Boy, 4, kills himself with dad's gun

[dancingme]

A 4-year-old boy apparently shot himself by accident Monday afternoon in his Montgomery County home, the county coroner said.

Royersford police were called to the two-story brick twin on Chestnut Street about 12:45 p.m., responding to a report that someone had been shot, authorities said.

Michael DeSantis was found with a gunshot wound to his head, authorities said. He died at Pottstown Memorial Medical Center.

"The child apparently shot himself with a weapon that belonged to his father," said Walter I. Hofman, the coroner.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20100812_Pa__Boys__Royersford_boy__4__killed_self_with_father_s_gun__coronor_says.html

[PRETZEL]

1. From the local paper,

http://www.timesherald.com/articles/2010/08/12/news/doc4c638315d72a0719168816.txt

pretty sad accident. I live in Royersford myself and we drove past there yesterday.

[itsrobert]

40. Not an "accident" Child neglect and endangerment

are not "accidents"

[PRETZEL]

49. That's not for me to judge,

this little boy's body is downstairs in our morgue (yes I work for Montgomery County) and as of yet I haven't heard anything from anybody that says differently.

[itsrobert]

58. Usually, people considered the loss of someone's child

punishment enough and do not charge. But whoever left that gun loaded and that child unattendend will have to come to terms on their own that they are the responible party. That guilt will be with them the rest of their lives, they are going to need treatment.

[PRETZEL]

60. I absolutely agree 100% with that,

no matter what happens or doesn't happen to the parents they'll never be able to forgive themselves for what happened.

Like I said, I can't judge what happened. The investigation is still going on and so far I haven't heard any rumors or anything from the officials involved.

[DrDan]

52. yep- if a 4-year old gets his hands on a loaded gun - then

those are appropriate

[roguevalley]

88. why don't people use trigger locks? I don't get it.

[X_Digger]

89. For a gun in a safe? No problem.

For a gun kept at hand for self-defense? Kinda defeats the purpose.

[roguevalley]

91. I;m sure that is a great comfort.

[X_Digger]

92. It's like locking a fire extinguisher..

.. not saying you should leave a gun laying around- it should be accessible yet secure.

Something like this works well for both-

[DrDan]

2. how sad . . . unnecessary children's gun deaths continue

and "we" just chalk it up to the cost of gun ownership.

[proteus_lives]

66. I secure my firearms safely.

Please explain how my Rights cost you anything.

[Pavulon]

78. Deal with it. Gun ownership is a fact, just like other things.

people should be held accountable when the cause deadly accidents drunk and when they leave weapons unsecured around children.

[seabeyond]

3. i will simply be sad for all that will suffer and be in pain a lifetime, without

judgment.

[DrDan]

5. I am also sad for all - but have no problem with judgement

this child's life was stolen from him . . .

[seabeyond]

8. i understand you have no problem with it. i do. i find it offensive.

i had a friend who found their young daughter dead on a swingset in back yard. somehow, totally against the odds, her neck got wrapped in the swing. and she died.

the pain is there. stuff happens. they suffer enough without the arrogant and self righteous dismissing their pain with lectures.

highly offended.

[DrDan]

11. totally different circumstance . . . but our disagreement does nothing to bring back this

little boy from an unnecessary death

[seabeyond]

12. 6 months ago, my cousin ran over his little two year old.

he thought he was within a closed fence area with mom. mom ran in house for a sec. a thump as he ran over him. no ability to see the kid. as he gets out to see what the bump was that he ran over. and the horror he found.

we can be empathetic,

or we can do all kinds of blaming in self righteousness, dismissing the pain.

who are you?

[DrDan]

14. "self righteousness, dismissing the pain" - highly offensive

save your indignation for that gun owner

[seabeyond]

15. posts like yours truly disgust me. this mentality is such an epidemic in our society

that a person can do this to another says much about you. that this family will suffer because they did something stupid is totally different, than who you are.

[DrDan]

22. offend away - that child is still unnecessarily dead

your indignation is misguided

[seabeyond]

23. EVERY accidental death of a child is STILL unnecessarily dead.....

huge ass DUH

some people simply chose to be sympathic to some and judgmental, self righteous, condemning of others

you chose which to dismiss anothers pain, at your whim

[DrDan]

29. I am not dismissing anyone's pain . . .

you are simply inventing stuff now

[stanwyck]

33. my sympathy is also a bit strained. Children and guns?

would you have poison within reach of a child? This child deserved to have parents who took some parental responsibility for their children. That means, no loaded guns within reach. My sympathy, too late, is for this child who had the misfortune to have idiots for parents.

