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If Physical Books Are Dead in Five Years, How Do the Poor Find Books?

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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:15 AM
Original message
If Physical Books Are Dead in Five Years, How Do the Poor Find Books?
As the slow-motion destruction of our nation's infrastructure continues due to deficits über alles hysteria, we find this very depressing article from Camden, NJ about the proposed eradication of its public library system:

In a city where less than a third of people have high-speed Internet service in their homes, according to the research group CamConnect, libraries allow people to go online, do schoolwork, and look for jobs. Closing the three branches would end the more than 150,000 annual visits - along with the daily chess games and children's book readings. During extreme weather, the facilities provide a respite for the homeless....
Simmons is an unemployed single mother who relies on the library to apply for jobs; many workplaces now only accept online applications. She was busy Thursday applying for a job at Old Navy in the Cherry Hill Mall.

Next to her sat Timothy Thomson, 32, who was laid off from Verizon last year. He comes to the library twice a week to check out self-help books and apply for jobs. Despite having a bachelor's degree from Rutgers-Camden and recently completing culinary training at DeVry University, he said, he's still having trouble finding work.

And the plight of the poor is what disturbs me about this prediction by Nicholas Negroponte:

The physical book is dead, according to Negroponte. He said he realizes that's going to be hard for a lot of people to accept. But you just have to think about film and music. In the 1980s, the writing was on the wall that physical film was going to die, even though companies like Kodak were in denial. He then asked people to think about their youth with music. It was all physical then. Now everything has changed.
By "dead," he of course doesn't mean completely dead. But he means that digital books are going to replace physical books as the dominant form. His argument is related to his One Laptop per Child Foundation. On those laptops, he can include hundreds or thousands of books. If you think about trying to ship that many physical books to the emerging world for each child, it would be impossible, he reasons.

"People will say 'no, no, no' -- of course you like your libraries," Negroponte said. But he cited the report that sales of books for the Kindle recently surpassed sales of hardcover books.

We can't even bring ourselves to provide assistance to the long-term unemployed. Does anyone really think that we will provide a computer to every household? And will internet access be subsidized for the poor and unemployed?*

The great promise of our libraries is that, if you can physically get there (and for some services, even that isn't required), you have access to the materials, rich or poor. And in the 21st century, that also means the internet, for those who can't afford to access it. Personally, I use the library all the time, and it seems a pretty bustling place to me--if anything, it would appear library use is soaring, at least in Boston.

Books need to be accessible to all, not just those able to afford internet access and Kindle. To declare the need for libraries dead is just stupid technobabble.

http://scienceblogs.com/mikethemadbiologist/2010/08/if_books_are_dead_in_five_year.php

Here is the link about the closing of the Camden Library...

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_jersey/20100806_Camden_preparing_to_close_library_system.html
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Wanet Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. They tried to close our library in Woodland CA
The people of our town just passed a dedicated sales tax to keep it open. I can't believe the City Council considered closing it. It is definitely a social class issue. Rich people don't need a library -- Poor people do. -- Wanet
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. So true
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. Reading books is the LAST thing this country wants its growing numbers of poor to do
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 10:23 AM by kenny blankenship
Watch TV. Watch Oprah read books on TV. That's close enough.
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. my guess is the books won't be any deader than records ...

As for libraries. I know my local one has already adapted with a huge amount of space for computers so anyone can use the web. To a huge DVD collection, CD collection etc... I think the library will adapt and as always it will most likely still have books. The largest area of books at my library is ironically in the children section. Which makes you think reading from multimedia is ok for adults, but not so hot for a 5 year old.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. The question is would you trust your 3 year old to use your electronic gadgets.
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 10:37 AM by dkf
Maybe you would if you were watching them like a hawk but not when you need to walk away for a second.

All I know is babies are very attracted to iPhone cases and like to try to chew on them.
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
76. i just bought a bunch of vinyl records!
and i listened to them all weekend.

so books will never die as long as there are nerds who collect!
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
5. I've been saying for a while that internet access is going to be our next civil rights battle.
I think that time is coming upon us rapidly.
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uncommon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. It will have to be once it is the only way to access information.
It will need to have free options available, just like libraries.
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Peregrine Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. Textbook publishers
have already announced that they are going to stop publishing hardcopy textbooks. So schools are going to either stay with aging texts or spend the money to get readers/tablets/laptops for each student.
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InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
7. I wouldn't ever want to lose real, physical books.
I'm not tempted at all by Kindle. I like a real book that you can read even if you don't have electricity to power up your batteries. A book that you can put bookmarks in if you want to go back to something later. A book where you can even make notes in the margins, if you're so inclined. A book you can lend to a friend, give away as a gift, or re-sell secondhand. There may be a place for electronic books, but in my own life it would be very limited. Give me the real thing.
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Hear, hear!
Couldn't agree more.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. I love electronic books more then physical books in many ways...
Our laptop and blackberry can last quite a while without electricity. We can read on those just fine even if we go several hours without being able to charge...which has never happened. We can bookmark if we need to as well. And aside from textbooks, I don't believe in marking in books. Just a big no-no as far as I'm concerned. If someone else wants to read we can email the text if we'd like...which we do on occasion.

The best benefit of all to electronic books is that they don't wear out. The pages won't get torn and my grandchildren can't write their graffiti.

