I like Dennis Kucinish, but either the party is not as left as him, or Robert Gibbs was right.

[LoZoccolo]

- If the party is as left as him, that fails to explain why he gets such a small percentage of the presidential primary vote.
- If you explain his small percentage of the primary vote in terms of apathetic voters, then Robert Gibbs was right in saying that they would not be happy even with Kucinish as president.

I'm not trying to disrespect Kurinich, only use him as a measuring stick for how left the Democratic Party rank-and-file actually is. Kucinich is cool with me now that he has embraced the sensible liberalism of woodchucks and made the pragmatic choice to make progress on health care reform while not abandoning his more extensive goals.

[golddigger]

1. That was a cheap shot using Dennis's name

in his self pitying statement and he should be ashamed.

[LoZoccolo]

2. Which candidate was he supposed to use as an example of the furthest left?

He was saying that there are people who will never be satisfied with the Democratic Party anyways, having rejected even it's most left-wing offering for president. How else would you make that point?

[golddigger]

4. Point to make?

He shouldn't have opened his pie-hole in the first place.

[tsuki]

28. It was a sneer. And Robert Gibbs knew what he was doing. nt

[BootinUp]

69. deleted

misunderstood you at first.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

3. Didn't you try to rally DUers to find a primary challenger to Dennis a few months ago?

[LoZoccolo]

5. I probably did that back in November. n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

10. If i recall it was this year...let me do a search. It was in March 2010.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7890246

[LoZoccolo]

11. Don't bother; I think you're right.

The point is that my major problems with Kucinich have been strategic. I understand that there will be a spectrum of viewpoints in the party, but I've always been very opposed to sacrificing progress.

[LaurenG]

15. What do you mean "sacrificing progress'?

How much more progressive are we going to get than Dennis?

[LoZoccolo]

18. Dennis threatened to vote against the health care bill because it wasn't good enough in his opinion.

He would have sacrificed that progress to try to get more, which probably was not going to happen, and may have set the issue back another 15 years.

[LaurenG]

20. Oh. I don't see him that way so I believe we disagree on that

I understand the fear and thus the reason for baby steps but I'd prefer to go for a bolder stance now.

[damntexdem]

30. So why are you trying to demoralize so many Democrats right before the Midterms?

Do you love circular firing squads?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

29. It all depends on what one's opinion on progress is. To me, a health insurance bill that

mandates participation, and which will fill the coffers of insurance companies, is regressive. If I were Dennis I would have voted against it too.

[phasma ex machina]

59. +1 the old "bait and switch" gives healthcare to the insurance companies nt

[Ichingcarpenter]

14. Yeah the Loco flag

Just do a search and you know what Loco flag he really flies.

[Bluenorthwest]

32. So March 2010 was the month of the Democratic Primary

And past the filing deadline, so in March Dennis was the Democratic candidate in the 10th of Ohio. He was our candidate, this Party's candidate, the candidate of Democrats, in March. It was way, way, past time to file for a challenge.

[Iggo]

6. But-but-but...that's the way the WIND was blowing!!!

Gah!

[LoZoccolo]

8. Come to think of it, it may have been later.

But it was still before he supported Obama's health care reform, which I now applaud.

[LoZoccolo]

9. duplicate

[LaurenG]

7. Lots of people are afraid of Dennis they are afraid of having to live up to more perfect standards.

They don't want to stretch for the radical* :eyes: *changes that would make life more pleasant. Just the thought of putting an end to survivalism is dangerous for many and it makes corporate giants and their supporters very nervous.

I love and respect Dennis and I am hopeful that one day he will be the standard bearer for Liberals.

[Kaleva]

26. I think he's more laughed at then feared.

[LaurenG]

31. nervously laughed at in most cases

You do realize that he was nearly assassinated for stopping corruption in his home town of Cleveland right? The man has integrity and that scares the DC types and their little corporate (lobbyist's)dogs.

[Bluenorthwest]

39. I think he is the Democratic candidate in Ohio's 10th

And I support our Democratic nominees during election time, as DU rules seem to suggest. If you find the Democratic candidate to be a laughing stock, who is it that you support there in November?

[Kaleva]

80. I didn't say I laughed at him.

I replied to the comment that Dennis was feared. From what i read here at DU, I get the impression that those who do not think highly of him do not fear him but believe he is a grandstander who talks much but accomplishes little.

