My thoughts on the Ground Zero mosque controversy

[Rocknrule]

Having had relatives who were placed in internment camps during WWII for being Japanese, I can very clearly see the destructive and bigoted nature of alot of the people who oppose the Ground Zero mosque. One person compared it to a rapist moving in next door to his victim. The mentality here is that every Muslim on the planet somehow shares blame for 9/11, just like in 1941 when people felt that all Japanese-Americans were somehow culpable for Pearl Harbor and/or couldn't be trusted. Based on my own family history, I know where this way of thinking leads, and I don't like it.

[tsuki]

1. My take:

Follow the money. Teh Gays don't bring in the donations that they once did. Time to move to the next group to hate, and get that cash flowing.

[Douglas Carpenter]

19. actually, I think there is something to that

Anti-gay hysteria doesn't fly like it once did. So now there is another group to hate and raise money and stir up campaign hysteria

[OneMoreDemocrat]

36. Or, a group of 19 Muslims flew planes into buildings...

and killed 3,000 people two blocks away from the proposed site.

That COULD have something to do with it. Just sayin'.

[Douglas Carpenter]

51. did all of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims do this or America's 7 milllion muslims do this?

and why this sudden hysteria now, 9 years later?

"Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11 and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values – and play into our enemies' hands – if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists – and we should not stand for that. " Mayor Michael Bloomberg

There are always justifications for racism and bigotry. Anti-black racist always site crime statistics, Anti-gay bigots always talk about the AIDS, Anti-Semites have vast volumes of "research" to argue their point - in fact much of what is circulating as anti-Muslim propaganda looks eerily familiar to the anti-Semitic propaganda of 1930's Europe. Even those who would advocate hostility against ordinary Americans, have reasons to justify their feeling by pointing to the deaths of millions caused by U.S. military actions around the world.

Obviously 9/11 didn't help matters. But what is going on now 9 years later, is a nationwide campaign of anti-Muslim hysteria being whooped up by right-wing politicians, the crazy wing of fundamentalist Christianity and the likes of Newsmax and Fox News. There is a grave danger of this hysteria becoming - if it has not already - completely mainstream discourse in American society.

This hysteria has dangerous ramifications, not only for the American-Muslim community but for the entirety of society and the direction it is going. The 20th Century has surely shown that hate campaigns are not controllable and can and do lead society down extremely self-destructive paths.

This hysteria has even more dangerous ramifications for American foreign policy.

There are right-wing religious crazies in America who now pretty much dominate the Republican Party and there are the neoconservatives who are bent on promoting a permanent American war in the Middle East and I believe they must be stopped or America and the whole world will experience a catastrophe beyond imagination. The religious crazies believe they must help facilitate the battle of Armageddon in order to usher in the second coming of Christ. This is not a small marginal group of kooks. This is a group who are to a large degree now calling the shots in the Republican Party while their allies the neoconservatives work out the details.


Diffusing this hysteria and not allowing this hysteria to become mainstream discourse is one of the most important stands any public figure can take - The consequences of this hysteria growing and becoming even more mainstream are just too dire.

[pinboy3niner]

55. Wrong. 19 Al Qaeda fighters did that.

People who subscribe to their own terrorist ideology, which is not the same at all as Islamic theology.

Why would you want to conflate the two? That seems like a severely contorted and biased way of looking at it--something we'd expect of freepers and other associated wingnuts.

Just sayin'...

[applegrove]

58. Yup. There always has to be an enemy for the base of the GOP to flog. They've

been after blacks for the last few weeks and now that that has quieted down, because there was no issue behind most of the black attacks, they have something in the mosque they can sink their teeth into. And the base is in the habit, in this perpetual campaign mode, to flogging someone, out of fear, every week. Obama should take this head on.

[xchrom]

2. Recommend - this 'enshrining' a public pain

And controlling it's meaning.

The anti-community-center people should not win this.

