Elections don't work. Revolutions don't work. What's left?

[Taverner]

Revolutions never work - they just get some Alpha Male in power who likes to torture smal children for fun. Think Lenin, think Stalin.

Elections don't work - they might talk good game but in the end they serve the companies that paid them.

Third Parties don't work - just ask our Green Party Senatorial Caucus.

So how do you eliminate our shitty government?

How do you do it with the least amount of suffering?

How do you strike against the real perps?

I'm not saying I know - I'm asking here...

[derby378]

1. One revolution DID work...

How the heck do you think our nation got here in the first place?

[Taverner]

4. Right after the so-called American Revolution....

...You could only vote if you owned land, where white and male

...Slavery was legal

...The Senate was not elected by the people

...Lynchings were very common, not just for blacks, but for anyone who wasn't white and protestant

Doesn't sound very good to me

[derby378]

16. You forget your history...

Back then, the only Americans really agitating for abolition and non-white suffrage were Quakers, a few Baptists, and other religious and philosophical minorities. Our consciousness needed time to evolve, even if our realization of the need for democratic government could not wait any longer.

[provis99]

21. well, America is more conservative than Britain is.

Maybe the revolution didn't work.

[AnnetteJacobs]

2. Whaddaya mean, revolutions don't work?

The Industrial Revolution turned out just fine.

[jaksavage]

3. I've given up hope

just sit back and witness the disintegration of our society.

[Taverner]

5. Sigh...me too. At least Ganja will be legal

We can at least laugh through our tears

[scheming daemons]

6. Elections DO work... The past 2 years have been 10 times better than the previous 8

[bdamomma]

11. ........................

:thumbsup:

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. We don't know about Lenin

he had two strokes before he died and was ahem replaced by Stalin. So we really do not know. And Lenin was very sick for the last two years of his life and historians debate just how much real power he had, and how much real power devolved to one Ioseph Stalin.

That historian in me.

I know, bad, bad me.

And the US has had peaceful revolutions about once a generation or so. We are due... problem is whether the American people are up to it.

[Beam Me Up]

8. Revolutions don't work?

I think the founders of this country might disagree with that. Revolutions are dangerous and risky, I admit. But the first two paragraphs of thehttp://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/">Declaration of Independence is very clear about our responsibilities in relation to despotism and tyranny. The question is, are we *there* yet? And, even if we are, how does one go about changing a system from within -- that is, a system upon which one's own survivability depends -- when the established checks and balances and political means for peaceful change have been thwarted?

We have to begin thinking outside the box, IMO.

[BeFree]

18. Box?

Like the box congress is in? The 435 member box?

Like the one rep for every half million people? That box?

Ok, hows about one rep for every 100,000 people?

[The2ndWheel]

9. Sail west

Damn it, that didn't solve anything either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BVqIjKyJh0

Perhaps it's time to just accept what Arthur Jensen has to sell you.

[zipplewrath]

10. Anti-Zhin

For as good as I think Howard's book is, my #1 criticism of the book is he doesn't really acknowledge that sooner or later (always later) "the people" end up winning. Slavery, racism in general, labor unions, sexism, public works, health care, as much as people have had to fight for generations for these things, ultimately they win. Things rise and fall, but the larger progress is always there.

It is what makes being a progressive so frustrating. We know we're right. We're proven right time and time again. Practically everything that people like about this country was at one time a "crazy liberal idea". This is true whether it was public education, equal rights for almost any group, or the social safety net. Ultimately society comes around and admits that we were right all along. It just takes literally generations to accomplish, and not all steps are forward, and some of the steps backwards will be taken by your friends.

It's what made the health care debate so frustrating. We're right, they're wrong, and this bill will probably delay by another 10 years making the changes everyone know we need to make. Of course by then it'll probably be the GOP that will make them, a bit like Medicare Part D. I shudder to think what mandates and cadillac taxes they'll come up with. Oh well, in another generation or two we can probably "fix" it all.

[Radical Activist]

15. I always interpreted Zinn as more positive than that.

Sure, he writes about crushing defeats. But I think he showed the steady progress that happens over time. He always sounded much more positive in interviews than what I hear from most pundits. My impression is that Zinn agrees with you.

