AP-GfK polls show Obama losing independents

[Bluebear]

3 months to go...what can be done to turn this around?

===

President Barack Obama's call for change in 2008 are ready for a shift again, and that's worrisome news for Democrats.

Only 32 percent of those citing no allegiance to either major party say they want Democrats to keep control of Congress in this November's elections, according to combined results of recent Associated Press-GfK polls. That's way down from the 52 percent of independents who backed Obama over Republican Sen. John McCain two years ago, and the 49 percent to 41 percent edge by which they preferred Democratic candidates for the House in that election, according to exit polls of voters.

Independents voice especially strong concerns about the economy, with 9 in 10 calling it a top problem and no other issue coming close, the analysis of the AP-GfK polls shows. While Democrats and Republicans rank the economy the No. 1 problem in similar numbers, they are nearly as worried about their No. 2 issues, health care for Democrats and terrorism for Republicans.

Ominously for Democrats, independents trust Republicans more on the economy by a modest but telling 42 percent to 36 percent. That's bad news for the party that controls the White House and Congress at a time of near 10 percent unemployment and the slow economic recovery.

"People are just struggling, they need a job but there's nowhere to get a job," said independent Leilani Buxman, 55, of Greeley, Colo. Of Obama, she said, "It seems like he talks but he doesn't do anything about it."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100815/ap_on_el_ge/us_ap_poll_defecting_independents

[Skip Intro]

1. And we bounce from one party to another, and things just seem to get worse.

I really wonder sometimes if it hasn't all become some elaborate charade.

[Bluebear]

2. Can't say that theory doesn't make sense. nt

[asdjrocky]

65. It's the good copping bad copping of America. nt

[Foo Fighter]

194. Exactly.

No question. And with Dems in control of Congress and the White House while rightwing bills get passed left and right, the facade has worn away. People are finally waking up.

Or at least I hope they are. If not, we are truly fucked.

[Le Taz Hot]

209. And the realization dawns . . .

[NJmaverick]

3. "what can be done to turn this around"

Step 1- The "professional left" needs to stop undermining the Dems and the President

[Vincardog]

4. What can be done to turn this around: Step 1: The Dems and the President can start working with

the 'Professional Left" and the Majority of Americans to curb unrestrained Corporate Power.

[villager]

5. +1

n/t

[havocmom]

6. Yep, dancing with everybody but those who 'brung 'im doesn't help

But getting out of our bus and thumbing his nose REALLY doesn't help.

[NJmaverick]

10. Are you referring to independents who were a major factor in President Obama's election?

[havocmom]

16. You're cute

:*

But most of us aren't as stupid as you hope.

[NJmaverick]

23. lol

[Kahuna]

61. Nice snark. Now please respond to the post. Should the president

abandon those who brought him to the dance, including the independents and moderate republicans??? The truth is, no candidate can win in this country without independents. That's just a fact that the "professional left" wants to ignore.

[DireStrike]

If independents like president Obama less than candidate Obama...

Candidate Obama made lots of (solidly left wing) promises. Independents liked this person.

President Obama has done hardly anything candidate Obama promised. Independents don't like this person.

This is really difficult to interpret wrong...

[Zenlitened]

159. Ding. - n/t

[laughingliberal]

176. I don't think any of then can win independents and moderates who are broke and don't have a job.

What the right of center Demomcrats ignored is that instituting some of the more left of center policies the left advocated would have been a lot more effective and we would be in better shape for the midterms. Do people really care if the policy is from 'the left' if they wind up with a job and can stop worrying about feeding their families?

[havocmom]

229. How many of those you name actually hit the pavement and worked asses off?

:*

[Kahuna]

57. But but but but...the one's who brought him to the dance.... Yes, Grasshopper..

Many voters other than "progressives" brought him to the dance. Apparently he is trying to govern FOR all of those indies and even the republicans that brought him to the dance. The "professional left" would have him forget about them.

[defendandprotect]

161. An overwhelming vote for Obama and single payer/Medicare for all --

it's up to the DLC and Obama to explain their failure to side with the public

vs the corporations/health care industry -- !!

[NJmaverick]

9. Do you think pandering to the "professional left" will win over independents?

[Vincardog]

14. When the "professional left" has been RIGHT on EVERY point of contention, well YES

[NJmaverick]

29. IF they were right, I would agree with you. Since they most certainly haven't been

I have to strongly disagree.

[Vincardog]

59. Please provide me a list of where the Professional Left was WRONG.

[NJmaverick]

84. They were wrong about Bush = Obama

they were wrong (as shown by the reduction in medical care costs) about the HCR bill being useless or a corporate sell out

they were wrong that the economic measures the President and the Dems took was destined to fail

they were wrong about the auto bailouts (which saved scores of union jobs)

they were wrong to claim the Iraq was isn't coming to an end

they were wrong about the President's handling of the Gulf Oil Spill crisis

they are wrong to claim that the President has done nothing


that's just off the top of my head

[Vincardog]

118. They were correct about Bush = Obama in too many POLICIES

they were right about the HCR bill being a corporate sell out and a LONG way from the Single Payer he campaigned on.

they were right that the economic measures the President and the Dems took were too little too tax heavy did not do enough.

Who said progressives opposed the auto bailouts? Progressives want this country to have a sane manufacturing policy.

they were right to claim the Iraq was isn't coming to end SOON ENOUGH. This is BUSH's deal for the extension of his POLICY in IRAQ.

What exactly do you claim their position on the President's handling of the Gulf Oil Spill crisis?

they are right to claim that the President has done way too little on the issues he campaigned on (IE ending DADT, Transparency, changing the way DC works)


that's just off the top of my head What else you got?


Remember talk about specific Policies and positions not RW sound bite generalities.

[DireStrike]

160. point by point

they were wrong (as shown by the reduction in medical care costs) about the HCR bill being useless or a corporate sell out

This is why peoples' insurance premiums and so forth are skyrocketing? It is still too soon to see all the effects at any rate.

they were wrong that the economic measures the President and the Dems took was destined to fail

"Too weak" does not equal "destined to fail".

they were wrong about the auto bailouts (which saved scores of union jobs)

Many supported the general idea of bailouts but not the manner in which the whole thing was carried out, ie. asking labor to pay for management's mistakes, pretending that labor hasn't been sacrificing, not supporting labor aggressively enough and refuting the right's lies in the fight.

they were wrong to claim the Iraq was isn't coming to an end

This claim is occasionally made, hysterically. The more accurate claim for you to argue against would be that it is not coming to an end FAST ENOUGH.

they were wrong about the President's handling of the Gulf Oil Spill crisis

Debatable. Extremely debatable.

they are wrong to claim that the President has done nothing

Well yeah, if anybody says that you can give 'em a smack. Whether he has done anything SIGNIFICANTLY HELPFUL, or at least without needless capitulation to right-wing "demands" is a different question.

[flamingdem]

227. +10000

[olegramps]

213. How about listing something to support your "opinions."

[Blue_In_AK]

32. Do you think all "Independents" are right of center?

That's not true at all. I have many registered independent or nondeclared friends up here who are far, far to the left of the Democratic party. That's why they haven't joined.