I still enjoy regular books and I love going through a bookstore or library. Nothing can replace that. :)
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Phentex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
27. Not to mention lightweight! Saving kids backs and maybe healthcare costs
down the road.
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Retrograde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
60. They may not wear out, but
there's no guarantee the formats will always be the same. I can read books that are a century older than I am with no problems; I can't get information off of old electronic storage media without a lot of trouble.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. +1,000,000
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
24. Well I make notes on my ebooks
place bookmarks, fold the pages, and even are able to "lend them."

And trust me, we are moving that way... and textbooks are going that way in the next five years.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
25. ebook reader can do all that.
1) kindle is unlike a computer it uses very little power. The third generation only needs a charge once a month and the charge is tiny. About 5watts. To put that into perspective 1 KW (1000 watts) is about $0.10 worth of electricity. Thus kindle uses about half a penny of electricity a month.

2) You can make bookmarks even multiple bookmarks.

3) You can make notes, you can lookup words in the text either in dictionary or wikipedia.

4) There are over a million public domain books which can be downloaded for free on the kindle. A lifetime of reading.

4*) The kindle doesn't support it but other readers/formats support loaning ebooks. The technology is still in the infancy I expect a universable sellable/tradable/transferable/loanable format will evolve over time.

We are at the Commodore 64 stage of ereaders. In 10-20 years they will be even more powerful, even more capable, more universal, and much much cheaper.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
44. I'm a total book-hog, and until a few days ago I would've posted exactly
what you just posted.

But a lady at the hotel I was at had some reading device (wasn't a Kindle, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was), and I must admit, it was pretty nice. I had heard people talk about "forgetting" they are using one, or getting "lost" in it or whatever, and I thought that was a load of hogwash, but it's pretty much that way.

I have a LOT of books (and my kids have a LOT of books) and reading is a big part of our lives, and I can't imagine forever giving up the reassuring feeling of a book in my hands, but I can see where having one of these for traveling would be damned handy (as opposed to bringing along 3 or 4 books for a trip), especially a foreign trip where English books are rare or really expensive.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
10. Libraries can be so much more....

they can and need to be positioned as cornerstones of each community.

I'm not sure how to do so just yet, but this is one of my passions: Saving the libraries as one part of not only saving communities, but maintaining a haven for those who are in dire need of this space and services.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
11. 'Plutonomy' answer: 'who cares?'
Mind you that's not MY answer but it is theirs. Guaranteed.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
13. Why destroy the books? As much as I grieve for a large city library system to become
defunct, why not have a book sale and raise funds/provide the books to people who can't afford them?
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Books still only last so long until they wear out...
or something more up-to-date comes out. Libraries have been destroying books for years and that's not going to stop.

Our local library does sell what they can. What can't be sold they will leave out to give away. What remains after that gets sent to be recycled.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #15
52. I cry every time when the library is burned in "Fahrenheit 451".
"There must be something in books, things we can't imagine, to make a woman stay in a burning house; there must be something there. You don't stay for nothing."
- Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451, Part 1
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #52
68. I think what has saved books more than anything is going digital..
It gives more security that they won't be lost.
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LeftinOH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
16. Books don't require batteries; they don't break if you drop them; they are
completely free of electronic gadgets. For those reasons, they will never totally go away -thankfully.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
17. interesting bio on this guy--the younger brother of the infamous john
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 10:49 AM by niyad
Nicholas Negroponte

Nicholas is founder and chairman of the One Laptop per Child non-profit association. He is currently on leave from MIT, where he was co-founder and director of the MIT Media Laboratory, and the Jerome B. Wiesner Professor of Media Technology. A graduate of MIT, Nicholas was a pioneer in the field of computer-aided design, and has been a member of the MIT faculty since 1966. Conceived in 1980, the Media Laboratory opened its doors in 1985. He is also author of the 1995 best seller, Being Digital, which has been translated into more than 40 languages. In the private sector, Nicholas serves on the board of directors for Motorola, Inc. and as general partner in a venture capital firm specializing in digital technologies for information and entertainment. He has provided start-up funds for more than 40 companies, including Wired magazine.

http://web.media.mit.edu/~nicholas/

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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
18. In the future, then this period might become the dark ages...
... if historians who from another civilization/planet rummage through our data can't find anything that's non-electronic data, or even data that needs electronic devices to read, unlike books. They'll mostly find crap like advertising/packaging which won't tell them crap.

If we get to a point where the planet goes in to a stage like Mad Max or other futures without little or no power, how will we rebuild with no ability to "power anything up" to read old books, etc. to teach our kids then?
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #18
38. I'm all set to rebuild civilization: we have books on mathematics, geology,
biology, engineering, physics, chemistry, woodworking, metal working, construction, car repair, history, art, cooking, gardening and crafts. Nothing on spinning or weaving.

One question I have: while it's a good idea to be able to update text books, are other electronic books subject to editing; are we all going down Orwell's memory hole?
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
19. All this reminds me of Bill Hicks...
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 10:53 AM by walldude
and I quote: "I was in Nashville, Tennesee last year, after the show I went to a Waffle House, I'm not proud of it, I was hungry. And I'm alone, I'm eating and I'm reading a book, right? Waitress walks over to me,

“Tch tch tch tch. Hey, what you readin' for?”

