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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 01:06 AM
Original message
JFK: a balanced perspective.
Edited on Fri Aug-13-10 01:17 AM by apocalypsehow
With just a few hours on Google and a brief romp through my personal library, I was able to compose the impressive roll-call of definitive evidence seen below that President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, whatever else he was and did, was not a liberal by even the standards of 1963, let alone 2010.

He had what we would call “liberal” tendencies and instincts in some matters: he governed domestically on the slight left-of-center throughout his presidency, right up until the day of his tragic murder at the hands of a sad, pitiful loser named Lee Harvey Oswald.

But even here, the progressive of 2010 must pause: when I state “he governed domestically on the slight left-of-center,” I mean by the “left-of-center” standards of 1961, ’62, & ’63. That center has shifted significantly since those days, and in 2010 many of Kennedy’s views and policies in that regard would be considered either middle of the road, or even slightly on the conservative side of the ledger. Some would be considered outright Reactionary.

This is not to say JFK would’ve been a right-winger in 2010, as the wing-nut blogosphere and conservative talk radio always likes to claim: not a bit of it.

Instead it is likely that had JFK lived he would have moved further to the Left as time went by, just as his younger brothers did in the turbulent years that followed his tragic passing.

It is unlikely he would ever have become as liberal as his brother Ted, but he would almost certainly been to the Left of even the most “moderate” conservative, and firmly in the progressive mainstream.

We will never know, but that’s my best guess and opinion, and it, unlike so much else we’ve seen on the subject, is an informed opinion.

I predict the irrefutable facts I have presented will stir further anger on those invested in a false narrative regarding JFK not just because I insist on presenting them, but because they exist, as facts, at all. Anger because they are part of the actual ledger of recorded history in the first place, as opposed to the make-believe narratives which comfort some of those particularly enamored and bestirred by the life & times of the 35th president of the United States.

And they are irrefutable: backed up with those precious links that have been so clamored for, it only took me a few hours, the internet, and a bit of thumbing through my own personal library to run down ten proof-texts and bullet points showing that President Kennedy was not the idealistic, full-tilt liberal that some today would like to pretend he was. Had I more time to dedicate to it - a full day; a week; a month - the list & links would have run in the dozens, the hundreds, perhaps more.

This topic has long fascinated me, the deification of JFK the man by some on the progressive side of the ledger to an unreasonable, un-factual degree; Ronald Reagan has a similar fan club of fanatical worshippers on the conservative Right who treat him in a similar fashion as a magical demigod who could do no wrong.

Those who claim the label “progressive” should know better than to indulge in such fanciful hagiography, IMHO, but let’s put that aside.

To continue, when people get deeply invested in a worldview that rotates around a profound historical figure, whether it be Jesus Christ or John F. Kennedy (or Ronald Reagan), they begin to construct narratives that explain away that historical figure’s failings and exaggerate their accomplishments during that limited time on this earth we all have.

They start to remake the actual person who lived into an image that corresponds with their elevated estimate of them: they begin to make myths, and tell sacred stories about their great deeds, and mighty triumphs. Their defeats and failures are usually chalked up to the nefarious workings of enemies, traitors, the self-serving, the greedy, and other assorted agents of evil.

That’s how the New Testament got written.

And when that narrative is called into question, challenged, debunked, it raises the angriest kind of hackles from those so invested: it’s almost as if you are calling into question their core identity; and, in some instances, you are.

When the facts themselves, as facts, are unpalatable to the person(s) invested in not accepting them, ugliness often follows.

Hence the anger - the irrational, lashing-out anger, coupled with scornful incredulity - directed at the person who does not flinch from presenting those facts, and who insists they be respected even when inconvenient & troublesome, regardless of the circumstances.

That is the hallmark of a progressive way of thinking; the benchmark of a liberal way of reasoning and coming to grips with the world around us.

One I highly recommend.

Good evening.