[NJmaverick]

40. No, the majority of independents are moderates. The rest are split between the right and the left

[Blue_In_AK]

45. Maybe in New Jersey.

I'm not going to argue with you because your mind is set. I'm only going by my personal experience, which is the independents I know are to the left of the current Democratic party.

[NJmaverick]

47. Personal experience is not as useful as polls

your small sampling of people is not likely to give you a good nationwide representation.

[olegramps]

214. Provide the proof to back up your statements.

[Hello_Kitty]

51. Define moderate.

What are some examples of moderate positions?

[NJmaverick]

80. Moderates tend to hold views that are a mix of positions that one would

call left and right. Moderates are also defined by taking less extreme positions for a particular view. For example some may be against any form of gun control. A moderate would be in favor of gun ownership and some restrictions.

[ThomCat]

41. You're right.

Independent is a catch-all. It includes many lefties in a whole lot of places. This idea that all Independents are centrists is a myth used to justify constantly moving farther to the right.

Why would any Dem want to justify moving farther to the right? Hasn't our party already moved too damned far to the right already?

[Goldstein1984]

64. After 29 years as a Democrat, and 11 years as a Nonpartisan

I decided to register Green Party of Alaska.

I'm far left of Moderate, which I prefer to call "Centrist."

I'm not hovering in the middle, and my vote isn't up for grabs. It goes to the candidates who represent my views, not the ones making the best deals between two corrupted parties.

[NJmaverick]

85. See there's an excellent point, many of the liberals who might be have been independents

sign up with the Green Party

[Goldstein1984]

98. And a lot of Democrats, like I used to be, would still be Democrats

if the party hadn't become the moderate wing of the Republican Party.

I didn't leave the Democratic Party, I followed my moral compass and the party left me.

It was when I read the 2004 Green Party Platform that I realized where real democatic voters had wandered off to.

[NJmaverick]

99. The polls show the President has strong support by the party

and weak support among independents. He is not going to win over independents by moving further to the left.

[Goldstein1984]

111. Obama has to play what he thinks is his strongest card

How abandoning the Left for the Right, or visa versa, works for him only time will tell.

That's the unfortunate thing about the political principle of compromise--we end up with leaders with compromised principles.

[NJmaverick]

114. The right calls him a socialist and oppose all the bills he passed

so I feel pretty strongly that you can't claim he abandoned the left for the right.

[Goldstein1984]

125. The perspective of the Right isn't going to be my standard

Principles are my standard. For example, killing children with Hellfire missiles fired from Predator drones is bad.

Continuing the George Bush II assault on the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendements is bad.

And I was referring to the Left and the Right within the Democratic Party.

[NJmaverick]

129. I think the right has a pretty good idea what they stand for and what they want

[Goldstein1984]

139. Yes, but my actions are governed by what I stand for

not what they stand for.

Voting Democrat because the Republicans suck more isn't working. It's time to abandon a false dichotomy that alternates between minor variations on a Centrist theme that benefits the few at the expense of the many.

When I vote on Tuesdays, I vote in a way that will let me hold my head high when I look in the mirror on Wednesdays.

[Forkboy]

56. I think we need a new drinking game for every time you say "professional Left".

We should all be cocked by 100 posts.

[asdjrocky]

68. It's the slur that just keeps on giving. nt

[Forkboy]

69. After awhile it becomes more a mockery of those using it than those it's targeted at.

;)

[asdjrocky]

71. Funny how that works.

I've been watching people do that to words for years.;)

[NJmaverick]

86. Hmmm... so attacking me personally adds to the debate how?

[Forkboy]

90. Every time you use the phrase you use it as insult.

Save me the victimhood. :eyes:

[NJmaverick]

93. You didn't answer the question. Your post attacked me personally

and didn't in any way shape or form address the topic at hand.

[Forkboy]

96. You know where the alert button is.

If you have a problem with my post don't come to me, go to them.

[flyarm]

205. I wonder how high pay scales go up by posting over and over Professional Liberal?

maybe this is an incentive week????????

Extra Coupons week?

Red tag week??????

[Le Taz Hot]

208. There's gotta be a macro

involved here somewhere.

[readmoreoften]

203. Maybe not,b ut what kind of smacked ass gives up "the professional left" for independents

who vote with their barstools? If he wants to win the independents he should go populist and stop shilling for Goldman Sachs. But, then again, he his allegiances make that kinda difficult...

[flyarm]

204. How the hell has pandering to the right and far right helped him with Indies?

because that is exactly what he has done!

AND HIS POLLS ARE SINKING!

[Recursion]

26. So when you're losing the center, you should move left? NT

[ThomCat]

30. Do you really think the independents are the center?

Almost all of the Independents that I know are Lefties.

[Blue_In_AK]

34. Thank you, ThomCat

I just made the same point upthread.

[Bryn]

141. When I lived in Florida I was a registered Independent

I'm very left! When moved to Arkansas it became "optional", but I'm still on the left. :)

[Recursion]

67. The ones I know definitely aren't lefties

They're mostly homophobes who don't like paying taxes but don't want any benefits cut. i.e., socially to the right of us and fiscally nowhere.

[Blue_In_AK]

83. What I am taking away from these comments

is that "independents" in the East are much different than "independents" in the Northwest.

[nadinbrzezinski]

241. You are very correct

it is regional... and there are different regional differences.

Why "pleasing" independents is not as clear cut as some folks here think it is. I am an Indie, and by all standard political classifications I fall under the category of Social Democrat... (Bernie Sanders for example is one)... so if you decide to reach for indies and assume all indies are right of center... you just left me out.

In the South, for the most part, parties need to trend center right. The South, general statement here, is far more socially conservative than the North East, or the loony West Coast.

And this is also part of the urban vs rural. Why talking of voter universes is important. But true partisans (no matter what party) cannot comprehend this.

[NJmaverick]

105. Many of the "lefties' tend to trade in their independent status

for Green Party affiliation.

[flyarm]

206. WTF are you talking about? That is nonsense, and sure as hell not true in my state!

The majority of indy's in my state are way left of center..but not greens.

[olegramps]

216. Could you provide some documentation to support your claims. I would be appreciated.

Are there any credible surveys that have demonstated the left-right positions of those who claim to be Independents. I was an Independent for my entire voting history until I changed to vote for Obama in the primary which is a requirement in our state. I am a strict supporter of unions and I am convinced that they are the only hope of salvation of the nation. Neither party is protectings the rights of workers and it is time for workers to form a Labor Party that is dedicate to electing representatives that will repeal unfair trade policies that have destroyed American industry.

[YOY]

274. Why Mav! I thought you were one of us! A liberal! Didn't get any more liberal than you!

How could you Mav???

HOW COULD YOU!?!?!?

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:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: WHAT CAN MAKE THIS PAIN OF MAV BETRAYAL GO AWAY???

