The Muslim Canadian Congress has come out swinging against a mosque at ground zero.

[snagglepuss]

The Muslim Canadian Congress has come out swinging against a mosque at ground zero, says it is "equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox Church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 6,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered”

Make no mistake, Tarek Fatah and Raheel Raza, authors of the Ottawa Citizen article and MCC board members are vocal, progressive Muslim activists in every sense of the word, committed to exposing the danger Wahibi Islam poses to the West and to moderate Muslims world-wide. Born and raised in Pakistan, both have witnessed what radical Islam has done to their country. One reason they oppose the mosque is that they are not convinced that Saudi money won't be used to finance it which they believe wotuld be a slap in the face to the US as the hijackers were Saudi. Fatah and Raza also believe that it would be repugnant to bring $100 million into the United States rather than spend it on dying and needy Muslims in Darfur or Pakistan.

A lot of the opposition to the mosque is based on bigotry, however it is clear that there are many Muslims who themselves have serious questions about this undertaking.



Mischief in Manhattan


We Muslims know the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation


By Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah
Ottawa Citizen Special August 9, 2010

snip

Let's not forget that a mosque is an exclusive place of worship for Muslims and not an inviting community centre. Most Americans are wary of mosques due to the hard core rhetoric that is used in pulpits. And rightly so. As Muslims we are dismayed that our co-religionists have such little consideration for their fellow citizens and wish to rub salt in their wounds and pretend they are applying a balm to sooth the pain.

The Koran implores Muslims to speak the truth, even if it hurts the one who utters the truth. Today we speak the truth, knowing very well Muslims have forgotten this crucial injunction from Allah.

snip

As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media, who are blind to the Islamist agenda in North America, we understand their goodwill.

Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within.


http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html




On August 10 Raheel Raza, delivered a letter to Imam Faisal Rauf in which the Muslim Canadian Congress challenges Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf about his claim that building the mosque will increase tolerance for Muslims when the evidence is the exact opposite. “Do you not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox Church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 6,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?”

snip

“The Qur'an commands us Muslims to, 'Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book' -- i.e., Jews and Christians . Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers, is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of “fitna” (meaning 'mischief-making,' an act clearly forbidden in the Qur’an.”

snip

If Imam Rauf is serious about building bridges, then he could have dedicated space in this so-called community centre to a Church and Synagogue, but he did not. He could have proposed a memorial to the 9/11 dead with a denouncement of the doctrine of armed jihad, but he chose not to.


Read entire letter at
http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20100809.html






FYI

http://www.raheelraza.com/about.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek_Fatah

[xchrom]

1. I have to accept old school, bigoted Christians of

All sorts and their places of worship in all kinds of places
I wish they weren't.

Kind of the point of being American.

And I'll take notions of sacredness only up to a
Point. Past that it becomes irrational.

And this 'mosque' business is passing irrational.

[snagglepuss]

2. I agree it's irrational but it's proving to be very divisive. Fatah and Raza

make the point that there are 30 mosques in NY so there is no real need of another and that if this were to be a community centre to promote tolerance than a church and synagogue should have been included the plans or at least a memorial. I personally don't think good can come from the divisiveness this has caused.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. Why does it matter what some Canadians think? Why is 31 mosques too many? n/t

[snagglepuss]

12. It is a Muslim organization and if I am not mistaken they part of the ummah

so they are not out of place commenting on any issue that may affect the larger community.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. They can comment all they want, but why does it matter what they think?

They're Canadians, and while their stuff would surely appeal to American right-wingers and Islamophobes, their opinion is about as valuable as that of someone in Aceh saying what they want to happen New York City.

Also, why is 31 mosques too many? I didn't realise there was supposed to be some limit on certain types of buildings in NYC, or are mosques the only ones that this sort of limitation should apply to?

[snagglepuss]

31. As Raza and Fatah state and I concur, spending $100 million to build an

unnecessary mosque in NY is repugant when millions of Muslims in Pakistan and Dafur are in dire circumstances.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. So there should be a ban on building mosques in the US?

Because that's where that particularly repugnant 'argument' heads if taken to its logical conclusion...

[riderinthestorm]

56. Why isn't the "logical" conclusion that $100 million is better spent on relief aid

instead of building another mosque/community center in a city with 31 mosques in place already?

[Violet_Crumble]

63. Have you made the same demand of other building developers?

Or is it just this one?

And what's the big deal about 30 or 31 mosques? It's almost like yr trying to say there's too many mosques in NYC...

[riderinthestorm]

73. Absolutely I have. Especially when they have religions pretentions.

I actually DO believe there are too many religious institutions. So sue me. I don't actually give a shit about how many religious mosques there are, but suffice it to say, as far as I am concerned, there's more than enough already.

And yes, I lived in Wheaton Il for many years where religious hypocrisy knew no bounds. I can and have challenged numerous building developers to put their money where their mouth is. In public. Out loud.

[MattBaggins]

136. What should be the number of mosques in NYC?

How many is too many and how many Christian churches should be allowed per-capita in America or should it be based on square mileage?

[Yupster]

133. My own opinion is that it shouldn't be prohibitted

but it shouldn't be built either.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

People should be deferential to the feelings of their neighbors -- especially religious people.

[burnsei sensei]

77. +1 nt

[blogslut]

88. I live in a town with a population of just under 14,500

We have 20 churches. That means one church for every 725 residents. Strangely, despite that fact that numerous people from other religions live here, there is not one Temple or Mosque or other non-Christian house of worship.

According to city-data, New York city is home to roughly 285,600 Muslims. With 30 Mosques, that comes to one Mosque for every 9,520.

Can you explain to me, an agnostic, what you mean by an unnecessary Mosque?

[riderinthestorm]

91. I just have to say that not every Muslim is "practicing"

nor is every Christian or Jew or Buddhist or whatever designation they give themselves.

