Michael Moore: Telling That "First Thing Out Of His Mouth Was 'People Want Canadian Health care.'"

[Hissyspit]

"Well, YEAH." Speaking on Countdown w/ Keith Olbermann.

People in Canada get more health care for their money and "... live almost three years longer in Canada..."

[JonLP24]

1. K&R

[Hissyspit]

38. VIDEO HERE:

DU Video: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x493705

MSNBC Video: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann/#38650001

[suffragette]

45. Thanks for the link Hissyspit

Great substantive points from Olbermann and Moore.

Just got to comment on Bill Burton's attempt to re-apologize for Gibb. One word stood outs:

Pirates.

Really.

Pirates.

In the context of all this, bringing up pirates as a major issue they have had to contend with as part of a non-apology - and one given second hand at that is taking this into the surreal.

[truth2power]

72. Yes. When he said "pirates" it was like fingernails on a blackboard...

What was he thinking? :eyes:

edit> er...fingernails, not fingers.

[Hissyspit]

46. TRANSCRIPT of Moore's Exact Words:

"And it's just so odd that the first thing that was off the top of his head was 'yeah, you know these people want Canadian health care.'

Well, YEAH.

Because what's Canadian health care except everyone is covered, which they won't be still. And it's gonna cost a third to half less, which is what it costs in Canada, which is what we pay.

Oh, and, by the way, people live almost three years longer than we do in Canada.

So, what, I just didn't understand why that was the first thing out of his mouth was the Canadian health care was the big thing they were worried about."

[LostinVA]

2. I found it telling, too

[Divernan]

52. Gibbs pimps for Big Insurance and calls it Health Care reform

We don't need health INSURANCE; we need health CARE.

[Sheepshank]

57. duh! you already have health care.

what most people don't like is the cost, company administration and delivery system....has nothing to do with the doctors that jab that needle in your butt or the nurse that holds your hand during a procedure. We have good medical professionals that know their stuff. What we don't have is the ability of people to access that health care.

playing with the words "insuance" vs. "care" is silly and is a catch phrase picked up that serves absolutley no purpose and makes no sense. WE HAVE HEALTH CARE...we lack access. Please if you are going to use catch phrases at least make them accurate and meaningful.

[Divernan]

80. Duh! yourself, little Mary Sunshine! No access =s no health care.

My, aren't you in a cranky mood today? You know exactly what I meant. You can prattle on all you want about "access". The fact is that millions of Americans do not HAVE access, and if they don't have access they, de facto, do NOT have health care.

Would your version of "access" be like that of the TEN hospitals in the LA area, who were discovered to be dumping indigent patients on LA's tough Skid Row? Here's a link to one of many reports on this topic.

www.abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local&id=5588413

LOS ANGELES, Aug. 20, 2007 (KABC-TV) (KABC) -- The Los Angeles Police Department is investigating two more alleged cases of hospital patients being dumped on L.A.'s Skid Row. In the last several days two patients came to Skid Row, one in serious need of medical care, and the other in serious need of psychiatric care.

Security guards at the Union Rescue Mission saw video just after midnight on Sunday: A man, barefoot, face bandaged, who had just been dropped off -- not by an ambulance or a health care provider, but by a United Independent taxicab. He told the guards that he was in severe pain and could barely walk, and had come from the Veterans Administration Hospital. According to the Union Rescue Mission, it appears to be a violation of L.A.'s anti-dumping law. The shelter says there was no notification from any hospital that a patient was coming.


"The man said he never wanted to come to Skid Row. He never asked to come to Union Rescue Mission, and as soon as he got a chance, he went back to the hospital," said Andy Bales of the Union Rescue Mission. Two days earlier, a similar incident. A man named Brian, who carried discharge papers from Western Medical Center in Anaheim, more than 24 miles from Skid Row. A staff member notes that "Patient has no realistic plans for self-care. Patient is agitated, delusional, and threatened staff with physical harm." In one case, a paraplegic man was left without a wheelchair or a walker. In the latest incidents there's concern that bringing patients to Skid Row could cause further injury.

The Union Rescue Mission has this message: "Find appropriate follow-up services nearby for your homeless patients. Don't send them to the mean streets of Skid Row," said Andy Bales. "They need to know that they're responsible for these patients and there's a protocol that they have to follow, and they're going to be held accountable for it," said Capt. Wakefield.