JFK the anti-New Dealer:

"Mr. Roosevelt has contributed to the end of capitalism in our own country, although he would probably argue the point at some length. He has done this not through the laws which he sponsored or were passed during his presidency, but rather through the emphasis he put on rights rather than responsibilites." -John Fitzgerald Kennedy

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/progjfk1.htm

Eleanor Roosevelt's dislike for JFK, a dislike that was mutual:

"Eleanor Roosevelt, the beloved symbol of the liberals openly berated JFK in 1956 at the Democratic Convention for not having taken a stand against McCarthy, and repeated her mistrust of JFK in an interview for Look magazine in 1958. The lingering image of JFK and the McCarthy connections was another reason why JFK was challenged from the left in 1960."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/progjfk2.htm

More on Roosevelt & JFK's mutual contempt:

"She had left the 1960 Democratic Convention in tears when John Kennedy won the nomination. He was, to her, just Joe Kennedy's overreaching son, an arrogant young man who would not wait his turn...she had refused to sit on the inaugural platform with Kennedy and his family, wrapping herself in a mink coat and an Army blanket in the crowd below the stand." - Richard Reeves, "President Kennedy: Profile of Power"

http://www.amazon.com/President-Kennedy-Profile-Richard-Reeves/dp/0671892894

JFK's contempt for Adlai Stevenson:

"The party liberals, and Stevenson, felt that he deserved to be Secretary of State. JFK never considered the idea specifically because of the bitterness from 1956. JFK only offered UN Ambassador, a post that Stevenson resented as "beneath his dignity." So determined was JFK not to let a liberal run the State Department that he even rejected the liberals second and third choices, Chester Bowles and G. Mennen Williams."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/progjfk3.htm

JFK's irritation with & suspicion of the Civil Rights Movement:

"JFK's less than wholehearted feelings of affection for the movement would surface again two years later when both he and RFK would agree with J. Edgar Hoover that King needed to be wiretapped because at least one of his advisors had suspected communist ties,"

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/progjfk4.htm

JFK the unapologetic Cold Warrior:

"In a series of oral history interviews for the JFK Library, RFK said that "it was worthwhile for psychological, political reasons" to stay in Vietnam.
"The President felt that he had a strong, overwhelming reason for being in Vietnam and that we should win the war in Vietnam....If you lost Vietnam, I think everybody was quite clear that the rest of Southeast Asia would fall." (32)
John Bartlow Martin point-blank asked RFK "if the President was convinced that the United States had to stay in Vietnam." The one-word response was "Yes."


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/progjfk5.htm

JFK administration, an overview (money quote):

"Contrary to much Camelot romanticism, Kennedy never considered any policy other than military victory. Just three weeks before his assassination, in the wake of the overthrow of the Diem regime, he remained hopeful about the prospects for an intensification of the war, telling the press that he thought there was a “new situation” in Vietnam, which would lead to, “we hope, an increased effort in the war” (emphasis added). He added that the U.S. policy should be to “intensify the struggle” so that “we can bring Americans out of there” - after U.S. forces had subjugated the country, a goal he never renounced."

http://legalienate.blogspot.com/2009/05/false-saviors-john-f-kennedy.html

JFK trending Right in 1960:

"As senator, Kennedy had zigzagged through the long obstacle course of civil rights legislation, siding in most cases, as a Ted Sorensen memo to Bobby proudly explained in December 1959, ‘with our friends in the South.’ He meant white friends.” - Richard D. Mahoney, "Sons and Brothers: the Days of Jack and Bobby Kennedy"

http://www.amazon.com/Sons-Brothers-Days-Bobby-Kennedy/dp/1559704802

JFK's Foreign Policy - lots of Reagan, not much Ganhdi:

"In each of these chapters, JFK’s Cold Warrior mentality is evident in the people he trusted for advice... It seems striking to this reader to find that JFK’s policies differed little from Nixon or Reagan and yet his decisions do not appear to have shortened the Cold War at all—in fact they probably contributed to its longevity. Few will be impressed with JFK’s role in the arrest and imprisonment of Nelson Mandela or with the 163 individual covert operations he personally approved for the CIA to conduct in Latin America which, among other things, brought about the downfall of two democratically elected heads of state." (all emphases added)

http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/item/2010/0406/book/book_handley_jfk.html

JFK the Bystander:

"JFK, martyred liberal icon, turns out to have been wholly indifferent to the question of civil rights for black Americans. Kennedy, who built a political career on the sinking of PT-109, once told a fellow survivor, "My story about the collision is getting better all the time. Now I've got a Jew and a ****** (N-word) in the story and with me being a Catholic, that's great."