[TheKentuckian]

115. and how do you satisfy such a logically flawed worldview?

[Recursion]

174. IMO you don't: Rove was correct

Concentrate on getting your base out and depressing the turnout for your opponent.

[TheKentuckian]

177. Yup

[nadinbrzezinski]

247. You think Rove came out with that Jewel?

I will leave it at that. But all that is old, is new again... and sadly now it is BOTH parties using it. I can't wait for the NEW southern strategy, really.

:sarcasm:

[Recursion]

249. I didn't say he invented it. I'd imagine Solon did it back in Athens. NT

[nashville_brook]

120. lots of lefties hold their votes for people who really speak to them.

Obama knew that in the 2008 election and put plenty of lefty mustard on his campaign sandwich -- it was risky, b/c appealing to "our better angels" isn't something the RW (sorry, Centrists), want to hear...but he put that element in there in order to get that luscious lefty vote.

i know plenty of folks who swore they'd never vote again after the whole Clinton betrayal. Obama brought them out.

[ThomCat]

126. Very true.

And now lefties get kicked in the teeth again. :(

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

262. Bush brought them out.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

212. That's true of the Independents that I know, too

I'm talking about the people who actually have made the decision to declare themselves independents, as opposed to low-information voters who have never bothered to declare an ideological orientation, because they vote for the candidate they vaguely "like" or because they believe the media hype about the Democrats being "the far left" counterpart to the Republicans over-the-edge right wingedness.

Those I know in the first group are all former Democrats, who decided that the Dems had sold out on too many issues, so they reserve the right to vote for third parties if they don't like the Dem candidate.

[Zenlitened]

252. That's been my experience, too. Actual, registered independents/nonaffiliated...

... are disillusioned or statement-making liberals who'd formerly been registered Democrats.

Right-wingers who claim to be independent are usually just too embarrassed to admit they're Republicans.

:D

[Lydia Leftcoast]

263. Or they claim to be Libertarians

(or in Oregon, often ARE Libertarians).

[Zenlitened]

266. Oh, yeah. How many Republican acquaintances suddenly became "Libertarians"...

... during the last years of the Bush admin, when it became impossible to deny what a disaster he'd made of EVERYTHING.

These people who, for all the years you'd known them, always voted Republican... always spouted Republican talking points... always made excuses for Republicans' malfeasance and malodorous policies...

Suddenly, they'd all "always" been Libertarians, really.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Vincardog]

62. When moving to the RIGHT gets you declining polls moving LEFT is a reasonable option.

[nashville_brook]

121. amen.

[DireStrike]

155. Obama has moved right since he had the support of those independents

His campaign promises were much further left than anything he's delivered.

If he's losing independents, the only possible reason is that people want what he promised and not what he's done.

[laughingliberal]

180. If you're losing the center and polling shows jobs is their #1 concern,

it would indicate those 'fringe lefty' ideas like some substantial jobs programs last year might have been a good idea.

[nashville_brook]

130. this is so spot on -- everyone is seeing this now. as the classes become more polarized...

it's becoming way more difficult to sell the notion that bailing out the richest 1% is in OUR best interests. people are PISSED about this, and if anyone should be able to make political hay from POPULISM, the dems should. Dems in the House are actually managing this quite well. it's the Senate and the WH that are sitting on their hands when they should be throwing down the gauntlet. and the more their actions clash with their electoral rhetoric...the more we know that they aren't for US. they're for themselves and their campaign cash.

[Vincardog]

134. BINGO got it in one

[laughingliberal]

181. +1000 nt

[Zenlitened]

253. See also...

... from back in January:

...The president also said the same voter anger that swept him into office in 2008 carried Brown into office on a stunning upset victory Tuesday night over heavily favored Democrat Martha Coakley.

"Here's my assessment of not just the vote in Massachusetts, but the mood around the country: the same thing that swept Scott Brown into office swept me into office," the president said in an exclusive interview with ABC News' George Stephanopoulos. "People are angry and they are frustrated. Not just because of what's happened in the last year or two years, but what's happened over the last eight years."

Link:
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Politics/president-obama-scott-brown-massachusetts-victory/story?id=9611222

I also posted this reminder about Pres. Obama's comments yesterday:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x412359

[bvar22]

137. Nailed It....and worth repeating:

"Step 1: The Dems and the President can start working with the 'Professional Left" and the Majority of Americans to curb unrestrained Corporate Power."



"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone

[nashville_brook]

138. it's the system stupid.

that was his overriding campaign message, and that's what brought all the first time voters out...and the lapsed voters. people who'd lost faith in "the system" were ready for "real change."

[geardaddy]

231. +1000

[havocmom]

7. Newsflash: telling righteously indignant people to sit down and shut up ain't working

That old definition of insanity comes to mind

[NJmaverick]

8. You mean where the professional left undermined Al Gore and we got George Bush

and now we are doing it all over again with President Obama and the current Dems?

[Vincardog]

12. Bush the lesser was forced on us by an illegal ruling by the SCOTUS and by stealing 2 elections If

the democratic 'leadership' was not selling out the base he would not have 'won'.

Keep spouting the RW talking points and you make my ignore list.

[NJmaverick]

27. If the professional left had not sold out the Dems it never would have been close enough to steal

as for what exactly is a right wing talking point, I am most certain there is nothing close to that when you SUPPORT the Democratic party

[laughingliberal]

193. I had the distinct impression the M$M was responsible for a lot of Gore's problems.

A horrible smear job on a man who was likely one of the most qualified people to ever run for the office.

That, and I remember feeling very frustrated that the party organization seemed to be offering only lackluster support. I felt, many times, they were throwing the election deliberately.

[Zenlitened]

267. Actually, Gore was also responsible for a lot of Gore's problems.

He has said as much, himself.

(Although Col. Flagg never got the memo, apparently, and prefers to blame it all on commies hiding in the state department. Or maybe under his bed.)

:D

[olegramps]

217. What do you consider to be extreme left.

Universal Health Care?
Fair Taxation of the wealthy?
Curbing the Military-Industrial influence?
Repeal of laws the reward outsourcing.
Repeal of disastrous Free Trade Agreements?
Abandoning wars that are bankrupting the nation?
Financial Reform of Wall Street?
Repeal of astronomical interest rates with usury laws?
Support of Organized Labor in lieu of lip service?



Feel free to add to the list.

[havocmom]

19. SCOTUS didn't do that?

Fancy that.

BEEP
One guess left then we bring on our next contestant

[NJmaverick]

28. Although the professional left will tell you there is no difference in the parties

oddly enough it was ONLY THE REPUBLICAN members of SCOTUS that helped steal the deal for Bush (although in absence of the PF undermining Gore's margin of victory would have protected him).

[saracat]

117. No one undermined Gore. He undermined himself by distancing himself from Clinton

running a lousy campaign andScotus finished the job. If they had spent more money in so called "purple" states, as AZ was then, and sent Clinton, who had carried the state to campaign, Florida's votes wouldn't have mattered.Ig gore had carried his home state, Florida woundn't have mattered. To say otherwise is to indicate a spectatular lack of knowledge of the true facts.
Gore is very different today and held in my higher esteem today then he was in 1999. People forget neith party was thrilled with either candidate. Voters on both sides were unispired.The GOP didn't like Bush and most Dems were listless about voting for Gore.