[zipplewrath]

19. Strangely I think you're right

I think his book often fell short of that, but as you say, in other venues he could be more positive in the long run. I think it might also be true that this view became more dominant for him later in life than earlier.

[Radical Activist]

12. Organize. Take control of the machinery of the political and economic system.

Elections can make a difference, but they're limited. They won't work if progressives only show up to help two months before an election. Writing letters and voting won't cut it. The Democratic Party machinery at the precinct and state level must be taken over. Then progressives will have real political power.

My strategy for the economy would be to achieve many of the goals of Marxism but without the "dictatorship of the proletariat" middleman. Direct worker ownership and control of businesses.
http://www.thetake.org/

We came close with the Republic Windows strike. Its an opportunity we shouldn't miss again.

http://bendangl.net/?p=289

Current UE Local 1110 president Armando Robles attended the World Social Forum in Caracas, Venezuela in 2006. There he heard from workers from Inveval, a “recovered” factory in Venezuela. They had inspired a movement of workers occupying and running factories, with the help of the government, that had been abandoned by bosses who had fled the country. Armando returned from that experience politicized and inspired. I visited Venezuela in 2007 and spent time visiting worker-run co-ops. I was struck by the workers’ investment in the revolutionary process and their ability to run production without management.

We drew on the Argentine factory occupations to the extent that they show that during an economic crisis, workers movements are afforded a wider array of tactical options. Militant action can win public support during a downturn in ways that would have been impossible before. In fact, the film “The Take” was screened in the factory during the occupation in a makeshift movie theater set up in the locker room.

BD: Is there a plan to transform the Republic factory into a worker-run cooperative? If so, how did the decision to do this come about? At this point, how is the process going of setting this up?

MM: At this point we are working to find a buyer for the factory, focusing on firms specializing in energy efficient windows. Though we are also exploring the idea of a cooperative enterprise, the fact that no real movement of worker-run enterprises exists in the US makes this option much more difficult at this point. The workers have set up an entity, called the “Windows of Opportunity Fund”, to help provide technical assistance and study this and other possibilities for re-starting production.

[Radical Activist]

17. Obama is putting into place the first steps toward economic democracy.

Let's say your goal is to have companies majority owned by workers who have some degree of control in how the company operates. Or, taking it a step down from that, a company that operates more like a democratic-republic where shareholders get to vote on policies and board members. The first step in either case is giving shareholders more direct power in how a company operates.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president-wall-street-reform

Number four, the last key component of reform. These Wall Street reforms will give shareholders new power in the financial system. They will get what we call a say on pay, a voice with respect to the salaries and bonuses awarded to top executives. And the SEC will have the authority to give shareholders more say in corporate elections, so that investors and pension holders have a stronger role in determining who manages the company in which they’ve placed their savings.

This is obviously a far cry from a worker owned and operated corporation. But, it starts to create the legal framework to make that easier. If nothing else, it introduces the idea that citizens who hold stock in a company now have a voice in how the company operates.

This is movement in the right direction. I'm surprised no one on the left has noticed the implications of what Obama is doing.

"The Chamber argues that union pension funds are pushing proxy access as a way to gain leverage over corporations’ management to facilitate unions’ organizing goals."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34891.html#ixzz0wEUM2Pd0

What if a union were able to elect the board of directors of a major company?

[Arugula Latte]

13. Emigration.

:(

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. I feel it

I ache for the day we see REAL universal health care but then I wonder who would bring it to us without it being poisoned by lobbyists, monied interests, etc etc etc? Even if we knew who to champion are there enough of us to get that person to office? Would we get enough of them to office to get past filibusters? Even if we got THAT far how do we preserve the system? We were told, "Just pass SOMETHING and we can tweak it later" but what happens when malefactors take over and they decide they want to "tweak it later"?

And that's just health care. We still have education, the environment, peace, social justice, homelessness, equality for LGBTs, etc to work for.

Who do I give my dreams to with the confidence I won't be lied to/disappointed?

I don't know anymore.

[Fumesucker]

20. Resignation..

The rich and the powerful are going to be running the show, just like they always have.

The sooner you resign yourself the sooner you can take pleasure in the smallest of things, until of course the rich and powerful take those things from you also.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. Chocolate?

Its seems cure any number of things