Is that like the weirdest question you've ever heard? Not what am I reading, but what am I reading for. Well, godammit, you stumped me. Why do I read? Well... hmmm... I guess I read for a lot of reasons, and the main one, is so I don't end up, being a waffle waitress.

But then... this trucker in the next booth gets up, stands over me, and goes, "Well, looks like we got ourselves a reader." What the fuck's going on here? It's not like I walked into a clan rally in a Boy George outfit, godammit, it's a book!



This was damn near twenty years ago Hicks was on about this.

The powers that be are in the middle of an attack on our education. Not just schools but the internet, and books and libraries too. They want a population smart enough to cook, clean and run a cash register but too stupid to know that they are getting the shaft in a country where the rich perpetuate their status by keeping the poor as dumb and ignorant as possible.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. I have had similar experiences--always carry a book, and read wherever I am, including bars
and restaurants. One time, I was walking to my car with a stack of sunday papers, and a co-worker stopped me, and asked, "what are you going to do with all those papers?"

"hmmmmmm, what am I going to do with them? start a fire in my fireplace. . . .line the litter box. . . shred for the garden. . OH, I AM GOING TO READ THE DAMNED THINGS."
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #23
35. I know, I carry a book or magazine wherever I go... a habit I picked up
from my wife. On occasion people look at you like you are weird. Which I just don't get, because you'd probably see the same person at a movie theater or in front of the TV, and books are an infinitely better form of entertainment, not to mention information than either of those mediums.

One of my favorite places has become the bookstore. Even the big corporate stores have wised up, comfy chairs, coffee, wireless internet, no harassment if you want to sit and read. At least we still have a place to find like minded people.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #35
46. +1
I started doing the same ever since I read about Thomas Jefferson doing it...You never know when you'll have a long wait in line or whatever...
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
20. "there is not such a cradle of democracy upon this earth as the free public library-
this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."

Andrew Carnegie
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
21. First of all it will take 20-30 years for books to die off.
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 11:14 AM by Statistical
I also think they won't completely die off rather numbers will simply decline.

Second it doesn't take expensive computer & internet to use ebooks. The Kindle is $189 now (w/ lifetime free downloads of books). If you have internet it is only $139. By Christmas expect it to be $99. The technology is very cheap compared to a traditional computer. You could see $49 ereaders within a few years.

No reason a govt program couldn't subsidize readers for low income households. eBooks can be loaned. It is possible to have a libarary type system with ebooks. The library buys multiple copies of the same ebook. It can loan out books equal to the number of copies that are issued. Loans expire after 2 weeks and the copy becomes available for loaning again.

Libraries will always exist.... however they will change with the times.

I envision than in 100 years or so a library will be simply a large repository of data. The banks and banks of servers hidden from public view. It will be an archive and have digital links to other archives. Mostly the data will be digital but some surviving original paper texts will be available.

Walking into a public portion of the library would be walking into a large open space. Sunlights, indoor plants, and exposed wood create a tranquil place to read, learn, and collaborate. The library will be smaller than current building but seem larger because endless rows of books will be replaced by public terminals. There will be soft couches to read, desks & tables to collaberate, rooms to host group discussions, and librarians to assist users.

The library will combine digital books with archives, internet access, and links to scientific and academic research archives. People could read ebooks on public readers or use their own. ebooks could be used in the library are loaned out. There would be no need for a "checkout" process. Simply leaving the library with an ebook would result in it being loaned for 2 weeks. At end of two weeks the copy returns to the library for re-use.
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Phentex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. I agree with this. Libraries could have e-readers to loan...
Does anyone remember having to pay a deposit and have a credit card on file to rent a movie at the store? I do. We could not be trusted with the VHS tapes! Over time, they figured out that most people just wanted to watch and return and had no real interest in keeping or destroying the tape. Now libraries rent dvds for free. I think the same will happen with the e-readers.

And while e-books are catching on, there are still people who want to buy books. I agree it will take some time before they die off.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. My local public library already does that
they loan out Sony Readers
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Phentex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Wait! Even poor people?
That's cool! Maybe ours does too. I do know that the library is very well-used here and the internet section is always packed. I love libraries and I'd hate to see them disappear.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #30
50. Yes, even to poor people
they also loan out EBOOKS if you have your own device
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
29. Books don't compare to film.
Part of the explosion of digital photography was the cost savings. With film you had the price of the film and the price of developing. After you got your film developed you tossed x number of pictures that came out badly further increasing the costs. With Digital you can shoot an infinite number of photos, seeing the results instantly. You can also keep all of them to be sorted later and take the best of the best to be developed. It really was a natural progression for the amateur photographer.

Books on the other hand do not transfer quite so easily to electronic media. For one a battery will never die in a paperback while sitting on the beach all day. Additionally I can sit with a book for 16 hours straight with little eye fatigue. From the electronic readers I have used I can not say the same for them.
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Phentex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. I LOVE a good paperback at the beach!...
I hate the sun but I can sit under an umbrella with a good book for hours and not realize where the time has gone. The sound of the surf, a little breeze...heaven.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #29
39. What reader have you used? a laptop?
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 11:25 AM by Statistical
eink is non moving. It is simply black text on white pages. It doesn't move, doesn't flicker, doesn't have a backlight, or glare, or reflections. Unlike a paper book it can be sized to the perfect size for the person reading. Larger text for those with bad eyes, or smaller text to get more words per page.