It's disingenuous for the left to pretend otherwise and make up strawmen arguments about this. I lived in Wheaton IL for many years, more churches per capita than anywhere else in the US. That didn't mean everyone who "said" they attended church, actually "attended" church. What religious people SAY and what they DO are completely separate in my experience.

[blogslut]

92. So, how many Mosques is too many?

For New York City?

[riderinthestorm]

94. None. I think all religious centers are divisive.

I believe religion is a major factor in society's problems.

[blogslut]

96. Isn't that just an non-adherent strawman?

And blatant avoidance of the question?

[riderinthestorm]

105. No. It answers it fully and completely. nt

[blogslut]

108. LOL

OK.

Incidentally, the big town 20 miles away has a population of just under 200,000. They've got about 200 Churches.

[snagglepuss]

112. As the MCC states NY has 30 mosques and is well served . The position

of the Muslim Canadian Congress is that given that 30 mosques are more than enough to serve the needs of Muslim New Yorkers, that money would be better spent helping war and flood ravaged Muslims in Pakistan and Dafur.

[blogslut]

113. So

30-31 Mosques is enough?

Why is it enough?

[Violet_Crumble]

116. I've asked the same thing and not got an answer...

I'm wondering if Snagglepuss can tell us how many churches and synagogues are enough, and what the funding details are for each...

[Violet_Crumble]

16. self-delete...

[davidinalameda]

3. I posted the column the other day

and people jumped on me for posting it

I agree with the columnists


and interestingly enough, I just went to recommend this and the number of recommends is zero

[Violet_Crumble]

11. People 'jumped' on you because you blamed Muslims for 9/11

Intolerance isn't something to be proud of, and it's sad to see that it's not confined to Republicans who are driving the opposition to the cultural centre...

[davidinalameda]

132. they certainly weren't Buddhists

and you must have forgotten the response to 9/11 in some Muslim countries

I don't have to tolerate hatred

[ohheckyeah]

4. Even jackasses have constitutional

rights.

[riderinthestorm]

6. I don't think the authors of this article are dealing with the constitutional issues here

They're targeting the rest of the emotionally laden idea of the mosque/community center and it's location... with a new twist of fears about Saudi $$ as the real kicker and the implications of that.

[snagglepuss]

10. For them as Muslims this is not about whether anyone has a right to build

a mosque at that location. Given how this has unfolded, given that this has caused "mischief" and stirred up divisiveness, they question the motives behind what has been a provocative decsion. Like they say, Muslims would be enraged if a church was built where 6,000 Muslims were killed. Their larger concern is whether Islamists are behind this undertaking because Islamists have learnt how to deftly operate in democracies to achieve their ends.

[riderinthestorm]

13. Oh, I get it. And don't think it will end even when it's built (and it will be built). nt

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Muslims were killed in the WTC attacks as well...

Like they say, Muslims would be enraged if a church was built where 6,000 Muslims were killed.

Apart from the fact that Muslims were also victims on that day, that argument yr repeating is making the assumption that Islam carried out the attack and that Muslims are held responsible.

[riderinthestorm]

25. There are American Muslims speaking out against it's construction too. nt.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. So what?

[snagglepuss]

33. Who saying anything about Islam carrying out the attack?

[Violet_Crumble]

35. They're holding the religion responsible...

This is what you said: 'Like they say, Muslims would be enraged if a church was built where 6,000 Muslims were killed.'

[snagglepuss]

45. Did you read the article? That quote is about the massacre at Srebrenica.

"The MCC challenges Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf about his claim that building the mosque will increase tolerance for Muslims when the evidence is the exact opposite. “Do you not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox Church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 6,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?” the letter asked."

[Violet_Crumble]

51. And what they said is blaming an entire religion...

“Do you not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox Church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 6,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?” the letter asked."

How is it equivalent?

Again, Muslims were murdered in the WTC attack, along with people of many religions.

[riderinthestorm]

5. Bigots!

:evilgrin: (sarcasm off)

Actually, I think I'll just settle down with my wine and some popcorn.... :popcorn:

[Violet_Crumble]

8. Could you point out any non-bigoted reasons for opposing the building of the centre?

Me, I'm still trying to understand what business it is of Canadians what should and shouldn't be allowed to be built in New York City.

Just out of curiosity, are you opposed to the building of the centre?

[snagglepuss]

14. They are Muslims and both are vocal opponents to Saudi funded

Wahibism which is being foisted on Muslims through-out the world most notably by means of Saudi financed mosques world-wide.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. I see there's still no attempt to give a non-bigoted reason to oppose the centre...

I certainly hope yr not going to try to make out the mosque is a hotbed of extremism because that would be a very silly and very intolerant thing to try to argue on DU.

[snagglepuss]

29. Are you claiming that Fatah and Raza are bigots? That the MCC is filled

anti-Muslim bigots? If financial information about the funding is withheld why is it silly for anyone to question whether Saudi money is behind this?

[Violet_Crumble]

44. I'm saying they're just like that black KKK guy...

They appeal to the bigots who hold them up as some sort of feeble attempt to make out that they themselves aren't bigoted...

[snagglepuss]

78. Fatah was jailed twice in Pakistan for his leftist political views. He is a man who has

suffered for his convictions. Who are you to insult someone with his strength of character? When have you been imprisioned for your political convictions?

[Violet_Crumble]

81. So what? He's still a handy tool for Islamophobes to cling to...

I didn't realise just because someone goes to prison we're supposed to drool over them and worship them. How ridiculous!

[aquart]

36. Anything not pro-Arab is bigoted?

Any disagreement is bigotry?

The building could (and most likely will be) an empty, unused shell AND STILL BE AN INSULT reeking of me me selfishness and insensitivity.

But I rest tranquilly. Having seen the projected cost (building it in New York means double that every Monday) and the lack of live in the area Muslim population to support the features offered meaning it's going to be a white elephant money pit forever, I'm now quite comfortable with the project.

I hear Gaza needs a water treatment plant. Think the Saudis could build them one for a hundred million?