**************
A follow up report stated that the patient from the VA Hospital was returned to that hospital, but in the care of paramedics, not via private taxicab; and the 2nd man was cared for at the Mission for a few days but then walked off, without his medication.

Millions of Americans may have some form of health insurance, but that in no way guarantees them timely health care.
Part of my job at a state legislature was representing, pro bono as it were, constituents of various representatives who were denied the health care which they had paid for and to which they were clearly entitled, under the terms of their insurance. If you had any real world experience with health insurance companies, you would know that they routinely, as a matter of corporate policy, deny major claims in hopes that the insured are too sick, too elderly, too senile, too uneducated, etc., to jump through the appeals hoops required by their policies. Even if they do try to do this, the levels of appeal are so time-consuming and convoluted, that many die before they can get the care and treatments which WOULD HAVE SAVED THEIR LIVES ! ! ! That's how you make those profits, baby!

You accuse me of playing with words and being silly. I spent a decade of my life fighting health insurance companies, and saved not a few lives by threatening to bring individuals and their employers up on charges before the state insurance commission, thereby making those scum suckers back down and immediately authorize the treatments/surgeries/etc., which they had initially denied. I didn't get those results by playing with words or being silly.

One further point. What alternate universe do you inhabit where nurses have time to hold patients' hands? I've also worked with nurses' associations and know that they are grossly overworked, with ever-increasing, impossible patient loads - just talked to one the other day who works in a nursing home in an Alzheimers/dementia unit. She is responsible for 60 patients and has two nurses' aides to help her.

[Sheepshank]

92. Your statement is false on its face

you should learn to say what you really mean to say, rather that spewing incorrect rhetoric as if they were some golden nugget.

[Divernan]

122. Evidently my comments overload your circuit.

I laid out my bona fides and specific examples to support my position. I have no idea what experience/knowledge you're bringing to the discussion and you can't refute the reality, so you resort to "spewing", to use your term, nonsensical phraseology, like "your statement is false on its face", with no explication of why you believe my specific statements are false. What's next in your repertoire, I'm rubber and you're glue?


The sheepshank is a type of knot (or, more accurately unknot) that is used to shorten a rope or take up slack. This knot is not stable. It can easily just fall apart under too much load or too little load.

[LostinVA]

96. The WH itself calls it INSURANCE reform, not Health care reform

Even though the reform is imaginary.

[Sheepshank]

113. then it's resolved

[LostinVA]

94. Agreed

[whathehell]

89. Not to mention that he equated it with "eliminating the Pentagon"...

Fox News couldn't have done better.:eyes:

[SugarShack]

112. I want Canadian healthcare

I do. It's our largest expense and we're healthy! Only two of us. We alreayd have to wait for appointments as it is...and in our new plan, the doctors are not taking new patients. I know for a fact it's better in Canada.

[sandnsea]

3. Get 60 Senators to vote for it

If it's so damn easy, Michael Moore should get the fuck to it.

[LostinVA]

4. He certainly has gotten "the fuck to it"

A huge chunck of his adult life has been getting the fuck to it.

[mmonk]

48. +1

[liberation]

60. They can't hear you... them pompons make a lot of noise.

[florida08]

86. lol

now play nice

[LostinVA]

97. hahaha

[closeupready]

68. Fucking right.

Fucking A. +1,000.

[Barack2theFuture]

73. +1

I wish anyone in the White House had worked half as hard, not to mention effectively, as Moore to further progressive ideals in America.

[Enthusiast]

85. He sure has. nt

[Hissyspit]

6. Point is it was a stupid statement from Gibbs

and negotiating away the compromise position at the BEGINNING is failed tactics.

[Jackpine Radical]

10. Only if you assume the goal was to get a reasonable plan.

I fully believe that Obama intended from the beginning to end up where he did--with a "reform" law that ensured the sanctity of corporate profits.

[27inCali]

28. if Obama was a the corporate shill you think he is

the corporate media would not be spending every waking moment trying to destroy him.

[liberation]

61. Dear lord if I haven't heard the very same argument word for word but with Bush instead of Obama

from republicans in the 00 and 04 election cycles.