[seabeyond]

34. over 3X's more parents have poison within reach of child. about 8x's more parents

have swimming pools within reach of child



MV Traffic 3644 55%
Drowning 844 13%
Fire/burn 458 7%
Poisoning 379 6%
Suffocation 280 4%
Pedestrian, Other 208 3%
Other Land Transport 196 3%
Firearm 111 2%

[stanwyck]

46. Do you have a link?

for these statistics?

[seabeyond]

48. post 21. picking up his numbers. sure you can google cause of accidental death

for children

[Missy Vixen]

54. A six-year-old shot his brother here a few days ago

There's a difference between an "accident" and neglect.

I am tired of reading the news stories every summer about kids who bake to death because they were "forgotten" in the back seat of a car on a hot day, kids who shoot themselves with their parent's gun (after all, they don't need a trigger lock or some other safety feature! It's their right to own a gun!) and those who do stuff like leave a kid in a running car that gets carjacked.

Don't even try to tell me that some of these child deaths are not a little more than accidental. Only an idiot leaves a loaded gun anywhere near a four-year-old. While I'm sorry for their loss, I'm sick and tired of people who insist that "their grief is punishment enough". Right. It evidently wasn't enough of a deterrent for the father in question to make sure his gun was either unloaded or secured, was it?

[DrDan]

55. completely agree

I am also tired of those that quote gun death statistics in the context of all "accidental" deaths as though they are equivalent. They are from from so as you point out.

[seabeyond]

57. you tell me what the difference is having poison in house or pool in back yard

where is the logical difference.

are you not as aware of the deathly danger of the pool? of poisioning?

[DrDan]

61. why were car deaths not chosen for your argument - they, after all, are the leading cause of deaths

according to the posted statistics

[seabeyond]

63. why? what does it matter. there are two clear choices. give me a difference

i could argue car accidents also. it is just not as clear a parallel of an argument with gun. and sometimes it has nothing to do with parent driving. sometimes it does.

i can easily argue two yr old running in the street.

i could argue many of the accidents reporting death.

but pool and poison are exactly the same as a gun in your home

so

answer?

[DrDan]

64. guns have a single purpose . . . to kill

to kill is not the purpose of a car.

I can accept an accidental death in connection with an auto as an "accident".

[seabeyond]

70. no, guns do not have a single purpose. rhetoric. does a bow and arrow have a single purpose?

and what does it matter.

a pool is as enticing to a child. a pool is MORE dangerous per stats, to a child. a child ONLY drowns when they do not have vigilent parents.

[Pavulon]

76. Kids have accidents in their pants. Most "accidents" are negligence.

most auto "accidents" are caused by people operating a vehicle in a way that KILLS another person. FAR more people are killed in car accidents than gun accidents.

Purpose is irrelevant, the shit leaking out your nose and ears is the same color.

[X_Digger]

77. Please chime in here..

I've been asking this question for a while without a really good answer-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=292384

[seabeyond]

56. i guess the difference when all of us have shit happen and this family is it resulted in death and

we holier than thous can ignore our own oopses and self righteously condemn them.

has nothing happened in your life, where the moment passes and you say, fuck... i am lucky. heart pounding, sweat starting, think geeez, anything could have happened in this moment of lapse.

yet we dont have a death for the world to see and judge and condemn our "oh fuck"

aren't we fuckin the lucky ones.

some will be honest. the most strident of self righteous will ignore so they can continue to condemn

[DrDan]

65. then there are the apologists . . . .

[seabeyond]

71. apologists? wtf.... just not a self righteous, uncompassionate person that

is willing to be a hypocrite.

[seabeyond]

72. do you have a clue what my opinions of guns are? or do you continually

argue with lack of facts and information?

[Missy Vixen]

86. Leaving an unsecured loaded gun where a four-year-old could get his hands on it

is a hell of a lot more than an "oops".

Accidents happen every day. I'm submitting that some of these "accidents" aren't.

Calling me "holier than thou" is a bit over the top.

[madokie]

17. I feel the same way

:hi:

[seabeyond]

18. .

back atcha....

[thereismore]

4. Standard response: gun control would not have prevented this, because the boy

would have stabbed himself to death otherwise.

[Obamanaut]

6. If you mean responsible gun control by the adults in the home, yes it

would have prevented this.

[SlipperySlope]

9. My "close-to-standard" response.

This is a tragedy that should remind all parents (like me) how fragile a child's life is and how little children understand the risks around them.

The average home is full of lethal risks to children. More small children die each year in the home from accidental drownings, poisonings, or choking than from firearms. For the parents this happened to the loss is no greater because it happened due to a firearm.