[Violet_Crumble]

48. No, try reading what I asked. It's not that difficult...

I asked for any non-bigoted reasons behind opposition to the building of the cultural centre. Yr the first person to bring up Arabs, and I've got no idea why...


Anyway, if you are able to think of even one reason for opposing the building of the cultural centre that isn't bigoted, I'd be interested in seeing it...

[Posteritatis]

28. And is this 'mosque' a Wahabbist mosque funded by the Saudis? (nt)

[riderinthestorm]

32. The funding is extremely unclear. There have been direct questions and no answers

as far as I can tell. That fact alone drives a lot of the 9/11 families who are against it's construction. This group that's building the center could do themselves a lot of benefit if they would open the books at this point.

What a mess.

[snagglepuss]

34. At this time, that is unknown because the funding has not been made public.

[Posteritatis]

37. Best to just assume malevolent conspiracies then, I suppose. (nt)

[riderinthestorm]

47. Oh I'm not but if you don't think that's a factor, you are living in la la land. nt

[Posteritatis]

69. You might not be, but enough people around here are

Like the person I'm responding to who's claiming it's a Wahabbist site, or those complete idiots posting here and there in the last couple of weeks claiming - explicitly - that Osama bin Laden is the one building the centre, et cetera ad nauseam.

If people are pre-convinced that it's that evil they're going to find, handwave, misinterpret or fabricate any evidence they need to support their point, but when it comes down to it I do think that most people who have a problem with it don't have anything more coherent to offer than standard Green Scare bullshit, especially the ones who are mendacious enough to still be claiming the site's "at ground zero."

[riderinthestorm]

76. Sigh. I know.

I really wish the owners of the site would be more transparent FOR THEIR SAKE. Clearly, obviously this whole thing is blown out of proportion. It's ridiculous.


And yes, I know it's 2 blocks away but I have an acquaintance who lost her husband there. Vaporized. She insists his ashes are within that 16 block area that keeps getting mentioned... if you haven't had a "9/11 family member" up close and personal, let me tell ya, it's a trip. I don't take up the flag for her sake really. I guess I'm more a universally anti-religious whackjobbery nutcase than anything.

I can't believe the owners of the site never envisioned this as a problem. THAT stuns me. And now when they won't open their books? They are laying themselves wide open for the craziness that's happening imho.

[snagglepuss]

Who on this thread has said it is a Wababi site? The MCC has raised the

question given that funding has not been made public. Since Saudis have been funding mosques through the world for years it is a very fair question to ask.

[Posteritatis]

102. You and the article's author are both going past asking and into implying or accusing

The silliness about "the funding hasn't been made public, therefore let's all assume the worst" doesn't help anyone, and I frankly doubt people demanding the funding to be made public - as though it's even our business - would be satisfied if it was no matter what the contents were.

[snagglepuss]

109. It is their business because they are fellow Muslims and this project

they say can be construed as fitna (mischief making) that is forbidden in their religion. Furthermore this project has engengered serious devisiveness, devisiveness that was foreseen and could have been avoided. As for funding, I don't see why the public not be told who is financing a $100 million mosque. Given that this project is supposed to be all about harmony and goodwill everything should be transparent otherwise the whole project is a sham.

[Violet_Crumble]

129. I find it telling that you ignore every Muslim that disagrees with yr agenda...

Someone being Muslim doesn't make what they're saying right. I'm more familiar with observing antisemites than Islamophobes, but antisemites have a habit of picking someone who's Jewish who's said something that fits their agenda and repeating over and over and over again that the person is Jewish so everyone better take notice of what they say. Can you see now how yr attitude is very similar to that?

Furthermore this project has engengered serious devisiveness, devisiveness that was foreseen and could have been avoided.

I've asked you before, but you were too busy telling everyone they better listen to what the Muslim has to say to answer, so I'll ask again. There's serious divisiveness over gay marriage, just as there was when women got the vote. In order to appease those objecting to those projects, do you believe those projects should have been knocked on the head in order to head off divisiveness? If not, why does it only apply when it comes to Muslims?

[Violet_Crumble]

107. You strongly implied it in post 14

When I asked for reasons to oppose the construction of the centre that weren't bigoted, you replied with: 'They are Muslims and both are vocal opponents to Saudi funded Wahibism which is being foisted on Muslims through-out the world most notably by means of Saudi financed mosques world-wide.'

[snagglepuss]

75. Fatah has written extensively about radical Islam. He is hardly one to be

dismissed as a conspiracy theorist. And given that he was jailed twice in Pakistan for his leftist political views, I think he deserves respect for standing by his convictions in what was then a police state.

[riderinthestorm]

79. Nah, he's just a bigot.

:sarcasm:

sigh.

[Posteritatis]

80. Then perhaps he can pony up some evidence.

Instead I see complaining about "bleeding heart liberals," suggestions that mosques are as a whole dangerous, threatening things, and blowing off the idea of one more mosque because if there's thirty in a city of nine million people then thirty-one is at the very least too many.

Being jailed for political views isn't that big a challenge in Pakistan, and it certainly doesn't make one's views unassailable.

[snagglepuss]

86. He is a practicing Muslim. He doesn't say anywhere that mosques are

dangerous. His point about the extra mosque is that an extra mosque in NYC is not just unnecessary but that the estimated $100 million it will cost to build it would be better spent helping Muslims in Pakistan and Dafur.

[Posteritatis]

97. His points are also unproven

Did you even read the article? This guy's ridiculous.

I just see some guy claiming that a site with a prayer room specifically meant as overflow space from other mosques is somehow unnecessary because, gee, they have enough already. But he's a practicing Muslim, so he knows the demographics of New York City better than people in New York City would, right?

I see someone trying to smear the whole neighborhood the place is being built in because a few of the hijackers lived there beforehand, trying to imply that they have some responsibility for that or for Osama bin Laden's actions because his "spokesman" was there. This is a vile, hateful and worthless attitude, and that fact shouldn't have to be argued on a site like this, given we're supposed to do the opposite of defend such attitudes.