This is the "change" you guys were talking about? You can keep it... Dems now using right wing talking points and faulty logic. I'll be damned...

[ProudDad]

75. Check again...

The "corporate" media is still playing him up like any other celebrity they love...

Hell, he's their current spokesmodel so they treat him pretty well. About the same as they treated bush the lesser except they show relief that Obama can actually put a sentence together.

It's the far-right media that's attacking him in order to sell advertising space, suck money from the rubes and pave the way for the TOTAL crazies (who also grease the skids for corporations) to take their turn sooner than scheduled.

[Bluebear]

126. Oh he is.

[sandnsea]

11. Yeah I'm with Gibbs

Drugs. Most logical explanation to the absolute denial of the political process.

[Hissyspit]

14. Didn't I just talk about the political process?

And equating Canadian health care with elimination of the Pentagon. Embarrassing.

[sandnsea]

23. The process started with Ted Kennedy's bill

If he thought he could get single payer, do you not think he would have started there? You're saying YOU know more about the political process than he did??

[ihavenobias]

81. Of course you start with single payer, it's negotiation 101

If you want to sell your house and end up with $300,000 at the end of the day, you don't OPEN with $300,000. Your starting offer is obviously higher, because you know the potential buyer will negotiate down and you'll have some back and forth.

So starting with the public option (what they claimed they wanted to end up with) was a gigantic failure. Because they had to know that the Republicans/Corporate Dems would cut that half a loaf into half again, leaving us with crumbs.

You START with single payer because after that gets rejected, it makes the public option the moderate, centrist position. It even frames it that way in the minds of the public. Instead by starting with the public option it made it very easy for the right wing/corporate media to pretend that the public option was a radical far left socialist government takeover.

Again, it was an enormous political failure that resulted in a policy failure.

[LostinVA]

49. That was a REALLY odd juxtaposition

Especially since I have never heard anyone i know say they want the Pentagon shut down (including Quakers and "Professional leftist"), although many of us do wish we lived in a world where that was possible.

[saracat]

15. All these Reps are on drugs? Quelle scandal!

:sarcasm:

Dem Congressman: Robert Gibbs Should Resign For Attacking 'Professional Left'
Rep. Ellison: 'Gibbs Crossed The Line'

Progressive Democrats fired back at Robert Gibbs on Tuesday, following the White House press secretary's sharp critique of what he called a "professional left" that is perpetually unsatisfied by President Obama.

"I hear these people saying he's like George Bush. Those people ought to be drug tested," Gibbs said in an interview with The Hill.

"They will be satisfied when we have Canadian healthcare and we've eliminated the Pentagon. That's not reality," he added. "They wouldn't be satisfied if Dennis Kucinich was president."



Rep. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.), an active member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, said Gibbs went too far. "This is not the first time that Mr. Gibbs has made untoward and inflammatory comments and I certainly hope that people in the White House don't share his view that the left is unimportant to the president," he said. "I understand him having some loyalty to the president who employs him, but I think he's walking over the line."

Ellison said that Gibbs's resignation would be an appropriate response. "I think that'd be fair, yeah. That'd be fair, because this isn't the first time. And, again, people of all political shades worked very hard to help the president become the president. Why would he want to go out and deliberately insult the president's base? And why would he confuse legitimate critique with some sort of lack of loyalty. Isn't this what the far right does? Punishes people who are not ideologically aligned with President Bush?"

It's wrong to suggest that progressives want to eliminate the Pentagon, said Ellison, adding that he doesn't know a single Democrat who has espoused that view. "I know of none. So I think that was an inflammatory remark that is emblematic of his careless use of language and is an example of why he may not be the best person for the job," he said. "Gibbs crossed the line. His dismissal would be fair."



Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.), a civil rights legend who has been critical of Obama from a progressive direction, laughed at Gibbs's suggestion that liberal critics should be drug tested. "Should be drug tested? They think we're on something? Smoking something?" he said. "It's very hot in Washington and we've come back at a peculiar time. I just think we all just need to finish and get out of here."

Rep. Raul Grijalva (D-Ariz.), the co-chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, also lashed out at Gibbs on Tuesday.