I have spent entire weekends reading on a kindle without any eyestrain. I work on a pair of large monitors all day at work (and need to use eyedrops religiously). The idea of reading a book on a laptop, or cellphone, or ipad seems like cruel torture. An eink display is different. It really does have to be seen to get the full experience.

While ereaders have cost (minimal amount of electricity, falling reader overhead) so do paper books.
Paper books have printing costs, transportation cost, storage costs, retail space costs. Routinely only a fraction of books are sold for a profit. The bargin books are sold at a loss and finally some percentage is simply destroyed at a complete loss.
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Spike89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. Exactly right
I recently did a comparative review of the Kindle, Nook, iPad, and a hybrid e-ink device (entourage edge). The iPad is a great gadget, but it is a horrible reader for more than scanning text. The three e-ink devices on the other hand were extremely readable with little or no eyestrain. I think there is plenty of room for innovation remaining. I'd like to see solar charging ala' handheld calculators, foldable/expandable screens, and of course many improvements to file handling policies (common formats, lending ability, browsing options). Even bigger will be full-color e-ink.
As a professional book producer, there is no doubt that the day is coming when e-books dominate. It will probably be a much slower process than most of the other analog to digital tranformations though, there just aren't huge compelling advantages to e-versions compared to paper. The pricing is a real issue. A Harry Potter novel is going to be profitable in virtually any format, but the vast majority of books published are never expected to sell more than a few thousand copies (some are published with a few hundred sales as a goal). For those books the big cost has never really been printing. Editing, design, marketing and author royalties/advances are basically the same whether you are digital or paper. Small publishers simply can't produce and sell many books at the sub $10 price and expect to recoup their investment. This of course will probably become less of a problem if e-books actually raise the rates of literacy, or at least the number of books that people buy/read/use.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Yeah we really are at the Commodore 64 stage.
If this is as "good" as ebooks get I wouldn't be excited but even the relatively primative kindle is rather impressive and this is just the begining Ebook readers will only get lighter, cheaper, and more impressive.

Amazon has already in 3 years:
a) cut weight by 66%.
b) increased capacity by 500%
c) doubled battery life
d) cut price by 2/3ds.

That is just in 3 years. Now extrapolate that forward a decade, then two decades, three decades. I think everything you mentioned will happen eventually. Given it only takes 5Watts to charge a kindle for a month a relatively small solar panel could keep it charged indefinitely.

On pricing:
You are right there is a non-linear cost when it comes to smaller run books however I think the fact that books can remain "in production" for much longer means that profits can be eaked out of even marginal titles (who in physical printing would simply no longer be published).

On the ipad:
The ipad is a dead end for ebooks. If people liked reading ebooks on an ipad they would have done it decade ago on laptops. The ipad is simply an laptop with a touch screen replacing a keyboard. Take a netbook. Rip off the keyboard, flip the screen around, remove the hinge and add a touch screen. It has all the advantages and disadvantages of a laptop. Note I am a shareholder of Apple and the ipad will make billions it just won't be in ebooks. Anyone thinking ipad is an ebook reader likely doesn't read or hasn't tried to read on the ipad for more than an hour.

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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
57. I'm not trying to trash the ereaders. I simply prefer a book. nt
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I never claimed you were trashing them.
Actually the word trash doesn't appear in my post at all.

You made a claim that ereaders you looked at resulted in eyestrain. Given they are fixed text without flicker, backlight, or glare that seems unlikely. Of course many people incorrectly assume eink is the same thing as a laptop monitor which is why I asked.

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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. yes, I was simply trying to clarify for others that will see my
post later today.

I've heard raving about them and to be honest the only one I've used is the iPad, which I personally consider iWasteofmoney. That's simply my opinion though, nothing more.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. I agree with you on the ipad it (despite the hype) is ill suited for ebooks.
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 01:23 PM by Statistical
The ipod is a latop in another form factor and it is just as bad as any other laptop in this respect.

It has a LCD display and thus has all the disadvantages of any other LCD display (eyestrain, energy consumption, weight, glare, back-light, flickering, etc).
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spinbaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #29
45. The Kindle is very easy on the eyes
No eyestrain there. Also I should point out that paperback are self-destructing--the acid in the paper makes them crumble over the decades.

That said, I'm one of those dinosaurs that loves a real book. When I'm looking for something to read at bedtime, I run my fingertips over the spines of my books, almost feeling the texture of their contents.

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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
31. Silly, education is just for the evil "elites", not the regular common folk.
:silly:
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #31
43. Agreed.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
32. Poor people don't need to read. Poor people need to get jobs and go to work.
:sarcasm:
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
33. In the 1930's radio was the end of books. In the 1950's TV was the end of books.
I've heard this whole "end of books" myth so many times in my 65 years I sick of it.
It ain't going to happen, folks. Books are here to stay, in spite of the fever dreams of the "futurists".
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Phentex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Five years does seem a bit much. Even phonebooks are hanging on...
and I never use those.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
36. I am a lover of books. Physical books.
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 11:15 AM by LWolf
I don't have a kindle or other e-reader. I don't really want one. Yet...

One of the challenges in my life has been to house my large personal library. Investment in shelves, and finding SPACE for them.

When I move, choosing a new place to live is determined by enough wall space for the shelves. The modern preference for "open" floor plans makes this difficult.