In my view, Kucinich probably represents his district well which would be the reason he easily wins elections and doesn't face serious opposition in the primaries.

[Greyhound]

37. "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."

We seem to be at the transition from laughing to fighting, so maybe there really is some hope.

[LWolf]

12. Have you had too much to drink this morning?

You seem to be slurring a little.

[LoZoccolo]

13. If you could help me out by pointing out any particular slur I would appreciate it. n/t

[verges]

17. It's spelled Kucinich. nt

[LWolf]

74. Kucinish. Twice.

I thought maybe you'd had a few too many, or perhaps some dental work, and couldn't clearly enunciate his name.

[peace13]

16. Dennis is one of the few solid human beings in our government

I am sorry that his moral compass displeases you. Look inward to see why he is a disappointment to you.

[LoZoccolo]

19. I didn't mean to express displeasure with his ideas.

If you could point out where it seems that I do that, I think I still have time to edit it.

[Forkboy]

21. Your first 4 words are a lie.

You've gone after DK with gun blazing here for years, trotting out every RW talking point you could think of. You can't rewrite your own history when there's years of your posts here on DU.

[LoZoccolo]

22. Would you make the same argument with regard to Kucinich and abortion? n/t

[Forkboy]

62. Thank you for proving the point that you don't really like him.

You forgot to mention UFOs though.

[LoZoccolo]

65. I simply make the argument that a person can change their mind

with an example of someone changing their mind that you would accept.

[Forkboy]

72. And he's gone on to have a 100% NARAL and Planned Parenthood rating.

When you establish a track record that worthy of being taken seriously I'll do so. Until then I think you're full of shit about it. Sue me.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

23. Not exactly. He says he likes Kucinish. But he wasted lots of band with trashing Kucinich.

So technically..... :evilgrin:

[LoZoccolo]

24. Also, I admit above that I was rallying DUers for a primary challenge.

You're right; it's not a secret that Dennis was probably only second to Nader with regards to my scorn.

[Bluenorthwest]

34. But you did not point out that you were calling for a challenge

long after the deadline to file, just before the primary election, when Dennis was our only candidate, we being Democrats. That is what it is.

[LoZoccolo]

36. I didn't bother to check all that before I made my unartful comment. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

38. So you were in fact, calling for the defeat of the sole

Democratic candidate, because you could not be bothered to do otherwise. The choices on that day were Dennis or a Republican. And yet you come here claiming to like Dennis? You lack credibility. After that display, you should be attempting to balance your attack on Dennis, as the general is drawing near, and he is the Democratic candidate. You have campaigned against him in the past when election was very near indeed. This makes twice.
Dennis Kucinich is the Democratic Candidate in Ohio's 10th. Yet some on DU when asked, refuse to say they support his election.

[LoZoccolo]

41. The post explicitly said "It might be too late for 2010".

It then called for a challenge in 2012, also explicitly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7890246

[LoZoccolo]

43. "You lack credibility."

Says the person who didn't check the post he was referring to.

[Bluenorthwest]

45. Ah, poor guy, no I did not review your postie

I remembered it, and had no desire to go back to read it again. You were campaigning against the Democrat, and if that was in error, apology was in order, not demands that hairs be split on your behalf. The day you posted that, good Democratic volunteers were, as they are today, working to elect our Democratic candidate and you did each and every one of them a disservice. You were working against them. If you were in error, as you claim, where is the chagrin for even appearing to support the other candidate, from that other Party?
People make mistakes, but those who realize it make amends, not another round of pre-election rhetoric flinging. Shall we send this thread to Kunicich volunteers in Ohio, and see whom they feel is credible?

[LoZoccolo]

47. Every candidate in a primary who is not uncontested is campaigning against a Democrat.

I thought that was the point.

[Bluenorthwest]

51. Dennis was the only Democrat in that primary

If one wanted a Democrat, he was the Democrat. No one challenged him, and you started talking about it when it was too late. It was uncontested. No one even filed to run. No one wanted to challenge him. Except for you, but you failed to plan in advance. Not that that stopped you.

[LoZoccolo]

55. In which primary? 2010, or 2012? n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

49. Since you asked, here is a post from three days after

you were informed that Dennis was the Democratic candidate.
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7912790

Here's background, from 2007, I was not even here then...
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3626465

Here is a nice one from last year, in which you claim his wife is paid to be his wife, among other things.
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6990086&mesg_id=6990086

But of course, you like him, and only went after him post primary filing date due to negligence.