"I think before Gibbs or the White House points figures at liberals and progressives, they ought to check their own record," Grijalva told HuffPost. "The whole drug testing thing -- our dissatisfaction is based on the fact that we haven't met the expectations and we're hearing that from our base, period."

Grijalva was critical of the White House for abandoning the public insurance option during the health care reform debate, and for otherwise compromising too quickly with a Republican Party uninterested in bipartisanship. Gibbs had the misfortune of having his comments published on a day in August when the House is back in session and members of Congress are easily accessible to reporters. Gibbs has since walked back his criticism of what he deemed the "professional left."

"But two," said Grijalva, "that drug testing, if that's the case, would probably have to extend to 50 percent of the American population at this point. They're kind of feeling dissatisfied too."

That would require millions of drug tests, HuffPost noted.

"They can do hair follicles," quipped Grijalva.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/10/rep-ellison-de...

[Skittles]

26. you and Gibbs both need interventions

[ProudDad]

76. +100

:rofl:

[pa28]

37. Democrats and Republicans do business in different ways.

Republican Presidents will make a public case for their issue and apply a full court press in the media. Democratic Senators go along because they are afraid of backlash at election time if the volume level was high enough and the issue was framed correctly.

Barack Obama could have tried a similar leadership tactic to get a public option and it might have succeeded. I guess we'll never know will we?

[TBF]

118. It takes drugs to put up with the political process in this country.

Unless you're wealthy of course.

[Imajika]

16. Moore talks a big game...

...but apparently has no idea what it means to actually get anything done. Making movies that appeal to the already converted don't get us much of anywhere. Oh, it may feel good to watch them, but if they don't move the needle of public opinion then as an activist he pretty much fails.

[EFerrari]

21. Um, a lot of those people were converted by those movies and books.

You have no idea who Mike Moore is or how active he is or how successful he is.

[KurtNYC]

47. how wrong you are

Do they still sell bullets at WalMart? Did Bush have to run away from "Farenheit"? Is Moore banned from the Today Show since ripping Katie Couric's bullshit?

If the movies didn't matter then the RW would not be so scared of them. They tried to stop Farenheit and it only made it bigger. Farenheit helped push Bush's approval rating down near what it should have been. And many RWers saw that movie.

Let 1000 Michael Moore's bloom!

[liberation]

64. It is quite telling to see the DLCers display the same level of contempt for Michael More as the GOP

Joined at the hip... I just love how they save their best venom for unabashedly liberal public figures (Moore, Nader, etc) yet they expect... scratch that, they demand the unconditional support from liberals for their hubris. The entitlement is ridiculous to say the least.

[WinkyDink]

53. You don't know of his help in labor problems?

[liberation]

62. But by your own standard, all you do is post anonymously in an internet discussion board

thus making your opinion even less qualified.

But I am assuming you will be conveniently excluding yourself from your own standard. Right?


So much for all that "hope and change" bullshit eh, now it is down to the "it is is what it is, otherwise it wouldn't be, and that is that"

[LaPera]

83. That's what Moore is & has alway been, simply, a film maker - What the FUCK have you done?

Moore is no politician, Moore never claimed to be a savior....

Michael Moore's livelihood & forte is making films and great at what he does, What's your livelihood & forte? Do people demand more of YOU?

Moore is also asked to speak about his films and what they mean to him, he donates to organizations from the profits of his films along with having a progressive ideology....What do expect from a film maker who makes excellent funny perceptive thought provoking & progressive award winning documentaries?

He's simply a film maker with opinions, that I also happen to share....What exactly are you asking of Moore, NOT to make so much money....Do yo ask that of all the film makers you go to see or watch on DVD?

Get fucking real - So sick of this do nothing bullshit - Then point the finger at others who at least TRY to make people aware with their craft!

[Enthusiast]

87. He has moved the needle of public opinion

despite efforts by corporatists and their minions to denigrate and silence him.