[havocmom]

232. Having Lieberman on the ticket didn't help him much either.

Still think Gore was not really all that interested in the job. He went through the motions but we didn't see real passion until AFTER bush was sworn in. Broke my heart.

[Zenlitened]

269. I know that, you know that. AL GORE knows that.

Col. Flagg, on the other hand, does not want to acknowledge that.

[laughingliberal]

182. Al Gore got more votes than any Presidential candidate in history up until that time. He won.

Even with the relentless, dishonest smear campaign the corporate owned media ran against him, he got, let me repeat, the largest number of votes of any Presidential candidate in history up to that point. Jeb and Katherine Harris stole the election and the conservatives on the Supreme Court sanctioned the theft. The left, professional or otherwise, had nothing to do with Gore not gaining the Whitehouse. I voted for him and would vote for him again today.

[Le Taz Hot]

211. In what fucked up region of the netherworld

did you get that the left undermined Al Gore? Oh, dude, you are truly truly lost in lockstep land.

[Zenlitened]

270. "Nobody can get the truth out of me because even I don't know what it is...

"Nobody can get the truth out of me because even I don't know what it is. I keep myself in a constant state of utter confusion."

[POAS]

21. Which of the possible Republican Candidates for

President in 2012 do you think the "professional left" will support in favor of four more years of Obama?

Will they, in the "professional left", be satisfied if a Republican is sworn as President in 2013?

[NJmaverick]

25. As a rule the "professional left" is not about supporting anyone

they tend to mostly just complain and undermine.

[POAS]

52. It has been my view that

both the "professional left" and "professional right" earn their "professional" credentials (profit) from controversy. I look for both sides to "support" controversy.

[NJmaverick]

101. Good point

[Vincardog]

54. Taking principled positions on policy and position is "complain and undermine" ?

[POAS]

119. I don't see how those are

mutually exclusive.

Take tea party activists for example. For many the positions they advocate are based on the principles they hold important. They then use the advocacy of those principles to "complain and undermine" against those that would oppose their "principles".

Now I do not agree with the principles held b the tea-party crowd but I can see that many are sincere although misguided.

[Vincardog]

127. OK in YOUR mind opposing policies on principle = "complain and undermine" You so funny

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[NJmaverick]

131. Unreasonable and destructive criticism that will aid the republicans in their quest for power

is hardly a laughing matter

[POAS]

164. Agreed.......n/t

[POAS]

163. That is NOT what I said

You should read it again or ask someone to read it for you and explain it.

Don't expect me to answer nonsense.

[havocmom]

228. Too bad about that straw man blowing up in your face

Can I help you get that stuff out of your eyes?

[POAS]

233. Strawman you say?

Not very forthcoming with an actual opinion of your own in your response. Why would you want to limit yourself to a cliche'? Surely you can add more to the conversation than that.

Oh, you know I forgot another possibility, perhaps you only desire to insult. I should have thought of that to begin with.

Sorry to have bothered you, carry on!

[jaxx]

11. You'd think that would make sense to everyone.

Instead there is the constant beating down of the President and the Democratic Party by those who ought to know better.

[NJmaverick]

you would think this is simple common sense

[jgraz]

191. You would think that. If you had no common sense.

Most people with actual common sense understand that it's the President's job to manage the politics of his party. If Obama is so incompetent at politics that a few posters on the internet can destroy him, then we've got much bigger problems than weak healthcare reform and bankster-approved financial regulation.

[Hello_Kitty]

48. But I thought the Professional Left was small in number and irrelevant.

You guys need to make up your minds!

[NJmaverick]

There's a difference between votes and criticism/attacks

while the professional left offers few votes, their criticism/attacks can still be destructive.

[asdjrocky]

60. Yeah.

Things would be great if it weren't for those pesky liberals.

[NJmaverick]

108. Not liberals (who support the President by overwhelming majorities)

rather the "professional left"

[asdjrocky]

189. Oh, well that's a different thing, isn't it?

Thank you so much oh Lord of the Terms.

[DireStrike]

154. lol.

[jgraz]

190. Seriously? Mr. Harvard Law Review can't stand up to the "professional left"

What the hell? Is this really what you're trying to tell us? That Obama's political strategy is so fragile that a few left-wing bloggers can destroy it?

That's crazy talk. :crazy:

[Greyhound]

244. Consider the source. n/t

[bertman]

236. There is no "professional left", NJmaverick. You are just spouting off more

of Gibbsy's whiny talking points.

Try thinking for yourself sometime, please.

[Zenlitened]

268. If you really, truly wanted to support Pres. Obama...

...you would stop posting entirely, from now until November. Of 2012.

:hi:

[LostInAnomie]

13. Independents and "undecideds" are some of the dumbest people in the political sphere.

They are basically people that have put very little thought into their political views and just wait for political winds to shift to know who to vote for.

[Forkboy]

15. That'll win 'em over!

[LostInAnomie]

55. Meh...

They flow with the zeitgeist and prevailing media coverage. They don't spend much time on DU reading posts.

[Forkboy]

58. I know many Independents right here on DU.

I also know many that are more informed than well over half of DU appears to be.

[LostInAnomie]

72. Well...

... that's not really that lofty of praise in a lot of cases.

I know plenty of people that claim to be independent. They almost all basically break down to republicans that don't want to admit it, nimrods that want to pretend they are above it all, and the completely uninformed.

[Forkboy]

79. I'm in Mass, the ones I know break left, sometimes further left than the Dems.

Most vote Dem, some vote Green.

But regardless, carry on with your disdain. Obama appreciates the help in gaining those votes, I'm sure.

[fogonthelake]

35. everybody is dumb and stupid except the Dems. Got it.

[LostInAnomie]

78. Not everybody.

Most independents though.

[Blue_In_AK]

36. Fail.

That is totally not true.

[LostInAnomie]

66. It is true.

The opinions of "independents" are fickle and shift with the media narratives. They aren't the mooring of American politics that the pundits would have most people believe. They are mostly a bunch of twits waiting to be told how they should vote.

[Blue_In_AK]

81. As I said,

I know many, many Alaskan independents who would take what you've just said as fighting words. What you're implying is that people who don't choose to put an R or a D behind their name are incapable of independent thought. That's just insulting.

[LostInAnomie]

92. Meh...

If they actually stood for anything they would, other than shifting with the wind, they would probably have a D or R behind their name.

[Blue_In_AK]

102. Black and white world, eh?

No shades of gray in your world. You sound like some right-wingers I know.

[LostInAnomie]

112. Nope, just calling it as it is.

Independents stand for nothing. The parties couldn't be more clearly defined. They're stances have the people that make up their parties have been essentially the same for decades. If they honestly can't come to some conclusion between the two, they just aren't that bright.