I see someone arrogantly claiming to speak for all Muslims, claiming that the site is specifically and deliberately being built to cause offense. Again, without a shred of evidence for his claim.

I also see someone pulling a cute rhetorical trick to claim that the site's being funded by unnamed Wahhabbist forces without actually claiming that, using wording that McCarthy would have recognized.

I see someone suggesting that "the hard core rhetoric that is used in pulpits" is the default state for mosques, perhaps even American ones (assuming, and this is a stretch, that he's not stupid enough to refer to all mosques everywhere as a monolith). You can't tell me that's not meant to suggest they're all like that, or that it isn't meant to suggest - along with his cute hints about the whole neighborhood being terrorist supporters running through the first half of the article - that any pulpits in the current site would be more of the same.

Attacking the funding would almost be a point, were it also not such a red herring.

And finally, I see someone continuing the worthless fucking lie that there is a mosque being built at Ground Zero. Spare me the new, handwaved, mobile-goalposts redefinitions of the site which seem to grow as necessary; I know how popular it is to define it as "within a mile of the site," but I reject that entirely, since there's no way that definition would ever exist were it not specifically to exclude this site.

Gee, I can't possibly see why the MCC wouldn't be taken seriously by other Canadian Muslim groups. But go ahead and take this guy's paranoid, conspiratorial attitude and claim that makes him an infallible authority, able to speak for one quarter of the world's population because he went to jail even though his arguments have little to no substance.

But this whole ridiculous, unnecesasry debacle distracting vast swathes of the world from important news wasn't supposed to be about substance anyway, was it?

[Violet_Crumble]

I just reread it and it's even uglier the second time round...

From the OP:

In a letter to Imam Faisal Rauf that will be delivered on Tuesday, August 10 by MCC’s board member Raheel Raza, the MCC says, “Many Muslims suspect that the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation, to thumb our noses at the 'infidel.' We believe the proposal has been made in bad faith and, in Islamic parlance, is creating 'fitna,' meaning 'mischief-making,' an act clearly forbidden in the Qur’an.”

“The Qur'an commands us Muslims to, 'be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book' -- i.e., Jews and Christians . Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers, is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of fitna,” the letter added.



It was illogical the first time round, but after finding out that members of Rauf's congregation were victims of 9/11, it takes on an even uglier and insensitive tone.


Here's a link to another DU thread where I read about members of the congregation being victims. It also contains a lot of information on what that neighbourhood is used for etc

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4398757&mesg_id=4401063

[snagglepuss]

123. I see a post constructed of strawmen and red herrings. nt

[riderinthestorm]

18. Canada is located pretty close to the US.

And often "comments" on issues since the borders are open and there is a great deal of affection and commonality between the two nations. I don't have any problem with anyone commenting on this issue - its obviously transcended New York specifically anyway beyond the fact that 9/11 was a fairly "international event". There are bones and remnants of probably every nationality at the site still....

As to the building, I've said from the start I wish there were no religious affiliation to the building. I believe all religions are divisive and that the Cordoba House's ideals were naive at best, with the cynical overlay of Saudi $$ financing the project. A community center with a "quiet room" instead of a 2000 person mosque would serve the US better instead of another religious center of any sort.

But the US Constitution is clear on this, they absolutely have the right to build it. No question. Should they build it is another matter for discussion.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. So's Mexico and Cuba.

The problem is that opposition to this building is coming from outside of New York City and not from the people who live there.

But the US Constitution is clear on this, they absolutely have the right to build it. No question. Should they build it is another matter for discussion.

Why shouldn't it be built? I've yet to see an argument for it not being built that isn't rooted in some level of intolerance and bigotry...

[riderinthestorm]

24. Uhm actually most New Yorkers DO oppose it's construction.

Check any number of polls. I won't do your research for you.

I've already laid out my position but frankly I'm not passionate about the issue. When it's built, it's going to be a lightening rod anyway just like most other religious structures built in conflict. I think that could be avoided but constitutionally, they'll get their permit and I'm sure the Saudis will see it done.

And Mexico and Cuba having an opinion, and articulating it is absolutely A-OK with me. They lost citizens there too. Like I said already, this site isn't just about New York anymore - it's transcended that.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Do they really? Any reasons for the opposition that aren't rooted in bigotry?

You haven't explained yet why the cultural centre shouldn't be built. I'd be very interested to see even one reason that isn't bigoted...


Like I said already, this site isn't just about New York anymore - it's transcended that.

I know. It's become a beacon for Islamophobes around the US and further afield.

[riderinthestorm]

30. Yes, they really do. Google is your friend.

You seem awfully interested in it yourself as an Aussie....

I've explained myself in post #18. No religious centers. Period. They are all divisive. I would have wanted a neutral community center with a quiet room instead of a 2000 person mosque.

But I don't live in the area. It's constitutionally guaranteed they can build there and I fully 110% support that even if I have other reservations that revolve around religion period.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. At least they're local bigots, I guess...

And seeing as how I'm not sitting around opposing the construction of anything in New York City, yr first comment makes absolutely no sense. I have an opinion about the blatant bigotry and intolerance I've seen coming from mainly RW Americans, but sadly also echoed by some DUers...

[riderinthestorm]

52. Yes, yes, I know.

The universal shout of "bigot" on this issue, without any kind of honest discussion when it comes to Muslim issues. American Muslims, International Muslims, New Yorkers, 9/11 families, DUers, good Dems etc. etc. - any number of people may articulate their position but if they offer even any hint of disagreement with black/white positions, they are "bigots".

My comment about your participation in the discussion is that international voices (like yours, like the OP's) are valid commentary pro or con. The 9/11 site is clearly international.

[Violet_Crumble]

61. I think it's very foolish to pretend that much if not all opposition is rooted in bigotry...

Surely you'd not be pretending that there's a groundswell of bigotry and intolerance behind the opposition? Or do you really think the rightwingers like Sarah Palin are operating from less sinister motives?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'honest discussion' of Muslim issues. Could you explain what you mean?