Reviewed by Kirkus: quoted from "The Bystander," by Nick Bryant

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Bystander/Nick-Bryant/e/9780465008261#editorialReviewsTab


See related thread here: Here


Edit: link fixed.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah, but he boned Marilyn Monroe.

:headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang:

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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. *That* I can definitely get on board with.
:toast:
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. He wasn't half the President he's made out to be.
It's funny how often people credit JFK with LBJ's accomplishments. There's a large contingent that prefer style over substance.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Absolutely true: LBJ had so many accomplishments, particularly on the domestic side, that made life
so much better for hundreds of millions of Americans. Everything from Civil Rights, to Highway beautification, to the War on Poverty, and the first serious environmental legislation. Among just a few.
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. Interesting read
The Kennedy family's extensive ties to McCarthy are particularly troubling.

I see people are already unreccing your post. Wonder how many of them have actually bothered to read it.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thanks! One of the things few people know is that Bobby Kennedy actually attended McCarthy's funeral
in 1957, long after McCarthy's kind of loathsome Red-baiting and character assassination had long been discredited.

The two brothers, Jack & Bobby, simply could not let go of their fascination with this fellow Irish American name-taker & ass-kicker who so dazzled their father, dated their sister, and impressed them personally with his take-no-prisoners approach to politics.

Indeed, Jack Kennedy himself once stormed out of a meeting where one of the speakers had said how proud he was that their organization had never produced "either an Alger Hiss or a Joe McCarthy."

"How dare you compare the name of a great patriot with a traitor" JFK said aloud as he stomped out: the "great patriot" he was referring to was not Alger Hiss.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. For some actual balance: "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died, and Why It Matters"
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Second the recommendation of "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died, and Why It Matters"
Edited on Fri Aug-13-10 01:56 AM by Mimosa
Also Jim Marrs Crossfire and Russ Baker's excellently researched tome of the Bush "Family of Secrets."

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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #7
26. Legacy of Secrecy is another great book
It uncovers many truths about the assassinations of JFK, RFK, and MLK.
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. Your use of mcadams as a source makes me want to puke.
Why are you posting this right-wing bogus nonsense about JFK?
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. noticed that too -- "the irrefutable facts" were mostly regurgitated Mcadams
Edited on Fri Aug-13-10 01:59 AM by villager
Somehow, that doesn't quite count as wide-ranging research...
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. False: it was not "regurgitated Mcadams." It was irrefutable facts, that happened to be hosted on
that website.

Why don't you try refuting the facts linked, instead of the host of those online facts? :shrug:

I think we know why....

:eyes:
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. False: You aren't researching, but linking to Mcadams' redactions
... of various texts, reflecting his own agenda.

I think we know why....



:eyes:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. False: you aren't reading the actual OP, but just making shit up and pretending the facts presented
aren't there.

:eyes:, indeed....
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. Making shit up? So your links to Mcadams aren't actually... links to Mcadams!?
Man, don't Bogart whatever you're on!
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Yes, making shit up: the links to "Mcadams" are not the issue, your insistence that the facts
Edited on Fri Aug-13-10 02:24 AM by apocalypsehow
contained therein are not actual facts is the "making shit up" part.

But, then, you knew that. Typical CT'er diversion when the facts are irrefutable.

Thanks again for the kicks! :hi:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. By the bye, why don't you pause for the slightest of seconds and deal with the FACTS in my OP,
instead of your obsession with nefarious "sources" (read: people who disagree with your point of view) you don't like? :shrug:

I think we know why....
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. Thanks again for the kicks, though.
:thumbsup:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. LOL...right on cue: when you can't refute the facts, attempt to slander the source.
How about, instead of fretting about "mcadams" (Sic), you simply counter the facts presented? :shrug:

Oh, yeah, because you can't. :rofl:

Please try again.
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Been there, done that. I don't waste my time with third rate sources.
You can shove your bait where the sun don't shine.