[saracat]

149. Indies are Indies because they "won't" be told how to vote Party members are

the ones who are TOLD how to vote. The Indies are not the twits. Lockstep voters of any party are the twits. It takes no critical thinking to vote for a letter without thought. The GOP has more twits than the Dems.That is why I am a Democrats but we have twits too.

[LostInAnomie]

152. Indies are indies...

... because they are fickle and shift with the prevailing media narrative, not because they put and great amount of thought into the process.

[saracat]

197. Wow. I hope to God you never have to appeal to the Indies for a vote.

Your messaging skills are lacking to say the least. Come Nov, we need everyones vote and we won't get it by disapraging likely voters or holding them in contempt. Every Democratic candidate I know in several states is targeting Indies. Thank heaven they don't think like this.

[LostInAnomie]

198. Meh...

That's why I come to Democratic Underground and not Independent Underground. I'm not much on kissing the asses of people that can't be bothered to form real political opinions. Just take a look at that article. The independents they polled trust Republicans more with the economy. REPUBLICANS! Independents think the people that destroyed the economy are the ones to save it! They also think Republicans are better on security issues. The same people whose president allowed 9/11 and attacked the wrong country.

Independents base their opinions on nothing but media narratives and their own clueless perceptions. We shouldn't kiss their asses.

[saracat]

199. Wow. Seems like you have a very narrow base that you feel candidates have to appeal to. Have you

ever taken any GOTV traing? Do you know ANYTHING about the various voter universes? Do you know how to calculate the winning numbers? I don't think so. If you did you would know better than this. Or you missed the section on the all important persuadables.

[LostInAnomie]

200. I'm on an internet discussion board.

A discussion board geared toward progressive and democratic users. That affords me the luxury of saying what I think about independents.

[saracat]

201. Okay but you display a shocking lack of knowledge of that voter universe and

many Indies are also members of DU. Many Indies are Liberal. And many of our lurkers are persuadable. As you exercise that luxury I am just pointing out that others than your narrow universe are welcome to read and contribute to this website. I am glad that there are other voices than yours reaching out to Indies.
I hope all the intelligent liberal leaning Indies will vote Democratic in November. I happen to want their vote very much. But then I look at the numbers.

[LostInAnomie]

202. I'm displaying genuine honesty.

Instead of disingenuously paying lip service to independents for "taking their time to decide", I'm saying what I actually think. These aren't people that think things through or stand on principle of any type. They shift with the wind and whatever media narrative is freshest in their mind. Seriously, it's not like anyone that has been paying any kind of attention over the past 20 years doesn't know the difference between the two parties. If we have to actually work to get "left leaning" independents they either aren't that "left leaning" or their not that bright.

We may have to kiss their ass and act like they have well though out stances in real life at election time, but this ain't real life and it ain't election time.

[saracat]

271. Well all I can say is I have been paying attention and devoted my

blood, sweat, and tears to the Democratic Party for over 30 years. And I am having trouble telling them apart on quite a few issues.Education being just one, the War and civil liberties being others. And if I can't explain the difference, how the heck are Indies supposed to? And I have news for you, with the write in ballots in many states the election is almost over, at the least the Primary,is. We are now in GE mode.It most certainly IS election time. And if that is what you " genuinely believe" about Indie Voter, no matter what you say, those voters will pick up on it in RL and you will drive them away.

Twenty years ago my husband, who is one of the most thoughtful and intelligent people I know was an Indie. I persuaded him to join the Democratic Party almost 18 years ago because the Dems were closer to his ideals. He later was ademocratic candidate for office. Now he wonders where the party he joined disappered, as do I .We will GOTV, and both vote Dem and contribute to those candidates we believe in but the Party is certainly not the same and what used to differentiate it from the GOP no longer does and that is a sad fact.

[MadHound]

124. Really? I'm an independent, and I seriously doubt that you're smarter than I am

I also seriously doubt that you have put as much thought, study and research into politics as I have.

But hey, keep insulting people, that'll win them over:rofl:

[LostInAnomie]

146. I'd probably say I am and I have.

If you're coming to a board dedicated to the election of democrats, you probably either aren't as independent or as bright as you think you are.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[MadHound]

158. Well, of the two parties, Democrats tend to be the smarter folks to talk with,

But there are always exceptions to that rule.:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. Partisans never ask WHY...

but keep at it

how to win friends and influence people NOT.

I AM an indie, by the way.

[LostInAnomie]

173. So, as an independent, which Republican positions appeal to you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

239. Again, you are refusing to ask what is driving this ahem

dissatisfaction.

Going after a political base and those who brought you to the dance is not smart politics. Now you doing this... WHO THE FUCK CARES? When the WH is doing this... I got to question what the hell they are thinking.

By the way being indie does not mean having any attraction to the RIGHT of the American VERY NARROW political spectrum. That is not even crossing your mind. And that is part of the problem. NOT all indies are "the mythical centrist."

Do you know what a social democrat is? Look it up if you need to.

[LostInAnomie]

254. Do you really think "social democrats" and other left indies are being talked about in this article?

Or who the media talk about when they mention Independents? That's almost laughable.

Do you think left indies are part of the majority of indies that think republicans will do better with the economy?

Do you think left indies are part of the majority of indies that think republicans will do better with national security?

You being a social democrat might not mean you are attracted to the right, but you sitting out means that you are more comfortable seeing them in power than voting against them.

Either way, it doesn't speak too highly of left or right indies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

255. ALAS THAT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM

But people have tried to explain to you this thing called voter universes.

Have a good day.

You can continue to be lost in anomie... for all I care. You do a very good job in fact. (Yes I know what the term means)

As to the people RUNNING campaigns... will see if they ever wake up and smell the coffee. Government is not about narrow interest groups but BROAD BASED, preferably DEEP coalitions. This includes those you seem to despise, yes those ugly indies, no matter where they lie in the spectrum.

Yes dear, that IS the US Political System...

[LostInAnomie]

256. Sorry, I don't feel the need to kiss the ass of Independents.

They aren't worth it in my mind. Candidates might have to kiss the ass of the clueless indies, but I don't have to. If indies aren't smart enough to see the differences between the parties, or if they have their head up their asses so far that they think they are ideologically superior to either party, they are either deluded or not nearly as bright as they think they are. Voting for, against, abstaining has an effect. If indies can't bear to vote for the candidate that best reflects their values or at least against the one that doesn't, I don't see why I should respect them as a voter.

The indies in the article are idiots. The indies that abstain because candidates aren't ideologically pure enough aren't much better.

[nadinbrzezinski]

261. Thankfully you don't have too

hope that those who do, actually do.

And again, go down to a college, and take a POLI SCI 101 course. You really need it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

257. Oh and one more question

you are ASSuming much, thinking that indies sit these things out. But I am sure you knew that. Or perhaps not.

I expect this though from blind partisans, who do NOT understand the need to ... build wide and preferably DEEP coalitions. THIS IS the US Political system in a nutshell.

Two majority parties that really have 51 parties that have to rebuild cadres EVERY FUCKING election.