[riderinthestorm]

70. It's not ALL rooted in bigotry. You can say it all you like but that doesn't make it true.

Rightwingers like Sarah Palin are one thing but that's not who I'm talking about. And the OP about the MCC isn't about Sarah Palin types either. It's completely dishonest to lump people like the OP authors in with her and I find that kind of discussion intellectually devoid of merit, especially at DU. You're perilously close to being ignored when you stray into drawing those kinds of conclusions when I've actually enjoyed our previous conversations. This is beneath you.

I won't be drawn OT, so this is my last comment on it, but my initial referral was to other discussions you and I have had about issues such as the burqa/women's issues/feminism in France, Europe etc.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. Most of it is rooted in bigoted motives...

That's where the vast majority of opposition is coming from, and as I said quite a few times now, I've been waiting for people to come up with legitimate reasons to oppose the centre that don't involve any bigoted motives. Unfortunately they don't seem to be all that forthcoming...

[riderinthestorm]

82. Yes, I know. $$, background funding, "desecration" of an international disaster site

that hasn't been resolved yet by even the host country, religion and it's place in global tensions, remains that are still being discovered daily.... none of that is sufficient reason to give pause to this community center with a 2000 person mosque?

Black/white thinking. What is your motive in this? You've made a point of stating that you don't believe any other "country" has the right to comment here but as an Australian, you obviously think YOU do? Why do you care so passionately? You already know I carry both Irish and American passports so I feel I have a vested interest but you?

[Violet_Crumble]

85. Desecration of an international disaster site? WTF does that mean?

There's strip clubs just as close to the site, so I've got no idea what you mean when you say desecration...

What is your motive in this? You've made a point of stating that you don't believe any other "country" has the right to comment here but as an Australian, you obviously think YOU do? Why do you care so passionately?

Huh? Where did I say that? I didn't and I've already corrected you on that. I think it's pathetic that people who aren't even residents of NYC are opposed to something being built there. So where have I expressed opposition to anything being built in NYC? I haven't, so I don't know what yr talking about...

[riderinthestorm]

89. "Desercration" is not my word.

It's a quote from religious nutjobs. And frankly, I'd rather see strip joints than religious centers.

You've made a point that people from other countries have no right to comment on the controversy. You asked if Mexico or Cuba had a right to comment if Canada did. I was addressing that. I don't think it's "pathetic" if there are international voices expressing their opinions. Won't change a thing. US Constitutional LAW will prevail and the mosque will be built.

[Violet_Crumble]

95. I've never said that at all.

Please point me to the post where I said people from other countries have no right to comment, and where I asked a question about Mexico or Cuba. See, I didn't but I'd like to see what it is that yr misreading so badly to see if maybe I've communicated poorly...

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

106. So yr disagreeing that most of the opposition is rooted in bigotry?

I've been asking patiently for you or others who oppose the construction of the community centre to come up with reasons for the opposition that aren't motivated by bigotry and there hasn't been anything offered...

So because there's people who oppose the construction of the centre, it's the fault of the site owner and they should placate those people by not building it? Does this attitude also apply to other things that have been considered controversial, like gay marriage, equal rights for women, African Americans and Jews?

[snagglepuss]

40. Hello. The MCC is a Muslim organization. Fatah and Raza are Muslims.

How can you keep repeating the same line that criticism is based on bigotry? Fatha has written extensively on Islamism so he is not some mindless know nothing spouting off at the mouth. Likewise Raza has also written about Islamism, her new book is "Their Jihad...Not My Jihad."

[Violet_Crumble]

57. So what?

I'm still waiting for anyone to come up with reasons for opposing construction of the cultural centre that aren't bigoted reasons. Feel free to provide some...

[riderinthestorm]

62. In your opinion.

You can post one picture of a black guy in a KKK uniform over and over but that doesn't mean that there aren't significant Muslim voices objecting to the construction of this center at this place.

Your opinion is just that. You can state it over and over but that doesn't make it fact.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. I think you'll find it's the opinion of most DUers...

And I'm sure racists would have labelled that black guy in the KKK uniform a 'significant black voice'.

Where have you come up with the strange idea that I think my opinion is fact? I don't and have never said it is...

[riderinthestorm]

87. I know its the opinion of most DUers.

Obviously I'm an iconoclast. Are you trying to publicly shame a person into believing like you and the majority? This is General DISCUSSION.

I just happen to believe there are more sides to this than a single issue chant of "bigot!" You purport to believe that because you side with the majority that it is truth. I've never believed that. I believed in the ERA, I believed in abortion on demand before it was law. I believed in Sinn Fein before they became mainstream. I can tell you all about beliefs I've had over the years that never were popular at the time. I'm old. An old farmer. I have a lot of time doing chores to think and contemplate and form opinions outside of the intellectual elite, the mainstream, DU and any other organization. I don't care if it's unpopular.

[Violet_Crumble]

93. That's right. It's an opinion. I never said my opinion was fact...

Yet there you were accusing me of just that. And I've got no idea at all what yr going on about in that first line of yr post...


I just happen to believe there are more sides to this than a single issue chant of "bigot!"

You've been given ample opportunity to give some reasons for opposition to the construction that don't have bigoted motivations but you haven't offered them up. I can't think of any off the top of my head....

You purport to believe that because you side with the majority that it is truth.

I've never said anything of the sort, and that's because I don't think that at all. Just like I never said I thought my opinions were fact, something that you accused me of.

[riderinthestorm]

104. Nice. I've given my opinion, and you've taken the opportunity to label any oppo as 'bigoted"

I'm not blind. I understand exactly what you're doing. I've pointed out the post #'s where I've given my opinion but plenty of others have also offered up non-bigoted questions about the situation ($, funding, motivation etc.) but you want to continue to state that nobody's given any oppo to the project that don't have "bigoted motivations" all the while claiming that you don't state your opinions as "fact".