[LoZoccolo]

50. Yes, I knew that.

That's why I sought a challenge in 2012, not 2010.

[Bluenorthwest]

52. So knowing he was our candidate did not stop you from

going after him? Of course not, years of posts show that going after Dennis is a pattern for you. His 'paid wife'?
Can you explain that comment about Mrs Kucinich, can you offer any form of proof for that rather lurid accusation against a good, Democratic woman and her husband?
What exactly, specifically did you mean by that comment? His 'paid wife'? Are you willing to back that slander up with facts, with proof? Upon what do you build that tawdry accusation?
You asked me to review your posts, so I did. 'Paid wife' really stood out. Glaringly so.

[LoZoccolo]

56. He had not yet won the 2012 primary. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

58. Craven and redundant reply

You were asked what you meant by 'paid wife'. What did you mean by that? Seems to me the implication is very nasty indeed. But there must be another explanation, so you have been asked, now twice, to clarify what you, by choice, wrote in your own words about Elizabeth. Those were your words of choice, carefully selected by you. Paid wife.
Will you even try to defend that? Do you have any idea what your evasion looks like to anyone who reads this thread? Paid Wife. And you stammer about 2012. During a general election cycle that is hugely important. Paid wife.
Your words, but even you are afraid to own them. Craven.

[LoZoccolo]

78. I'm back from work so I can reply.

I remember that post a little, but I don't remember the context. It might have been a copycat of another post accusing a Democrat of discrediting progressives, so I fired back with an over-the-top conspiracy theory of my own as satire. I can't be sure. I do admit to using troll tactics occasionally to make a point, but I am still a Democrat. I don't do things like that as much anymore after the announcement of the new rules and the cull that's been going on since, since a lot of people who I thought were disruptive have been tombstoned and I'm not as tempted to break the rules when dealing with them.

[Forkboy]

63. Uh oh!

:rofl:

[Ignis]

44. Post 21: Proven correct.

Honesty really is the best policy.

[LoZoccolo]

46. So because I have past anti-Dennis posts, I cannot like him now? n/t

[Ignis]

53. Can? Yes. Do? Doubtful.

Your past attacks have been so vicious and over-the-top that this sudden change of heart beggars belief.

[Forkboy]

64. Nobody is buying it.

Did you know the word "gullible" isn't in the dictionary?

[LoZoccolo]

66. I have pro-Dennis posts that stretch back a few months.

If my history of anti-Dennis posts can be used to established something, why not the pro-Dennis posts as well?

[Forkboy]

70. Well get back to us when your "pro-posts" stretch over as many years as the shit posts did.

But really, even then most people won't buy it. Your first response to me I this thread, a thread where you claim to like DK, was to immediately attack him to get at me. You betray yourself with your own words.

I personally think any "pro-post" from you is really just a steaming pile, and it'll take you many years and many actions before I even remotely give you the benefit of the doubt. More power to you if you can prove me wrong over the coming years, but I doubt you will. You couldn't even make it through a single response before reverting back to how you really feel.

[LoZoccolo]

73. I could have said "yes, I do" and you could have said "no, you don't" and I could have said "NO U"

because there's no way for me to really prove that I really like Kucinich, but when I see it's going to come to that, I can sometimes think of an example where my opponent would have to contradict themselves somehow if they were going to keep making an assertion. If I truly felt that years of pro-life support proved that Dennis could not possibly now be pro-choice, or even if I felt that bringing it up made him look insincere, I would actually be doing myself a disservice by bringing that up because you could turn around and say the same of my pro-Dennis posts.

I'm at work so I can't post much, but think about that.

[Ichingcarpenter]

25. He's talking about Dennis 'Kucinish'

his next door neighbor who he shares a beer with sometimes.

not Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich

Obviously........LOL

[damntexdem]

27. Your statement is illogical.

You seem to say that unless most Dem voters are as far left of Kucinich, then liberals should shut up. Would it follow that unless most Dem voters were as far right as Ben Nelson that the Blue Dogs should shut up? Would it also follow that when Obama's approval rating drops below 50% then he should shut up.

Are you biased against the left, or or you just opposed to all arguments for one's political position if that position cannot be shown to have majority support?