And two parties that are losing partisans each cycle. You really cannot think why? Can you?

[LostInAnomie]

258. Yeah, I forgot. Left indies go with the brilliant idea of voting Green.

How'd that work out for you guys in FL in 2000 again? Hooray for ideological purity!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

259. Since I voted for Gore I have no clue what you are talking about

And since I understand the USSC stopped a vote count, that by all other standards showed Gore won, yes that press report that most of you missed... I guess that talking point is just that... a talking point.

But I am a mature voter, that can handle this system and how it actually works. You, on the other hand, cannot. I am going to give you a very serious recommendation... go down to your local college and sign up for a Poli Sci Course. You really need one.

[LostInAnomie]

264. I can understand that candidates have to pay lip service.

That's what they do. I can understand that indies are a little slow on the uptake and would rather throw their votes away (by abstaining or voting third party) than accept reality. That doesn't mean I have to respect the lip service or the indies. And since I'm not planning on running for office I'm free to say so.

I love how deluded people on an online message board can be. Do you honestly think that DU carries enough weight in the political world that it would sway any elections? Talk about needing a PoliSci course. :rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

265. No, but DU is read by interns

which is something that many of your type don't realize.

And you do need a poli sci course, badly.

You really do not understand this little part about COALITION building in US Politics. The other thing you do not understand is the essential weakness of "national" parties, and how they can't message control most of the time.

You really have no clue how the system works... or how much BOTH parties need independents. You despise them. Feel free. But I hope political strategists don't. As is the US has a lousy percentage of people who actually bother to vote, let alone participate. I am in that 20% that is very involved, to your chagrin. And I AM a registered INDIE... and will continue to be for the rest of my life. I am not a partisan, you are.

[Shirleydem]

218. Didn't Obama beat McCain among independents?

?

[LostInAnomie]

225. Yep.

Now, not surprisingly, they've changed their mind. They're a fickle group that shifts with the wind instead of facts.

[Forkboy]

17. This is why all the talk of Obama's strong support among Dems is pointless.

Dems aren't what he was to worry about. Independents will make or break him.

[scheming daemons]

33. Independents are in the center.... which is where Obama needs to move

Those upset that he hasn't been "left" enough are getting it exactly wrong.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

49. Some are, some aren't. Depends on the region in question.

Here in Mass, the Independents I know are to the left of me. Trying to pin them down into any one area on the spectrum is silly, as they're friggin Independents for a reason.

[sendero]

88. Doing stuff that..

... helps nobody isn't working the "center" it is just stupid.

[laughingliberal]

183. The #1 concern of the independents is jobs. How are more center right policies going to do anything

to fix that? RW and centrist economic policy is what put us here.

[girl gone mad]

184. I'm a registered Independent..

and Obama is way too far to the right for my tastes.

Like every single independent I know, I'm mad about the bailouts, the wars, the joblessness, Rubinomics/Reaganomics, human rights and drug policy.

I do not know any independents that want more bailouts for banks, social security cuts, extended wars, VAT taxes, corporate welfare, torture, drug raids, anti-labor trade programs, 'privatization' looting schemes, or any of the other "centrist" bullshit that this administration appears to support.

[Skittles]

188. where the fuck do you think he has been?

certainly NOT on the left

[progressoid]

234. Independent does NOT mean center.

I know of registered independents that are very liberal and a couple that are right of center. Moving more to the center (if that's even possible) wouldn't help him a bit with them.

[VMI Dem]

18. I'm not going to comment on the wisdom of the center-right politics practiced by this admin.

I will say that they are free to govern as they wish.

[RufusTFirefly]

20. Quick! For the sake of bipartisanship, it's time to move even further to the right!!

:sarcasm:

[quiet.american]

22. WHY are people so damn uninformed - re: Buxman's comments.

You want to know what to do about it - put a dent in the constant misinformation, junk and garbage issuing from Fox News and the nationwide networks of right-wing hate radio.

Saving/creating 3,000,000 jobs isn't "doing anything about it"? Building in a jobs component to every applicable piece of legislation and every initiative isn't "doing anything about it"? Building in tax credits at every turn for small jobs to subsidize their hiring isn't "doing anything about it"?

While Republicans vote en masse against every job creation bill, every extension of unemployment insurance, every middle-class tax break that has been championed by the President and brought to the floor by Democratic leadership, Ms. Buxman turns on Fox News and then says stuff like "It seems like he talks but he doesn't do anything about it."

The willful ignorance of so many in this country has reached critical mass.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

222. you hit the nail.....thank you. n/t

[NorthCarolina]

24. What can be done to turn this around? How about

stop listening to the DLC New Dems and adopt a Progressive agenda.

[scheming daemons]

31. guess what... the "independents" are largely centrists

Not the left "base".


All this angst over the left being pissed..... where Obama is losing ground is in the CENTER.



Now you know why he goes out of his way to look centrist.

[Blue_In_AK]

38. Not in my experience.

[NJmaverick]

42. True, the rest split out between the right and the left

[Vincardog]

44. centrists by definition don't stand for ANYTHING

[NJmaverick]

46. That would be incorrect

cen·trist (sntrst)
n.
One who takes a position in the political center; a moderate.
adj.
Marked by or adhering to a moderate political view: "The deep pool of centrist opinion in the country, that essential guarantee against violent political upheavals, is being dangerously shaken" (New York Times).

[Vincardog]

50. You are so cute. What exactly do 'centrists' stand FOR? What do they want to enact or outlaw?

Be specific.

[asdjrocky]

70. I'll answer.

Winning elections, that's about it.

[Vincardog]

75. So all these "moderate' and 'centrist' worshiping threads are about Party over POLICY? That is

what got OBAMA his LOW ratings in the first place.

[Vincardog]

76. So all these "moderate' and 'centrist' worshiping threads are about Party over POLICY? That is

what got OBAMA his LOW ratings in the first place.

[asdjrocky]

145. That's a BINGO!

[NJmaverick]

77. Standing for moderate positions does not mean one stands for nothing

you are suggesting that only extreme positions are ones that one stands for and that would be incorrect.

[Vincardog]

87. NAME ONE of those positions. JOBS for Americans? AKA renegotiating NAFTA CAFTA et al? Reigning in

excessive Corporate power? AKA nominating real progressives to the SCOTUS?
REGULATING WALL STREET?
Eliminating the corporate control of our elections? AKA public financing of elections and Paper ballots hand counts?
Respect for the environment?
Funding a decent public eduction for everyone?

Your turn: NAME ONE

[NJmaverick]

91. Moderates stand for jobs for Americans, they stand for low crime and national security

There's three I could name many more.

[Vincardog]

95. GO on name one policy.Are the 'moderates' demanding the renegotiation of NAFTA?

[NJmaverick]

97. Moderates favor the policy of progressive income tax, they favor moderate gun laws

That's two

[Vincardog]

106. ONE MORE TIME NAME A POLICY not a position, Do they want to return to the pre RAYgun tax rates?

What is their stand on the Brady bill?

