This is one reason Americans wanted a Canadian style medical system

[nadinbrzezinski]

My brother did his residency at Toronto Gen, oh in the dark ages. SO one day comes two people into the Emergency Room. One was the Prime Minister of Canada, Mr. Mulroney, the other was a street person.

Unlike here, both received the same level of care and the staff did not care who was who in the zoo. Ok, with the PM they had to make a few allowances to his security team. But medically they did not.

Now do people get misdiagnosed in Canada? Yes.

Do people get treatment too late to make a tinker's damn of a difference? Yes.

Do Canadians STILL live three years more than Americans, by national health stats? Yes.

Does the system spend about half of what we spend? Yes.

And this was off the table... we are not even allowed to discuss this.

Now this is one of the many reasons the base is pissed...

Fired up and ready to go... not so much.

And yes I am glad that we got SOMETHING, but the President did not make the hard choices, or use his capital to put pressure on the House and the Senate. Again that is why the base is pissed.

Then we can go into Labor policies, or teachers, or the LGTB... or many other constituencies. And telling people they want just poutrage or that they will never be happy... will only help you to make friends and influence people, NOT.

Oh and yes I do get it how the system works, and how far the filibuster has been abused, or what they promised to do to take some bite out of it if they keep the senate (which I will believe when I see it)... but your approach is way off. You need to ask WHY people are pissed, not attack them. Leave the attack to the WH. I gave up on them caring or reaching out to core constituency. And if in November they lose... do me a favor and place the blame where it belongs. It is not with the voter by the way, though I expect it. Nor do I expect this to make any tinkers damn of a difference as in some people's eyes we just don't get it... sadly we do, far better than you believe.

Nadin

[Mimosa]

1. What we got wasn't 'the best they could do'

When Health Care reform came up in discussions with friends or associates I know are 'conservative' they were all wanting changes in the system such as expanded medicare, public option or a buyin to the Federal Employees panopoly of plans. Most people who've traveled know how health care works in France, Germany, Japan, the Netherlands and Canada. Most people don't want an NIH system, and we didn't have to go that way.

It wasn't the citizens of the United states who wouldn't approve of genuine reform (which was never discussed or pushed publicly) it was our bought and paid for politicians. The ones who are owned by lobbyists.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. You know that, I know that

and why more than just a few people are pissed, or rather disenchanted... is a better word.

[havocmom]

3. Yep

but we will be forced to pay up to the very industry that is the root of most problems with healthcare.

[LoZoccolo]

4. So why don't you do this.

Join and/or form an organization that advocates for this health care system you want, so people know how it works, so the Republicans can't just spend all of five minutes coming up with a handful of insane rumors about how it's going to end up killing people, so those people can elect the primary candidate who supports it (and can win the general, if you really want it you'll see it through to that point) and then you're done, you have what you want. It's really the only way in a democracy. Democracy doesn't mean you can expect to get what you want, it means you can expect to get what you build consensus for.

[Whisp]

5. well, actually the only way is to own the message

and buy up all the media.

Then you can get anything done.
Look how they are tearing down Obama and how many who should know better believe their shit.
When Bush was in office we knew the media made up crap, but now suddenly they are being truthful? I don't think so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. So the media has covered EFCA?

WOW I really missed that one!

I know the Unions are not amused since we are a UNION household.

Much of what the base is ahem disenchanted has not been covered, while other aspects have.

But whatever you want to imagine. I am giving you a clue. Start asking why the base is not quite fired up or ready to go... or not. You are not a political strategist. Sadly the ones who are seem to be exhibiting the same exact dismissive attitude.

And if they lose in November (there are reasons why they may do better than expected, but it is not the base which is fired up, it is the true crazee the other side is fielding, truly a less than two evils scenario)... I expect you to blame the voter. I just do, why? You already are.

