping on ground where the attacks happened? Obviously you are not a follower of Religious history. But I'll leave the Christians out of it for now, the problem with your anti-Mosque stance is you are perpetuating the same problem that brought us the attack in the first place. What message is it you are sending the Terrorists by standing against the Mosque? That they won? That the American value of freedom of religion is to be put aside because of a few radical assholes?

Wouldn't a better message be "We will not condemn an entire religion because of the acts of a few extremists. We will not be made to live in fear."

[Capitalocracy]

49. I find McDonald's to be more heinous than a mosque.

I mean, seriously, a statue of Bin Laden I would protest, but a mosque? There's no connection between the one and the other, my friend. Hey, if you're going to generalize, why not take it all the way to its logical conclusion and say it's religion's fault in general and ban any churches or synagogues in the area as well?

[bjobotts]

53. They were terrorists, criminals,Just like Italian mob doesn't represent Italy call 'em Muslim mob

[bjobotts]

54. Refuse to let terrorists dictate our Behavior.They want us to blame Islam.

People objecting to building a Mosque at this site are patsies for OBL. It's equivalent to saying we can't build a Christian church a few blocks away from the Oklahoma Federal Building blown up by a "Christian" terrorist. or blaming Christianity for the terrorists acts of criminals who happened to be Christians doing what they called God's bidding, like the Dr. Tiller killers, O'Reilly and the guy who fired the pistol.

Haven't we seen this before only it was against the Jews. These obvious racist goobers have never even been inside a Mosque Civic center which is comparable to the YMCA.
Would these people be blocking a YMCA if it were being built a few blocks away from the federal bldg. in Oklahoma that Tim McVeigh blew up? He was a Christian terrorist but no one is demanding a war with Christians.
These people are too stupid to see they are acting exactly like OBL was directing them, just like Bush proving to the world we are what the terrorists claimed...hypocrites who refuse to face our own hypocrisy. When we("we" meaning corporate America) want something we make the people who have it enemies so we can justify taking it from them.
Americans have been kept in the dark as to why we were attacked and that our efforts to be at war with terrorism merely increases the number of terrorists.
No matter what their religious beliefs, terrorists should be treated as criminals. We were lied into a war and we are being lied into blaming Islam for the acts of criminals.
One of the founding principles of of our Democracy is TOLERANCE, which allows for freedom of and from religion. These idiots bring to our nation the same thing Bush/Cheney brought to it,...fear, shame and divisiveness. Our saving grace is that they represent but a small loud mouthed portion of our citizenry.

[The Wielding Truth]

56. This center is not in the WTC and even if it were, aren't we bigger than this?

Aren't we beyond any comments that could be made by foolish fearsome folk?
This is the land of the free and the home of the brave. We hold the freedom to be Americans.Don't forget that!

I would not invite crazy harmful nuts into my home, but I would welcome respectful loving people of any religious background or no religious background. I have MORE to fear from those who wish to curtail the freedoms of other Americans.

It's time to grow-up,be brave, and remember that all law-biding citizens can maintain our rights to live free in the USA.

[Name removed]

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[stuart68]

61. Hate to argue, but no they can't

There are many many examples where property owners are prohibited from "doing what they want", with some property even being confiscated.

And for the record, it think it is in poor taste. Appearances do still matter. There is also a way to do this as a form of outreach, which would sway my opinion.

[uppityperson]

77. A mosque insults the NYC Muslims who died on 9/11? Did you know there's a mosque a block away from

the site of this one?

I'd like to hear your answers to these questions.

[rhett o rick]

78. Oh Oh, Jack....you are just askin for it. Who was responsible for the attacks? Maybe not Muslim

extremest as Faux would wont us to believe. Oh yes and you want us to believe. You seem to agree with Faux. HMMMM

Personally I thin Cheney was responsible and there shouldnt be a fucking Halliburton center anywhere near.

You my "friend" are not a progressive. You my "friend" are a DLC fucking idiot or just a low life repuke.

You want to restrict where they can have a community center? You want to make the decision? Restrict means anti-freedom, you idiot.

[Axle_techie]

82. Well dang you for having your own opinion...

Dang you to heck.

[OmahaBlueDog]

84. So, Christians shouldn't be allowed to build a church near the Murrah Federal Building?

After all, it was fundamentalist Christians who blew it up.

[Douglas Carpenter]

6. as Mayor Bloomberg put it so well:

"The World Trade Centre Site will forever hold a special place in our City, in our hearts. But we would be untrue to the best part of ourselves – and who we are as New Yorkers and Americans – if we said 'no' to a mosque in lower Manhattan.

"Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11 and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values – and play into our enemies' hands – if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists – and we should not stand for that.

"For that reason, I believe that this is an important test of the separation of church and state as we may see in our lifetime – as important a test – and it is critically important that we get it right.

"On September 11, 2001, thousands of first responders heroically rushed to the scene and saved tens of thousands of lives. More than 400 of those first responders did not make it out alive. In rushing into those burning buildings, not one of them asked 'What God do you pray to?' 'What beliefs do you hold?'