These days I'm older, my kids are grown, and I live alone. I'd love a much smaller place to take care of. But not so small that I need to give up the books.

Unless...I've begun to think that having some, or most, of them in digital form, instead of physical form, would allow me to downsize.

Of course, repurchasing my several thousand volumes in digital form is also an investment I don't see ever having the capital to make.

Still...what it cost me to move all those books to another state 5 years ago might have gone a good way towards that investment.

I'm on the fence. I don't know that I would like to curl up with an electronic screen. I like the physical feel of the book. I like easily flipping back and forth through pages. I can't afford to transition, anyway. In the last five years of financial downturn, I don't buy many books. I depend on the library for new material.

Still, envisioning a smaller, easier to manage space is tempting.

How do the poor find books? Unless the anti-intellectual powers that be succeed in eliminating libraries, I expect that libraries will begin to transition, slowly, to e-books and to include e-readers in the check-out system. Just as they did the transition from card catalogs to electronic databases of books, paper check-out systems to scanners, etc..
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Phentex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. I love them, too. My eyes, however, want a larger font!...
My perfect vision is a thing of the past thanks to middle age. The large print books are too large, lol. But some of the others are too tiny. With the e-reader, I can easily change the font and I don't need the itty bitty book light when I want to read in bed and not disturb the spouse. I was skeptical but I am enjoying it so far. I've just downloaded a bunch of classics for free. I don't know that I'll ever run out of something to read. :)
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #40
51. That's encouraging to hear.
Especially the font sizing. My eyes get worse with every new pair of glasses.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. Depending on how much of your collection is "old" some of it can be replaced for free.
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 11:23 AM by Statistical
Project Gutenberg has roughly 33,000 (and growing by about 5,000 or so a year) books in public domain for free in various formats including the kindle.

http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page

The top 100 most downloaded books kinda gives a cross section of what is available for free. The copies will never degreade, never tear, never suffer from the elements.

1. The Kama Sutra of Vatsyayana by Vatsyayana (1103)
2. How to Analyze People on Sight by Elsie Lincoln Benedict and Ralph Paine Benedict (733)
3. The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (629)
4. The Notebooks of Leonardo Da Vinci — Complete by Leonardo da Vinci (514)
5. Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen (489)
6. How to tell the Birds from the Flowers and other Wood-cuts by Robert Williams Wood (407)
7. The Art of War by Sunzi 6th cent. B.C. (399)
8. Calculus Made Easy by Silvanus Phillips Thompson (396)
9. Alice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll (332)
10. Myths and Legends of Ancient Greece and Rome by E.M. Berens (329)
11. Ulysses by James Joyce (325)
12. Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain (324)
13. The Marvelous Land Of Oz by L. Frank Baum (295)
14. Dracula by Bram Stoker (287)
15. The Bible, Old and New Testaments, King James Version (277)
16. Cuba in War Time by Richard Harding Davis (268)
17. A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens (267)
18. Grimm's Fairy Tales by Jacob Grimm and Wilhelm Grimm (263)
19. A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens (261)
20. The Complete Works of William Shakespeare by William Shakespeare (259)
21. Daniel Deronda by George Eliot (241)
22. The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas père (238)
23. Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc — Volume 01 by Mark Twain (237)
24. Robur the Conqueror by Jules Verne (233)
25. The Adventures of Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain (219)
26. Moby Dick, or, the whale by Herman Melville (216)
27. Secret Adversary by Agatha Christie (216)
28. The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde (213)
29. Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë (209)
30. The Time Machine by H. G. Wells (208)
31. Emma by Jane Austen (205)
32. The Prince by Niccolò Machiavelli (202)
33. The War of the Worlds by H. G. Wells (201)
34. The Divine Comedy by Dante, Illustrated by Dante Alighieri (198)
35. History of Egypt, Chaldæa, Syria, Babylonia, and Assyria, Volume 9 (of 12) by G. Maspero (195)
36. War and Peace by graf Leo Tolstoy (191)
37. Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka (187)
38. Les Misérables by Victor Hugo (173)
39. The Republic by Plato (171)
40. A Study in Scarlet by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (166)
41. The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (165)
42. Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse (164)
43. Beyond Good and Evil by Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (158)
44. The Return of Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (156)
45. The Devil's Dictionary by Ambrose Bierce (155)
46. Koran. English (153)
47. Anna Karenina by graf Leo Tolstoy (152)
48. My Man Jeeves by P. G. Wodehouse (152)
49. Paradise Lost by John Milton (151)
50. The Mysterious Affair at Styles by Agatha Christie (149)
51. The Works of Edgar Allan Poe — Volume 1 by Edgar Allan Poe (145)
52. Tales of the Toys, Told by Themselves by Frances Freeling Broderip (143)
53. The Practice and Science of Drawing by Harold Speed (143)
54. Encyclopedia of Needlework by Thérèse de Dillmont (141)
55. Soap-Bubbles by C. V. Boys (135)
56. An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith (135)
57. Great Expectations by Charles Dickens (134)
58. Around the World in 80 Days by Jules Verne (129)
59. Frankenstein by Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley (129)
60. Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift (129)
61. The Tale of Peter Rabbit by Beatrix Potter (128)
62. Through the Looking-Glass by Lewis Carroll (126)
63. The Communist Manifesto by Friedrich Engels and Karl Marx (125)
64. Roget's Thesaurus of English Words and Phrases by Peter Mark Roget (125)
65. The Iliad by Homer (124)
66. Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson (124)
67. Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman (124)
68. The Works of Edgar Allan Poe — Volume 2 by Edgar Allan Poe (124)
69. Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra (124)
70. Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë (124)
71. The Wonderful Wizard of Oz by L. Frank Baum (124)
72. Doctrina Christiana by Anonymous (123)
73. Wake by Robert J. Sawyer (123)
74. Peter Pan by J. M. Barrie (121)
75. Walden by Henry David Thoreau (121)
76. The Importance of Being Earnest by Oscar Wilde (120)
77. The Three Musketeers by Alexandre Dumas père (120)
78. The Invisible Man by H. G. Wells (112)
79. 2 B R 0 2 B by Kurt Vonnegut (112)
80. The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoyevsky (110)
81. The Hound of the Baskervilles by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (110)
82. The Jungle Book by Rudyard Kipling (110)
83. Knots, Splices and Rope Work by A. Hyatt Verrill (108)
84. On the origin of species by Charles Darwin (107)
85. Faust by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (107)
86. Thus Spake Zarathustra by Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (103)
87. David Copperfield by Charles Dickens (101)
88. The Federalist Papers by Alexander Hamilton and John Jay and James Madison (100)
89. The Canterbury Tales, and Other Poems by Geoffrey Chaucer (98)
90. Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen (97)
91. Mysticism and Logic and Other Essays by Bertrand Russell (96)
92. Anne of Green Gables by L. M. Montgomery (96)
93. Diccionario Ingles-Español-Tagalog by Sofronio G. Calderón (96)
94. Persuasion by Jane Austen (94)
95. The Peddler's Boy by Francis C. Woodworth (93)
96. The Trial by Franz Kafka (93)
97. A Princess of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs (91)
98. Oliver Twist by Charles Dickens (90)
99. The Statute of Anne by Anno Octavo (87)
100. Prestuplenie i nakazanie. English by Fyodor Dostoyevsky (86)
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. I have used project G. at work.
To download and print copies of things to use in my classroom.