[Bluenorthwest]

104. Moore is, among other things, the all time top documentary

earner at the box office, a winner of every major award in the cinema, and widely credited for opening the door for the relative flood of documentary filmmaking we see today. Mike set records, then broke them.
He actually talks a very modest game when you look at his vast achievements and huge earnings. Additionally, it more accurate to say his primary goal is educating and informing his audiences, and opening dialog, because any artist who sets as a goal actual moving of public opinion will fail, that is hubris, all you are doing is making a movie, and movies change and challenge individuals, that is the intention, the most anyone can set out to do, talk to the ears attached to the butts in the seats. A flimmaker has to make a film, not be an activist. You can be an activist around your film, or between films, but the making of entertainment gets fucked over when you set out to make propaganda as opposed to infomational entertainment. A film should ask, not tell, and Moore does exactly that, masterfully, which is why he is the absoulte historic top of his field.

[Ignis]

117. What a stinking, festering crock of elephant shit.

I'd be delighted to compare your personal list of achievements for the betterment of America against Mr. Moore's any day of the week.

Please provide your list; I'll do the rest of the work. :hi:

[Occulus]

18. First we have to get people like YOU to stop saying "NAY!"

"CAN'T!"
"IMPRACTICAL!"
"PONY!"
"POUTRAGE!"

[sandnsea]

20. Damn that Teddy Kennedy pouter

Surely you know so much more about getting a health care bill passed than he did.

[HEyHEY]

22. The dude made an entire documentary arguing for it...

I wouldn't say he's not been proactive.

[sandnsea]

25. The dude needs to get 60 votes in the Senate

Because that's how change happens in this country. He can make all the movies he wants and they don't translate into one more person getting health care except for his employees whom I assume he provides coverage.

[HEyHEY]

29. And he's trying, you're saying he's not. And I'm not even MM fan.

But you can't say the guy needs to get off his ass, he clearly has and is on the PR trail on this.

[sandnsea]

35. And yet there isn't 60 votes in the Senate, now is there?

Isn't easy, now is it?

That's what I said.

People like Michael Moore need to quit talking to the 10% of the country who agree with him and figure out how to reach the ones who don't. Instead, they beat the fuck out of the people who are most likely to agree with them and wonder why the ones who don't haven't changed. It's incredible really.

[LostinVA]

50. You stated in another thread that YOU already have "Canadian-style heath care"

Thanks to the State of Oregon. That fact makes your posts in this thread even odder to me.

[WinkyDink]

54. You keep reiterating this, AS IF there is no "bully pulpit"; AS IF no arm-twisting can be done (or

sweetening the pot); AS IF all governance now is a foregone conclusion based on some Newly-Discovered Newtonian Law.

[liberation]

65. He also keeps perpetuating the myth that every vote in the senate has to be passed by cloture.

Simple majority: 51 fucking votes.

Funny how they only grow balls to submit liberals into submission, but the mere "threat" of a filibuster from a republican sends these jagoffs into uncontrolled panic shivering.

[Caliman73]

123. Agreed

I have said this on other threads. This 60 votes crap is really ridiculous. The Republicans have not had anywhere near a 60% majority in the Senate, yet they were able to destroy the New Deal, restrict our civil liberties, take us into war, and create billions in debt through the stupid Medicare Part D program.

[Occulus]

30. You really don't want more, do you?

You're really satisfied.

Fucking SAD.

"He can make all the movies he wants and they don't translate into one more person getting health care"

Since SiCKO singlehandedly catapulted the issue onto the national stage, I'd say you're full of FAIL.

[LostinVA]

98. The poster has stated they have Oregon State-provide health care

very similar to Canadian health care. Either $60 or $70 a month cost. I can't remember which. They stated they are very satisfied with it.

[Warren Stupidity]

34. Yes indeed I recall how Bush and Cheney didn't manage to get

anything on their far right agenda accomplished because they lacked a super majority in the Senate. Or even a majority. So of course we can't push anything further left than RomneyCare 'cause we only had 60 votes for a year and then less than 60. And those tea baggers were really scary with guns and shit. And fox news has been just too much to deal with.

Oh wait, maybe the problem is that we don't have a political party that actually stands for anything. Instead it is big tent full of hot air.

[sandnsea]

36. Ooooh, we have a country full of red state Dems

Oh yeah, maybe that's got something to do with the problem.

[obxhead]

77. Maybe the problem is people thinking along the lines you do....

Mediocre change that supports the corporations before the people is good enough. :eyes:

[ProudDad]

78. Your tone-deaf

simplistic, apologist nonsense over the years has just gotten too boring... :banghead: :silly:

Hey, read a book! Watch something other than faux-noise!