[LoZoccolo]

11. I would think that they are a little bit enthusiastic if 85% of them support Obama. n/t

[Usrename]

9. There is consensus for Medicare for all.

That isn't the reason we don't have it. It's because we don't have real democracy, we have something much closer to oligarchy, a system where bribery has been sanctioned by the courts as "freedom of speech" and where fraud perpetrated upon the public has been sanctioned by the courts as "freedom of the press."

Money talks, it's the law.

[LoZoccolo]

10. Well I guess it's just time to give up then. n/t

[Usrename]

13. Or don't give up.

But if you're going to fight, at least try and know what it is that you are fighting.

[defendandprotect]

38. When everyone actually understands the WHY, we will hopefully begin to act -- !!!

And the WHY is corporatism -- fascism --

and pre-OWNED and pre-BRIBED elected officials!!

[Usrename]

42. That does ring true to me, too.

The people don't have a voice.

[defendandprotect]

44. Right -- only corporations have leverage over our elected officials...including Dems ...

[Usrename]

51. Money talks, it's the LAW.

Citizens United v Federal Election Commission

[defendandprotect]

55. We got along without the dollar bill until a few hundred years ago --

let's uninvent it -- !!

[Jim Sagle]

34. There WAS a consensus. The politicos suppressed it. Wake the fuck up.

[Greyhound]

47. Do you ever read the posts you comment on?

There

is

an

overwhelming

consensus

for

this.

Professional leftists, tea-baggers, and almost everybody in between agrees on this.

[me b zola]

And it is exactly for the reason of equity of health care

...that republicans, and those who enable them, hate it so much. Their entire world revolves around having something better than their neighbor.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. That's been my impression, too

They hate it that poor people have the same access to medical care as they and that rich people can't buy their way to the head of the line.

[me b zola]

6. And it is exactly for the reason of equity of health care

...that republicans, and those who enable them, hate it so much. Their entire world revolves around having something better than their neighbor.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Among other reasons

That is the Calvinist strain though.

[boppers]

12. Are you for, or against, US Unions?

The Unions screamed bloody murder about being taxed for getting better care than others.

Should the workers of the US be forced into lesser care plans, in order to have single payer?

[John Q. Citizen]

29. Lessor? i guess you haven't looked at many union health plans recently.

It's already lessor.

Single payer would provide far more health care because it keeps costs low, so there is a lot more money available for health
care.

I'm always amazed that there are people out there who are so unfamiliar with the concept of single payer that they reflexively assume a single payer system would mean less care for more people instead of more care for more people.

That's more care for more people, including union workers.

[boppers]

30. See "Cadillac Tax" debate.

For example:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/01/14/health.care.negotiations/index.html

[bvar22]

33. "Campaign" Obama hated the Cadillac Tax.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x420430

[John Q. Citizen]

40. Single payer isn't mentioned in that article. So i'm not sure why you pasted it.

SEIU and the AFLCIO have both repeatedly endorsed single payer health insurance as a solution to the health care crisis we all face.


So your contention that the unions are opposed to single payer is incorrect.

I support unions, and i'm glad that unions support single payer health insurance because they realize it's time we stopped being ripped off.

[boppers]

41. Under single payer, what happens to Cadillac plans?

If a Union fought hard to get a plan, and made wage concessions, to get a Cadillac plan, but single payer won't cover it, what then?

Two examples:
1. The current Union plan covers eyeglasses. The single-payer solution does not.
2. The current Union plan covers breast implants. The single payer solution does not.

Of course, there is a solution to this, where single payer covers *everything* all of the different Cadillac plans cover. Implants, dentures, Lasik, and so on.

Might be more expensive, though.

[John Q. Citizen]

48. Single payer covers whatever we decide to cover. From nothing, like many current

union contracts, to everything, like many current union contracts.

Which current union plan are you referring to in your two examples? What contract where? I'd be interested in seeing the details. Frankly, I'm skeptical about your breast implants. That sounds like hooey or like it's being distorted somehow.