Bye....:boring:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. "third rate sources" translates to: "I can't refute your facts, so I'll just fling poo."
:boring:, indeed.

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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. LOL... right on cue: When you can't refute the replies, attempt to slander the poster
How about engaging in conversation with the other points raised?

Oh yeah, because you can't.

Please try again. :rofl:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery: outright plagiarism is even better. thanks. n/t.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. Hey! You were able to post a reply without a snarky smilie!
The snarky text we'll consider a lost cause, but consider this a personal great leap forward!
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I love snarky smiles, just like I love folks who keep kicking my threads.
:hug:
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Well -- of course you do. You wouldn't be "you," otherwise....
Alas.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Thanks again for yet another
:kick:
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
12. Apocalypsehow seems to have an odd anti-JFK agenda
This topic seems to have been started to escape questions which were asked of him of this topic:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8926393

And anybody spreading BS from the rightwing disinformation peddler, John McAdams, has an agenda.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Scarcely"balanced" to simply recycle Mcadams' website...
n/t
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. I agree.
The dude has a really weird anti-JFK obsession. I didn't know whether to laugh or puke when I saw he was quoting mcadams of all sources.

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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
36. I hope you puked - cause facts one can't refute need to be taken seriously that way.
Afterwords, when you had time to read, absorb, and reflect on my irrefutable facts, I hope you had occasion to laugh at the fog that had lifted from your mind over this part of history you had been ill-informed about, and that laugh reflected both your appreciation of me bringing it to your attention and your new-found dedication to historical truth over and opposed to myths, distortions, factual errors, and outright lies.

One hopes. :-)

Regardless, thanks again for yet another :kick: of my OP. :hi:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Actually, the topic was posted TWICE in that thread before "this topic" was turned into an OP.
Or didn't you read the thread linked in your own posted reply? :rofl:

And what, exactly, does an "odd anti-JFK agenda" look like forty-seven years after he, JFK, last had an "agenda" to pursue, as President?

It is to laugh.

More like I have an "agenda" for historical truth, which a militant few obviously lack.

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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Well, I guess an "odd-anti JFK agenda" looks like.. the OP right here
Some forty-seven years after the fact...
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. It's actually called a "factual dedication to the historical truth" agenda, and my OP is a prime
Edited on Fri Aug-13-10 02:19 AM by apocalypsehow
example of it.

However many years after the fact....

But thanks for the ongoing :kick:

Edit: typo.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. I know what it's actually *called*, by you, but of course, that isn't what it *is*
And hey, you're welcome! ;-)
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Thanks again for the kicks - I appreciate them. Keeps my OP up top for forum perusal.
:thumbsup:
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
37. But but but he was a saint! Or something.
I read Chomsky. I don't buy Kennedy hagiography and it's nice to see I'm not alone.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. "I read Chomsky. I don't buy Kennedy hagiography and it's nice to see I'm not alone."
You & me both. :thumbsup:
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
39. A necessary icon?
Edited on Fri Aug-13-10 03:43 AM by makhno
Seeing the replies to the OP, I can't help but think that the myth surrounding JFK is far more important to some people than any achievements of the man himself.

Do people find comfort in the image of an unambiguously positive, progressive historical figure from contemporary history? Is the myth that much more necessary to sustain personal convictions given the trying times we live in?

LBJ is tainted by his association with Vietnam. Nixon doesn't qualify due to Watergate and the difficulty of reconciling his significant domestic and foreign policy achievements with the man's complex and somewhat unlikeable persona. Carter cannot claim iconic status due to the very real economic pain under his presidency a majority of people still remember vividly and personally. I won't even bring up the last thirty years, as most of us have lived through the past four (now going on five) administrations and seen first hand that power lies and generally serves the interests of the few over those of the many, regardless of party affiliation.

Then, who remains to buttress our natural desire to maintain a faltering belief in the system? JFK, the progressive counterpart to Ronald Reagan in our collective political mythology.

Posters claiming a right wing bias in the OP's sources could look up similar accounts reported by such conservative stalwarts as Hersh or Alterman.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-10 04:54 AM
Response to Original message
40. ...
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