[NJmaverick]

110. The moderates "policy" is to weigh each issue on its own merits

rather than viewing each issue through an ideological lens.

[Vincardog]

122. Again you admit they stand FOR NOTHING. If you refuse to take a position how can you expect people t

move toward that position?

[NJmaverick]

128. Declare what you want to declare

You're still wrong, but no amount of facts or reason appear to be able to change your position

[Vincardog]

132. Oh? You have been presenting me with facts and reason? By repeating worn out slogans? What exact

position of mine are you trying to change?

[laughingliberal]

185. The polling is showing the independents'#1 issue is jobs, right now and nothing else comes close.

Center right economic policy is not going to fix the jobs situation. Center right economic policy is why we there aren't enough jobs now.

[Odin2005]

109. That is nonsense.

Independents, by definition, are a diverse lot, ranging from progressives to libertarians to teabaggers. The notion that Independent = Centrist is MSM propaganda shit.

[geardaddy]

240. Bingo.

[flamingdem]

230. yes indeed nt

[quinnox]

37. That is what happens when you seem to be a wimpy and weak president

It's hard to respect a president who isn't bold or strong in leadership, it doesn't matter if you are independent or on the left, wimpiness doesn't cut it.

[B Calm]

39. So Independents want to vote back in the party that created the mess.

Sounds like strong logic, with no common sense!

[Kahuna]

63. Maybe so. But it is what it is. You're talking about voters who let bushco in TWICE. nt

[B Calm]

74. I thought Supreme Court decided the first election. The second election

was proved to been rigged also.

[Ramulux]

53. I hate independents

Jesus christ, either get a fucking opinion or stop voting. These easily influenced dumbasses have been fucking up our elections for decades. Elections are so simple, do you want republicans who seem to enjoy destroying our economy or dems that are too weak to to make significant change when they have the chance.

I am so sick of people who dont understand our political system and have no actual opinions deciding the future of this country.

[Blue_In_AK]

89. So what you're saying is unless you're a Republican or a Democrat

you have no opinion. Nice.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_In_AK]

116. I hear you.

You do have to wonder about their motives sometimes. In my experience, browbeating, as some do, seldom results in the desired effect.

Maybe it's just best to stay away from here.

[saracat]

150. Bravo Forkboy, This needed to be said!

[QC]

170. It is interesting but must never be discussed! n/t

[Forkboy]

172. The truth hurt someone enough to send them running to the mods.

:crazy:

[Le Taz Hot]

210. It's conditioned response from them

whenever they see one of my posts. "It's LTH, ALERT! ALERT! ALERT! ALERT!!"

[laughingliberal]

192. Yes. I find myself reading some of the hostile talking points by some 'supporters' of the

President and reminding myself that they are not neccessarily reflective of him.

As often as I have policy differences with President Obama, I do not find him obnoxious. It is important for me to guard against letting my anger at the nastier supporters translate into more anger than is warranted for the President. It's funny, I have often wondered at these tactics. They, obviously, will not win hearts and minds and I ponder whether that is the intent of some of them.

[fogonthelake]

207. Nicely said. I find myself in the same boat many times.

[Jamastiene]

251. That's the point I attempted to make a long time ago.

It is so true. Obama, himself, is not rude or obnoxious. Why do some feel the need to be rude and obnoxious in his name? Anyone who knows about selling ideas and getting people to buy knows you don't misrepresent those ideas with rudeness and nastiness.

[nashville_brook]

123. AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH!!

damn, that's on the money.

[DirkGently]

133. Tada. Well said.

[JohnnyLib2]

140. Amen to that!

Sometimes the booster club is so rambunctious that my view of the team is blurry....

[saracat]

151. +1000 Bravo!

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ramulux]

103. No

I am saying that people who dont have political opinions and just vote according to whatever false political narrative has been presented to them are dumbasses. I could give a fuck if you consider yourself a republican or democrat its about ideology or lack thereof.

[bvar22]

142. What happens when neither Political Party represents your ideology.

For instance:

"In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

*The right of every family to a decent home;

*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

*The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.--FDR

Those are my political values, my "ideology".
These values are increasingly unwelcome in today's "New Democrat" Party.
These values are met with hostility by "Centrists" who insist we should abandon values altogether, and adopt allegiance to certain Leaders or Political Parties as the sole guiding value, even when they operate in ways that are contrary to our "Ideals".

[Ramulux]

165. You vote for the lesser of two evils

and then try to get rid of the shitty corporatists in the primary. It sucks, but thats reality. As much as it pains me to say this, the democratic party is our only hope of getting anything done ever. Maybe one day we can get enough democrats in congress who share your beliefs, but without campaign finance reform its unlikely to happen.

[Bryn]

143. In Arkansas nearly everyone is Independent!

approx.90% are registered voters with just "optional" on cards.

[Blue_In_AK]

238. Alaska is like that, too.

We have a reputation as being a Republican state, and Republicans tend to win here (but only because most of the Democrats have been browbeaten into submission) but the truth is that the vast majority of people are undeclared.

[krabigirl]

157. wow..lol sorry I am not sure how to respond to this.

[Ramulux]

166. Why?

You like having people with no real political opinions who are easily swayed by bullshit political narratives, deciding elections? I am not talking about people who just dont identify with a party, I am talking about people who are barely engaged in the political process and base their votes on whatever the mainstream press has decided is important.

[girl gone mad]

186. I think what you mean is that you hate "centrists".

Independents tend to have strong opinions on the issues.

"Centrists" are the people who have no opinions and just go whichever way the wind is blowing (or, more often, whichever way the lobbyists point them).

[xchrom]

73. Independents thought they were going to get a break from right leaning politics..

They were pretty strongly willing to give it a try.

Instead they got the muddled, weak procorporate
Center that's been beating them down.
They know it - and unlike committed progressives
They WILLvote to throw the bums out.

IMHO.

[laughingliberal]

178. +1 nt

[kentuck]

82. Maybe he can remember how he got their support..?

in the first place?

[Dawson Leery]

104. So they would rather go back to the policies

that brought us here in the first place? :wtf:
In this case, shouldn't they be sitting this one out?

[nashville_brook]

113. important stuff, Bluebear. thanks for posting...

like Ms. Buxman says, the people need something more than talk, on the economy especially.

[TheDebbieDee]

135. Is it possible that these " independents" have become Democrats, instead?

[bluestateguy]

136. A matter for concern, but not panic

If he has a 49% overall rating then he just needs to win over a small number of independents to be in good shape again.

[Robbins]

144. Independents

They deserve what they are going to get by voting Republicans back In Power In Congress.Republicans will do nothing to help repair
the economy and create Jobs.They will resume the push for tas Cuts and deregulation.And try to repeal anything Obama has gotten through congress like Health care reform stimulas and Financial reform.The whole country will be In worse shape because of their fickle attitude since Obama hasn't magicly fixed everything Immedetly.Yet they keep Bush with a Republican congresss for 6 years.