I'm not sure you understand what single payer means, because what you write about it doesn't make any sense.


Single Payer will always be far cheaper than private insurance no matter what is or what isn't covered. In an identical coverage plan, single payer is significantly cheaper per enrollee.

That seems to be the part of the equation that you are missing here, the very real cost of not moving to a single payer system is dragging down the whole economy and putting union families and others, out of work. Then they can't afford COBRA and they lose all coverage they had, even if it was shitty.

I'm loving the unions like the California Nurses Association that are on the fore front of the struggle to get a system that works in place, a single payer system.

[boppers]

49. Breast implants are medically therapeutic for breast cancer survivors.

That's why it makes for an interesting issue to think about... what should a single payer system cover, and does everybody have identical coverage? What about CAM treatments like acupuncture, healing touch, chiropractic treatment, etc.?

I get your point about single payer and cost management, but are you willing to revoke some "benefits" that people have, because they are raw quackery, or do you think that single payer should cover whatever an individual wants it to cover, regardless of medical efficacy?

[John Q. Citizen]

50. I think that what Kitzhopper did in Oregon was quite instructive and a good way to view your

concerns.

As we all know, any new medical breakthrough and procedure brings out it's supporters and it's critics, at least until it gets the opportunity to be tested.

These questions of what to cover and what not to cover are far better debated on a public level than in the boardrooms.


For one thing, many procedures are simply indisputable. No body questions (except the mentally disturbed) the wisdom of setting broken bones, the wisdom of removing foreign objects that have punctured the skin and the body of a person if medically feasible.

why revoke benefits?

Why not revoke outrageous rip-off profits and mind numbing price gouging? That would accomplish the ability to pick and choose what to cover, since we could afford to cover it since we stopped the rip off.

Private insurance is a far bigger con than aroma therapy could ever be, my friend, a far bigger rip off. At least one gets a pleasant smell with aroma therapy, instead of the stench of criminal manipulation of our health care.

Aroma therapy will never come close to Etna. Or BCBS.

[TheKentuckian]

32. If your goal is quality, affordable health care for every American why would you tax benefits at all

It is bogus cost containment, a system designed to create an incentive for less comprehensive care.

The unions get hit first but over time this will catch more and more. You also omit that very serious wage concessions were generally made to get those benefits.

You act like this phony tax was necessary in some fashion. It wasn't and Obama campaigned against the concept but then turned around and DEMANDED it be a part of the bill. Similarly, he killed both the public option and both drug price negotiation and importation.

I think it also telling that he failed to even make so much as a token effort for middle of the road and common sense market based reforms like choice and access to competition for every American, a national exchange, or even ending the industry's anti-trust exemption.

There is no reform only limited expansion and insufficient subsidies for access to an unreformed cartel.

[TatonkaJames]

15. We'd all like Healthcare

My brother-in-law, disabled in the Tet Offensive in 1968 in Vietnam rolled into Canada last week from Virginia to get away
from the B/S going on in the US. They were so thrilled to be going to the Vancouver BC area. After some problems with the rental
they had and finding another they soon found out how expensive it is to live there. Everything is taxed so high I wonder if it's
all that we've been led to believe it is ? They are now on their way home to Virginia where it's cheaper to live.

[Newcanuck]

16. We all have Healthcare

So your BIL rolled into Canada last week, found it too expensive in BC, and is already going home? Well, that's certainly giving it a good try, isn't it?

Seriously though, I live and work in Ontario and probably couldn't afford to live in BC myself, even if I wanted to. I earn a reasonable salary, pay reasonable taxes and NEVER worry about having to pay for my healthcare - which is why I don't actually complain about paying said taxes.

I came here as an immigrant 16 years ago with very little in the way of funds, and, even though we're apparently "taxed so high", hubby and I have managed quite comfortably to raise 3 children, buy a house and cars, and generally have a pretty decent life here...even though he was out of work from August 2008 to December 2009 - during which time my son was hospitalized and had part of a lung removed. I never felt I would have to sell my house to cover the medical bills which, by the way, came to a grand total of $58.