You also stated that most DUers agree with you and that's some sort of justification for your position.

The truth is in the thread. Good night.

[Violet_Crumble]

110. You have not given a legitimate reason for opposing the building of the centre...

Just like I never said any of the things you've been accusing me of, none of which you've bothered apologising for or retracting. In fact, yr still continuing to falsely claim I think my opinions are facts.

You appear to see a lot of things that just don't exist. For example, where are all these 'plenty' of legitimate reasons for opposing the building that aren't motivated by bigotry? Questioning the funding is bigoted if that same questioning isn't done about every other proposed construction work in New York City. Do you need me to explain to you why that is?



You also stated that most DUers agree with you and that's some sort of justification for your position.

I never said that justifies my position. Please show me the post where you think I did. I'm sick of the constant false accusations you fling at me and am considering putting you on ignore if it continues past this point...

[snagglepuss]

115. The mosque if funding comes thru will most likely be built but

it will be Pyrrhic victory. The mosque will certainly not achieve its stated purpose.

[Violet_Crumble]

117. Maybe not achieving a stated purpose is a legitimate reason for opposing construction?

How does that work? Think carefully about this before you answer. Is yr personal opinion on what the future may be apply to all building projects or just this one? Also, is a personal hunch a legitimate reason to hold back the right that all Americans have to freedom of religion?

[Chulanowa]

60. The line you quoted reminds me of something

I know this guy - and i'll bet most people know someone like him. He's conservative, but doesn't consider himself "far right" or anythging. He claims to be for equal rights for GLBT people. His argument is sensible; what people do with htemselves isn't his concern.

He's just stridently, flamingly opposed to things like GLBT organizations, pride events, public marriages, people coming out of the closet publically, and anything else that would illuminate the fact that there are GLBT people living in the same area that he is.

simply put, he doesn't question that GLBT people have equal rights. He'd just very much prefer that they never exercised them.

[Violet_Crumble]

68. Yeah, it is very reminiscent of that sort of thing n/t

[Rosa Luxemburg]

84. and Bermuda

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Oh, well then I guess the opposition isn't bigoted after all.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. LOL! n/t

[MadBadger]

17. What Mosque at Ground Zero?

[marmar]

19. Again, more un-truths.....It's a community center, and it's not AT Ground Zero

This is getting tiresome.

[aquart]

46. Keep telling yourself.

[snagglepuss]

50. It is close enough to ground zero to ahve sustained structural damage which is

why it was sold at a discount. BTW did you read the article? The authors are Muslims. The MCC is a Muslim organization. Fatah isn't an intellectual lightweight when it comes to radical Islam. If he and the MCC have concerns about this project, I think people should take note.

[marmar]

54. What do Muslims in America say about it?

[Chulanowa]

65. Clarence Thomas and Bill Cosby are both black

Log Cabin Republicans are gay.
Sarah Palin has two X chromosomes.

However the evidence had mounted that none of these people are credible representative voices of their respective "groups." In fact, all of them are actively harmful to the progress of right and equality for blacks, GLBT people, and women, respectively for each.

They can be as Muslim as they like, but they're still wrong.

[marmar]

67. Please don't try to interject logic and reason....heads might explode in this OP.

nt

[snagglepuss]

103. You have never read anything by Tarek Fatah but yet

you can come to the conclusion that because Palin has 2 x chromosomes and LCR are gay, Fatah and the Muslim Canadian Congress are wrong (whatever that means). Fatah's and Raza's religion was mentioned because V Crumble maintains, without any evidence to support her assertions, that they are bigots. It is incredibly insulting to accuse Muslims of being bigoted towards their Muslims brothers and sisters. Totally irrationality.

[Violet_Crumble]

114. I did NOT say that. What I said was that they appeal to Islamophobes...

If yr going to reference something I said, please at least attempt to repeat it correctly...

Also, of course there's Muslims who are bigots towards other Muslims, just like there's Jews who are bigoted towards other Jews. Why would pointing out that insult you?

[Chulanowa]

118. I hope my point didn't mess up your hair when it wooshed over your head

Let's try this again.

Being part of "the group" does not necessarily mean that your opinion with regards to that group is actually factual and valid. Simply being Muslim does not give anyone a valid opinion on this subject, any more than my being an Indian gives me a valid opinion on a casino being built in Minnesota or wherever.

Second, I was not accusing these fellows of bigotry, simply of being wrong. However, now that I think of it, I can see the argument for them being underhanded bigots of the sort exemplified by the LCR or Bill Cosby; Attacking their fellows in order to win approval from the dominant group. Not out of any hate for their own fellows, just a sad belief that pandering to the bigotry of another will improve one's own position.

[emilyg]

111. I take notice. Where is the

funding coming from?

[snagglepuss]

124. Funding details have not been made public and that has caused concern nt

[Violet_Crumble]

128. I'm very curious to know what other nearby buildings you've got funding details for...

Or is yr fascination with this one only because it's Islamic?

[kestrel91316]

38. They are Canadians who apparently don't understand our constitutional

guarantee of the free exercise of religion (and those pesky private property rights, either).

[aquart]

41. But, being Canadians, they do understand decency and good taste.

Something Americans can't conceive since it ain't in the constitution.

[Posteritatis]

42. Have you seen our government? (nt)

[Political Tiger]

49. So you consider allowing Muslim's to practice their religion

where they wish to to be indecent and in bad taste? Does that go just for Muslims or other religions too?

[snagglepuss]

64. Both are highly regarded and niether intellectual lightweights. Fatah has

written a number of books as well as numeraous articles about radical Islam. His unstinting oppostion to Sharia Law in Ontario lead to serious death threats. Niether he nor Raza nor the MCC are ignorant of American law. The point is that they are addresing this issue as Muslims and as such they are not convinced that there isn't a hidden agenda at play given that funding has not been made public. Fatah has stated that his life's work is to insure that Islamist's who destroyed his birthplace (Pakistan)do not destroy where he will die. If Fatah and the MCC have concerns about this mosque, people ought to take note.