Even a latex balloon can kill a child when left unsupervised.

Rail against guns all you want. The lesson for me, as a parent, is that risks are everywhere and I need to be vigilant.

Yes; this gun should have not been left where a child could reach it. But I'm sure every parent who loses a child due to the accident in the home forever regrets whatever it was that they left unguarded or unsupervised that led to that death.

[Vickers]

10. Excellent post: thanks. n/t

[seabeyond]

13. +1. thank you. i couldnt agree with you more. nt

[Arkansas Granny]

16. I'm not railing against guns, but I will rail against people who leave a loaded

firearm unsecured, especially when there are children around. While you are correct in your statement that accidents happen to children in the home all the time and that this family will forever feel the pain of the death of this child, leaving a loaded gun where it can be accessed by children should be considered criminal negligence.

[seabeyond]

19. throw their ass in jail for life. take other three kids and put in foster. every parent

that has a child die at home, somewhere, there was this supposed criminal negligence. in a vehicular accident. child running out into street. we all know the dangers of a car taking a two yr old down. no accidents allowed. build some more prisons.

[Arkansas Granny]

26. I think we can all agree that accidents happen, even to the most vigilant parents.

However, leaving a loaded gun where it is accessible to children does not qualify as an accident, IMO. It is an invitation to disaster.

[seabeyond]

30. tell me the parent that allows two yr old to run out in street, or drown in back yard pool

or get to poisons in the house. vigilant my ass. they, too, need to be in prison and no compassion at all for the loss

what is the difference of allowing child access to poisons or pool to access to a gun? how can you point the finger at one and not a finger at all.

because you dont like guns you elevate to a different level.

it is your own hypocrisy

[Arkansas Granny]

31. I have no problem with guns. I have a problem with gunowners who

do not properly secure their weapons, especially when the weapons are loaded and there are children present. A parent cannot always control every situation in which a child might come to harm. A parent can, however, keep loaded guns locked away from children and eliminate a potentially deadly accident from happening.

[seabeyond]

32. do you know the circumstances of this event. i don't. i am clueless.

can i draw the same conclusions with pools, streets and poisons?

the point, that all these are preventable. we know the dangers of all four of these situations. we know the risks. all are preventable.

but we would have compassion to the parent that finds there two year old face down in a pool (ALWAYS a present threat) but cut no slack, even without information, to the person with a gun

[Arkansas Granny]

39. I thought the article was quite clear about the circumstances of this event.

"The child apparently shot himself with a weapon that belonged to his father," said Walter I. Hofman, the coroner.

[seabeyond]

41. and that is all. was gun up in closet. kid pull chair out and go thru. was gun sittin on living

room table?

IF that is all it takes for the ondemnation of this event then i see no way you cannot condemn every. single. accident. ever.

[Arkansas Granny]

42. Was gun properly secured in a locked case? Apparently not.

[seabeyond]

44. and you have the same dogmatic point of view when a child drowns, poisons or runover by car.

i am sure.

was kid protected from pool. apparently not
was kid protected from poison. apparently not
was kid protected from the street. apparently not.

[Statistical]

20. "The lesson for me, as a parent, is that risks are everywhere and I need to be vigilant."

Accidental deaths by firearms are very rare. The media simply never runs stories on the thousands of kids killed by drowning, falls, poisoning, and other household accidents.

Top causes of deaths by unintentional injury (ages 1-17 year 2007) per CDC:

Cause of Death	      Deaths	Pct%
MV Traffic            3644	55%
Drowning              844	13%
Fire/burn             458	7%
Poisoning             379	6%
Suffocation           280	4%
Pedestrian, Other     208	3%
Other Land Transport  196	3%
Firearm               111	2%
Fall	               99	1%
Struck by or Against   92	1%
Natural/ Environment   81	1%
Other Transport	       62	1%
Pedal cyclist, Other   27	<1%
Machinery              18	<1%
		
Other Specified	       93	1%
Unspecified	       54	1%

[JonLP24]

25. Good point

I will point out AZ media does talk about drownings a lot because he have a lot of backyard swimming pools so they raise awareness as much as possible. We got a weather guy here, I think he works for AZ FOX that says "Watch your kids around water." after every weather report.

[stanwyck]

47. Could you post the link?

Thanks.

[Statistical]

51. Sure and here is a clearer chart.

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus10.html

It is dynamic so you need to generate it yourself.

I used the parameters:
Number of Causes: Top 20
Category of Causes: Unintentional Injury
Custom Age Range: 1 to 17

everything else was default.