[SlimJimmy]

17. I'd love to say it's great, but

the facts just don't support that. We (the US) are going to have to look at a more "hybrid" system if we are going to tackle this issue. Single payer is not the panaceac answer to our problems.

It cal­cu­lates that at present rates, Ontario will be spend­ing 85 per­cent of its bud­get on health care by 2035. "We can't afford a state monop­oly on health care any­more," says Tasha Kheirid­din, Ontario direc­tor of the fed­er­a­tion. "We have to exam­ine pri­vate alter­na­tives as well."

http://northshorejournal.org/canada-socialized-medicine-going-broke

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. You want to talk hybrid?

Look at the Mexican medical system. That is a hybrid system that is in a little more trouble than the Canadian system... and is inefficient as hell.

I love the fact that in theory people can get it, but it is the same way it is here. You get what you pay for... with some incredibly exceptions I know off.

Americans just want to believe, some do that is, that what they have north of the border could not work here... well because it is SOCIALIST, doncha know?

[SlimJimmy]

45. What part of the Canadian system is going BROKE do you not understand

or want to hear? The same thing is happening to the British and French health systems as well. We have to look at hybrid plans if we are going to avoid that fate. The status quo is not acceptable, but neither is a completely single payer plan. The problem is that neither side, theirs or ours want to compromise even a tiny bit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. You want to talk hybrid?

Look at the Mexican medical system. That is a hybrid system that is in a little more trouble than the Canadian system... and is inefficient as hell.

I love the fact that in theory people can get it, but it is the same way it is here. You get what you pay for... with some incredibly exceptions I know off.

Americans just want to believe, some do that is, that what they have north of the border could not work here... well because it is SOCIALIST, doncha know?

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Yes they pay money to get services

imagine that.

Taxes, the fees you pay to live in a civilized society.

If you don't want to pay taxes, worst case scenario, or best depending on your point of view... is Somalia. The tax rate is zero though.

[bluethruandthru]

19. A civilized country takes care of it's citizens...

that's what a society does. Taxes are the price we pay to live in a society.

We pay for police, fire department, a military, roads, sidewalks, traffic lights, schools, libraries, safe food and drugs, and on and on and on. Those are things that we, as a society, have asked for. When we pay alot in taxes, if we have proper oversight of our government, we should be receiving a lot in services. I think that's definitely the case in Canada as well as most of the rest of the world.

Maybe we pay less in taxes than the Canadians - but imagine for a moment what your life would be like if you never had to worry about going bankrupt or losing your house and life savings if you or your children got sick. Imagine not staying in a dead end job just because of the insurance benefits. Imagine working 2 part time jobs if that's what you wanted to do without worrying about not having insurance. Imagine being able to go to the doctor to get that lump checked out without putting it off because it costs too much. Imagine having to hold bake sales to try and pay for your spouses chemo treatments or raise enough money for a transplant.

I have a child with Type 1 diabetes. The care, insulin and supplies she needs just to stay alive is very expensive and I'm fortunate to have insurance...but that's expensive too and getting more so all the time. I live in constant fear of losing my job which would mean the end of her care...and I've been worrying about it for the last 10 years since her diagnosis.

I'll take higher taxes in order to never worry about that again.

[quakerboy]

39. Please excuse me for being skeptical

Seeing as I've been there, and it not that much more expensive than here, less than some places I've been, and taxes seem to have nothing to do with the price differences I saw. I understand BC is 12% on sales tax, 15% on Federal income up to 40k, and 5% on provincial income up to 35k. Compare that to 5% sales, 5.75% state if you make over 17k, and 15% federal on 34k for Virginia. Not much different, except they get health care. Slightly more on sales, .60 on a ten dollar purchase. Slightly less on state income tax, about $260 less if you make 35k.