We don't have e-readers in the classroom, either, so I have to modify the text format to make it efficient for printing. A time investment, but worth it.

That's a connection I hadn't made; I don't know how much of my collection might be there. I'll have to start looking!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. I have downloaded some classics in the history of US Labor
from Guttemberg, that either are in libraries across the country, or no longer in print and long gone... or in rare books collections.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
41. Hard-copy books are not going to be "dead" for a very, very long time
We just need to fund our public libraries.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
47. I plow through about 60-70 books a year...
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 11:47 AM by Javaman
plus about 10-20 books on audio (mp3) as well.

I prefer the real mccoy, but sometimes time doesn't allow me the benefit of sitting down and reading. So I use my driving time, running time, and waiting time ie: doctors office waiting rooms etc, to listen to them.

If I could just read 24/7 for the rest of my life, I would be in heaven, but alas, with my luck I would accidentally break my glasses. (shout out to the twilight zone)

Oh, I forgot. Your question: If books died out? There will always be books. Granted, probably not the latest and greatest, but I would be very hard pressed to say that there will be no more books available to the poor.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
48. E-books are far, far cheaper than print books.
Really now.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. And e-books are far, far more study too...
And e-books are far, far more study too. Unlike books, one may leave an e-book on the beach for hours at a time with no adverse effects. Also, after dropping an e-book in a swimming pool one merely needs to set it out in the sun and let it dry for the afternoon before it becomes readable again.


Really? Now?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. That's a good point.
I don't know how many times I've been homeless and dropped my real books in my swimming pool, and thankfully I've been able to keep reading them over and over again.

:crazy:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. ebooks can be backed up.
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 01:16 PM by Statistical
In neither of you examples was the ebook damaged just the ereeader.

You can download ebooks an infinite amount of time, you can store a backup on a computer, or a flash memory card, or even burn them to a CD/DVD. You can put them online somewhere like google docs so they are safe "in the cloud".

If your home were to burn down with 10,000 ebooks you could simply purchase a new reader and download all you books instantly.

Also there is no reason that as the tech gets cheaper that e readers won't get more resilient. No reason for example one couldn't have an ultra light, scratch resident, waterproof reader.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
55. Don't worry. They won't be.
I think books on internet will probably be even more accessible though.
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Blue Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
65. People say books are bad for the environment
But I say all the discarded Kindles in 3-4 years will contain as many if not more toxins than all the paper and ink -- it's a well-known fact the electronics/appliances are among the worst environmental offenders.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
66. books are not going to go away
some things like textbooks are more useful in e-format compared to cost.

even tho book digitization has been going on for a while, there are MILLIONS of books that are not part of that process. Robert Darnton has discussed this in the NY Review of Books and his book, The Case for Books.

Books as objects are an important part of the study of history - this will not go away. These sorts of books are the province of special collections, rare book libraries and collectors.

Hardcover books as a first release, whose prices have gone up to reflect the trade practices of places like Borders, Barnes and Noble, Amazon and WalMart, will probably go the way of limited special editions for people who want to have a durable physical copy - and those people exist and will continue to exist. Limited special editions already exist - the mark up on hardcover retail prices, however, reflect the fact that large book sellers have demanded huge discounts and, in response to this loss, as well as the practice of ordering huge amounts of a title that these chains will never actually sell, publishers have increased the price of every book to offset the waste of discounted warehoused book sellers.