In hindsight dropping it to top 10 makes the chart slightly clearer by consolidating some of the minor causes.

Rank Cause of Death                  Deaths  Percent
0    All Unintentional Injury Deaths  6646     100%
1    Motor Vehicle Traffic            3644      55%
2    Drowning	                       844      13%
3    Fire/burn                         458       7%
4    Poisoning                         379       6%
5    Suffocation                       280       4%
6    Pedestrian, Other                 208       3%
7    Other Land Transport              196       3%
8    Firearm                           111       2%
9    Fall                               99       1%
10   Struck by or Against               92       1%
11   All Others                        335       5%

Note this excludes accidental deaths <1 year of age (due to fact that CDC groups them separately and it would be work :) to combine the two). If they were included firearms drop to about 1.4% of all accidental deaths from ages 0 to 17.

[stanwyck]

36. I understand your point. But the purpose of a balloon is not to

kill. The person of a gun is to kill. And children see images constantly of guns killing people. They can't resist picking up a gun - just like they see the bad guys AND the good guys do on TV all day long. A balloon hardly has the same allure. Parents who have guns accessible to children (and so many don't believe they are accessible - when, tragically, they are) are accessories to homicide. Sure, risks are everywhere. That hardly excuses having lethal weapons - whose primary purpose is to be a lethal weapon --within the reach of a 4 yr old. That's total equivocation. Household items which kill and guns, specifically designed to kill - with continual imagery on exactly how to kill, are not the same. And comparing them is inane. I wish this child had parents who cared enough to keep the guns out of reach.

[Cid_B]

62. "They can't resist picking up a gun"

I did... grew up in a house with a few guns and often went to visit my grandfather home that had a @#$!ton of guns. I also knew my ass would be grass if I even approached without supervision....

Can't my ass...

[slackmaster]

38. In fact gun control did NOT prevent this. What's needed is gun safety education.

Some people (actually a lot of people) need to be explicitly taught about the dangers of failing to properly secure weapons.

[TheCowsCameHome]

7. No comment. The story speaks for itself.

[Statistical]

21. Antecdotes aside, the stats speak for themselves guns are not a significant risk to children.

Top causes of deaths by unintentional injury (ages 1-17 year 2007) per CDC:

Cause of Death	      Deaths	Pct%
Motor Vehicle         3644	55%
Drowning              844	13%
Fire/burn             458	7%
Poisoning             379	6%
Suffocation           280	4%
Pedestrian, Other     208	3%
Other Land Transport  196	3%
Firearm               111	2%
Fall	               99	1%
Struck by or Against   92	1%
Natural/ Environment   81	1%
Other Transport	       62	1%
Pedal cyclist, Other   27	<1%
Machinery              18	<1%
		
Other Specified	       93	1%
Unspecified	       54	1%

Still if parents are found to be negligible they should be prosecuted of course that goes for ALL forseable accidents not just guns.

The gun bogey man aide motor vehicles. drowning, fires, poisoning, and suffocation are the causes of 85% of accidental deaths for children.

[uncommon]

28. Yes - as sad as stories like this are,

it isn't due to widespread ownership of guns. It is due to negligence.

[Statistical]

35. Exactly. Roughly 80 million households have firearms.

Now how many of those households have children I don't have an exact stats.

However census tells us that roughly 1/3 of all households had one or more persons <18 years of age.

If* that nationwide metric holds true for gun owners that is roughly 25 million households w/ guns & children.
111 accidental deaths from firearms from a population of 25 million households.
99.9996% of households with firearms manage to keep them away from children.

* Now like I said this is an assumption that households guns have children at same rate as national average. That may not be true however even if the rates are slightly higher or lower it wouldn't meaningfully affect the rate of safe ownership.

[uncommon]

53. My ex-husband is a police officer and I know he has a gun in his house -

where my daughter spends half her time. I also know that he puts it safely away, unloaded and locked.

[wtmusic]

59. Guns are a very significant risk to children.

You forgot the "unintentional" part in your subject line.

"Risk factors for suicide among the young include suicidal thoughts, psychiatric disorders (such as depression, impulsive aggressive behavior, bipolar disorder, certain anxiety disorders), drug and/or alcohol abuse and previous suicide attempts, with the risk increased if there is situational stress and access to firearms.

<>

* Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner.
* Firearms are used in more suicides than homicides.
* Death by firearms is the fastest growing method of suicide.
* Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides."

http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&page_id=050fea9f-b064-4092-b1135c3a70de1fda

The stats speak for themselves.