Go out and smell the flowers (I seem to remember that it's beautiful this time of year in Oregon - the relentless rain's still a couple of weeks away)! :hi:

Please so SOMETHING to get rid of your cognitive tics then return to the keyboard, ok? :eyes:

[pscot]

124. You really don't help your position

by trashing a guy like MM, whose been putting it on the line for 25 years. It's the people around the President who have the credibility problem.

[Canuckistanian]

42. Last I checked, Moore wasn't elected to change things

Obama WAS.

Now's the time for ACTION, not words.

[suffragette]

44. + 1,000

[ProudDad]

71. Why do you continually post such inflammatory...

flights of ad-hominum nonsense? :shrug:

Do you really hate Truth-tellers so much?

[Enthusiast]

84. Single payer was taken

off the table by Obama right from the start. It wasn't even a serious part of the discussion. And we are supposed to be alright with that. I'm not alright with it.

The insurance industry serves no health care purpose. They extract money from the consumer while providing zero tangible benefits in return. A simple non-profit administrative group could provide everything insurance does at a far far lower cost. This is why so many of us non-far far leftists are so pissed off.

[Poboy]

5. M. Moore is on dope. -nt

[activa8tr]

8. Then let me smoke what HE smokes... 1/2 the cost of American Health care and

living 3 years longer?

And those Canadians drink a lot of beer, too! And STILL live longer.

I want some of what Michael Moore smokes.

[girl gone mad]

9. lol..

I like your sig.

:)

[EFerrari]

17. I hope he shares.

lol

[marmar]

41. If so, he needs to share it with the rest of America, including those in the WH.....

nt

[bdamomma]

7. Mike seems to know what we are thinking.

The Dems need to listen to us.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. Sadly, they apparently DON'T need to listen to us.

We commoners can't afford to buy their ear.

[BrklynLiberal]

13. Very good conversation there...

He was right. The base/fringe lefties will always come out to vote in November..and vote Dem.

It is that amorphous middle, that was enthused by Obama in 2008 that might stay home.

[mod mom]

19. This will be the 1st election some races will be left blank on my ballot.

I still have a tad of "hope" but I'm not supporting corporate Dems. I believe it's the only way to show the party that they need to stay out pre-primary and to give progressives equal footing. I think about how much I regret my vote for Bill Clinton when my instincts told me no. No more holding my nose to vote the lesser of 2 evils.

[closeupready]

70. I think the trend may end up being big money interests will find liars to run for office,

give them all the cash they need, as they are now permitted to do, in order to win elections, and then they will do what they are told to do, even if it is a complete 180 from what they promised.

[LooseWilly]

24. Absolutely they will always come out and vote...

ask Al...

[pa28]

27. Moore was even more compelling than Keith IMO.

Isn't it odd that Gibbs brought out that particular example for use as one of the straw men in his list?

Even the "fringe" idea of a single payer system polled positively and a public option was even more popular. These were mainstream ideas, not the ideas of a few pot smoking leftists.

The right has done such a good job of associating "liberal" and "fringe" that even our own leadership seems sold on the idea.

[BrklynLiberal]

32. Good points.

[LostinVA]

51. Good point, that single-payer is considered a "lunatic fringe" idea

By the Admin and its mouthpiece.

[liberation]

69. I don't think the Dem leadership needed to be sold that idea... since they came up with it.

Let's not forget: the HCR bill was mostly drafted by dems and then they tried to get support from the GOP for it, not the other way around.

Obama just wanted to pass something, anything, and then call it reform so he had something to pad his resume with for the next election cycle. It is quite telling that his admin was more interested in trying to get "bipartisan" support for that piece of shit bill, than the actual quality of the bill itself. Again the "bipartisan" was nothing but another PR gathering exercise so Mr. Obama can come off as the great "uniter" for the 2012 electoral spots.

It is no coincidence that for a politician like Obama who is far more interested on style over substance, Ronald Reagan seemed such an "effective" and admirable presidency. Because Raygun's was the epitome of style over substance administration.