[Individualist]

35. When has he ever posted a logical statement?

[Bluenorthwest]

33. You were calling for his defeat in the month of the election

in which Dennis had no Democratic opposition. He was our candidate, the Democrat's, and you were wanting people to vote for someone else, long after the deadline to file had passed. And that makes the first four words here very suspect.

[hfojvt]

40. DK was marginalized by the media and by the party

Not included in the Iowa debate on PBS. Not included in the New Hampshire debate. Compare how Richardson was treated to how Kucinich was treated. Richardson was treated as a serious candidate even though for most of the primary he polled at lower than DK. Still I remember reading an article about how Richardson might surge and become a strong 3rd place or 2nd place candidate. I doubt if there were any such articles about Dennis. We had a debate watch party at a local restaurant. Afterwards, one guy was talking to our waitress and she said she kinda liked Dennis, but she was hestitant about it, like it was something to be ashamed of, like the guy might laugh at her for saying that. That helps to explain why Dennis does so poorly in Presidential primaries.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. you couldn't manage to spell his name right in three tries.

here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kucinich

"Kucinish" "Kucinish" "Kurinich" finally it fell out by accident: "Kucinich is cool with me now ", as you and your friends here continue to slam the left wing of the Democratic Party and DU day after day after day. Woodchucks cause splinters. Unity by assault?

[AndyA]

48. Gibbs should have a big drink of shut the f*ck up.

His comment was uncalled for, and is now being used by the GOP against Democrats.

If Gibbs is really that stupid, he should be fired.

[w8liftinglady]

54. I endorsed Kucinich in the primaries.I guess I am one of the awful left.

...probably because
as a nurse-Legalizing medicinal marijuana and decriminalizing non-medical possession.Creating a single-payer system of universal health care that provides full coverage for all Americans by passage of the United States National Health Care Act.
as a soldier's mom-His commitment to immediately withdrawing the troops-since it was obvious the same troops would keep going back...and back
as a high school senior's mom-Guaranteed quality education for all; including free pre-kindergarten and college for all who want it.
as the family member of multiple union members-Immediate withdrawal from the World Trade Organization (WTO) and North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)

more here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kucinich_presidential_campaign,_2008


I understand why his stances would never succeed,but to criticize him in such a way is uncalled for.

[Radical Activist]

57. I would guess around half the party is as liberal as Dennis.

There are other reasons why he doesn't do better as a candidate.

You're pointing out one of the concerns some progressives had about Kucinich's last campaign. When he does very badly it gives the impression that his positions have little appeal. But it actually has much more to do with his inability to run a serious campaign at the national level.

[Bluebear]

60. 'I'm not trying to disrespect Kurinich' = well that's new.

Kucinish, Kurinich, whatever right?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

61. Doooga doooga doooga!!! nt

[ZombieHorde]

67. Will you please post the quote which is right if DK is to the left of the Democratic Party? nt

[bvar22]

68. I fear that LoZoccolo may be right.

Democrats who want to End the Perpetual Wars,
Reduce Pentagon Spending,
and believe that Americans deserve the same quality of Health Care that the rest of the civilized WORLD takes for granted....
THOSE Democrats may not belong in today's "New Democrat" Party.

Thanks LoZoccolo and Mr. Gibbs for putting this into plain words.

[RandomThoughts]

71. I think they are doing pretty good.

Although not a fan of triangulation. And some things I disagree with.

Mostly today I am just thinking about another day typing here when it is a nice day out, places to see beers to drink.

[mmonk]

75. He is not a media creature like the ones that win.

The party can't keep as right as it is now and keep me in it. The only reason I haven't left is the other side has become so extreme as to be dangerous to be elected.

[LaydeeBug]

76. Fail. False choices et al. nt

[quaker bill]

77. I hate to say it

but this has less to do with the message than the messenger. DK simply does not project a presidential image, and never has. Dean got far closer because he had more of this, and Obama won because he takes it to another level.

People love to think that it is issues that matter, it is flattering to us to believe this. If issues actually mattered, Bush would never have come close enough to have it stolen for him, twice.

You can have all the "right" positions, but if the camera does not treat you well, then you might as well hang up the cleats.

Correlation does not equal causation. DK was never going to and will never be President. A more articulate person with better stage presence, could take the same message and go alot farther, probably still not win, but at least come close.

[sendero]

79. Americans don't vote for issues...

... or positions, they vote for physical appearance and personality.

DK is great on the former, not so much on the latter.