If the price of books is achieved by factoring in the environmental impact of waste from electronic gadgets, physical books are an even better deal because people have to upgrade devices, batteries, have to have a reliable power source - for some people. There are people who will continue to service those needs and desires.

The act of reading a physical book is different than the act of reading an electronic slab. Some people prefer this, just as some people prefer vinyl to itunes. Books do not require the same level of technology to continue to use them in book format, compared to vinyl, however, so books will not be as marginal as vinyl - tho the same subset of people who value something may overlap.

No doubt we are at a time of huge changes for what people think constitutes a book.

But there are still many people who are dedicated to preserving books as objects as they exist. Magazines have taken a huge hit as people have turned to digital means to read magazines. however, there are still thousands and thousands of magazines and readers that exist. Magazines have been a primary example of the hit to print matter - yet, five years on, ten years on - plenty of magazines are still available.

but, in the future, maybe people who like printed material will be like those who do renaissance fairs. who knows.

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
67. Huge problem with switching to e-books,
Namely what will be digitalized and what will be tossed out with the trash. I watched this happen with music, there is a ton of good music and other audio programing that didn't make the leap to either CD, or now to full digital. Thus, except for a very few, this music is lost to the world.

The same is going to happen to books. They will digitalize the "classics", and bestsellers, but there is going to be a massive amount of books that won't make the jump. Not only will this mean a large part of our culture is lost, but a large part of our knowledge base as well.

Finally, this entire switch to digital is going to cause hell for future historians and such. While we have paper records, books, diaries, letters, etc., to help us learn about the past, all of our digitalized records will disappear into thin air. Digital media degrades much more quickly than paper, and technology will leave behind modern computers, ebooks, etc, and there will be no way to access the digital media, even if it isn't degraded.

Our era will become an ever greater blank, culturally, historically, in all ways.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. You can help digitize ANY book in public domain at project gutenberg.
IF there is a book you feel is being overlooked become part of the solution and digitize it.

It isn;t like paper is immune to these effects. An utterly unbelievable amount of information has been lost of the years due to fires, theft, intentional destructions, wars, etc.

"Finally, this entire switch to digital is going to cause hell for future historians and such."
Not necessarily. Algorithms for some file formats like epub are public domain. The specs for how to encode and decode epub files are publicly available. Anyone who wants to can write a reader. There is no reason why an epub file can't be read a century or millennium from now.

Many projects like gutenberg have taken to storing files in thousands of locations and in a half dozen formata along with information on how those formats work. The simplest format every devised (ASCII text) is used. I find it hard to believe some future generation of computer programs won't be able to decode that riddle.

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. There are millions of books that need to be digitized,
And while yes, I can digitize a book at Gutenburg, I can only do so much, and there isn't a concerted effort that is currently large enough that will save all that needs to be saved. Not to mention that I don't have access to many of these books, so :shrug:

As far as future generations being able to retrieve e-info, hell, we're already having trouble retrieving information from the past quarter century. 5 1/4 floppies are degrading, records, especially email, is being deleted by the terrabyte, and while an efile can be decoded in the future, the future historian is going to have to get the media to work first (do you honestly think a kindle is going to work a couple of hundred years from now), and then figure out what the code is.

Historians are already alarmed over the record we're going to leave for future generations, and that record is going to become even more scarce as we continue to switch to e formats. What we consider obvious now, such as ASCII, could easily be gibberish to people a thousand years from now, like hieroglyphics were gibberish for so long.

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mwooldri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. It's not just the file format that's the problem.
It is the storage media, and how the data gets put onto and read from that storage media that will cause problems down the road.

Case in point: The BBC Domesday Project. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Project

Machines fail. Media changes. Computers become obsolete. Software changes and is also obsoleted.

Your file may be a simple ASCII file, but how is it stored on the media you put it on? How do you get it off?

I'm not saying it would not be impossible... after all when a guy fascinated with early television is handed an aluminium disc with the words "Television 1933" written on it, he figures out what was on that disc and decodes it and thus gets a copy of what could be the worlds' earliest home television recording. But who knows in 100 years from now if an equally excited individual interested in very early computer technology finds two laservision discs - what will they make of them and will they be able to extract the content?


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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
69. What will you read at the beach, or in the forest?...
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 03:30 PM by cascadiance
Still some challenges to face before we completely replace books...

1) Access to power every place in a reasonable place and time so that one can be away from the power grid for more than 24 hours and still have the ability to read, etc.
2) Ruggedized design designed to be taken in places like a sandy beach, and other areas where an electronic device might get damaged. This would also allow reasonable kinds of input so that sand or other parts of the device don't get mucked up when interacting with a keyboard, mouse, touchpad.
3) A reasonable display technology so with reflective properties so that in bright light the display will be enhanced instead of unreadable in a glare. A book, magazine, or newspaper is arguably a lot better in this capacity in a place like a sunny beach.

Some of this technology is getting better, but we are restricted in our movements currently where we can have access to information reasonably like the old style books.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. None of those are a problem.
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 04:41 PM by Statistical
1) Access to power every place in a reasonable place and time so that one can be away from the power grid for more than 24 hours and still have the ability to read, etc.