[obxhead]

79. The "HCR" on his resume will be exactly what loses quite a few

votes for Obama in '12. That's from a family in a red state (VA) that turned blue for the first time in 44 years. It will be red again in '12 as many independents sit home instead of going to vote for more of the same.

[treestar]

31. Then let them vote in the Senators that will vote for it

and get the red states on board.

[TheKentuckian]

39. They did and they lied and set up some corporate welfare for the big money

Even the likes of Max Baucus was promoting himself as a change agent for health care when his crooked ass ran.

Shit only gets all "pragmatic" when the lobbyist show up.

[me b zola]

33. It has occurred to me

That perhaps the administration/Gibbs was reacting to the responses on the DNC questionnaire they sent out the other day. Health care was one of the topics that I blasted them on, and I'm fairly sure that I wasn't the only person to do so.

[Lorien]

40. Plus our jobs are moving to Canada because employers don't have to offer

insanely overpriced insurance to equally qualified English speaking employees there (happening w/ one of my own clients)!

[Canuckistanian]

43. America has GOT to stop fearing it

I can't say enough about the contrast between our system and yours. It's staggering the amount of suffering Americans go through to get health care.

It DOESN'T have to be this way, TRUST ME.

[NewJeffCT]

90. Americans don't fear it

It's just a bunch of pundits and politicians in Washington DC that seem to fear it.

[femrap]

55. I wish Canada would

annex Ohio.

[Vinca]

56. . . . and New Hampshire.

[femrap]

58. I suppose we should include

Michigan in our group...they have bad economic times.

[GreenPartyVoter]

67. They can have Maine too, but only if they ditch Harper first.

[donal dubh]

59. "... live almost three years longer in Canada..."

why is this interpreted as a good thing? have you ever lived thru a Canadian winter? j/k :P

[LostinVA]

100. The winters in Victoria are very mild!

[on point]

63. I'm happy Gibbs finally caught on to the desired agenda.

HIs agenda explains why the 'America on wrong track number' is going up. That was the situation before the election and people voted for a different track, not the same o same o track.

The US (and the global environment) is in desperate shape and some wishy washy do nothing reform in name only image marketing pablum just isn't going to cut it anymore. The time for tinkering around the edges has been spent.

We need serious, large scale dramatic reform while we still have the chance to shape the outcome. If we wait much longer, not only will the change be forced on us, but it may take a chaotic and disastrous path that no one in his right mind would want (except the crazy Armageddon lovers of course).

I think what is really riling the Whitehouse is that their pre-determined fall marketing image campaign isn't selling to the base. And that may be the fundamental disconnect. While we are looking for a better image marketing campaign, a MUCH BETTER ONE in fact, what we are really looking for is substantive change, not the image of change.

We are on the wrong track, and we need a change of direction.

[Touchdown]

66. Mike knows what's going on.

This isn't the first time he's had choice words for the Obama White House. He was right on then too.

[Jefferson23]

74. Hell, why would anyone want Canadian health care over ours??

:sarcasm:

[NorthCarolina]

82. Only 70%+ wanted SIngle Payer or at a minimum a PO. Hardly a majority.

:sarcasm:

[Cleita]

119. Yep, yet we are called the "small minority of unreality based liberals."

Amazing. I guess 70% is really 30% in doublespeak.

[florida08]

88. what was it that the Canadian socialist

health care discovered not to long ago? Oh yeah a possible cure for aids..yeah I want Canadian health care too

[whathehell]

91. Such a radical idea, dontcha know?...The richest country in the World..

can't "afford" the health care system every other friggin 1st world country takes for granted.

[MisterP]

93. people who live happier and who have less to worry about are less prone to boogeyman-based politics

so no "vote for party X because it's party X and not Y": candidates will have to offer things and follow up on them

[Bluenorthwest]

95. Some of the more pro Gibbs posters on DU have been claiming

until Countdown aired, that Moore agreed with Gibbs, and had made similar statements. One of these posters was actually chiding people for jumping on Gibbs, when they'd given Mike a pass for 'similar comments'. Amazingly mendacious posters.

[demhistorian]

99. Moore did make similar comments, sir. Not a "claim." It is a fact. nt.

[LostinVA]

101. No, he didn't

[demhistorian]

103. of course he did. The source in question did not invent the quote.