Just because the mosque will most likely be built doesn't mean that people have to buy into the spin.


http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=169477037507

[Posteritatis]

72. "not convinced that there isn't a hidden agenda" is a pretty weak accusation. (nt)

[snagglepuss]

127. He is not making an accusation. This is not rocket science, He and the

MCC think that details about funding should be made public. Asking for infomation is not making an accusation.

[Political Tiger]

53. The Muslim Canadian Congress

The Muslim Canadian Congress was organized to provide a voice to Muslims who support a " progressive, liberal, pluralistic, democratic, and secular society where everyone has the freedom of religion." The organization claimed to have 300 dues-paying members prior to its 2006 split.

<.....>

The Congress suffered a serious split in the summer of 2006 when several of its members and leaders left to form the Canadian Muslim Union. According to reports, the split occurred over questions of how the group engages with the broader Muslim community. The basic issue was that the MCC was no longer a credible voice within the Canadian Muslim community.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Canadian_Congress

[marmar]

55. Thank you......Quad erat demonstrandum.

[Violet_Crumble]

71. Thanks for posting that info n/t

[Posteritatis]

101. Nice; I think I misplaced my astonishment. (nt)

[snagglepuss]

119. What a ludicrous post. It is not surprising if you read their positions. But

as progressives yourself, as you all undoubtbly are since you're DU memebrs, you must be aware that progressives are always in a minority within a conservative and traditionally minded community.

I think their numbers speak to their authenticity as progressives, they are fighting to bring Islam into this century and not let Islamists take it back into the middle ages. They are an outspoken group of Muslims who have taken unpopular stances within the Muslim community. They fought against Sharia Law in Ontario, they want the burka and niquab banned, they support gay marriage, and are vocal opponents of radical Islam, . How very odd that DU members are smirching at fellow progressives.

[blogslut]

120. You know what?

Forget it. What's the point?

[Political Tiger]

122. They're troublemakers! They are sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.

Besides that, it's hard to believe a "progressive" group would make the blanket claim "We Muslims know the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation." How do they know that? Are they mind readers?

These "progressives" state "Most Americans are wary of mosques due to the hard core rhetoric that is used in pulpits. And rightly so

They go on, saying "As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media, who are blind to the Islamist agenda in North America.

You still wanna claim they are "progressives?

They sound more like Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin than us "teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals!"

They obviously have as much use for their own (proclaimed) religion as does Newt and Sarah!

These idiots are spreading hate for their own religion, demonizing people of the Muslim faith and using scare tactics, just like the right does, to frighten people.

Again, you still wanna claim they are "progressives?

[snagglepuss]

125. You seem to be saying that Muslims who are concerned about radical Islam

are not progressive. You are the one on the roll. He is a Muslim and isn't demonizing anyone. Both Fatah and Raza witnessed what Islamists did to Pakistan and Fatah has said that Islamists may have destroyed the country where he was born but he won't let destroy the country where he will die. He isn't looking for fights but he is committed to exposing Wahibism for what it is. He doesn't accuse the backers of being Islamists but he and the MCC thinks there are legimate questions about funding not to mention the reason for spending $100 million on a mosque when millions of Muslims in Pakistan and Dafur face death.

What you also seem upset about is that the MCC is questioning the reason for doing something which has created such divisiveness. One need only read DU to see the divisiveness. How does this divisiveness square with the purported goals of this project?

[marmar]

58. 3 recs for this POSt.....unreal.

nt

[steve2470]

59. The community center will be two blocks away from Ground Zero...

You probably won't even be able to SEE it unless you are specifically looking for it. I've been to Ground Zero and have stayed at a hotel near it. Lots of tall buildings to obstruct visibility.

I don't see the problem. It's not like it is right across the freaking street from it. Even if it was, Islam did not cause 9/11. It was a violent political statement by a very extreme group of Saudis who were Islamic.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

83. where did they spring from?

[RetroLounge]

98. Their mothers.

:eyes:

RL

[snagglepuss]

121. It is a sad comment that such a progressive Muslim organization is so

unknown. In Canada Tarek Fatah is extremely well known as he is a journalist and co-hosts a talk radio program with a conservative Catholic (a strange fellow who was born Jewish but converted.) You guys have Rush Limpballs and we have a progressive Pakistani Muslim author, how cool is that? A godsend really because Canadians are exposed to a outspoken Muslim who doesn't fit any of the stereotypes, presenting an image of Muslims that I have certainly have never seen on US television.

[Violet_Crumble]

126. There's things in that OP that sound anything but progressive...

'As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media...'

Yeah, coz calling people 'teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals' is almost as progressive as haranguing an Imam who lost members of his congregation on 9/11 and informing him: 'Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers, is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of fitna' is the act of an insensitive and ugly jerk. And what sort of delusional moron is he to claim to speak on behalf of 'many Muslims'? I can see why he appeals so strongly to Islamophobic types who try to show their *snicker* vast knowledge of all things Muslim by inserting one Islamic sounding word per paragraph into what they say :)

btw, I find it interesting that you and the writers of the OP seem to really like the word 'fitna', which is something shared by Geert Wilders, a person who you may not think is an Islamophobic bigot, but I certainly do. He named his anti-Muslim film 'fitna'...

[Rosa Luxemburg]

137. interesting

[RetroLounge]

99. unrec'ing the stupidity

RL

[RetroLounge]

100. unrec'ing the stupidity

RL

[Douglas Carpenter]

130. Ground Zero Mosque' Imam Was A Bush-Era Partner For Mideast Peace

'

Ground Zero Mosque' Imam Was A Bush-Era Partner For Mideast Peace

Outside of how getting constantly called a radical by American politicians busy flacking the proposed "Ground Zero mosque" for political purposes might affect Rauf's view of what it's like to be a Muslim in America, there's one other big problem with King's and Ros-Lehtinen's accusation: Rauf already represented America in this way, under the Bush Administration.