[Karenina]

44. The clear-sighted could use a nomenclature adjustment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8952319

[dkf]

3. Actually it's like putting a Buddhist temple in the arizona memorial.

That building was in the 9/11 attack after all. It was up for sale because the engine or fuselage crashed into the building destroying the roof and going through the two top floors. No one was killed because the store hadn't opened yet and the workers were in the basement. After the roof and top two floors were damaged the building never got opened again.

Those people in the basement are survivors of 9/11. If they had been walking the floors, they could have been killed.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. So are you in favor of prohibiting the free exercise of religion?

[dkf]

15. No it's legal just very insensitive. Like using the n word.

[Johonny]

21. You do know Muslim Americans died on 9/11

isn't insensitive to them to say because one small group of humans claims to share your religion, we can't let you worship your religion near the site your relatives died on the 9/11 attacks. How insensitive is it to say only the Christian Americans have the right to that ground.

What next we remove of the crosses from confederate graves because we feel they behaved in an unChristian like manner during the civil war?

Should we remove all Christian churches from Atlanta Georgia because the Olympic bomber turned out to be a radical Christian?

Or is it you that are being insensitive? I think I know that answer.

[dkf]

22. It's not near the site. It's part of the site.

And sensitivity goes both ways. You give some to get some. If you expect it you better show it. If you don't show it don't expect any back.

[Raineyb]

23. It's two blocks away from the site. A tenth of a mile away. And the people who are putting up the

community center are part of the neighborhood. The assholes complaining about it are not. The assholes can piss off and go back home.

[dkf]

25. Parts of the plane went through the roof and the top two floors of the building.

How is that two blocks away?

[pinboy3niner]

29. Ground Zero is the WTC site--not two blocks away

In an effort to expand the 'hallowed ground' definition to include the Cordoba House site, some have even gone so far as to argue that the dust from 9/11--which included the ashes of the victims--drifted farther than two blocks, and THAT makes the Cordoba House site hallowed ground. Despite these attempts, there is only one accepted definition of Ground Zero:

In and around New York City, "Ground Zero" is generally understood to mean the site of the World Trade Center, which was destroyed in the September 11, 2001 attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_zero#World_Trade_Center

[dkf]

56. We let's call it the 9/11 attack site mosque then.

Frankly revering just the WTC victims overlooks all the people that died on the planes which is reprehensible. I was in a pretty much don't care mode until I found out a substantial part of a 9/11 plane went through the roof. That did resonate with me even though everyone else here doesn't seem to care about the passengers that died too.

[Matariki]

32. What you are saying is completely IRRELEVANT.

The heart of your argument is that all Muslims are somehow responsible for 9/11 and Mosques are somehow a symbol of terrorism. Assertions like that don't belong here. It's shameful.

[Raineyb]

33. Be that is it may ground zero is the site of the World Trade Center. The building

in question is 2 blocks away. Your attempt to expand what "Ground Zero" is is noted but it doesn't change geography which to reiterate puts the building in question 2 blocks away.

[Warren Stupidity]

39. So then the building next door would be just fine?

Seriously? That is all you have?

[LostinVA]

41. It is two CITY blocks away -- that is a fact

[BrklynLiberal]

48. It IS two blocks away..and parts of the planes landed in several places in the neighborhood

It was the landing gear, not the fuselage that landed near 45 Park Place.

[Karenina]

50. Deares BL, It now seems sufficient

That the DUST carried the ashes of victims. SACRED DEBRIS may have landed there! Since the percentage of MOOSLEM ash is NOT an issue the 3000 AMERICANS :eyes: whose ashes WERE in the dust...

I can't stand it anymore.

IIRC, Park Place is a high value target in Monopoly. :rofl:

[BrklynLiberal]

60. Actually, some of that sacred dust blew across the rivers, and all over NYC and parts of NJ,

including my neighborhood.
OMIGAWD! Some people may even have inhaled it!!!

I agree. My patience for this kind of inanity has grown thin.

[Hissyspit]

52. So what?

The best thing we can do to represent America and what America means is to allow the building of a muslim community center there.

[Douglas Carpenter]

54. and dust and debris spread all the way up to Greenwich Village - Where is the boarder where

tolerance, and respect for diversity and human rights begins and American-Muslims are fully American again? - Where?

"Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11 and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values – and play into our enemies' hands – if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists – and we should not stand for that. " Mayor Michael Bloomberg

[Forkboy]

49. You've argued repeatedly in favor of the Arizona immigration law...

And suddenly you're worried about being sensitive? Uh huh.

[pinboy3niner]

53. Nice job, Forkboy--you've nailed it!

I admire your ability to live within the rules and still call it out--well done!

[lynne]

27. This mess is more about zoning than religion -

- You can't build a church in the middle of Gettysburg Battlefield or in a residential neighborhood. One is a national park and the other is zoned for homes only. That doesn't infringe on free exercise of religion as it doesn't stop anyone from practicing their religion. It just restricts where they can build a church, mosque, synagogue, and/or temple.

Had NYC or the U. S. government put aside or purchased whatever portion of Ground Zero they felt was "Hallowed Ground" for public use as a park or memorial, then this situation would not be occurring. But they didn't do that and there is no option but to follow the current zoning laws for that area.

Zoning and lack of foresight is the true cause of this mess. Freedom of Religion has nothing to do with it as there are tons of places in the US where you can't build a church due to zoning laws yet the law does not prohibit anyone from worshiping whatever religion they desire.

[Warren Stupidity]

38. It is not about zoning it is about hating muslims.

There is no way that a restriction on places of worship would be zoned into the commercial area around the WTC site.

p.s. the islamic center is not in the middle of anything other than a rather sleazy business district.

[LostinVA]

42. Honest question: should the gov't have bought the porn shops and bars, too?

[Bigmack]

13. First of all.. Japan is mostly Shinto...

or more precisely, a conglomeration of the two. (Actually, most Japanese don't have a religion.)

Pearl Harbor has several Shinto shrines.

This whole controversy is just "shiny objects" held up in front of the gullible to keep them from thinking.

[dkf]

20. Goodness I've never met any person who says their religion is Shinto

And we have tons of Japanese here. I've been to a lot of funerals for people of Japanese ancestry throughout the years and not a one of them was Shinto. They were all either Buddhist or Christian.

[Bigmack]

28. I said...

(Actually, most Japanese don't have a religion.)

And I also said that the religion of those that have a religion is a combination of the two. Shinbutsu shūgō

[LostinVA]

43. That's because funerals are always Buddhist

And yes, Japanese spiritual life is am amalgam of Buddhism and Shinto.

[pinboy3niner]

34. "IN" the Arizona Memorial??? Really???

What utter nonsense! It's hard to understand the motivations that would make someone go to such an extent to manufacture such a ridiculous argument. That kind of nonsense might be common at FR, but at DU??? You really thought that would fly here???

[LostinVA]

40. What would be wrong with having a Buddhist temple near the Arizona?

Firstly, the odds are very good that there already IS a Buddhist close to the Arizona; secondly considering the way the Arizona Memorial is one the water, it would eb almost impossible to have a temple there, but let's make believe there was one on the waterfront near the Arizona -- so what? Thirdly, considering that Buddhism, specifically the Zen Buddhism practiced by Japanese, is a very moral ethical path (and not a religion), I think that would be a good idea. Very meditative.

Mnay Americans died on 9/11. Many Japanese Americans died in WWII. Shameful.

Disclaimer: I'm a Zen Buddhist.

[mrcheerful]

4. Though folks from Germany weren't put into camps they too were faced with the same type of

distrust that the Japanese were victims of. My dad's side of the family were first generation Americans, my grand father came to the US when he was 8 years old. It was strange because I didn't know my dad could not only speak German, he also could read and write in German. I found out at dads funeral that dad and his brothers were tormented in school because their non German class mates called them Nazi's and they got into fights almost daily because class mates would gang up on them to beat up the Nazi's.

Come to find out the family stopped speaking and using German, they also started moving around a lot during the war years as to hide their German heritage. By the time I was born no one in the family used German except at family reunions and they would switch to english when the younger generation came close enough to hear them talking.