Kindle battery lasts about one month (that isn't a typo 30 days on a charge) before needed a recharge. Even then the recharge is about 5Wh (about 1/10th that of an average laptop). Most people have a hard time conceptualizing electricity so here is an example: turn on a 100w light bulb for 3 minutes. Turn it off. That is about 5Wh. It costs roughly half a penny. That is what the kindle uses in an entire month.

A tiny portable solar panel charger could provide unlimited lifetime reading. I am in the process of making a DIY solar usb charger but you can buy retail ones for $20-$40.

2) Ruggedized design designed to be taken in places like a sandy beach, and other areas where an electronic device might get damaged. This would also allow reasonable kinds of input so that sand or other parts of the device don't get mucked up when interacting with a keyboard, mouse, touchpad.

I have used Kindle at beach even in Mexico and Caribbean without ill effect. While design could be slightly more rugged it is already there for 99% of users.

3) A reasonable display technology so with reflective properties so that in bright light the display will be enhanced instead of unreadable in a glare. A book, magazine, or newspaper is arguably a lot better in this capacity in a place like a sunny beach.

eink (which is used by eReaders not laptops) has existed for years. eInk can be read in full sunlight without glare. If you have never seen an eink display then you need to see one in person to get the full effect. It is nothing like an LCD (backlit) display in a computer, TV, or cellphone. It is literally digital paper. Works similarly to real paper does with similar properties and requires a tiny charge to change pages.

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blueworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
70. And there will always be limitless energy to feed all the kindles etc.
Of course digital media is important, but not everyone has (or can afford) high-speed. If I tried to download Dr. Seuss on dial-up, I'd start right before leaving on vacation. "War & Peace" is out of the question. We still have books, not many I grant, but enough books that are hundreds of years old. I have many from my childhood & I'm a geezer. Reading Braille? Of course you can get an audio book unless you're also deaf or sitting in an inconvenient place. Paper can be recycled.

I hope that beautifully bound books never completely go away, nor libraries. As you so importantly point out, libraries offer a lot more to communities than simply books.

And Camden is a filthy hell-hole. If there are 3 kids in that cesspool who could be saved by hiding in a library for a few hours per week, the fat, corrupt NJ politicians should find the money. Maybe Monsanto or DuPont or any of the oil companies dumping sludge into Camden can dump a few bucks into the libraries?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Text is small and so is energy needs.
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 04:35 PM by Statistical
A tiny usb solar charger provides unlimited power for a kindle. It isn't a computer or laptop it (and Sony reader & nook) it's tiny 5W battery (most laptops are 10x that) lasts about one month.

Here is one example for $25. Some people DIY and make one out of busted solar powered garden lights.




As far as downloads.....
text is very small. War & Peace unabridged (about the largst novel I can think of) is about 1.6 Megabytes (smaller than some threads on DU).

Free for download right here:
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2600

Should take about 5 - 10 minutes on dialup or <1 minute on the crappiest of high speed connections. Dialup will likely be completely replaced within 10 years or so.

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Old Troop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
71. Reducing library services and hours or closing libraries is a standard
practice when revenue gets tight. It wakes people up to the situation.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
72. 5 years from now e-readers will probably be cheaper than most library books
A library could simply loan one out to you. Their cost of maintaining storage for thousands of books would drop to next to nil.

So it sounds like a big "If" to begin with and even if it weren't, life will go on and probably much more efficiently than before.
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
78. just curious...
if EVERY book in the largest national library was converted to digital form...

How many GB would it take up? I'm guessing... the text alone would fit on your average desktop hard drive... the images, considerably more.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
80. Any librarians or administrators here?
It's a given that library systems need more money. Yet in my area, with the libraries being part of the county system, there is so much darn red tape as far as how the libraries are funded that they don't even allow fundraisers for the libraries. One has to work with the "Friends of the Library" organizations and, quite frankly, they are usually more geared toward black-tie events...the local area elite...than any grassroots awareness-raising and fundraising efforts.

Besides money, what else can help libraries have a higher profile and remain a stable part of our communities? Does raising membership translate into more funds? I don't know how the system works; I'm asking for insight.

The following is from an old article, but the gist of it still seems applicable and is what I've been thinking of lately as well.


"A public library can be much more than a passive repository of data. It can and should be the community's center for coordinating and disseminating local information to help all residents. While we may recognize these tasks as the logical outgrowths of the public library's core mission, this is an opportunity to remind others of that mission and its importance. In the best-case scenario, the local crisis plan will never be put into action. But the library's visible role in developing the plan and the contacts developed in that process can nonetheless have benefits for the community and the library."

http://www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA185136.html


I'd love to brainstorm with librarians and those familiar with these systems, even if many specifics vary from region to region.

:hi:

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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Also, please see my post #10 above. Libraries are even more necessary...

in today's economy, for more and more people.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #80
83. Ask to be a volunteer shelver
Or, if you've ever worked in a library, to help with charging and discharging books. The libraries will NOT hire more staff, so you won't be taking a job away, but you will free up staff to do more "librarianship" things, including fundraising.

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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
82. I don't see why you couldn't check out an e-reader at the library.
In 5 years basic models should cost about as much as a hardback book.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. As soon as they are about $80, I'm getting one
Which should be in about 18 months to two years, I bet.

And, I love the feel of books in my hands, but something like the Nook is so convenient for so many different things.

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