And no matter how you choose to conveniently parse his meaning six years later to fit your current narrative, Moore did say, "It’s very hard for someone on the professional left to put anything ahead of the politics, and that’s why they lose out."

[LostinVA]

106. No, he did not, no matter how many times certain posted posted it

And finally quit doing it after KO.

[demhistorian]

107. So you're contention, with no supportive evidence, is Moore did not make the quote on MSNBC?

..even though it is documented in their interview with him?

[LostinVA]

108. Read what the poster below you replied -- THAT is the truth

[demhistorian]

so you are denying Moore spoke those words in an interview as documented?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

102. No.

It is a fact that Moore referred to the "professional left" in decrying the lameness of overly-propagandistic and predictable lefty documentaries.

It is, however, not a fact that Moore agreed with Gibbs.

It is, in fact, a lie.


And when a flat lie is trumpeted as "fact" that's a bad sign for everyone.

[demhistorian]

105. No one has claimed, at least in this thread, that Moore agreed with Gibbs

My point of contention is in 2004 Moore did, in fact, say, "It’s very hard for someone on the professional left to put anything ahead of the politics, and that’s why they lose out." He was not "decrying the lameness of overly-propagandistic and predictable lefty documentaries." He specifically stated "The reason why I believe I’ve had this very fortunate success in reaching a wider audience than anyone on the left gets to reach..." That quote is not aimed exclusively at left documentaries.

He's also said liberals were on a "high horse."

[Bluenorthwest]

109. The claim was that he agreed with Gibbs.

And that is false as can be. And that was the claim made. Those making that claim also did not point out the age nor context of the words they claim are 'similar' in intent. He said 'professional left'. He did not say things similar to the hyperbole about closing the Pentagon, Canadian health care, he most certainly did not suggest anyone needed drug testing, nor that they were delusional, just that they lost. He also did not take a swipe at a Democrat running for office and his supporters. So Moore's words really were not very similar at all to Gibbs'. There is a phrase in common. Two words. Moore did not agree with Gibbs, nor did he say anything similar to what Gibbs said. Sir.

[demhistorian]

110. Who made the claim? I've not seen it. I have seen the Moore quote from 2004

[Bluenorthwest]

111. As I said, I saw it on DU twice yesterday

And you know, Mike is wise to make sure he goes out and speaks about this stuff, because of just that. Mike's words last night are available for all to hear. He does not agree with Gibbs at all, at all, at all. Not even talking about the same people. Not even talking about the same thing. Sure not talking about Obama 6 years ago.
I said people were claiming he agreed with Gibbs. You said that was a fact, not a claim. I say Mike speaks for himself, really well. Let people listen to what he said. That should be the word on what Mike thinks, what he himself says he thinks.

[demhistorian]

114. I saw two posters give the Michael Moore quote. Neither said he "agreed" with Gibbs.

"I said people were claiming he agreed with Gibbs. You said that was a fact, not a claim."

Not true. Here is he exact exchange:

YOU: Some of the more pro Gibbs posters on DU have been claiming until Countdown aired, that Moore agreed with Gibbs, and had made similar statements.

ME: Moore did make similar comments, sir. Not a "claim." It is a fact.

(as you'll see, I did not comment on whether Moore agreed with Gibb's 2010 words but, rather Moore did make a similar statement in 2004)

[Boudica the Lyoness]

115. Fuck you Gibbs

So Gibbs thinks my whole family needs to be drug tested.. and he's Obama's mouthpiece?
I was mad when that old turd McCain said, in either a debate or TV interview during the '08 election, that we did NOT want healthcare like England or Sweden had!!! Now these bastards are saying the same thing. :mad:

[JDPriestly]

116. Priceless. Moore is just so honest. That is the secret of his success.

It's not that he isn't an artist. It's not that he always shows every detail. It's that, when it comes to seeing to the core of reality, he is honest. He doesn't fool himself. And when he tries to fool us, he lets us know that is what he is doing.

[Dinger]

120. K & R

[Joe Chi Minh]

121. I don't think this dog's a Republican. More like a tree-hugging, bleeding-heart liberal.

A Canuck, too, probably. Commie anarchists, that's what they are.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x8724851

[fogonthelake]

125. So, he reads the polls but ignores them.