[fogonthelake]

18. I saw a Memorial to the US German interment camp a while back, so I

looked it up just now. Some were put into camps.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment

German American internment
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

German American Internment refers to the detention of people of German ancestry in the United States during World War I and World War II.
Contents


* 1 World War I
* 2 World War II
* 3 Later legislation
* 4 See also
* 5 Notes
* 6 Sources
* 7 External links

World War I

President Woodrow Wilson issued two sets of regulations in April 6, 1917, and November 16, 1917, imposing restrictions on German-born male residents of the United States over the age of 14. Some 250,000 people in that category were required to register at their local post office, to carry their registration card at all times, and to report any change of address or employment. The same regulations and registration requirements were imposed on females on April 18, 1918.<1> Some 6,300 such aliens were arrested. Thousands were interrogated and investigated. A total of 2,048 were incarcerated for the remainder of the war in designated two camps, Fort Douglas, Utah, for those west of the Mississippi and Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia, for those east of the Mississippi.<2>

The cases of these aliens, whether being considered for internment or under internment, were managed by the Enemy Alien Registration Section of the Department of Justice, headed beginning in December 1917 by J. Edgar Hoover, then not yet 23 years old.<3>

Among the notable internees were 29 players from the Boston Symphony Orchestra<4> Their music director, Karl Muck, spent more than a year at Fort Oglethorpe, as did the music director of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, Ernst Kunwald.<5>

[mrcheerful]

24. Ok, so there was another reason why my grand parents and their families hid out the way they

did in WW2. I always heard about the Japanese camps, this is the first time I heard that Germans were also rounded up and put into camps.

[fogonthelake]

26. I was surprised also when I saw that memorial (years ago). It

stuck a nerve. My grandpa was born in Germany but I never heard any stories growing up about this.

[Mariana]

30. My grandmother told me a very similar story to your dad's.

Except in her case the harassment happened during the Great War. By the time the Second World War happened, no one would ever guess the family had been German. Their name had been anglicized, they spoke English all the time, and the only printed material they had in their houses that was in German was one Bible, hidden away in my grandmother's attic.

[Mariana]

31. Sorry, dupe.

[cilla4progress]

6. What I have appreciated

in this discussion of the Mosque / Bill of Rights AND gay marriage, are the public comments FINALLY coming out (even Olson, Republican attorney for LBGT in California) -- the public debate -- of the fact that: mob rule is not always preemininent! There seems to be a misunderstanding of democracy in this country that it's about majority rule; the will of the majority should always prevail. Of course, we can't expect the numnuts to understand the nuance of balance of powers, but at least we should be able to expect they would understand basic concepts of fairness...shouldn't we...?

[still_one]

7. It is the very foundation of our constitution, and the Democrats BETTER fight for this

principle.

Too many people died for this country so others could have their bill of rights, and Constitution

[mmonk]

8. Me either. But as long as they have the microphone,

it will be with us.

[rucky]

9. It's not at "ground zero" - it's 2 blocks away.

[Skidmore]

10. Christian nationalists are at it again.

It IS uncannily similar to the same type of thinking that put Hitler in power. The use of religion as a vehicle for patriotism and the demonization of groups you want to silence. THe rise of propagandists, like Beck etc., to become pervayers of the lies and hatred. Why are we being timid? Why let them shout you down and make you cower with fear at being labeled as someone who stands up for justice?

[madmax]

12. You nailed it. nt

[applegrove]

59. Yup. People like Beck and Limbaugh are bullies. They should be stood up to by the leadership

in the USA. That means Obama.

[madmax]

11. Live and let live.

There are potential terrorists in any group, be they religious, political, whatever. Do we need to prevent the gathering of German/Americans next to a Synagogue and on and on. It's all just stupid Americun craziness already.

[pinboy3niner]

35. This isn't "Minority Report"

Some of the arguments against the Cordoba Center assert that it's "likely" to be a center for radicalization in the future. And here I thought Precrime was only a fictional police unit in a movie based on a futuristic sci-fi story cooked up in a writer's imagination.