Although, I suppose rural anywhere is probably a bit cheaper than large city anywhere. Perhaps they just didn't care for having a huge amount of east Indian food available? Are you sure it was the taxes? Cause their taxes were about the same, unless your BIL is making bank.

[tabasco]

52. LOL! What a load of crap.

In Canada, they get health care for paying taxes.

In the US, we get a war machine to enrich corporate profiteers for the same level of taxation.

Your post indicates a serious lack of intelligence.

[Cleita]

20. The President could not use his capital or

make hard choices because apparently the deal had already been cut before it even went to Congress.

[laughingliberal]

23. Excellent post! nt

[gratuitous]

24. Tut, tut

Verdict: Not sensible. Not sensible at all. Go sit in the corner and ponder your sins. Then report to Room 7A for your drug test.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Damn I thought you were going to send me to room 101

:hi:

[gratuitous]

26. We'll see how your drug test comes out, comrade

:hide:

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Rats, I don;t like rats

:-)

[Odin2005]

28. But, doing what the majority wants is so unpragmatic!

We have to suck up to the Elites, Why don't you just get off the drugs and accept our Corporatist manufactured reality like a good little peon? :sarcasm:

[BrklynLiberal]

31. A 99 44/100 % perfect post!!

[matt819]

35. And not only in health care

I lived and worked in Canada for a few years in the late 1980s, when Mulroney was PM. I lived one suburb over and worked opposite Parliament Hill. We'd see the PM leaving the grounds in a two-car "motorcade," stopping for lights and not disrupting traffic. And you'd somtimes bump into him taking a walk. Granted, the Canadian PM is not the leader of the free world, but there's something to be said for not exalting our elected leaders to near deity status.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Well there is that

too.

At one time the American President was able to do that. Then something happened on the way to Imperial Presidency...

:-)

Now in Mexico City it is not the Guv'ment gumming traffic (unless it is President Obama visiting, hey I got to SEE Marine One)... it is popular demonstrations.

The traffic report includes those.

[defendandprotect]

37. K&R --

[rasputin1952]

43. One of the things that is obvious to me, perhaps not to others...

is that for all of the "complaining" over the various medical systems out there, what we should be doing is using them as templates for what works and what doesn't. We are incredibly fortunate to be able to see how these systems operate, and we could easily tailor an American System that would shine above all others.

Another thing that is obvious to me, and apparently not to those who decry a single payer of government plan...instead of "bureaucrats" masking decisions, (which is a false situation), technocrats working to keep the bottom line for the insurance nice and neat. These desk jockeys have a tremendous amount of latitude, and they are extremely adept at finding ways for the insured to pay as opposed to their company's responsibility. i know of at least two cases personally where funding for life saving medical care was necessary, but the insurance companies refused the procedures, both patients died while their families tried desperately to appeal the decision of the insurance company. In both instances, 2 days after the patient died, there was a reversal...this would coincide with the notification to the insurance companies involved of the death of the patients.

That was about as a cold hearted decision as I've ever seen. But it how some companies operate. If the government "bureaucrats" had been there instead of those who rely on cutting costs, both of these individuals would have done, at the least, better than they did.

The only serious loss under single payer would be money pouring into insurance companies that find ways to actually deny coverage...and then bonuses, often in the tens of millions are paid out to those who helped kill off a segment of the population. I am waiting for the first insurance company to come up with..."we are sorry, but by your very birth, you began to take on risk. We consider your birth a pre-existing condition that could only be subject to various diseases and processes. Payment for your condition at this time is denied."

[Greyhound]

46. Nobody want our "health care system" except those that profit by it,

and those that have never been subjected to it.
:kick:

[roamer65]

53. It'll never happen here.

This country is too f'ing screwed up to do anything as logical as single-payor health care.

[inna]

54. K&R!!

:kick: