I Took my teenage son to see :"Restrepo" last night (Afghanistan)

[Liberation Angel]

This war is Obama's now and it is a slaughter.

Why do we tolerate support for this war?

Why do we support Obama when he is allowing this clusterf*ck to continue?

Where are the real pacifist progressives?

Are they here at DU?

I do not understand.

Why?

We should be raising hell

and trying to stop this war.


Yet we do not.

And more people, like Vietnam, are dying every day for the BushNazi war.

[Skittles]

1. everyone needs to see that movie

I saw it last week and....well, it stays with you :cry:

[mix]

2. K&R nt

[sandnsea]

3. The war protesters are out in my town

Have you looked to see where your local groups are protesting?

Why do you assume everyone who is a progressive must necessarily be a pacifist?

[sabrina 1]

4. Why do you suppose you need to be a pacifist to

oppose war crimes? You don't even have to be a progressive to oppose war crimes such as the slaughter this OP reports which is only one of thousands of such atrocities, you just have to be a decent human being.

Do you have any opinion on the slaughter of those babies in the name of the American people or are you just here to lecture those who actually do care?

Maybe you should try being a little hysterical over some of the atrocities that are going on in this world. Maybe if everyone was a bit hysterical (I'm using that word as much as I can because I know it's one of your favorites) our corrupt, war criminal leaders would start being a little afraid of slaughtering women and children in our name.

Why don't you link to some anti-war activities since you're so smart? When Bush was president we didn't have to ask, they were always posted, with great enthusiasm.

But now this war belongs to Dems and I guess the dead and wounded don't hurt so much when the president has a 'D' after his name.

[bahrbearian]

6. The anwser is in the avatar

[sabrina 1]

7. Okay, I got it now

How truly sad, I really did think that kind of blind loyalty was only to be found on the right. To be able to ignore the kind of crimes that are being committed? Unbelievable. I guess there is no party for those who still believe in justice and the rule of law in this country.

[Liberation Angel]

17. There is a party for us (more or less)

don't let one bad apple spoil the whole bunch

a-holes can be dems or republicans and even greens.

But as a party there is more who believe in real justice, peace and the law on the left.

And dems are far more to the left than the fascost republican party.

Sure there are farther left and more progressiv eparties, but they aren't being effective in winning elections so the Dems are the best we have (sad as that is based on current policies). But the Dems ARE much much better than the alternative to their right.

[sabrina 1]

27. Well, I agree that the Dems are better than Republicans.

There are good Democrats but not enough yet to be able to have much effect in stopping the course this country is on. For those suffering under these appalling policies, there isn't the luxury of time but I am hoping that people will begin to realize we cannot relax just because we 'won' and that more will start speaking out.

[sandnsea]

16. You have to be a pacifist to oppose war crimes??

But not a progressive? Again, calm down so you make sense.

You also need to understand the definition of a war crime. A tragic loss of civilian life from an aerial bombing is tragic. Not a war crime.

As do posting anti-war activities, my point is that the OP ought to do that because the anti-war activities are out there. You could do. Why yell at me to do it if you're the one that wants to see those posts?

And yes I do care about the dead and wounded. I care about those killed by American forces and I care about those killed when we leave areas which is why I support a strategic withdrawal regardless of the overall war strategy. I care that we abandoned those people as well, and only hope that we have replaced the military with a strong USAID effort which would have been preferable to begin with.

I also care about the 74 people killed in the Uganda bombing, and the ones in Sri Lanka, Jakarta, Cotabato City, Chechnya, and on and on. As well as all of those in Shiite/Sunni bombings inside Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan that are not part of or directed towards the US military.

Again, you need to calm down and consider the entire picture. Just ranting against the evil US isn't going to solve it because even if we brought every troop home from every place in the world, other larger countries would just move in and create the same strife because that's just the way global politics works.

[Liberation Angel]

23. Bombing civilians and collateral damage is murder and a war crime

Yeah

It is.

And nobody can really "replace" the US as an imperialist power and "create the same strife". WE are the largest and most powerfu; NO ONE can do it like us. Others may be worse and kill more, but it will not be the same strife: PLUS we would then have real grounds to go in to protect civilians. Now we are killing more civilians than anyone else and we are turning the whole shebang into a kill zone.

It IS criminal

[sandnsea]

24. Cite the law that was broken

Civilians killed in war as "collateral damage" is a tragedy. It is not, in and of itself, a war crime.

The strife in Afghanistan was created by the USSR in the first place. So no, we aren't the only ones who create strife.

Others "may be worse and kill more"??? But because it's not "the same strife", it's better???

I would prefer a humanitarian aid approach in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I have my personal beliefs as to why we don't have that approach but I don't say them because it's too divisive for DU. I only hope Obama starts listening to John Kerry more than, well, the ones he is listening to now.

But it does not mean that the war is criminal, although it's certainly possible individual incidents are.

I think that hysterically broadbrushing the entire thing actually makes it harder to highlight the true war crimes when they happen. And it would really be nice if we had more attention on what the Taliban is doing to local citizens as well. The whole picture. You can't really get to a workable solution any other way.

[polly7]

30. 'War' was not declared against Afghanistan.

Congress never declared war, nor did the UN Security Council. 9/11 was not an act of 'war by the country of Afghanistan' but of a few zealots with hate in their hearts, a horrible criminal act. Using the intelligence offered by the rest of the world into the planners of it would have done a h*ll of a lot more than invading a whole country, and it's innocents, which did not authorize anything. 15 of the 19 people who committed the attacks were from Saudi Arabia, and yet Afghanistan was invaded. Collateral damage does not apply here. This is not war ........ except by the war machine on human beings on both sides. imo.

[sandnsea]

31. NATO Intl Security Assistance Force

in cooperation with the UN. We have every legal right in the world to be there, and in fact were invited there by the Northern Alliance. We are there because Bin Laden is there and the Taliban allows that country to be used as a safe haven for terrorists. That was true when US embassies in Africa were bombed, it was true when the Cole was bombed, it was true when the WTC was bombed, and it remains true today. I supported the attack then, I support it now, and I will support it until Afghanistan and Pakistan are either no longer safe havens or are securing their countries for themselves. Every individual and every country has simply got to have boundaries that cannot be crossed and flying airplanes into buildings is one of them for me.

http://www.isaf.nato.int/images/stories/File/Placemats/100804%20Placemat.pdf

[Liberation Angel]

33. I would argue that the Geneva Convention prohibits mass murder

Collateral damage is BS.

This is murder and genocide.

As far as the legality of these wars: they are based on lies: WE started them. We financed the Taliban and Al Qaeda. We attacked Afghanistan when the hijackers were Saudis. Bin Laden was a Bush/CIA operative from the evidence I have seen and believe.

There is nothing :hysterical" about my position: We are murdering civilians and these are war crimes and maybe only time will tell if there is any court with jurisdiction who can reach these crimes.

I have my own views, as you do, on what ought to be done. But that is not the issue in this thread, really.

The issue for me IS that the war itself is criminal in so many ways that the whole thing IS a war crime.

THAT is different from saying that many in the Taliban are dangerous and criminal and morally reprehensible and that something needs to be done by the international community to protect Afghani citizens from the leaders there who are violent fundamentalists. I feel this way too wherever violent fundamentalists are killing and ruining lives and depriving people of human rights.

But war is not the answer.

Only love can conquer hate (Marvin Gaye)

But I do support, for the record, safe zones protected by military means to PROTECT citizens.

Obama is just bringing a war to a country following in Bush's footsteps in policies which to me are criminally insane and heinous.

And BTW, there are legal steps being taken to have the US courts declare certain actions Obama has approved as illegal. A Court must decide that.

But I do not need a court to know when I watch this film that we are committing crimes against humanity on a major scale and based on lies and deception and the need of the ultra rich fascists to make money from human misery and death.

[sabrina 1]

25. Here, I'll post it again for you.

You

Why do you assume everyone who is a progressive must necessarily be a pacifist?

Me:

Why do you suppose you need to be a pacifist to oppose war crimes?

You don't even have to be a progressive to oppose war crimes .... you just have to be a decent human being.

You

You have to be a pacifist to oppose war crimes??

But not a progressive? Again, calm down so you make sense.

Check your own last sentence in the above excerpt and apply to yourself. It is good advice.

As for the slaughter of innocents, it IS a crime. The killing of women just before the last atrocity, then the attempted cover up by U.S. soldiers who removed bullets from the bodies, reportedly while one of the victims was still alive, yes, these are all crimes.

But we do not hold war criminals accountable so the crimes will continue until maybe someone else stops us.

Your final piece of diatribe is hardly worth addressing, but it is such a common talking point of those who would defend war crimes, that I will use it as an example of why the many good people in this country cannot stop the U.S. government from its brutal foreign incursions into other people's lands.

Again, you need to calm down and consider the entire picture. Just ranting against the evil US isn't going to solve it because even if we brought every troop home from every place in the world, other larger countries would just move in and create the same strife because that's just the way global politics works.

Other larger countries would NOT move in and create the same strife. For several reasons.

China eg, did NOT move into Iraq to take its oil, nor did Russia. They signed contracts to buy rights to the oil as a means of getting what they wanted. Then WE, the U.S. threw a major temper tantrum and bombarded the country, killed over a million human beings, tortured, maimed and displaced millions more, installed a puppet government and got them to hand over over 80% of their oil resources to Global Corps.

And while the U.S. is currently agitating for a proxy war between Colombia and that other huge oil-producing country, Venezuela, arming the corrupt Colombian government, China once again is quietly negotiating for the oil it needs with no threats of violence or invasion, while the U.S. is saber rattling once again in that region of the world.

War is a relic of the past. Most big countries know enough to try to avoid it and to avoid the horrors of Colonialism as they are very familiar with the results. The U.S. however is run by a bunch of oligarchs, whose ideologies are rooted in the bloody past that most evolved nations have already experienced and do not want to return to.

But with people like you to encourage these medieval tactics by excusing them they way you do, they will continue to kill and torture, rather than negotiate and buy the resources we need as other large nations are doing. They thank you for your support, just as Bush thanked his supporters.

I'm glad you oppose the slaughter, sorry that you are excusing it. But no matter what you think, it is not and was not necessary. No big bad Mushroom cloud was headed our way from Iraq. And no one else was about to be foolish enough to invade that country.

Any country that in the past considered an invasion, did not do so because they were afraid of the awesome power of the U.S. Now, they see the U.S. bogged down in two wars that it has taken years to try to 'win' and we don't look so awesome anymore. We look vulnerable. So aside from how wrong it was, it was stupid strategy from a National Security position.

And worst of all, the U.S. has lost its moral authority. If you manage to calm down enough to focus on some facts rather than the rightwing neocon propaganda you seem to be buying into, you would, as I told you before, avoid making some of the ridiculous statements you make.

[Liberation Angel]

34. +1000000

nt

[Liberation Angel]

10. Good! I marched/camped with IVAW at the Democratic Convention in Denver

IMHO local protests don't do too much, but higher profile activism is necessary.

That is why I have a youtube site with collected videos on activism, IVAW, fascism and the practice of nonviolent resistance to fascism.

I am a firm believer in self defense and protection of the innocent. I will not turn the other cheek when innocents are slaughtered. I can turn MY cheek but I will not turn away from violence against others, especially loved ones but also the innocent and those unable to protect themselves.

But as a political tool for change violence is useless and worse than useless; it is counterproductive.

As for your last question, nonviolence is the only progressive path in my opinion. Pacifism is the only true progressive path and love the only true course.

I believe in Satyagraha, passive resistance, nonviolent resistance.

But even as a pacifist I understand that in order to have peace you must have security/safety. And when there are violent assh*les (i.e ruthless and murderous fascists) opposing you, you must be well armed intellectually. physically, emotionally, and strategically and you must be well resourced.

And the violent course we are taking in Afghanistan and much of the rest of the world is anything but progressive or even effective at bringing security.

If peace is not the ultimate goal then it is of no use to anyone and things will only get much much worse.

My youtube channel is: www.youtube.com/user/LiberationAngels

[sabrina 1]

5. I haven't seen the movie yet. But I've been following this war

through independent journalists since it began, even when it was the forgotten war.

Why doesn't anyone care now that Democrats are in charge? I don't know, I asked that question in this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x492832 which so far has only on rec. while the return of a previously banned user is at the top of the rec list.

If you listen to the victims in the video posted in that thread it would break your heart. But look at the rec list to see where the priorities of the 'left' are now. I remember when a video like that would have had hundreds of outraged posts. But, now I realize it was really all about party politics. I made the mistake of thinking that it was about the terrible injustices being inflicted on human beings in our name. So disappointing.

[Hannah Bell]

8. +100

[ThomCat]

9. All the things we as a party cared about when the right was in charge,

All the things we all were unified in our outrage about, now the vast majority of people don't give a damn about because Obama is the one doing it.

It's just fine to most people if we are over there committing atrocities and war crimes, slaughtering innocent civilians for corporate profits.

It is just fine to most people if we are destroying any possible chance we had of ever advancing womens rights in that region because we have destroyed the infrastructure, reduced people to destitution, and supported warlords who openly own people, and put reactionary forces back into power.

It is just fine to most people if we replanted the opium fields and rebuilt the opium trade and supported the drug trafficking because it was the only way to jump start the local economy. It is also just fine with most people that all the money from this went to warlords and supported corruption. WE created more poverty instead of alleviating it.

As far as most people are concerned, it seems that as long as there is a charismatic democrat in charge, that's all they really care about. Our government can keep doing ANYTHING that was a fucking OUTRAGE when republicans did it. We wanted all the republicans put in jail when they did this shit. But as long as it's a democrat doing it, most people think it's all just fine, and there's no reason to get worked up about it.

In fact, most people just don't see any reason to care enough to even pay attention to anything bad that our government might be doing as long as there is a democrat in charge. They just don't want to know.

How fucking sad is that?

:cry:

The republicans are corrupt in that they want to do all this stuff, and want to know that it's being done. They want to know that their government is committing all these outrages and think they are the right thing to do against brown people around the world.

A hell of a lot of democrats are corrupt in that they just don't care if we do the same outrages as long it is a democrat doing them. It's all fine, as long as we don't have a republican in office doing it. They just worry that if we had a republican in office then the outrages would happen at home too, against them, and couldn't be ignored any more, and it's only then that they finally get pissed off.

There are core democrats still, who have always been against the wars
and against bloated military spending
and against subsidizing profitable corporations
and against the war against poor people in all it's many forms
and for diplomacy first and foremost in every situation
and for advancing and not compromising the civil rights of women, LGBT folks, immigrants, and other vulnerable communities
and for making healthcare a right instead of a commodity
and for restraining and regulating the speculators on Wall Street, and in every potentially dangerous industry

But I don't think the total number of people who are core democrats anymore is more than 10% of the party.

Far too many people have bought into the idea that elections are all that matter, not standing up for issues and working for actual changes. Far too many people are happy with a shiny PR campaign and happy photo Ops that tell them "Mission Accomplished" instead of real results that actually do accomplish any kind of mission. :(

[Liberation Angel]

14. You make some excellent points, but I have to disagree with you on some of them

It is NOT at all that people do not care about these wars and the violence.

They simply have very little clue (most folks) as to what can be done about it. NOBODY is just fine with the killing and deaths of our soldiers and "collateral damage":. Dems in particular are horrified about it and many are turning against Obama because of it.

10% is really the number of activist real dems (if it is even that high). Most Dems simpoly do not know HOW to approach the problems you raise.

They feel powerless (and this, to a large extent on these particular issues is Obama's fault). HE has the bully pulpit of the presidency. OBAMA has the juice to end these wars and constrain the fascist powers that be to a MUCH greater extent than he is doing.

BUT we do NOT have much choice in terms of what we as activists can do. We MUST protest loud and strong and KEEP at it daily.

We MUST let La Luta Continua for peace freedom and justice!

But we cannot BLAME most democrats pr most people for not knowing what to do. They (we) NEED leadership not blame.

Obama should be leading us on this and he is failing. But his opposition is VERY powerful and dangerous. And we cannot encourage the fantasy that Obama has ENOUGH juice to do these things without our support and neverending pressure from the left.

[Liberation Angel]

11. I went and rec'd your video post on the NATO lies about civilian casualties

Last night I spent part of the evening at a BBQ with a young Iraq vet whoi is getting ready to redeploy. I told him about RESTREPO and sent him to my youtube site to get more info and see the trailers and some of the interviews which I have in my playlists.

He was a beautiful young man whose life is dedicated to these wars, and yet who is almost totally unaware of the info which is out there to help him even understand what he is involved in. And he was appreciative that I cared and understood his situation and perspective and that I shared info with him.

anyway - there is more at my youtube site (scroll through my favorites and archives for clips from Restrepo and other good stuff on this war and others):

www.youtube.com/user/LiberationAngels

I plan to begin uploading some of my own videos, interviews etc soon. So subscribe or friend me there to get updates.

[sabrina 1]

28. Thank you. Your story of the soldier reminds me of when

we went to see Michael Moore's 'Fahrenheit 9/11'. On the way out, one of my friends got involved in a conversation with a young marine whose ship was in the harbor that day for the 4th of July. He told her he was 'shocked' at what he had seen in the movie and would have to 'rethink' much of what he had thought he knew.

He said he would try to verify the information eg, the relationship between the Bush family and the Bin Ladens. That really shocked him, as it did many when they first heard it. He had tears in his eyes. I remember hoping he would be getting out soon as it would have been far too difficult for him to have to go to fight in a war he now had lost faith in.

[G_j]

15. here's a GD version:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8898749

[Liberation Angel]

18. Thanks - that is really important

appreciate it!

[sandnsea]

20. I recommended your video

I appreciate anybody who brings facts to the discussion. We need more of this, much more.

[Liberation Angel]

22. Absolutely. Thank you!

and do check out more at my youtube site.

[sabrina 1]

29. Thank you, I appreciate that and forgive my

comments if they seem harsh to you. But after reading about these and so many other atrocities, sometimes I do become a little hysterical that we cannot help those people. I do not know what we can do other than calling members of Congress and not giving up.

[Liberation Angel]

12. Clarification: I support Obama in many things, but his war policies are f*cked up and dangerous

These wars are NOT making the world a safer place and is decimating our economy for the benefit of the Fascist Fourth Reich (BFEE) Big Oil, Big Nukes, Halliburton, BP, GE, Weaponms Manfucaturers and the war profiteer elite families who controlo Wall Street (predominanlty the WASP elites with collaborators of all stripes)

We MUST hold Obama accountable, however, for the war policies and needless deaths and genocide because of all men on Earth only he has the actual juice to stop this mass murder, insanity and plunder.

I support Obama in MANY things.

But on these wars he is just acting like Bush and all the other Nazis before Bush in our history of power.

(Caveat: YES, Obama's policies and approach are different in many respects from Bush: but as Cornell West put it: Obama is a WAR President, and this is now his corrupt and unjust war and he needs to end it NOW for the sake of ALL humanity, for his own soul's sake, and for the karma of his own family, his children, who will suffer their entire lives if he succumbs to the attraction of the dark forces which see perpetual war as the cookie jar for profit and gain.

[Liberation Angel]

13. You can see excerpts from Restrepo and more interviews at my youtube channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/LiberationAngels

The interviews are in my Favorites playlist right now, but look around and there are many other useful and informative videos which i recommend for those who feel like knowing any of this stuff.

I realize it is painful and we are in active denial and/or in a state of psychic numbing about many things.

But the powers that be WANT us to be numb and unable to watch and understand and learn.

So I try to use the Youtube platform and my playlists to collect all the best and most useful info I can find to promote peace and justice for all of us and for the Earth itself.

I plan to begin downloading my own documentary interviews while I work on a multimedia piece/docs etc so please subscribe or friend me there for upsates and check out the channels I have subscribed to. Democracy now is there, IVAW (Iraq Veterans Against the War, as well as some other really cool stuff (or, just chill and listen to my music faves like Marvin Gay and Gil Scott Heron and the Ginger Ninjas Bicycle Band who are/were all political activists in their own art/music.

[sabrina 1]

19. Thank you so much for all you are doing.

I will go look at your utube channel when I get back in a little while and respond to your other comments.

Will subscribe definitely and friend you on Utube.

I have to run but will bbl. Am looking forward to seeing the clips on your channel from the movie.

[Liberation Angel]

21. Y'r Welcome! And there's much more there to look at too

check out my playlists.

Educational, archives, CT, and some awesome music too.

[sabrina 1]

26. Thank you. I have visited your channel

and it is very interesting. You are right that we are in denial and probably numb to the horrors of these wars. I wish we could do more to promote peace and justice. It's worth not giving up on though.

[G_j]

32. thanks also

:yourock:

[Liberation Angel]

35. wow

I rock!

That is really good to know.

Cause others think i suck so the positive feedback is way cool.