Despite the attempts to demonize Imam Rauf and his wife, they have been progressive activists for interfaith understanding, tolerance and peace.

As far as I know, we still indict, try and convict based on actual crimes--not on imagined future possibilities. That such baseless accusations are being made against an institution that hasn't even had a groundbreaking yet, much less begun construction, is ludicrous. Moreso at a time when RW Christian nativist, white power, and anti-government militias are growing apace.

[madmax]

57. Did you really mean to post this to me? nt

:shrug:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

14. I "unfriended" some people from my Facebook account today....

they were old friends from high school, and it was fun catching up with them. But they've started posting some pretty vile shit.

I put in my status that if bigotry based on religion is OK with you, then you're no friend of mine.

Not to put too fine a point on this -- TIMOTHY MCVEIGH WAS CATHOLIC.

[snagglepuss]

16. Painting anyone with a broad brush is wrong. It is irrational to paint all

those who either oppose the mosque or have questions about it as bigots. When anyone gets into that territory,it's inevitable that their position, like yours, can only be supported by strawmen.

[Douglas Carpenter]

17. thank you for stand against hatred and bigotry - kick and recommended!!

Not every one has your experience to draw from. But all it takes it a bit of common human empathy to see what is going on.

[keep_it_real]

37. "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise,

we don't believe in it at all."
-- Noam Chomsky

[steve2470]

45. Something for the Cordoba House opponents to think about...

If the old World Trade Center site and its surrounding area (however far that is) were truly regarded as a national, secular hallowed ground (akin to Gettysburg), why didn't GWB and Mayor Bloomberg and Governor Paterson, etc. try to buy up all that land and make it a national historic site ?

Yes, it would have been hugely expensive to do so (and perhaps impossible for some parcels), but.... you get my point. Instead, 99% of that land is dedicated to the gods of commerce.

The Cordoba House belongs anywhere ! Islam did not cause 9/11. Therefore, all opposition to it is based on false premises and blatant religious discrimination.

[BrklynLiberal]

47. Absolutely right!!!

Not one government official has made a move to treat that area like anything but a potential business area.

I cannot believe that it has been almost 10 years, and every time I pass it, all I still see is a gaping hole in the ground!!!

[BrklynLiberal]

46. Scapegoating..pure and simple. Hate mongers stirring the shit for their own personal

benefit.

Scapegoating refers to the deliberate policy of blaming an individual or group when in reality there is no one person or group responsible for the problem. It means blaming another group or individual for things they did not really do. Those whom we scapegoat become objects of our aggression in word and deed. Prejudicial attitudes and discriminatory acts lead to scapegoating. Members of the disliked groups might be denied employment, housing, political rights or social privileges. Scapegoating can lead to verbal and physical violence, including death.

The Nazis in Germany were excellent at this...and sadly, it has not ended with the end of the Third Reich.


http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/scapegoating-04.html

Scapegoating has real consequences on both a societal and individual level, especially in terms of dominance and oppression.

Early explanations of the Nazi genocide suggested that prejudice, scapegoating, participation in right wing movements, and willingness to commit brutality were directly linked to a particular authoritarian personality structure.~39 This concept has been widely refuted. This is not to suggest that there are not authoritarian personalities, but to recognize that authoritarian personalities, like prejudice and scapegoating, can appear across the political spectrum.~40 Furthermore, persons who test as having relatively non-authoritarian personalities can sometimes be manipulated into acts of brutality by authority figures.

The Milgram psychology studies involved subjects told by an authority figure that they were administering painful electric shocks to a third person. However, Milgram's original conclusions--that what he was observing was primarily the force of obedience--have been challenged by those who argue that other factors were involved. That average persons are capable of great brutality is not in question. The circumstances of such behavior, however, are complex, and involve the personality type, the trust given to the authority figure, peer approval, denial, the belief the acts are legal, and the view of the target as criminal, evil, or deserving of punishment.~41 Some persons resist engaging in brutality regardless of the sanctions threatened by an authority figure.

<snip>