[Forkboy]

147. If we piss on people whose votes we need then we deserve what we're going to get as well.

[LostInAnomie]

148. If they aren't bright enough to know what they get when they vote for Republicans...

... should we really lower ourselves to kissing their asses to get their votes?

[Forkboy]

156. Considering that if they get Repubs so do we, yes.

[LostInAnomie]

167. Here's the kind of brain trust you are dealing with when you pander to independents...

... from the article:

"Ominously for Democrats, independents trust Republicans more on the economy by a modest but telling 42 percent to 36 percent."

They trust the party that wrecked the economy in the first place and think they would to a better job.

"Independents trust Republicans far more than Democrats for handling national security"

Really!? They trust the party whose president let the worst terrorist attack in American history happen and attacked the wrong country more with national security.

Or, what about this jewel of wisdom: ""Why not stop bickering and do something. Pull together," said Chip A. Hoeye, 54, of Fort Atkinson, Wis., an independent and Obama voter who says he doesn't care which party controls Congress because of their constant battling."

So he hasn't been paying enough attention to see that it's not democrats that are holding things up.

The problem with independents is that facts don't matter to them. They vote based on feeling. They're the idiots that vote for who they want to have a beer with. You can argue facts with them until you are blue in the face but it won't to any good.

[Forkboy]

168. No one said you had to like them.

But if you want their votes you don't have to go out of your way insult them either. And people say the left likes to cut off it's nose to spite it's face.


It comes down to two questions...

1) Do you think Obama needs the votes of Independents?

2) If so, are insults the best approach to garnering those votes?

[LostInAnomie]

196. Apparently the way to woo independents...

... is to have media create a completely baseless narrative that they will then proceed to gobble up and claim as the gospel.

Actual policies have little or no effect on their opinions. Party positions have no effect. Actual facts do nothing to sway them. The only thing that moves them is a their half formed ideas of how the world works, their general impression of well being, and the media zeitgeist.

[Political Tiger]

169. "Obama losing independents....3 months to go"

I didn't realize Obama was up for election in three months?

Oh wait! I get it! IT'S ALL OBAMA'S FAULT! :crazy:

[depakid]

171. Obama's the leader of the party

and his administration's negligence and miscalculations affect Democrats up and down the tickets.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

195. Awesome point. God knows Clinton's numbers were irrelevant in 1994.

[Bluebear]

220. :)

[saltpoint]

175. Perhaps disgruntled independents will thrill to the

idea of one of the Republican hopefuls in 2012.

Good luck with that project, by the way.

[nc4bo]

179. Take the new OFA survey (linky inside) - seems they're asking for opinions on a variety of issues...

http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/OFASurvey

Share Your Feedback

We're building this movement from the bottom up because change this big can't happen any other way. And as a grassroots organization, it's essential that we hear from you.

Can you take a second to share your feedback -- including what's working now and what we could be doing better?

Seems there are some of our hot topics listed there, some noticeably absent too:

How important would you rate the following issues? 1-5 with 1 being "Least Important" and 5 being "Most Important"

Job creation and strengthening the economy
Health insurance reform
Clean energy
Education reform
Wall Street reform
Immigration reform
Success in the 2010 midterm elections

There's also an "other" text box where you can feel free to vent your spleen.

I noticed they're still referring to health INSURANCE reform and absolutely nothing about equal rights for our LGBT brothers and sisters, Election Reform or our endless warring. x(

Take the survey but I'm not too sure at this point whether you should define yourself as progressive or very progressive. Looking at the survey questions, it looks like they're taking our political temperature. Who knows.

[laughingliberal]

187. Now that we've had that interlude of blaming the "professional left" we can look at what the polls..

actually showed. What is that? Jobs and the economy are the top concerns of independents right now. Funny, that's pretty much the top concerns of the left right now, too. And has the left, professional and otherwise not been screaming for jobs' programs for 2 years, now? And if our legislators and President had stood up to the RW deficit hawks and gotten some jobs' programs going in time to be showing results now, would that not have helped this situation? Why, yes. I think it would have.

The crux of pragmatism is NOT compromising just to say you got some bills passed. The crux of pragmatism, if your goal is to win the votes of independents, is to recognize they don't care if an idea comes from the right or the left so long as it works. And how do they know if it worked? Results they can see in their life. Telling them we saw growth in GDP last quarter isn't going to do it if they are still worried about losing their home and can't find a job or have a job that pays 30% less than the one they had 3 years ago. That's pragmatic. Finding solutions that produce results people perceive in their own lives.

[Spheric]

215. +1 /nt

[fogonthelake]

219. Thanks.

[Greyhound]

245. No, no, no, you just don't understand, all of us must bow to the obvious superiority of

the 35th level multi-dimensional chess master and his grand plan to secure the glorious future of his faithful followers (like his bankster pals).
:rofl: :thumbsup:

[ProfessionalLeftist]

221. How can people be so utterly stupid? It's the RepubliCONs and Wall St.

that got is unto this mess.

Do they really think there'll be more jobs if Republicans are in power? :rofl:

ASTOUNDING ignorance.

[BootinUp]

223. I am going to say something simply outrageous

maybe if more of the professional lefties helped support Obama's message it would help a little, instead of tearing him down, calling for politically unrealistic goals that are more dependent on the legislature than the whitehouse.

Come and get me! lol.

[Blue_In_AK]

235. Obama's "message" is fine.

That's how he got elected. What we "professional lefties" want is actions to back up the message.

[laughingliberal]

242. Maybe if Obama supported more of the programs advocated by the professional left, more jobs would...

have been created and the independents who see jobs and the economy as their #1 concern wouln't be turning away from him.

[gulliver]

224. More Ed Rendell calling the Republicans on their sabotage.

The Republicans drove the economy into the ditch and worked to sabotage the tow truck that came to get the car back on the road. All we have to do to get Independents is make sure they know the Republicans deliberately tried to stand in the way of economic improvement and had political gain as their motive.

[book_worm]

226. Some independents are just plain dumb, like Leilani Buxman in the final paragraph

"he just talks but doesn't do anything about it" but has she noticed that the republicans are sabatoging Obama at every step of the way?

[Bluebear]

248. Just guessing that calling her "dumb" isn't going to woo her vote.

[bertman]

237. Rec. nt

[earth mom]

243. You can't throw people and the things you promised them under the bus

and expect them to support you later.

[Greyhound]

250. And yet, that's exactly what they do.

Then they get all pouty and whiny when they lose, and try to blame us. It's almost like it was some sort of well-rehearsed performance...
:thumbsup:

[mistertrickster]

246. If Obama doesn't seem to stand for anything, he'll lay down for everything . . .

The Independents don't want a "moderate." They want somebody who stands up and says what he believes, and why, and follows through on it.

[county worker]

260. I read this article this morning. About 3/4 of the way through it says the Dems are leading the

repubs in the polls.

It is bull shit to stir up the masses.

[Bluebear]

273. >It is bull shit to stir up the masses.

[amborin]

272. Indies particularly favored the Public Option in any HCR....