[Pavulon]

82. So lets fix root cause.. Mental health care

is extremely expensive and if you do not have insurance consists of a 72 hour hold. In Japan people have no guns but still kill themselves at a very high rate.

You can post all the stats you want, gun control is done. Its untouchable politically speaking. People have determined it to be a bamboozle to allow a cheap act rather than a real fix.

Time to move on.

[wtmusic]

84. Different culture = apples/oranges.

Gun control is done? Huh...I can show you plenty of gun control on the books right now. :eyes:

[Pavulon]

85. Lots of it about to become unlaw.

it will not be part of the presidential or senatorial races and the party will not back it, because it is an albatross. Its done, it took a while after brown vs board for it to sink in but the gun control crowd will go the way of the kkk, they had their time and now they are relegated to an organization of idiots.. Its a right and you should expect to see a national ccw law, and dismantling of state laws that require a bribe to get a permit.

Its done.

[wtmusic]

90. No more gun control, eh?

Full auto in every household?

Dream on.

[X_Digger]

93. Which states have repealed CCW?

[wtmusic]

94. Every one of those states has gun control.

Blue, red, green, yellow. Every one.

[X_Digger]

95. Which way is the trend moving?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/117361/recent-shootings-gun-control-support-fading.aspx


http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/08/gun.control.poll/

Now, a recent poll reveals a sudden drop -- only 39 percent of Americans now favor stricter gun laws, according to a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll.

[Pavulon]

96. No more stupid bamboozle at my expense.

the ignorant and pitifully stupid position that a 15 shot magazine or cosmetic feature has an impact on crime is done. The requirement I pay a bribe to own a gun in some cities is done.

As for full auto that is regulated and I already have that right. I do not have the right to drive up the east coast with a sidearm without being subject to 30 arbitrary laws. Thats soon to be gone.

Count on it. Move on, you would have more luck reversing brown vs board of education.

[onehandle]

24. Cue the gungeoneers to defend their icon. nt

[seabeyond]

27. are you suggesting that i have an uncritical devotion to guns? nt

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

37. Dad failed to learn gun safety. It should be taught in public schools.

:argh:

[KansasVoter]

43. Public schools have enough to deal with without adding that.

[slackmaster]

50. They teach driving safety. Some of them even provide swimming lessons.

I can teach someone the basics of gun safety in less than one hour.

Surely schools can trade one hour of pine needle basket weaving for an hour of a vital life skill.

[proteus_lives]

68. Yeah, safety lessons.

God forbid.

:eyes:

[KansasVoter]

79. LOL......yes, because Guns are so important! Put idiot parents in jail and that might help.

[proteus_lives]

67. +10

[Maine-ah]

45. we just had one up here, a three year old

who died when Mom thought he was with his dad and his dad thought he was with his mom. Boy got out of the house, got into the car and he couldn't get out. It was 85 degrees that day. The car was estimated to be about 130 degrees. Little boy died at the hospital.

I hate to see such tragedy, and it does make me hug my little one that much more.

but, damn it. I'm a gun owner (I should say my hubbie is) and the guns are not with-in reach, nor are they loaded. Little kids get into everything. Guns need to be kept secure and safe, especially if you have a curious little one running around.

[mnhtnbb]

73. Oh, that is so sad. It's so hard to keep track of kids that age.

[seabeyond]

74. bullshit. i never "lost" my children, ergo.... should be easy enough for everyone else.

i think these parents ought to be strung up too. i cannot imagine a person not knowing what parent has the child

:sarcasm:

[mnhtnbb]

75. What is your problem?

[seabeyond]

80. the hypocrisy of chosing when to be compassionate and not. as if it is a flexible

emotion. judging when a person "deserves" our compassion.

[mnhtnbb]

81. I don't know what you think I meant, but there was no sarcasm in my post.

I know from experience, as a hyper sensitive to risk situations mother, how difficult it is
to keep track of toddlers.

Go back and look at the post.

[seabeyond]

83. ah... i really should have been more clear with you

this wasn't about your post. of course we have compassion for those two parents that had an oooops moment that resulted in the death of a child that they love with all their heart. they will be replaying the moment over and over... for a lifetime. they probably will not have much longer in their marriage, since these events tend toward a dissolving of the bond.

i am mad, because we can be compassionate for this family. feel this families pain. yet.... because it is a gun, we reek vengeance.

[TheMightyFavog]

87. Irresponsible idiot father.

Gun should have been unloaded, secured in a safe, (preferably separate from the ammunition) and locked with a trigger lock.

If you can't take these kinds of precautions, then your firearms have no place at all in a house with a young child.