"The attack was an act of war – and our first responders defended not only our city but also our country and our Constitution. We do not honour their lives by denying the very Constitutional rights they died protecting. We honour their lives by defending those rights – and the freedoms that the terrorists attacked.

"Of course, it is fair to ask the organisers of the mosque to show some special sensitivity to the situation – and in fact, their plan envisions reaching beyond their walls and building an interfaith community. By doing so, it is my hope that the mosque will help to bring our city even closer together and help repudiate the false and repugnant idea that the attacks of 9/11 were in any way consistent with Islam. Muslims are as much a part of our city and our country as the people of any faith and they are as welcome to worship in lower Manhattan as any other group. In fact, they have been worshipping at the site for the better part of a year, as is their right.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/aug/03/michael-bloomberg-ground-zero-mosque

[liberal_at_heart]

15. Mayor Bloomberg is absolutely right

Building an interfaith community and reaching out to the peace loving Muslims is the only way to diminish the terrorits efforts.

[spanone]

7. B

[malaise]

57. Brother it won't be long before

I make my next DU wreath. I just hope I'm here for the homily from the Moderator. Ubiquitous is the word. :evilgrin:

[unblock]

8. how is a mosque a few blocks away from ground zero an insult but a starbucks or whatever is not?

the mosque is in no way related to the 19 hijackers or anyone else involved in the 9/11 attacks.

the only thing the even superficially have in common is that they both claim, broadly, to be practicioners of the islamic religion, but even that ignores the vast differences with religions.

i am jewish but have very little in common with the orthodox jews in israel who throw stones at people who work on shabbat. they are effectively practicing a different religion as far as i'm concerned, and (missing the entire point, to boot).


would a christian church be considered an insult? hardly, yet plenty of jews and muslims in those buildings were killed on 9/11.

and is using that space for a commercial enterprise like a starbucks or macy's or movie theater somehow better suited and less offensive?

and what's the geographical limit on sensitivity to ground zero? is 10 blocks ok but 2 not? should we ban all mosques from manhattan entirely? what about d.c., remember the pentagon was hit on 9/11 as well. there's actually an islamic cleric who leads prayers INSIDE THE PENTAGON, yet no one seems to have a problem with this.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/08/05/muslims_infiltrate_pentagon/

the whole thing is very bigotted, frankly, and a huge and pointless insult to american muslims, including the families of the innocent muslims who perished on 9/11.

[liberal_at_heart]

14. you make a very good point

Peace loving Muslims have nothing in common with those who are responsible for the 9/11 attacks. It makes absolutely no sense to punish people for someone else's crimes.

[Turborama]

17. Or the strip joint that's also 2 blocks away.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/07/the-ground-zero-strip-club.html

Personally, I think the people who are complaining about the community center would prefer it if there were no Mosques within the "hallowed ground" that is the United States of America, period.

[Turborama]

20. It just so happens

That my assertion above has been proven to be correct: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8901467

[pinboy3niner]

52. Bingo! Temecula, CA is not far enough away from Ground Zero?

The bigoted objections remain, only the goalposts of the rationale are shifted.

[Hissyspit]

10. "poor taste"

Being bigoted is in "poor taste."

"insult to the memory of those who died"

You mean the Muslims who died?

It's not a mosque, it's not at Ground Zero, and there's plenty of other stuff in the area of the building, including strip clubs.

[Tansy_Gold]

11. I'm probably gonna screw up this response, but I'm gonna do it anyway

i think you're totally wrong, davidinalameda. I don't think placing a mosque or a cultural center or a YMMA near "ground zero" is in any more poor taste than putting it anywhere else. For the following reasons --

1. Not counting the 19 hijackers, not all those killed on 9/11 were white american christians. No religion should have a 9/11 monopoly.

2. The thoroughly fucked-up American response to 9/11 was to invade two countries, neither of which actually had anything to do with events beyond, at best, giving shelter to the organization that carried out the attack. As a result, thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands of innocent Muslim men, women, children have been slaughtered. They, too, are victims of 9/11.

3. We Americans, who enshrined the separation of church and state in the "bill of rights" amended to our Constitution, should be bigger than petty, childish, infantile cliquishness. All that does is prove that the terrorists were right -- we DO hate Muslims and we DO discriminate against them and we DON'T trust them and we really don't consider them real human beings like us real (white christian) Americans.



What good does it do us, any of us, to stomp our feet and say "you can't play/pray here, this is MY proppity" like bratty children?

Let them build it. And let us hope that someday, when we have finally withdrawn all our troops and mercenaries and contractors and "advisors" from Iraq and Afghanistan, someday they will allow us to build whatever memorials we want to build to those who have lost their lives in such wasteful folly.



Tansy Gold, atheist, NTY

[Violet_Crumble]

25. I don't think you screwed up at all, and I hope DavidAlameda thinks about what's been said n/t

[Maine-ah]

12. how many people have Christians killed?

yet, there is a church on almost every corner.