State Department spokesman P. J. Crowley responded to the accusations Tuesday:

"His work on tolerance and religious diversity is well-known and he brings a moderate perspective to foreign audiences on what it's like to be a practicing Muslim in the United States," State Department spokesman P. J. Crowley said Tuesday. He added that the department's public-diplomacy offices "have a long-term relationship with" Rauf - including during the past Bush administration, when the religious leader undertook a similar speaking tour.

If one were to hearken back to the halcyon days of the Bush Administration, one would remember that, when Bush adviser Karen Hughes was appointed Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy, the Bush Administration saw improving America's standing among Muslims abroad as a part of its national security strategy. And, as such, Hughes set up listening tours, attended meetings and worked with interfaith groups that -- shocking, by today's Republican standards -- included actual Muslims.

One of those people was Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf.

Contemporary press accounts indicate that Rauf and Hughes were part of the February 2006 U.S.-Islamic World Forum in Doha, Qatar. He was part of a delegation that met with her in March 2006 and held a joint press conference. A letter to then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in November 2007 indicates that contacts with Hughes and Under Secretary for Political Affairs Nicholas Burns had continued apace.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/08/ground_zero_mosque_imam_bush_partner_for_peace.php

Oz Sultan, the programming director for the center, said the complex was based on Jewish community centers and Y.M.C.A.'s in Manhattan. It is to have a board composed of Muslim, Christian and Jewish leaders and is intended to create a national model of moderate Islam.

“We are looking to build bridges between faiths,” Mr. Sultan said in an interview.

City officials, particularly Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, have forcefully defended the project on the grounds of religious freedom, saying that government has no place dictating where a house of worship is located. The local community board has given overwhelming backing to the project, and the city's landmarks commission is expected to do the same on Tuesday.

“What is great about America, and particularly New York, is we welcome everybody, and if we are so afraid of something like this, what does that say about us?” Mr. Bloomberg asked recently.




Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/07/31/the-defamation-league/#ixzz0wehCkRcM

"Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11 and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values – and play into our enemies' hands – if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists – and we should not stand for that." Mayor Michael Bloomberg

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748703545604575407673221908474.html

,

[Violet_Crumble]

131. 40 Religious Leaders Denounce Sarah Palin and Fox’s Hate Speech

Forty different Catholic, evangelical, mainline Protestant, Jewish and Muslim leaders and scholars came together to release a statement condemning the hate language of Fox News, Sarah Palin, and Newt Gingrich as it relates to the so called Ground Zero mosque, “Fear-mongering and hateful rhetoric only undermine treasured values at the heart of diverse faith traditions and our nation’s highest ideals.”

The statement released by Faith In The Public Life condemned the religious bigotry of Gingrich, Palin, and Fox News, “As Catholic, evangelical, mainline Protestant, Jewish and Muslim leaders and scholars committed to religious freedom and inter-religious cooperation, we are deeply troubled by the xenophobia and religious bigotry that has characterized some of the opposition to a proposed Islamic center and mosque near where the World Trade Center towers once stood.”

It continued, “Newt Gingrich, the former Speaker of the House, is the most recent prominent opponent to cast this debate in a way that demonizes all Muslims and exploits fear to divide Americans.”It is a sign of their contempt for Americans and their confidence in our historic ignorance that they would deliberately insult us this way,” Gingrich said in a statement. Sarah Palin called plans for the center a “provocation.” Fox News has aired a steady stream of irresponsible commentary and biased coverage that reduces what should be a civil debate into starkly combative terms.”

Rev. Peg Chemberlin, President of the National Council of Churches said, “We are deeply saddened by those who denigrate a religion which in so many ways is a religion of compassion and peace by associating all Muslims with violent extremism. That’s like equating all Christians to Timothy McVeigh’s actions. This center will reflect not only the best of Islam, but the enduring hope that Christians, Jews and Muslims can together find common ground in addressing the most urgent challenges of our time.”

Sister Simone Campbell, Executive Director of NETWORK, A National Catholic Social Justice Lobby said, “It’s simply wrong for Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin to malign all Muslims by comparing this cultural center and mosque with a radical ideology that led to the horrific attacks of 9-11. We fail to honor those killed by terrorists when we betray the bedrock principle of religious freedom that has guided our democracy for centuries.”

The statement concluded by calling for an end to the fear mongering and hate filled rhetoric, “Mr. Gingrich, Ms. Palin and other prominent voices privileged to have the ear of the media would make a more lasting contribution to our nation if they stopped issuing inflammatory statements and instead helped inspire a civil dialogue between Christians, Jews and Muslims committed to a future guided by the principles of compassion, justice and peace. Fear-mongering and hateful rhetoric only undermine treasured values at the heart of diverse faith traditions and our nation’s highest ideals.”

I wish more people of all faiths would stand up and denounce the divisive hate filled tactics employed on a daily basis by Gingrich, Palin, and Fox News. Gingrich and Palin are trying to create a wave of hate to ride to the presidency, and Fox News has found that peddling paranoia and hate is very, very profitable. Playing upon religious tensions is bad enough, but to intentionally create disunity for political gain, with no regard for the consequences to our nation is almost criminal.

The politics of division and hate are the tactics that political movements always resort to when they are out of ideas and they possess no other means to motivate and inspire their supporters. Palin and Gingrich’s willingness to take us down this path is a reflective of their own personal ambitions combined with a complete lack of interest in actually solving our nation’s problems. A plea to our lesser emotions is easy, and sometimes effective, but by doing so, both Palin and Gingrich are demonstrating why neither one of them will ever be capable of inspiring the birth of a better America.

http://www.politicususa.com/en/palin-hate-speech

[Warren Stupidity]

134. Congress shall make no law

respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

And by the 14th:

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Is there some part of this that is not clear?

[MattBaggins]

135. Translation: Someone else is getting attention; look at us. Oh won't someone please look at us.