[liberal_at_heart]

19. Boy you're not kidding there.

There are probably three dozen Christian churches in my city and yet I have to drive an hour into a different city to go to my nearest Buddhist temple. We do however have one very lovely Hindu temple in my city. We have a pretty large Hindu population, not as large as the Christian population but large enough that they built a temple. It's beautiful. I heard that Julia Roberts just became a Hindu.

[6000eliot]

28. Why is it "poor taste" and how is it "an insult?"

Unless of course you blame all Muslims for what happened on 9/11. Which makes you a bigot. EOM.

[1monster]

36. Even to those victims of 9/11 who were Muslim? And I'm not talking about the perpetrators.

[ThomThom]

40. not all that died were American Christians

the site should be a memorial like in Oklahoma City and the rest of the city should go on as usual. To project outward is fake outrage. If republicons were told they couldn't build what they wanted, where they wanted, they would be outraged.

[Posteritatis]

42. Please explain to us how a structure Sufis are building is an insult to anyone's memory.

For bonus points, tell us precisely how far away Muslims should be allowed to build things from the WTC.

Don't give me the "I'm not saying they should be banned from doing it" bullshit, either; you obviously believe there's a certain minimum distance that is alright, so share that distance with the rest of us.

[xocet]

44. Ok....

Great idea. Let's remove all religious institutions to a safe and respectful distance of k miles from Ground Zero.



:sarcasm:

[northernlights]

45. how is a mosque an insult?

Seriously, I want to understand how a mosque is any more of an insult than a christian church would be an insult in any of the many, many "ground zeros" where we've dropped bombs all over the world?

[JerseygirlCT]

48. You're very wrong

And reflecting an unfair bias against an entire faith because a handful of people who espoused a radical version of that faith caused an awful act of terrorism.

The only way to fight radical fundamentalism - of any faith - is to increase understanding and eliminate the acceptance of this sort of bigotry.

[keroro gunsou]

50. a few nutcases

attacked us, not an entire religion.

[iamthebandfanman]

55. lol!!!! n/t

[butterfly77]

67. Aren't the graves..

of slaves buried there too?

[noamnety]

72. You must be really pissed about the giant jesus statue

that went up across the street from the oklahoma city national memorial.



Or does it not bother you so much for some reason?

[verges]

85. It's two blocks away.

Where does the Sacred Ring around ground zero end? And you may want to look at the first amendment regarding te freedom of religion.

[alarimer]

88. So what about the mosque in the Pentagon?

People died there too.
Not to mention the several dozen worship facilities of all kinds already present in NYC.

The WTC site is not "sacred" ground; there is no such fucking thing. This was a crime. Most crime scenes do not become "sacred" and this one shouldn't either.

[chimpymustgo]

89. Oh pulleeze. Y'all have got to get over your racism.

[Capitalocracy]

51. +1

:toast:

[Lucian]

26. -1

[eggplant]

59. No, it cant.

Oh, come on. There's a freaking mosque inside the Pentagon. Nobody seems too concerned about that.

And let's not forget just how many innocent Muslims died in the attack: http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm

Finally, would you oppose a YMCA there because all of the attackers were male?

[hay rick]

86. I saw a bumper sticker today

on the gate of a huge, new pickup truck. It said:

I LEARNED EVERYTHING I NEED TO KNOW ABOUT ISLAM ON 9-11

I'm sure the driver of the pickup shares your sentiment about the proximity of the mosque to "Ground Zero." I expect he also thinks any mosque within 4,000 miles is also too close. Question for you: how close do you think is NOT too close? Where do you draw your line? Where does freedom of religion resume?

Freedom of religion is one of the essential pillars of the America which I have always cherished. Without that radical freedom, this country is no longer my America- it is just another place that commands neither my loyalty or respect.

[Raster]

4. An true insult to Ground Zero would be a statue of Darth cheney*

Project for a New American Century

"While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein ...
"the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor ...
... advanced forms of biological warfare that can "target" specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool."
-- Rebuilding America’s Defenses, September 2000, Project for a New American Century www.newamericancentury.org

signed by Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Richard Perle, Scooter Libby, et al.

[6000eliot]

29. We don't need one.

We're obviously living with his legacy. This reaction is proof of that.

[Raster]

31. Boy, ain't that the truth!

:kick:

[bherrera]

21. Maybe you should consider religious freedom

Religious freedom is very important. If you Americans begin to abuse muslims the way some have proposed, then you will become a country where freedom no longer exists. The American right wing led by Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh is a true enemy of freedom. Those who support their ideas, should be aware they become the friends of the 21st century version of nazi germany.

[Douglas Carpenter]

37. Fareed Zakaria responds to ADL

link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x492809

[Douglas Carpenter]

38. Jewish vigil supporting Muslim cultural center in Lower Manhattan

link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8898508


/

[me b zola]

62. K&R

[me b zola]

63. K&R

[jimlup]

68. B ... There is no debate

Those who oppose the mosque are against the 1st amendment and they are "anti-American".

[unkachuck]

87. definitely: b ....n/t